Readying attacks to counter immediate interupts

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So, during our game we encountered reskinned Tower Clay Scouts.  These little lurkers have a nasty ability:

Redirect (immediate interrupt, when targeted by a melee or ranged attack; at-will)The tower clay scout makes an attack against the attacker; +4 vs. Will; the triggering attack targets a creature adjacent to the tower clay scout instead (as chosen by the clay scout).


 


So, after having 2 attack redirected into the face of the fighter, I made the announcement to ready attacks for the beginining of the creature's turn.  Teammates didn't understand until the fighter dropped.  He was saved by an immediate interupt to kill it before the damage.  Now, the DM then said he didn't like the rules lawyering to get around the system.  That it was against RAI.  I claimed that while yes, it is a little annoying, it makes sense thematically.  If you realize something has a defence mechanism in place that it can't use while it's busy, you wait until it's busy.  The session then ended as we killed the last of the lurkers and rather than the normal 20 minutes RP that happens, the DM was quick to exit map tools and leave for the night. 


 


While I can understand the DM's frustration, I've been in that seat before, it seems he was frusturated that his players we're nerfing his creatures, not that we were trying to cheese out.  Also, if he hadn't gotten upset about it, the game would not have slowed down any, as the strategy would have been implememnted and followed as opposed to everyone talking about it for 10 minutes. 


 


So, how does one deal with this situation?  As a player, do I accept the fact that some monsters will simply make me stab myself?  Do I fight for my right to ready actions and play the system?  Is there really a happy middle ground?


 


Also, one of the players was quick to say "It's the DM's game, he makes the rules", something I've often reminded players of while DMing a game.  I said that it's true, he can make any rules he wants, but as a player, I'd like him to just admit the fact he is going against the rules in the book.  It's not as simple as saying the uber build is banned or a certain feat is broken, it's taking the mechincal bits of the system and making an exception.  As a player, I find it unfair that a reasonable solution I've found is being disallowed.  As a DM, I would say that it's a bad ability and shouldn't be used again, or limit it to a recharge power.  


 


I'll be honest, I was annoyed and fely it was handled sloppily.  I'm just curious as to how other people think it should be handled, and if they agree with me or my DM. 


 


Thanks,


Hogar Halftusk

The Ready an Action rules state that the trigger is an action or event, which is unfortunately vague.  In my games, I require that the triggers be something that occurs in game, not something like beginning or end of a turn, since there's no real way for a combatant to determine when that is.  You could set a trigger to make your attack following the Clay Soldier's own attack or movement, figuring that the soldier moves and attacks on its own turn (being "busy," as you say).
I would probably also rule that the trigger for a readied action must be something that the character can observe and not a metagame concept like 'the start of his turn'.  But since that trigger could be 'when this monster I'm next to does anything', the end result is likely the same.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Two things that you may have been unaware of.

1 - The creature can only take one immediate action per round.  If everyone is bashing on it, it can only redirect one attack.

2 - Readied actions are reactions, not interrupts.  Combined with what was said above (you need an action or a trigger, like 'when it attacks', not 'when its turn starts'), that means that you couldn't have saved the fighter by interrupting its attack with a readied action.


So basically, there was already an in-game solution you could have taken to the problem; have everyone club it to death all at once.  Or there was a second solution; it's an attack vs will to redirect, have only characters with high Will defense attack it.  There was no need to use a metagamey tactic against it like readying for the start of its turn.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
So, during our game we encountered reskinned Tower Clay Scouts.  These little lurkers have a nasty ability:

Redirect (immediate interrupt, when  targeted by a melee or ranged attack; at-will)The tower clay scout makes an attack against the  attacker; +4 vs. Will; the triggering attack targets a creature adjacent  to the tower clay scout instead (as chosen by the clay scout).



 



So, after having 2 attack redirected into the face of the fighter, I made the announcement to ready attacks for the beginining of the creature's turn.  Teammates didn't understand until the fighter dropped.  He was saved by an immediate interupt to kill it before the damage.  Now, the DM then said he didn't like the rules lawyering to get around the system.  That it was against RAI.  I claimed that while yes, it is a little annoying, it makes sense thematically.  If you realize something has a defence mechanism in place that it can't use while it's busy, you wait until it's busy.  The session then ended as we killed the last of the lurkers and rather than the normal 20 minutes RP that happens, the DM was quick to exit map tools and leave for the night. 



