The Neo-Extended Metagame Thread!

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With some pretty big changes ahead of us, I want to get a head start on this new format.

I ran into some problems, though. You can pretty much take any recent Standard deck (and a couple of Extended decks) and try to port it (or get started on new combo decks - Living End says hello), but what should they be tweeked against? Which decks and specific cards are going to require must-answers?

This thread is an attempt to answer those questions. I would like to see takes on a number of archetypes likely to see play in the new format. Studying up on these archetypes - and the cards that will make them tick - will hopefully help everyone fine-tune their decks for the coming Extended season.

Off the top of my head, I think we're looking at, at least, the following decks:

Faeries
Elves
Kithkin
Red Deck Wins
Jund
Naya
Bant
some Cascade -> Suspend deck

...as well as maybe Merfolk, 5cc, Esper and Grixis.


To start this thread off, I'm going to take a shot at Neo Extended RDW:

// Lands
    9 [MI] Mountain (2)
    4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
    4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
    4 [M10] Rootbound Crag
    2 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket

// Creatures
    4 [SHM] Boggart Ram-Gang
    4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
    2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
    4 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge
    1 [PLC] Keldon Marauders
    2 [REL] Figure of Destiny
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    4 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf

// Spells
    4 [SHM] Flame Javelin
    4 [WWK] Searing Blaze
    4 [4E] Lightning Bolt

RDW often lacks a little bit of power in Standard, due to having to play with a couple of cards that aren't quite the bombs a competitive deck needs to compete. It also often falls short in Extended, because, while it gets the cards it needs, the manabases are just too insane for a monocoloured deck to really shine (unless it plays Martyr of Sands, obviously). This may be the perfect format to play this archetype. Whether to splash green for Tarmogoyf and BBE is the best choice or not, I don't know, but with Fetches for Goyf, my guess is that it probably is.

Sideboards are obviously hard to make, so I'm going to list a couple of solid cards against the archetype instead, in following with the spirit of the thread:

Kor Firewalker
Dragon Claw
Primal Command
Doran, the Siege Tower (big dudes in general)
Kitchen Finks
Story Circle
Rhox War-Monk

I hope to see takes on this and other archetypes as we go along.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Here's one for Naya Zoo as well:

// Lands
    4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 [6E] Karplusan Forest
    3 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
    2 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket
    2 [IA] Brushland
    2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
    1 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
    2 [OD] Plains (3)
    2 [BRB] Mountain (7)
    4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Creatures
    4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
    4 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
    4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
   3 [PLC] Keldon Marauders

// Spells
    4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
    2 [ROE] Staggershock
    4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
    4 [CFX] Path to Exile

Complex manabases aren't really my thing, so it could probably use some (read: a lot of) work, but it's there. The large amount of non-basics isn't really an issue, as the deck has plenty of ways to deal with Magus of the Moon and as the deck is too much of an aggro deck to be dominated by Anathemancer - though against other aggro decks, opposing Anathemancers could really make the difference in a race.

This version doesn't run Baneslayers. It does run the Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows package, along with what is basically just a list of great creatures and burn.

The tradeoff, when compared to the RDW above, is the loss of Searing Blaze, Demigod, Magus of the Moon (which, depending on the metagame, could still see play in a list like this) and Flame Javelin, compensated by a mean Ranger package, the previously mentioned Punishing Fire package, Finks and Paths.

Which cards to use against this deck is hard. Baneslayers would be very good, but not unanswerable. Wall of Omens might be a big enough stop sign early. Kitchen Finks are good against decks like this, as is Rhox War-Monk.
Still hoping for others to join in. Cool
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Just look at the top standard decks of the last 4 years.


There ya go.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Just look at the top standard decks of the last 4 years.


There ya go.


Unfortunately, 'Just look at the top standard decks of the last 7 years' didn't really work with the old Extended format, and I'm not sold on it working now. =)

Seriously, though, will a tokens strategy be strong enough in this format? Or will it fall short, like it has traditionally done in Extended, because of its sluggishnes? Likewise about PW control - is it too slow, or will its power merely grow as more PW'ers are printed, and as abilities like Jace2's Brainstorm gets you better cards, Johnny V's Lightning Helix kills more creatures (in this faster format) and Elspeth's tokens holds back Tarmogoyfs and Keldon Marauders? Will something like Esper Control get the tools it needs to be viable? Or will 5cc reign supreme among control decks, even in this faster format?

