6/30/2010 BoaB: "A Case for Combo"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Red finally needs a good ritual that can be cast on two mana. This is a tier 1 constructed card for sure.
Yay! Dragonstrom can survive one more rotation now that it's lacking Rite of Flame.  
Red finally needs a good ritual that can be cast on two mana. This is a tier 1 constructed card for sure.




Yeah because we have never had anything like This Card before...
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
...and when Timespiral Rotates?
Then it will turn out to have been a safe call by WOTC to print this.

Red finally needs a good ritual that can be cast on two mana. This is a tier 1 constructed card for sure.





Yeah because we have never had anything like This Card before...





Strictly worse than Desperate Ritual, too. But it is cool to have the effect, anyway. It's fun to play your cards earlier than normal.
sorry but no, storm cannot survive on the back of a single ritual and a soon to leave lotus bloom. i think it would have been better to incorporate the ritual in a different kind of deck, specially seeing as how those decks are very much dead now. i'm much happier when you go the spike way, just remaking some old decks kind of takes away the fun out of the article. 

would have been great to see a deck based around one of the titans 
Or i could drop an elf or bird turn 1......
Nice to see some combo pieces back in standard, but it will take a combo with going for to really get the archetype back into the mix.
By golly, they're almost trying!



...almost.

First Boab article dedicated to extended in months. I guess when they give you a preview card that doesn't work well in standard this is what happens. Without storm a turn 1 Bop or llanowar elves is almost always going to be better than this for enabling combos. I guess desperate ritual, and pretty much every ritual printed to date were just too good so now we have the worst ritual in history.

Don't be too smart to have fun
Oh nice, a strictly worse Desperate Ritual.  Well, at least we know that the spells aren't having the same power creep as creatures.
The art makes this strictly better than Desperate Ritual.
I'm happy to see another option for Extended and Classic, but this is going nowhere in Limited.

Or i could drop an elf or bird turn 1......



Acceleration that your opponent can counter with Lightning Bolt are not that great.
I'm happy to see another option for Extended and Classic, but this is going nowhere in Limited.

Or i could drop an elf or bird turn 1......




Acceleration that your opponent can counter with Lightning Bolt are not that great.



Acceleration that your opponent can counter with negate isn´t that great either..

you see, a moot point.

R is already running our of steam too fast in standard, with Firewalker, 4 toughness walls and Baneslayers turning the game around everywhere you go.

Unless we get some good 3-4 costed Red BOMBS for constructed, this will see NO PLAY.
Personaly, I find it quite natural that this card got printed. It really feels like the true fixed Dark Ritual, in the correct place in the color wheel and with the correct mana cost, without the rarely useful, unprintable-in-core-sets Arcane mechanic of Desperate Ritual. It's not very impressive, but I'm confident that it will find a place.

It kinda is a shame that Time Spiral block, which on its lonesome gives Pyretic Ritual so much usefulness, rotates so fast, but oh well. After that, the only remaining true combo deck I can think of will be Scapeshift, which is good and on the other hand not too hard to fight (especially for the Faerie Boogeyman), but some more variety in combo would have been nice. We'll see what comes next.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
Personaly, I find it quite natural that this card got printed. It really feels like the true fixed Dark Ritual, in the correct place in the color wheel and with the correct mana cost, without the rarely useful, unprintable-in-core-sets Arcane mechanic of Desperate Ritual. It's not very impressive, but I'm confident that it will find a place.

It kinda is a shame that Time Spiral block, which on its lonesome gives Pyretic Ritual so much usefulness, rotates so fast, but oh well. After that, the only remaining true combo deck I can think of will be Scapeshift, which is good and on the other hand not too hard to fight (especially for the Faerie Boogeyman), but some more variety in combo would have been nice. We'll see what comes next.



It would not have overpowered this card to give it scry 1 since scry is in the current set. The fact that you could splice desperate ritual onto another one meant that you really didn't need any other arcane spells in the deck to give it that extra usefulness. In my version of the lava spike/izzet guildmage/desperate ritual deck I played a couple of blaze because there were many games where I just couldn't stick a creature and I could just cast the lava spike's I drew and then when I hit 6 mana with 2-3 desperate ritual in hand I could usually blaze for the win.