 



While I can understand the DM's frustration, I've been in that seat before, it seems he was frusturated that his players we're nerfing his creatures, not that we were trying to cheese out.  Also, if he hadn't gotten upset about it, the game would not have slowed down any, as the strategy would have been implememnted and followed as opposed to everyone talking about it for 10 minutes. 



 



So, how does one deal with this situation?  As a player, do I accept the fact that some monsters will simply make me stab myself?  Do I fight for my right to ready actions and play the system?  Is there really a happy middle ground?




One thing to note, readied actions are Immediate Reactions, not Immediate Interrupts. So, you could not have saved the fighter because your readied action would go off after an event and as others have stated 'start of turn' doesn't seem like an appropriate event. Also, the DM may or may not have been aware that you can take Immediate Actions only once per round of combat. So, although that is an obnoxious Lurker ability the proper way to handle it tactics wise is to gang up on the monster because it can only use that ability once between its turns.

Thanks for the responses.  To clarify a few points, the paladin's immediate interupt was Mighty Hew, so it was actually an interupt.  Also, we did discuss the possibility of everyone going at once however, it was a tough fight so even one missed attack plus the damage done to a PC wasn't very attractive. I guess the main problem was that it was a metagame tactic.  The way I visualized it is that when the monster was taking its turn, it was focusing on attacking or maneuvering thus not letting it react to the attack.  For example, say this was a wizard with the shield spell, except way overpowered.  The wizard's turn could be seen as when it is casting a spell, or focusing on maneuvering the battlefield. 

The problem is that the DM, I'm assuming, was watching what he thought was an interesting monster getting nerfed by a lame tactic.  I was having fun because there a problem to be solved and I found away around it.  The other player's didn't have a problem with it until the DM said he didn't like it.  It's a hard matter to call, I guess I'm just interested in how other people feel about it.  Thanks for the replies.

Hogar Halftusk
Thanks for the responses.  To clarify a few points, the paladin's immediate interupt was Mighty Hew, so it was actually an interupt.  Also, we did discuss the possibility of everyone going at once however, it was a tough fight so even one missed attack plus the damage done to a PC wasn't very attractive. I guess the main problem was that it was a metagame tactic.  The way I visualized it is that when the monster was taking its turn, it was focusing on attacking or maneuvering thus not letting it react to the attack.  For example, say this was a wizard with the shield spell, except way overpowered.  The wizard's turn could be seen as when it is casting a spell, or focusing on maneuvering the battlefield.

A nice tactical way to approach that Lurker applying readies actions would be the following. Assuming you have some ranged options, have one PC in close quarters and ready actions for when that PC shifts away from the Lurker. That way your ranged attacks are guaranteed to go off when nobody is adjacent to the Lurker.

Readying actions to creatures' turns to avoid interrupts and opportunity attacks can soon become a **** (if effective raw) tactic. For example a fighter will be unable to stop a HUMONGOUS group of people charging past him if they all ready the charge on the fighter's turn. This is likely something almost every game wants to avoid happening.


I also suspect your GM didn't like your (legal) solution to the problem because it quickly starts to feel cheesy if applied constantly. It can solve a ton of similar problems, and depending on your group it may also easily lead to an arms race. After all, if you used the tactic yesterday, why not use it today too.


This is something that requires a gentleman's pact, to agree not to use said tactics in the game to avoid cheesing the whole game. In return the GM should tune his creatures and encounters in such a way that it is not necessary to use this 'last resort' solution.


A few 'normal' solutions to the problem:


  1. Everyone attack the creature at the same time. He only has one interrupt.

  2. Use blasts and bursts as they can't be redirected

  3. Move everyone away from him and pepper him with ranged attacks and reach attacks

  4. Daze/blind hinder the interrupting somewhat. 

 

The start of someone's turn is NOT a valid trigger. Note in the 'ready an action' section it says 'Choose the action that will trigger your readied action.' The start of a turn is not only not an action in the legal sense of 'action', but in the RP sense, nothing shows up over the NPC's head that says 'this guy's turn now'... it's not something that exists from a character's point of view. The character would have to ready their attack on the NPC actually doing something specific, and then the GM would have the option of just not having that NPC do that thing.


