Genasi Scorcherer: PEACH

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So I started out building a fire based Gensi sorc (hence the name) and eventually ended up changing it to... something that didn't really work. SO I changed it AGAIN to... and AGAIN!






Initial stated average DPR assumes going to be attacked after I end my turn by an enemy that was hit by Burning Spray - thus unorthodox.


Triple-Cheese, level 30


Tiefling, Sorcerer|Warlock, Morninglord, Radiant One
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Mace)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Arcane Admixture II: Arcane Admixture Cold II
Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer: Dragon Soul
Dragon Soul: Dragon Soul Cold
Arcane Admixture Power: Burning Spray
Arcane Admixture II: Eldritch Strike
Background: Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 11, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 38 Fort: 36 Reflex: 40 Will: 40
HP: 169 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +28, Bluff +30, Arcana +25, Religion +25

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Diplomacy +23, Dungeoneering +19, Endurance +16, Heal +19, History +20, Insight +19, Intimidate +23, Nature +19, Perception +19, Stealth +18, Thievery +16, Athletics +17

FEATS
Level 1: White Lotus Enervation
Level 2: Hellfire of Mephistopheles - retrained at level 21
Level 4: Wintertouched
Level 6: White Lotus Riposte
Level 8: Versatile Expertise
Level 10: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 11: Burn Everything - Retrained at level 22
Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 14: Lasting Frost
Level 16: Arcane Admixture
Level 18: Ice Clutch of Stygia  - Retrained at level 23
Level 20: Arcane Spellfury
Level 21: Arcane Initiate
Level 22: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 24: Incendiary Dagger Proficiency 
Level 26: Hellfire Blood
Level 28: Arcane Admixture II
Level 30: Hybrid Talent

POWERS
Arcane Initiate: Thunderwave
Hybrid at-will 1: Burning Spray
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Explosive Pyre
Hybrid daily 1: Dragonfang Bolt
Hybrid utility 2: Deep Shroud
Hybrid encounter 3: Frigid Darkness
Hybrid daily 5: Twilight of the Soul
Hybrid utility 6: Shroud of Black Steel4
Hybrid encounter 7: Blazing Bolts
Hybrid daily 9: Prime the Fire
Hybrid utility 10: Weave Luck
Hybrid encounter 13: Chains of Fire (replaces Explosive Pyre)
Hybrid daily 15: Spitfire Furnace (replaces Dragonfang Bolt)
Hybrid utility 16: Thunder Buffer
Hybrid encounter 17: Azure Talons (replaces Blazing Bolts)
Hybrid daily 19: Blackfire Serpent (replaces Prime the Fire)
Hybrid utility 22: Ultimate Resistance
Hybrid encounter 23: Inferno Ring (replaces Azure Talons)
Hybrid daily 25: Draconic Incarnation (replaces Blackfire Serpent)
Hybrid encounter 27: Wildfire Curse (replaces Inferno Ring)
Hybrid daily 29: Hellish Firestorm (replaces Draconic Incarnation)

ITEMS
Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Firebird (epic tier), Subtle Dagger +5, Evil Eye Fetish +6, Shadowdance Starweave Armor +6, Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Subtle Incendiary dagger +6, Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth (epic tier) (2), Dancing Dagger +4 (3), Symbol of Divine Light +4, Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3), Belt of Vim (paragon tier)




(All to-hit is based on DM guide parameters)



To hit on first hit using Burning Spray: 

+8 Charisma
+15 Half Level
+6 Enhance
+3 Versatile Dagger Focus
+1 Incendiary Dagger
+1 Hellfire blood

65% hit chance

Subsequent hits with burning spray until I miss...:





+8 Charisma
+15 Half Level
+6 Enhance
+3 Versatile Dagger Focus
+1 WL Enervation (-1 ref on target)
+2 CA
+1 Incendiary
+1 Hellfire blood
+1 Arcane Spellfury

85% hit chance


Damage on First hit: (65%)

2d8 (avg 12 with Ring of Radiant Storm)
+8 Charisma
+6 Enhancement
+5 Off-hand enhancement
+2 Draconic Power (Strengh)
+4 Draconic Power (generic Tier Bonus)
+4 Item Bonus from Firebird
+5 Siberys Shard of the Fiery Depth.
+4 Gloves of Ice
+3 Weapon Focus (Dagger)
+1 Hellfire Blood
+4 Incendiary.