If you're looking for a "fixed" dark ritual look no further than coldsnap's rite of flame. They are both 1 cmc. rite of flame was never overpowered. All in red is the deck that best utilized both rite of flame and desperate ritual and that deck was not overpowered. My conclusion is that pyretic ritual is too underpowered to be a "fixed" anything. This is a card that needs fixing.
Don't be too smart to have fun
you must really feel bad as you had to review that awful card. you try really hard but everybody knows the card is crap
The obvious problems are that they apparently think we're idiots and forgot all about Desperate Ritual (wasn't Arcane/Splice supposed to imply a penalty?), and that this isn't even close to enough to get R&D's overt nudge towards 'big red' off the ground.

Seething Song would have been much better than a weak Kamigawa card made weaker.
My guess is they're trying to find the line where simple cheap fast mana spells are just barely playable--not good enough to be in most decks or warp the format in the way Dark Ritual did, but good enough to be used in the decks that get extra value out of ritual-type spells. Say, Kiln Fiend combo. Their first attempt was Seething Song, but that tended to be used in non-combo decks to accellerate into fat during its time in Standard; Desperate Ritual was another attempt, and wasn't really all that playable...until it found a deck that really wanted it in Extended. Jackpot!

So they're trying it again with a reprintable version, and if it works they can use it as a new baseline.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

One extra mana one turn earlier.  But three Red!!!

Okay,
Turn 1 forest - elf

Turn 2 Couple of ways to play:  Explore.  Land-land rampant growth or Land Land hellspark elemental.  Let's go with the HellSpark for this example.  Attack for 3.

Turn 3. Play land (4 in play).  Play the Ritual.  Tap the 2 other lands.  Unearth 'sparky.  Cast devestating summons sacrifice the 4 lands.  Cast a kicker Goblin Bushwhacker

Attack with your 2/1, 4/1, 5/1, 5/1 and 2/1 for 18.  Should be lethal. 

Note that with lightning bolt, harrow, rampant growth, various 1/1 elves you could have a steady stream of direct damage to the dome, never get mana-screwed, have plently of access to really agressive weenies PLUS possibly add your own beat sticks to get through midgame. 

nice...god draw....that requires a perfect draw.

Examples like that generally suck in all forms when it comes to trying to justofy magic cards.  Also enjoy playing the ritual in your deck.  Ill laugh when you top deck it over a blocker or burn spell.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
My guess is they're trying to find the line where simple cheap fast mana spells are just barely playable--not good enough to be in most decks or warp the format in the way Dark Ritual did, but good enough to be used in the decks that get extra value out of ritual-type spells. Say, Kiln Fiend combo. Their first attempt was Seething Song, but that tended to be used in non-combo decks to accellerate into fat during its time in Standard; Desperate Ritual was another attempt, and wasn't really all that playable...until it found a deck that really wanted it in Extended. Jackpot!

So they're trying it again with a reprintable version, and if it works they can use it as a new baseline.




What is the problem with using a 1 mana ritual that gives you 2 mana as the baseline. rite of flame "worked" so if they decided to power down rituals why didn't they start there.

The big problem here is that without chrome mox and rite of flame there is no chance of playing this turn 1 which was the big incentive for playing this over birds of paradise. The only other incentive currently in extended is storm, and there is no reason to play this in standard.
Don't be too smart to have fun
The only other thing I can think of is using this to surprise a Mana Leak player... but that comparison only makes this seem worse.
I'm indifferent to this card, but for opposite reasons. It's not that the card is weak, the problem is that the kind of decks it wants to enable aren't truly desirable to have in the format.

A bunch of rituals plus a storm spell is something that has already been done to death and when it actually works the result is one of the most uninteractive decks in the format unless you are playing permission, which is too much of a restraint to justify them. If not, it's all about you drawing the SB anticard and they drawing the SB anti-anticard in the 2nd and 3rd games. That's overall bad for formats.

Even in the absence of Storm spells, the result isn't any good even if the deck in question isn't overpowered. Decks that AiR and Charbelcher are not much more than a lottery with a number of attempts with one less card per each one, leaving the result of the match to more luck than usual.

Basically, these card is an attempt to make its target audience believe they're still listened to even when they're not. It would be far easier to announce that rituals don't really add much to the game and stop printing them entirely.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
What is the problem with using a 1 mana ritual that gives you 2 mana as the baseline. rite of flame "worked" so if they decided to power down rituals why didn't they start there.

Firstly because it's less dangerous; the earlier in the game it can be used, the swingier accelleration becomes. Second, accelleration starting on the second turn is generally better-modeled than accelleration on the first turn, so R&D has a better idea of how to account for it in design. Thirdly because Desperate Ritual was an instant rather than a sorcery and R&D wants an instant, but weren't sure if Rite would be okay as an instant. Fourthly because they want to do the simplest possible implementation, and didn't know whether a Rite of Flame that didn't scale up would be playable enough.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

nice...god draw....that requires a perfect draw.