The start of someone's turn is NOT a valid trigger. Note in the 'ready an action' section it says 'Choose the action that will trigger your readied action.' The start of a turn is not only not an action in the legal sense of 'action', but in the RP sense, nothing shows up over the NPC's head that says 'this guy's turn now'... it's not something that exists from a character's point of view. The character would have to ready their attack on the NPC actually doing something specific, and then the GM would have the option of just not having that NPC do that thing.



That would also feel cheesy. I mean, how does a monster know what action the character is readying against. Unless the monster is psychic, or the situation seems really apparent. In normal combat the situation can very easily seem like 'The fighter starts watching you intently, ready to swing his axe'. What will you NOT do ?


 


Readying actions to creatures' turns to avoid interrupts and opportunity attacks can soon become a **** (if effective raw) tactic. For example a fighter will be unable to stop a HUMONGOUS group of people charging past him if they all ready the charge on the fighter's turn. This is likely something almost every game wants to avoid happening.



I also suspect your GM didn't like your (legal) solution to the problem because it quickly starts to feel cheesy if applied constantly. It can solve a ton of similar problems, and depending on your group it may also easily lead to an arms race. After all, if you used the tactic yesterday, why not use it today too.



This is something that requires a gentleman's pact, to agree not to use said tactics in the game to avoid cheesing the whole game. In return the GM should tune his creatures and encounters in such a way that it is not necessary to use this 'last resort' solution.



A few 'normal' solutions to the problem:



  1. Everyone attack the creature at the same time. He only has one interrupt.

  2. Use blasts and bursts as they can't be redirected

  3. Move everyone away from him and pepper him with ranged attacks and reach attacks

  4. Daze/blind hinder the interrupting somewhat. 

 



I agree with this, getting into a readied action war with the DM is a losing proposition.

Given that the turn based mechanism is trying to account for a smooth and flurried combat over 6 seconds, I don't even think readying tricks makes sense RAI. Ready should be for things that have clear conditions, I can see again, an enemy is in range for a counter charge, I have a flank. Denying a fighter his op attacks because the enemies rushed him over one moment in 6 seconds instead of the whole 6 seconds doesn't make too much sense.

I don't use such tactics as a DM and I expect players not to do so as well. After all, the DM has infinite resources compared to the players. No one should take the nuclear option.

That would also feel cheesy. I mean, how does a monster know what action the character is readying against. Unless the monster is psychic, or the situation seems really apparent. In normal combat the situation can very easily seem like 'The fighter starts watching you intently, ready to swing his axe'. What will you NOT do ?



I totally agree. The NPC would know that the fighter was ready to attack when the NPC did something undetermined... Anything with an intelligence over 5 would probably assume that the most likely thing that it would get it attacked would be an aggressive action. On the other hand, the GM could roll a simple chance test to see what it would do (move, attack, etc). Plus, the monsters would know whom the fighter was watching intently, and that if they moved all at once, the fighter could likely only hit one of them. If everyone's watching a different NPC, then you're splitting damage and that's a bad strat anyway. My point, however, is that the start of a turn is not a valid trigger in any sense.

By the way, I am in agreement that readying an action for an NPC's action, and taking an action on their turn, such that they can't respond with immediate actions is thematic (You still can't ready an action on the start of a turn). If you ready your action for when a goblin attacks, then if the goblin attacks, you can attack and they're too busy attacking to do anything about it (no immediate actions for them). On the other hand they may not attack and you've wasted your turn. If you ask me, it's very well balanced AND works perfectly. 



The start of someone's turn is NOT a valid trigger. Note in the 'ready an action' section it says 'Choose the action that will trigger your readied action.' The start of a turn is not only not an action in the legal sense of 'action', but in the RP sense, nothing shows up over the NPC's head that says 'this guy's turn now'... it's not something that exists from a character's point of view. The character would have to ready their attack on the NPC actually doing something specific, and then the GM would have the option of just not having that NPC do that thing.