I think we're looking at a completely new metagame, at least after a little while. Many decks will be very similar, but Faeries won't be as dominant now as it was then (due to cards like Volcanic Fallout and Great Sable Stag more or less killing the deck in the last days it was legal), opening up a lot of space for more midrangish decks like Doran Doran to compete. Likewise, decks like Naya, which has been in the shadow of Jund for a long time (basically being a really good deck that lost to the most popular deck in the format) will get a chance to shine.

Obviously, Jund and Fae will be good decks in this new format. I'm not arguing that (and I would very much like to see takes on new versions of both decks), but Jund will be holding Fae down with previously mentioned cards, and there will be combo decks holding Jund in leash. Plenty of other decks should be able to emerge, even decks that didn't have the proper tools, or had a bad metagame position the first time around.

I, for one, am going to look over my shoulder for Lark combo and the Cascade combo decks that will pop up - and I would very much like everyones help in working out what exactly we should be preparing for.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Theres a big diference between 4 and 7 especially when you consider that in the last 7 years we have had combo decks and card that create combos unlike what you have in lorwyn forward which have all been fairly straight forward control/agro decks.


Also your post pretty much backed mine as all of your examples are top decks of the last few season and they seem to be your main concern.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Theres a big diference between 4  and 7 especially when you consider that in the last 7 years we have had  combo decks and card that create combos unlike what you have in lorwyn  forward which have all been fairly straight forward control/agro decks.


Also  your post pretty much backed mine as all of your examples are top decks  of the last few season and they seem to be your main concern.


Dude... not cool.

I'm trying to do everyone a favour here. I want this new format to be  fun - I want it to inspire discussions as to a new metagame. With this thread, I want to help  people to start thinking about how to counter Jund with their Mystical  Teachings control. I want to help people enjoy discussing the viability  of archetypes, new as old.

What I don't want is this thread derailing into pro-change and  anti-change. I repeat, that is not the purpose of this thread! If that is what you wish to discuss, fine. There are plenty of threads  about that (one of which you started yourself, bughferd, so you should  know). Go there.


God knows, I tried to do this subtly the first time.

...so, anyone want to discuss the new metagame coming up?
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Here's a Fae deck I made:

// Lands
    3 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
    3 [10E] Underground River
    3 [MOR] Mutavault
    4 [FUT] River of Tears
    2 [ROE] Island (3)
    4 [LRW] Secluded Glen
    3 [M10] Drowned Catacomb
    2 [10E] Swamp (3)


// Creatures
    4 [LRW] Scion of Oona
    4 [LRW] Mistbind Clique
    4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
    3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
    3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation


// Spells
    2 [MOR] Negate
    4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
    4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
    4 [LRW] Cryptic Command


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [M10] Essence Scatter
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [M10] Doom Blade
SB: 4 [M10] Duress

Want to know how to keep a moron busy? Reread this sentence to find out!
No Jace2?

I can't decide whether Sower is going to be awesome due to grabbing so powerful cards, or I think it's going to suck due to Lightning Bolt.

I think more MD removal is definitely going to be needed, though - there are ways around a counter wall.

Just my thoughts. =)
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Theres a big diference between 4  and 7 especially when you consider that in the last 7 years we have had  combo decks and card that create combos unlike what you have in lorwyn  forward which have all been fairly straight forward control/agro decks.


Also  your post pretty much backed mine as all of your examples are top decks  of the last few season and they seem to be your main concern.




Dude... not cool.

I'm trying to do everyone a favour here. I want this new format to be  fun - I want it to inspire discussions as to a new metagame. With this thread, I want to help  people to start thinking about how to counter Jund with their Mystical  Teachings control. I want to help people enjoy discussing the viability  of archetypes, new as old.

What I don't want is this thread derailing into pro-change and  anti-change. I repeat, that is not the purpose of this thread! If that is what you wish to discuss, fine. There are plenty of threads  about that (one of which you started yourself, bughferd, so you should  know). Go there.


God knows, I tried to do this subtly the first time.

...so, anyone want to discuss the new metagame coming up?





This isn't even about that this is simply look at the last 4 years and pick the top decks and you have the meta game as of now unless you have a time machine and can go forward in time to tell us what it will look like all we can say is what the top decks of standard have been for the last 4 years and you even support this yourself as all the decks you cite are top decks of the last 4 years.

I don't see how this is pro or anti change this is simply what it is.