Examples like that generally suck in all forms when it comes to trying to justofy magic cards.  Also enjoy playing the ritual in your deck.  Ill laugh when you top deck it over a blocker or burn spell.


Actually my example doesn't require any "god-draw". 

I'll set up a 'deck list'. 

8 elves (1 drops)
4 hellspark elementals
4 go-go goblins
4 primevil titans

4 devestating summons
4 lightning bolt
4 harrow
4 rampant growth
 4 forked lightning (the one with reboud)



Congratulations Jake, you made some unoriginal decks using a bad Desperate Ritual instead of a near-identical build with said Desperate. I'm so proud.

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I just love how focused the YMtC community is.
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That's what I love about posting on these forums. Everyone's an expert(except for me).
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really no need to be so bitchy.
58021268 wrote:
@Edacade: Awright kid you go on ahead and do your thing and don't let anyone tell you different y'hear
58335208 wrote:
City of Asymmetrical Beings Land :T:, sacrifice a creature: Destroy target creature with the same converted mana cost as the sacrificed creature.
56957928 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
Might I just interject that making this a meme is the worst idea in magic in my opinion. It is too overpowered. It encourages cheating it in play. Essentially 99/100 times it is cheated in play instead of hardcast. Not only that, but you essentially win when it comes into play.
74943291 wrote:
82512575 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Make five-color hybrid tribal instant with buyback, kicker, cycling, card draw, token production, a steal effect, alternate casting cost and landfall that embodies the love that your mom and I share.
I think you just killed all chances of my card being elegant. Ardency :1mana::symwu::symbr: Tribal Instant - Soldier You may have target opponent gain control of 3 permanents you control rather than pay ~'s mana cost. As an additional cost to cast ~, choose two creatures you control, and sacrifice the rest. If you control a soldier, you can't sacrifice permanents this turn. Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, instead choose 4 creatures. Kicker You get an emblem with "As long as you control both chosen creatures, they have protection from everything." If ~ was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard until end of turn. Cycling :2mana: When you cycle ~, put two 2/2 Soldier creatures onto the battlefield. Would this EVER fit on a card?~
Aside from a few wording mishaps (should say "each chosen creature" because it's not necessarily two) this is nice. Very simple and elegant. I like the alternate cost a lot, and the kicker goes nicely with the sacrifice. However, the cycling seems a bit powerful (4 power and a card for 3? Cycling is supposed be bad. 8/10 EDIT: Just looked up "ardency". Lol.
58347268 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
58325628 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I'm immortalized too as long as no one deletes this post!
But in the shadow of the great one lurked many who sought to partake of his eternal glory.
Since when am I "many"?
You're a whole damn city.
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Ahem.
58021268 wrote:
Vivisect Sorcery As an additional cost to cast Vivisect, sacrifice a creature. Draw three cards. "For the sake of humanity," the surgeon whispered. The knife had never felt heavier in his hand.
I don't think a world that sacrifices so much would want to stop the making of children .
Vivisect =/= vasectomy
Now I just feel silly.
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I read over two hundred webcomics on a regular basis. "Terrible" doesn't even begin to describe me.
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74943291 wrote:
I think that this is the first wizards-community thread that actually made me laugh out loud. Maraxas, I love you.
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58347268 wrote:
batman is a jerk in all of my dreams
mafia is fun so play it
What is the problem with using a 1 mana ritual that gives you 2 mana as the baseline. rite of flame "worked" so if they decided to power down rituals why didn't they start there.



Firstly because it's less dangerous; the earlier in the game it can be used, the swingier accelleration becomes. Second, accelleration starting on the second turn is generally better-modeled than accelleration on the first turn, so R&D has a better idea of how to account for it in design. Thirdly because Desperate Ritual was an instant rather than a sorcery and R&D wants an instant, but weren't sure if Rite would be okay as an instant. Fourthly because they want to do the simplest possible implementation, and didn't know whether a Rite of Flame that didn't scale up would be playable enough.




They didn't know if it would be "playable enough" and they were afraid of it's power level. At least they know that this card is virtually unplayable so totally safe to print at common.


A rite of flame that was an instant but didn't scale up would have been a very simple card to print. It would be the simplest possible implementation and it wouldn't draw comparisons to the original and it wouldn't be "strictly worse". We all know that it wouldn't have been too powerful or out of control in any format. It would have been far less powerful than chrome mox which was never banned in any format.

Don't be too smart to have fun
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