Note that is also says, elsewhere, that you ready for an action *or event* - and while I agree with you that "start of his turn" or "end of my turn"  or something is not a good choice of "event" to allow, I wouldn't want to try restricting it to straight "action", because of two major things: 

First, that would prohibit "when the moving platform gets close, I jump onto it".
Second, you can still set up a Free Action trigger.  "We all attack when the Fighter says 'now!'".  Okay, the goblins starts his turn, and..." "NOW!"


But yeah.  The Clay Scout thing is mean, but it can only redirect one attack per round, and only to an adjacent target.  Delaying to let the Fighter hit it and Shift away before unloading works, as does the Fighter delaying so that he moves in and attacks *after* all the other attacks land, or simply overloading the bloody thing because it can only dump one attack a round.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
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I think your approach was fine. The clay scout surprised the party a few times when it first did it - DM objective accomplished, really. After that the PCs are going to find a way around that defence, one way or another. No biggie.
From the OP:  "It's the DM's game, he makes the rules"

Any RAW or RAI source for this?  As I understand it, this is 4th edition, not 1st edition.  The DM is one of the players, and is restricted to the rules like everyone else at the table.
From the OP:  "It's the DM's game, he makes the rules"

Any RAW or RAI source for this?  As I understand it, this is 4th edition, not 1st edition.  The DM is one of the players, and is restricted to the rules like everyone else at the table.



It's in the DMG somewhere.  I don't feel like looking it up right now, because frankly, if DMs were restricted to the strict RAW at all times and could never modify any rule, monster, or power, the game would be very different and much worse.

It's only at LFR and other sanctioned events that the DM is restricted by any rule other than 'make the game fun for everyone'.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Something would need to change on the field for the attacks to go off.  An arbitrary "When the monster's turn starts" is too arbitrary and is metagame.  The creature would need to act, whether a move, attack, or some other action.  If the creature decided to delay, the readied actions could be lost.

In game terms, the ranger nocks an arrow and aims it at the target but does not fire (yet).  The fighter raises his axe to swing but doesn't (yet).  The wizard points his wand at the target but doesn't shoot anything (yet).  Could the creature see these events happen and freeze in place to react on what the players are doing?  If the PCs did this once, the monster could be smart enough to use this as an advantage.
Yep - monsters get tactics too. 

Readied actions are very powerful, but they can be negated.  In Knid's example, the delay by the monster has wasted two standard actions of the players.  Buffs and debuffs will have expired, and possibly even marks.

"If the trigger doesn’t occur or you choose to ignore it, you can’t use  your readied action, and you take your next turn as normal."

Don't forget the use of dazes, either by the monsters or the characters.  The dazed condition prohibits the use of immediate actions, so a dazed player, even if he readied the action before he was dazed, cannot use his readied action.




/edited because I forgot some stuff!

So, how does one deal with this situation?  As a player, do I accept the  fact that some monsters will simply make me stab myself?  Do I fight  for my right to ready actions and play the system?  Is there really a  happy middle ground?




As others have noted, full manipulation of the ready action rules will work out negatively for the players.  Monsters are a lot more numerous and PC's have more interrupt/OA actions generally, so the PC's will lose out if everybody starts readying to avoid interrupts and OA's. 

Also, 'playing the system' will generally result in a lot of back and forth discussions and can also turn tough encounters into cakewalks.  This means less fun for most everybody else in the group, so don't do it.
So, during our game we encountered reskinned Tower Clay Scouts.  These little lurkers have a nasty ability:

Redirect (immediate interrupt, when  targeted by a melee or ranged attack; at-will)The tower clay scout makes an attack against the  attacker; +4 vs. Will; the triggering attack targets a creature adjacent  to the tower clay scout instead (as chosen by the clay scout).






Shouldn't the attack made as part of Redirect have triggered combat superiority or divine challenge depending on who had it marked?

It's only at LFR and other sanctioned events that the DM is restricted by any rule other than 'make the game fun for everyone'.