And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I for one am looking forward to seeing a Mystic Teaching deck emerge. My fear is that someone will make a working list only to have it go away in a few months.

For some reason playing Teferi and Jace2 in the same deck causes me to salivate.
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
This could be interesting as I was getting back into Magic at the time of Time Spiral/Lorwyn. I can try and revamp some of my older decks and take a swing at Extended now. 

Not looking forward to seeing more of these though

Cast Bloodraid Elf cascade into Fulminator Mage. Kill your non basicland. 

or 

Cast Bloodbraid Elf cascade into Blighting.


Maybe  I can rebuild my old 5 color elemental list with the Reveillark combo. Could be fun.

 
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.


2 slots depending on meta
Glen Elendra Arch.
Sower
Repeals
Negates
More Doomblades over Smothers

And unfortunately I don't have any Jaces. Oh that's gonna hurt to get. Just did a bit of pondering, and not sure whether JMS is needed. Or maybe it is a necessary evil. Perhaps after TSP rotates, I guess. Similar to how Jace 1.0 was run when Visions rotated.

Hur Dur forgot Visions.
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i'm actually going through every Building on a Budget article to see if i find something of interest to get for Double-Standard... i think i'll be getting random good artifacts in anticipation of Scars of Mirrodin... and maybe that B/R Ad naseum Sligh from some months back.

I'm sincerely hoping Scars brings as much vibrance as the original Mirrodin did (without the broken mechanics mind you) to this new format, 'cause i'm hoping for some artifact aggro to rise through the ranks (note: keyword hope)

While Time Spiral is in Extended, the Punishing Fire - Grove combo is worth exploiting. It will give a lot of headaches to all the people that will be jumping into the Faerie bandwagon and it makes short work of Jace too. A control list looks tempting although I don't know whether a third color to splash is viable or not.

If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Dragonstorm

4 mountian
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 spinerock knoll
4 molten slagheap

4 dragonstorm
4 bogardan hellkite

4 grapeshot
4 pyromancer's swath
4 lotus bloom
4 burst lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 incinerate
4 rift bolt
4 Zeketar Shrine Expedition 
 
Super rough version, any ideas what else would improve it? 
dragonstorm isn't really an option with the loss of all the red rituals.  at least, i wouldn't try it

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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dragonstorm isn't really an option with the loss of all the red rituals.  at least, i wouldn't try it



I agree.  It needs at least one good ritual to be competative, which it ultimately lacks.  Lotus Bloom just isn't enough for the deck.
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Before they banned the format out of existence, I was a proud supporter of Modern.

Lark and Swan decks are going to be back and it's going to be awesome.
Actually, with both Cascade and the dredge land in the format, Swans Combo may be more than just a passing fad in the metagame to come. I have no idea how to build a good list, though.

Any ideas as to which control archetype will be most dominant?

Also, any guesses as to whether Fae will be playing JtMS? My guess would be yes, but then again, Ancestral Visions is really good - and it gives them something besides Thoughtseize/Duress to do turn one. In defense of JtMS, though, He's sooo much better when drawn turn three, and he gets excellent protection, courtesy of Bitterblossom. He messes with their turn four, when they want to hold back mana to play Mistbind Clique or Cryptic Command, but my guess is that he's worth it.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM

I think good fae lists will end up with 6 Thoughtseize effects, using seize and inquisition, so they can get the perfect draws more often, turn one disruption is really important for the fae player.

The problem with jace.2 is that it's sorcery speed, however it's sheer raw power means it should be played.

Although by the time most of us get to play extended again, TSP will be out anyway I think.
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// Lands    
4 [EVE] Fetid Heath  
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats    
4 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights  
4 [CST] Swamp (1)    
6 [SHM] Plains (4)    
2 [MOR] Mutavault
// Creatures    
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler  
3 [LRW] Cloudgoat Ranger    
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks    
3 [SHM] Murderous Redcap    
1 [M10] Captain of the Watch
// Spells    
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession    
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom    
4 [10E] Glorious Anthem    
3 [CFX] Path to Exile    
3 [M10] Ajani Goldmane    
3 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
This is powerful
Wouldn't mind seeing Gideon in the above list... or Conqueror's Pledge, for that matter.

Magus of the Abyss would be a great sideboard card against some decks, but, sadly, it dies to Bolt.

I don't know if the mana can support Gatekeeper of Malakir, but it probably can't. Vampire Hexmage, however, may, or may not, be necessary to combat Planeswalker decks.

It does kinda bother me, though, that, Marsh Flats aside, there are only cards from Lorwyn/Alara Standard... don't know if that was, maybe, a little too obvious. =)
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Jace will be played by good fea players who know that dropping him on turn 4 is not always the answer and that his thrid ability causes shenanigens when used right.

Jace has raw power but his mana cost makes him a very odd fit in the deck.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I imagine that Fae will play at least a couple copies of Jace.  He's going to be safe to play on turn 4 a fair amount of the time, and like bughferd said, you don't always have to play him ASAP.

EDIT: I like the tokens list, but why Murderous Redcap?  Just to pick off faeries?
I imagine that Fae will play at least a couple copies of Jace.  He's going to be safe to play on turn 4 a fair amount of the time, and like bughferd said, you don't always have to play him ASAP.

EDIT: I like the tokens list, but why Murderous Redcap?  Just to pick off faeries?




I really couldn't see my self playing jace on turn 4 unless I have no couterspells no V-clique and no mistbind if I have any of those holding jace back is just a much safer plan.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Wow. I missed this thread.
Okay. Me and a bunch of my gaming group have been doing round-the-clock testing, and so far it looks like its a Teachings/Fae hybrid FTW. 5-color is making a good appearance. The all new decks are a viable reanimator deck, an Esper Turbo Fog deck with Dralnu, Lich Lord and Mark of Asylum, Living End/Scapeshift, and a Stax Deck somewher in tier 2/3
So far this is my total meta info. Keep in mind thought though I'm a relatively experienced player and I have some incredibly good testers helping me out, it's entirely possible I'll be completely wrong.
Tier 1: Teachings/Faeries, both together and separate parts. 5-color control. Jund. Because Blightnings are pretty damn good. Pickles Variants. Possibly Cascade Swans (they're at the borderline.)
Tier 2: Scapeshift. Living End. Possibly Cascade Swans. Dralnu Fog deck (Dralnu, Lich Lord, Mark of Asylum, and a Turbo-fog strategy. It's surpisingly good.) Red Deck Wins. Red Black Deck Wins. Red White Deck Wins. White Weenie. The Rock. Reanimator. In short, Aggro/Combo is tier 2.
Tier 3: Mythic-style ramp decks. Time Sieve. Elves. STAX variants.
Overall, it looks like a very slow format, with a control-heavy element, a bunch of combo decks that pop up out of nowhere, and a lot of tier-2 red decks. Jace2.0 is close to universally played in the top tier. It, along with Ancestral Vision, make up the card draw base that is defining the game. Jund Decks are mostly alive because they tend to run 4 Great Sable Stags in the main, which are pretty nasty alongside Bloodbraid Elf.
Again, this assessment of the meta could well be completely wrong. But, this is what it appears to be at this point in testing.
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57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
I imagine that Fae will play at least a couple copies of Jace.  He's going to be safe to play on turn 4 a fair amount of the time, and like bughferd said, you don't always have to play him ASAP.

EDIT: I like the tokens list, but why Murderous Redcap?  Just to pick off faeries?




I really couldn't see my self playing jace on turn 4 unless I have no couterspells no V-clique and no mistbind if I have any of those holding jace back is just a much safer plan.


The correct play is highly dependent on the game state.  I can certainly see situations where tapping out for Jace on turn 4 is the correct play. 
Okay. Me and a bunch of my gaming group have been doing round-the-clock testing, and so far it looks like its a Teachings/Fae hybrid FTW.



Just out of curiosity, what was the actual Fae/Teachings deck list that you used?
"Do not concern yourself with my origin, my race, or my ancestry. Seek my record in the pits, and then make your wager." --Arcanis the Omnipotent
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IMAGE(http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/2/23/Phyrexian_Loyalty.png)
Before they banned the format out of existence, I was a proud supporter of Modern.