Actually, even LFR gives the DM the driver's seat.  This is from the "Important DM Information section on all of the modules I have.
Make decisions and adjudications that enhance the
fun of the adventure when possible.


The only strict thing about running them is that nobody in the party ends with more gold or XP than intended within the module.  It's also a lot of trust to give, and players are more than welcome to complain if they think things aren't being done fairly.

*On Topic* I agree about the gentlemen's bet suggestion above.  If you've run with this group for some time, just write it off and play fair with eachother.  Let the DM get his surprise in sometimes, then work out a quick strategy.

Actually, even LFR gives the DM the driver's seat.  This is from the "Important DM Information section on all of the modules I have.
Make decisions and adjudications that enhance the
fun of the adventure when possible.



The only strict thing about running them is that nobody in the party ends with more gold or XP than intended within the module.  It's also a lot of trust to give, and players are more than welcome to complain if they think things aren't being done fairly.



Oh, I agree.  I was just saying that while fun is still the main priority for LFR/etc DMs, there are a few other minor rules.

For home DMs, there are literally no other rules.

The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
I was under the impression that you can only have a trigger that you can perceive.
The character has no concept of "turns", so how can he prepare to react to an arbitrary unit of timekeeping of which he is unaware and cannot perceive?
I was under the impression that you can only have a trigger that you can perceive.
The character has no concept of "turns", so how can he prepare to react to an arbitrary unit of timekeeping of which he is unaware and cannot perceive?



So you Ready based on a Free Action, like saying "Now!"

Then, once the arbitrary non-perceptible event has passed, you yell "Now!" and trigger your Readied Action.

"Ready to act on that guy's turn to avoid OA's and Immediates" is a concept that is inherently absurd and leads inevitably to rules problems.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
How do you time a Free Action like saying "Now", though? Do you just talk over the DM? While he's rolling? Isn't the timing of saying "Now" completely under the DM's control?

"I say 'Now!'" "Before you can shout, the stone block falls and seals the corridor."
How do you time a Free Action like saying "Now", though? Do you just talk over the DM? While he's rolling? Isn't the timing of saying "Now" completely under the DM's control?

"I say 'Now!'" "Before you can shout, the stone block falls and seals the corridor."



So you've got a DM abusing his omnipotence to stop you from abusing your ability to trigger Readied actions off Free Actions, and the ability to take Free Actions any time you want.   That's not exactly a *solution* to the problem - that's an escalation.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I came up with a similar tactic against Gnomes and their Fade Away ability.  Just Ready an attack for the Gnome to move or make an attack and then it can't use Fade Away when I hit it, since Fade Away is an immediate reaction and it can't take immediate reactions on it's own turn.

The two guys who normally DM apparently asked around online and determined that this wouldn't work because when I take my readied action, it's technically not the Gnome's turn anymore (it's my turn) and it can use Fade Away. 

Personally, I disagree with that and I think *that's* cheesy.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to wait for the Gnome to do something (my words) and then smack it with my sword and it *not* get to Fade Away in the process.  It's prefectly welcome to *not* move or attack and, in the process, *not* get smacked this round (unless someone else does it.)  If I am keeping it from attacking, I'm doing my job as a defender.  If I am keeping it from attacking *me*, then I'm doing my job as a defender exceptionally well. 
The two guys who normally DM apparently asked around online and determined that this wouldn't work because when I take my readied action, it's technically not the Gnome's turn anymore (it's my turn) and it can use Fade Away. 



Yeah, no, sorry - using that reasoning, there's no reason to ever disallow OAs or IAs on your own turn.


Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I came up with a similar tactic against Gnomes and their Fade Away ability.  Just Ready an attack for the Gnome to move or make an attack and then it can't use Fade Away when I hit it, since Fade Away is an immediate reaction and it can't take immediate reactions on it's own turn.

The two guys who normally DM apparently asked around online and determined that this wouldn't work because when I take my readied action, it's technically not the Gnome's turn anymore (it's my turn) and it can use Fade Away. 