I don't have deck lists on my laptop. this is a rough Skeleton list:
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Secluded Glen
4 Dreadship Reef
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 River of Tears
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Mistbind Clique
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Bitterblossom
2 Damnation
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sudden Death
1 Careful Concentration
1 Consume the Meek
2 Deprive
Sideboard:
2 Jace Beleren
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Think Twice
2 Scepter of Fugue


There are several variants. The big thing is to use Mystical Teachings to tutor for various Faeries, such as the Mistbind Cliques which can make or break the mirror, Vendilion Clique against combo, Consume the Meek against aggro, Sudden Death against decks like Pickles or the Teferi variants, or some of your card draw. It can attack in multiple ways, with Faeries, Jace, or Teferi, which is a 1-of usually, thanks to teachings flashback. Some have a heavier counter emphasis. A few use heavy Scion of Oona. Some use Sower of Temptation. Some are actually one or the other, with a transformative sideboard. Generally, the hybrid builds are anything that has both Faerie Elements and a Mystical Teachings Toolbox. They also usually run 3-4 Jace2.0 main.
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Wins I have Witnessed[sblock]
57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
In general it looks like a good list.  I don't like a lot of the numbers specifically, nor the absence of Scion of Oona, but it looks pretty solid on the whole.

What do you think of Unified Will?  I've been debating it for a couple of days as a potential counter for a faeries deck.  It's easy to cast and has strong synergy with Bitterblossom.  Definitely not ideal for the mirror or decks that crap out tokens, but I'd think in a control-heavy format it would be a great counter.
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I imagine that Fae will play at least a couple copies of Jace.  He's going to be safe to play on turn 4 a fair amount of the time, and like bughferd said, you don't always have to play him ASAP.

EDIT: I like the tokens list, but why Murderous Redcap?  Just to pick off faeries?





I really couldn't see my self playing jace on turn 4 unless I have no couterspells no V-clique and no mistbind if I have any of those holding jace back is just a much safer plan.



The correct play is highly dependent on the game state.  I can certainly see situations where tapping out for Jace on turn 4 is the correct play. 



Against control decks you open yourself up to sweepers against jund they have BBE  these are just some examples but simply put turn 4 is just too crucial to not either counter their turn or mana short it.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Jace2.0 is close to universally played in the top tier. It, along with Ancestral Vision, make up the card draw base that is defining the game.



If this is true, doe 5cc still use Esper Charm for draw? If you subscribe to starcity, how closely does your version of 5cc match up with what Chapin had in his article?
Stop using "IMO" in sentences that aren't opinion. If you don't think a deck will ever be tier 1, that's great - but it's not an opinion. It's a prediction of the future. I identify as neither male nor female. You may refer to me with either gender pronoun or the singular they, whichever suits you best. ^_^ Re: Dismember
97543238 wrote:
Everybody knows that having your awesome creatures killed before they can do anything is frustrating, but the Red mage in me doesn't seem to understand why it's so bad when his creatures spontaneously combust into Flame Javelins and make his opponent discard something at the same time.
Currently Working On: Self-Mill (Standard)
I was a little tired when I wrote up that list. Most decks have a beatdown option, using 4 Mystical Teachings and a singleton Scion of Oona. that way, if you're the beatdown, you can tutor for it, and use it to pump all the tokens, but if you're the control, you don't get weighted down with aggro spells too much. I don't subscribe to Starcity personnally. our 5-color builds started as the original 5-color decks, but with Wall of Omens instead of Plumeveil, and Jace2.0 instead of Broodmate. Right now, the decks are running a Mystical Teachings toolbox of their own, and focus on Mass Removal/Giant bombs. Average decks run 4 Great Sable Stags, 1-2 Teferi, 4 Jace2.0, 2-3 Cruel Ultimatum, and often a Singleton Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker as bombs, a suite of mass removal like Wrath of God, Damnation, and singletons Consume the Meek and Volcanic Fallout, Cryptic Command and Deprive for Counter, and some combination of Esper Charm and Ancestral Vision for card drawing. However, as none of my group are as good as Pat Chapin, his build is probably a better option.
I just finished a Teachings Faeries vs. Swans match in a deck running Unified will instead of Deprive. I just went 3-0. We may have a new staple card. Oh, and most Teachngs Faeries decks run 1-2 copies of Consuming Vapors or Cruel Edict in the main, with the ability to bring it to 4 with the side. To protect from the 4 main deck Great Sable Stags that most 5-color and Jund decks run.
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57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
Wow. I missed this thread.
Okay. Me and a bunch of my gaming group have been doing round-the-clock testing, and so far it looks like its a Teachings/Fae hybrid FTW. 5-color is making a good appearance. The all new decks are a viable reanimator deck, an Esper Turbo Fog deck with Dralnu, Lich Lord and Mark of Asylum, Living End/Scapeshift, and a Stax Deck somewher in tier 2/3
So far this is my total meta info. Keep in mind thought though I'm a relatively experienced player and I have some incredibly good testers helping me out, it's entirely possible I'll be completely wrong.
Tier 1: Teachings/Faeries, both together and separate parts. 5-color control. Jund. Because Blightnings are pretty damn good. Pickles Variants. Possibly Cascade Swans (they're at the borderline.)
Tier 2: Scapeshift. Living End. Possibly Cascade Swans. Dralnu Fog deck (Dralnu, Lich Lord, Mark of Asylum, and a Turbo-fog strategy. It's surpisingly good.) Red Deck Wins. Red Black Deck Wins. Red White Deck Wins. White Weenie. The Rock. Reanimator. In short, Aggro/Combo is tier 2.
Tier 3: Mythic-style ramp decks. Time Sieve. Elves. STAX variants.
Overall, it looks like a very slow format, with a control-heavy element, a bunch of combo decks that pop up out of nowhere, and a lot of tier-2 red decks. Jace2.0 is close to universally played in the top tier. It, along with Ancestral Vision, make up the card draw base that is defining the game. Jund Decks are mostly alive because they tend to run 4 Great Sable Stags in the main, which are pretty nasty alongside Bloodbraid Elf.
Again, this assessment of the meta could well be completely wrong. But, this is what it appears to be at this point in testing.



I have trouble imagining a metagame where control decks are just plain better than aggro decks... In my experience, control, aggro and combo often end up balancing each other out like rock-paper-scissors - at least in a metagame where all three are present.

Now, I'd very much like to see your Jund list - Jund should be able to do that balancing act with Fae and combo, but if it's top heavy enough to play poorly against lightning-fast aggro (like the classic Jund lists were in Standard), we would have some Naya/RDW-variants betting on good MU's against Fae and Jund, combo decks preying on Jund and Naya/RDW, and Fae preying on combo decks. Then we would have a pretty open metagame.

I'd also very much like to see your take on 5cc and a solid Pickles variant.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I think the lack of tier-1 aggro decks is the sheer amount of Mass Removal. Don't forget, of course, that the Teachings/Fae decks are fully capable of going aggro, and winning a race using Bitterblossom/Wrath effects to destroy the aggro decks creatures, but replace the bitterblossom tokens with still more bitterblossom tokens. That's a major strength. You can't side out anti-aggro or anti-control cards for games 2/3. You need both, or you lose to whichever one you sided out the hate against. Here's my current pickles list:
6 Island
3 Desert
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Dreadship Reef
2 Calciform Pools
4 Halimar Depths
2 Urza's Factory
3 Tolaria West
3 Brine Elemental
3 Fathom Seer
4 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
3 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Cryptic Command
4 Deprive
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Think Twice
4 Ptihing Needle
4 Mind Stone
I don't have a sideboard because it changes on a daily basis.
I don't have a list for 5-color because I don't believe 5-color is actually very good. It's too reliant on large, expensive threats, while Faeries/Teachings decks can win a long game with Jace or Teferi, the Swans decks just win way too fast, and Jund can take those threats out with 4 Blightning, win the attrition war with Vengevine and Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing fire combo, and take out the giant planeswalkers with the Vampire Hexmages in the side.
Ninja Edit: the RDW variants get simply taken out by 5-color's mass removal, and have a hard time punching through Faeries, especially after the side, when the Consume Spirits come in to rpelace Teferi (which isn't much use against the red decks, unless they're running Greater Gargadon, which most don't (Teferi beats it too often).
Also, a new tier-1 deck is a Threshold-style deck. I can't give more information because I don't have any decklists, but it can get a 6/6 flying pro black guy down turn 4, a 6/7 tarmogoyf turns 2-3, and and has a reanimator arm that can bring back Akroma the Angel of Wrath.
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57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
Is this also a good thread to brainstorm ideas for new decks? Because I was looking at some cards and got an idea... I don't know if this can actually lead anywhere or not, but I saw Fortune Thief and Angel's Grace, and was reminded of Near-Death Experience. Could that be a deck, or is it just to unwieldy?
Stop using "IMO" in sentences that aren't opinion. If you don't think a deck will ever be tier 1, that's great - but it's not an opinion. It's a prediction of the future. I identify as neither male nor female. You may refer to me with either gender pronoun or the singular they, whichever suits you best. ^_^ Re: Dismember
97543238 wrote:
Everybody knows that having your awesome creatures killed before they can do anything is frustrating, but the Red mage in me doesn't seem to understand why it's so bad when his creatures spontaneously combust into Flame Javelins and make his opponent discard something at the same time.
Currently Working On: Self-Mill (Standard)
Magic League ran a tournament. Here is the winner:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty rainforest
3 Scalding tarn
2 Flooded Grove
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Treetop Village