Personally, I disagree with that and I think *that's* cheesy.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to wait for the Gnome to do something (my words) and then smack it with my sword and it *not* get to Fade Away in the process.  It's prefectly welcome to *not* move or attack and, in the process, *not* get smacked this round (unless someone else does it.)  If I am keeping it from attacking, I'm doing my job as a defender.  If I am keeping it from attacking *me*, then I'm doing my job as a defender exceptionally well. 



While a potentially good idea for avoiding Fade Away, it might cause a little bit of an escalation or irritation on the DM's part. Don't be surprised if you get handed something even more irritating later on.


And besides, a readied action is a reaction. Thus you can't ready an attack on a move/shift effectively. If the monster moves or shifts away, he will be out of reach when your reaction triggers and you can't attack him.


While a 'good' strategy, it is likely to backfire on you and your party. Depending on your people of course. I would not try it.



It's cheesy and can be countered by DM doing the same sort of things or just changing the monster power to be a free action or something. It's not like the players do not have vast amounts of options relative to a monster anyways. 
 
Well, working from non-cheese within the rules:

1) The Scout only gets one Immediate Interrupt a round, so it can only redirect one attack a round.  This also means it *cannot* use a Readied Action *and* Redirect in the *same round*.  So if it was throwing all of the party's attacks around every which way you need to have a talk with the DM.  If the issue was more that there were a few and each was using Redirect then you need to focus fire one -- a good tactic pretty much any time anyways.  This is easy to figure out and do because the DM does kinda have to tell you what action the enemy is taking.

2) It can only Redirect to a creature adjacent to it.  Ideally, the only character adjacent should be the Defender.  If it only has one option for Redirect try to use attacks which that character is strong against, like AC against a Fighter.  An additional idea would be to ensure that no one ends adjacent to it by shifting away after you attack/mark/whatever in melee but that does allow it to use ranged attacks easily.  Also from the wording of Redirect it can point your own attack back at you.  This may take a bit of figuring out but it should be pretty apparent.  Some DMs will even tell you info like this.

3) It can only redirect Melee or Ranged attacks.  Use Close or Area attacks. Keep it cornered but try to give a wide enough berth so it can be beaten down.  While these things have a ranged Daze (at a much better chance to hit than their melee attack) the damage is *much* lower than what most PCs will be putting out.  The Invisibility to Dazed creatures is a pain but remember that you still know what square it's in *and* that Close and Area attack rolls aren't affected.  This information is pretty much only through trial-and-error, though, so knowing to do this is tricky.

4) The Redirect *is* an attack.  And it's against the *attacker*, not the target of the Redirect.  So if you had a Defender Mark on it and it tried to Redirect an attack from anyone but the Defender then it will suffer.  Pretty apparent and irrefutable: it made an attack so it's at a penalty and you get to smack it.

Overall I hate the "Ready to ignore IIs and IAs" tactic.  It's silly, and though it is a RAW tactical workaround to things like Marks I don't think that, RAI, every creature is supposed to have a way to avoid penalties from such abilities other than following the terms of the Mark or ability.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards." ~ yesnomu "Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless." ~ SanityFaerie
I consider this tactic one to be avoided at all costs, because it can quickly turn the game unfriendly. Does the fighter (saved in this instance by the tactic) want creatures to ready attacks for on his turn, so he can't combat challenge or opportunity attack?

Basically, it's a group agreement to not do it. There's a long errata thread concerning this use of readied actions (as well as other hijinks), but I don't know that I'd expect anything to be fixed soon. A reasonable house rule would be 'When you take a readied action, it counts as your turn' or 'You may take immediate and opportunity actions on your own turn', either of which would fix things. 
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Monsters reading actions for the fighters turn is not an issue, because they can only react to the fighters actions (like move or attack). With the transparancy rule from DMG, the fighter should know which enemy readied which actions. So if he simply does NOT take such an action (like attacking), all enemies lose their standard action.

So the fighter effectively dazed or stunned all enemies, just by not taking or standard/move (or any) action. This usually costs a controller an encouter or daily power, so i would advise DMs not to use this tactic and when i DM, i also dont use it.

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 Why not just get rid of the absurd idea that using immediate interrupts can't happen on your turn. Just house rule that you get only one Immediate Interrupt a round.
Why not just get rid of the absurd idea that using immediate interrupts can't happen on your turn. Just house rule that you get only one Immediate Interrupt a round.



This rule is in place for good reason - to prevent you from creating the trigger for an immediate action on your own turn.
If you only get one immediate action a turn, what's wrong with it being on your turn as opposed to the enemies turn? I meant to say round, you only get one immediate action a round.
How do you time a Free Action like saying "Now", though? Do you just talk over the DM? While he's rolling? Isn't the timing of saying "Now" completely under the DM's control?

"I say 'Now!'" "Before you can shout, the stone block falls and seals the corridor."


So you've got a DM abusing his omnipotence to stop you from abusing your ability to trigger Readied actions off Free Actions, and the ability to take Free Actions any time you want.   That's not exactly a *solution* to the problem - that's an escalation.


Actually, I worded this wrong and entirely forgot to respond or follow up on it.

What I meant was when does the Free Action occur? In what order? Let's say we have three characters, each with a bomb strapped to their chest. If you shout "A", character 1's bomb explodes. Similiarly, B and C triggers the bombs on characters 2 and 3. It's a "cease to exist" bomb, you instantly dissappear with no other effects.

Only one person is allowed to remain. They all shout "A", "B", and "C". Who survives?

Do we determine it in "real time" - whichever players shout first or loudest? That's hardly fair or make for a solid system of mechanics. Especially if one character is a 30 Int, 30 Cha character who (IC'ly) has a rapier wit and a fast thinker, but the player is quiet and slow, while the other is an 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha dullard of a character played by someone who lives on a diet of Red Bull and coffee beans.

Let's also consider the scenario again. The characters all ready to act when "Now" is shouted. The leader shouts "Now" when the monster reaches point X. Yet the module is scripted to seal the room from the monster via a titan sized boot when he reaches point X. Which triggers first? What's the sequence?

I seems obvious to me that, Free Actions themselves have an order in the initiative. Since the one running the chronology is the DM, especially if all the players babble at once... the DM determines if your character is fast enough to shout "Now!" before the shoe drops.
If you only get one immediate action a turn, what's wrong with it being on your turn as opposed to the enemies turn? I meant to say round, you only get one immediate action a round.

There's potential balance problems with that, as you can intentionally trigger OAs for you to trigger interrupts, which tilts things away from OAs.

As an example, some creatures have immediate interrupts towards being attacked in melee. If the monster moves away from a Fighter, who takes the OA, the creature could then use his interrupt and basically screw the Fighter over. Or the monster shifts away and provokes the Challenge, which the monster can then negate.

There's worst CO tricks that I'm sure can be done to supernova.
If you only get one immediate action a turn, what's wrong with it being on your turn as opposed to the enemies turn?



Because on your turn you can force the trigger to occur through your own actions, rather than being a reaction to something the enemy does (or doesn't do).  Just because you have one immediate action available each round doesn't mean you should be guaranteed a chance to use it.
From the OP:  "It's the DM's game, he makes the rules"
Any RAW or RAI source for this?

It's in the DMG somewhere.

-off-topic-
I would've assumed so too, but interestingly from previous discussions on this:  'rule zero' was not actually in the 4e DMG, and we were hard-pressed to find anything similar. Indeed DMG p.12 seems to go against the notion, as does the DMG p.28 ( "Saying Yes"), PHB p.8, and several other DMG sections.

 Why not just get rid of the absurd idea that using immediate interrupts can't happen on your turn. Just house rule that you get only one Immediate Interrupt a round.



Basically, to stop me from creating my own triggers for Interrupts.

Imagine my BowRanger.  She moves to flank you, provoking an OA.  You take it, and she responds with Disruptive Strike:  An Immediate Interrupt with her massive attack bonus, full RBA damage, bonus from prime shot because she's adjacent, and drops a -8 penalty to your OA.  Your OA misses pretty much by definition, she finishes her Move, and then Twin Strikes you with Flanking.  And I gained an extra 30-odd damage against you that round.

You can't take IAs or OAs on your own turn for sensible, sane, rational reasons.  And as a side effect, you get the "I ready to avoid IAs and OAs" problem, which is a problem that *only exists* if abused.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
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