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Kitchen finks
4 Bloodbraid elf
2 Vendilion clique

4 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning bolt
4 Ancestral vision
4 Cryptic command
3 Jace, the mind sculptor

SB
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Negate
3 Great Sable Stag
2 Primal Command
2 Sower of Temptation

Control or Tempo? It doesn't destroy lands, but somehow reminds me of the old Canadian Threshold decks of Legacy. It has adopted the Grove - Punishing combo, which is neat, and it includes 0 % vivids, which is a good thing.

If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
@ Losenas: I'm creating a thread in Extended Deck help. While we're at it, I'm working on using the Fatestitcher/Splinter Twin/Extractor Demon combo alongside Hedron Crab, for a dredge deck, getting mana with the Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Lotus Bloom combo.
@ Javert: I'm inclined to think that will be a major deck. It can disrupt the combo decks, out-attrition control with the Grove/Fire combo, and can outrun some of the slower red decks.

In the phantom meta (our current name for the metagame me and my testers have been creating, which may or may not be a good bellwether for the actual meta), Cascade Swans is now without a doubt a tier-1 deck. The Tarmogoyf deck I mentioned earlier has now become a B/G/W rock deck with 28-30 lands, Raven's Crime/Thoughtseize, and Knight of the Reliquary. And, Fae/Pickles is starting to Usurp Fae/Teachings. E.G., end of opponent's turn drop Mistbind Clique, on your turn flip up Brine Elemental, next turn morph/turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Epic. Win.
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57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
I think B/W tokens will be a good deck to run, especially at first while everyone is high on Fae and Jund.  It seems just as powerful as it ever was, maybe even more so now with the additon of other cards.  I haven't looked into it much, but I don't think the older lists needs much in the way of changes.  Turn 2 Bitterblossom, turn 3 Spectral Procession, turn 4 Ajani Goldmane, turn 5 Cloudgoat Ranger never stopped being good.  I think the inclusion of Conqueror's Pledge could be solid, and maybe Brave the Elements, not sure though...but I think B/W tokens could be up there in this new extended.

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In the phantom meta (our current name for the metagame me and my testers have been creating, which may or may not be a good bellwether for the actual meta), Cascade Swans is now without a doubt a tier-1 deck. The Tarmogoyf deck I mentioned earlier has now become a B/G/W rock deck with 28-30 lands, Raven's Crime/Thoughtseize, and Knight of the Reliquary. And, Fae/Pickles is starting to Usurp Fae/Teachings. E.G., end of opponent's turn drop Mistbind Clique, on your turn flip up Brine Elemental, next turn morph/turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Epic. Win.


Some kind of Tarmo-Rack, maybe? Sounds solid.

I like the G/R/U deck. I like how it plays into the strengths of the enemy fetches coupled with filter-lands, to give you a supremely strong 'wedge-shaped' manabase - although it isn't prioritized all that highly in this specific deck because of the Grove of the Burnwillows engine. I like the idea, though the implementation seems a bit rough. I love the Treetop Villages, though I think the overall deck could definitely gain something from being tweeked a little.

I like how it completely hates on Fae with both Volcanic Fallout and GSS in the side - a formula which, I think, could very well be defining for aggro decks in the new metagame.

For RDW-variants, most of their creatures should be able to survive Fallout, and RDW always had a good MU against Fae to begin with. If Wall of Omens has a small enough place in the new meta (which Fae suggests it might), Ball Lightning-style RDW should have good MU's against Fae, Jund variants and Pickles. It laughs at sweepers, and can run Volcanic Fallout main deck. Might be worth considering.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM

5cc gets lots of tools:


4 Wall of Omens
2 Kozilek/Ulamog
(6)

4 Esper Charm
4 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Cryptic Command
4 Broken Ambitions
4 Day of Judgement
3 Negate
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Path to Exile
(29)

And lands as you see fit. This idea is off the top of my head, but basically the deck can pretty much operate at instant speed, unless it wants to break the back of the opponent, either with cruel, day of J to smash aggro, or kozilek/ulamog to finish the game later on. It's obviously a rough idea, but I would expect to see 5cc decks playing somethign like this, although maelstrom pulse could really be useful in the world of walkers and bitterblossom.
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