73 damage + average 12

Damage on Subsequent Hits until I miss (CA from Wintertouched): (85%)







2d8 (avg 12 with Ring of Radiant Storm)
+8 Charisma
+6 Enhancement
+5 Off-hand enhancement
+2 Draconic Power (Strengh)
+4 Draconic Power (generic Tier Bonus)
+4 Item Bonus from Firebird
+5 Siberys Shard of the Fiery Depth.
+4 Gloves of Ice
+12 Subtle
+5 Frost Vuln (applied first round with Lasting Frost)
+5 from Hellfire of M (applied first round.)
+15 from radiant vuln (Applied with first attack from Morninglord and Symbol of Divine Light)
+4 Pelor
+5 Radiant one
+1 Hellfire Blood
+4 Incendiary


88 + average 12 Damage



Also applies ongoing 5 + 5 (HoM) +15 (Morning Lord and SoDL) + 5 (Radiant one) + 4 (Pelor's Boon)


34 damage every round until save (55% normal, 75% on solo), maintained by hit.


+18 (Stygia) + 5 (HoM) + 15 (Morning Lord and SoDL) + 5 (Permafrost) +4 (pelor) +5 (Radiant One) damage when they save: 52



End of turn if I haven't attacked via Dancing, using Eldritch Strike through Dancing Dagger (70%):

 






2d4 (avg 6 with Ring of Radiant Storm)


+8 Charisma
+4 Enhancement
+5 off-hand bonus.
+4 Item Bonus from Firebird
+5 Siberys Shard Fiery Depth.
+4 Gloves of Ice
+6 Subtle
+5 Frost Vuln (applied first round with Lasting Frost)
+15 Morning Lord with Symbol of Divine Light
+5 from HoM
+4 Pelor
+5 Radiant one
+1 Hellfire Blood

71 + average 6 Damage


Assuming I'm hit after hitting with Burning Spray:








Burning Spray: 2 + 5 Radiant One +15 Morning Lord and SoDL +5 Frost + 5 HoM +4 Pelor's Boon (activates on hit; avg def is 38.5... assuming average to hit for monsters is +34 at same level, thats 75% chance to hit me and trigger this... jeese, maybe I should make myself harder to hit?! Oh well, it's only theory.)

WLR: 8 + 5 Radiant One +15 Morning Lord and SoDL +5 Frost + 5 HoM +4 Pelor's Boon

78 damage (+1d12 if they are ranged and +6 if they have CA) if hit, 42 if missed (25% chance) followed by


WLMR:

2d8 (avg 12 with Ring or Radiant Storm) (85%)
+8 Charisma
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement
+2 Draconic Power (Strengh)
+4 Draconic Power (generic Tier Bonus)
+4 Item Bonus from Firebird
+5 Siberys Shard of the Fiery Depth
+4 Gloves of Ice
+4 for being Tiefling with Hellfire Arcanist
+12 Subtle
+5 Frost Vuln (applied first round with Lasting Frost)
+5 From HoM
+15 from radiant vuln (Applied with first attack from Morninglord and SoDL)
+4 Pelor
+5 Radiant one
+1 Hellfire Blood
+4 Incendiary Dagger







88 + average 12 Damage

Okay, so the new DPR, factoring just about everything is, and assuming I'm going to be attacked, and the target has no specific fire resistance (If they do it will just take longer for DPR to take full effect.) and are not immune to fire, frost and radiant at the same time:


342




I'm also now way under budget on magic items... G9,040,680



Still assuming CA.







Thanks to everyone pointing out errors! Feel free to correct my math... lol.




Triple-Cheese is very much a glass cannon - his health and defenses kinda suck, but this was more about seeing how high I could take damage using Burning Spray by using 3 types of cheese (Frost, Fire and Radiant Cheese all employed.)

Wolf.










Maximum Damage =/= DPR.  They are entirely different, but related, concepts.

While you may be able to pull off 295 damage in one round, your DPR (which means your statistically average damage, all things considered) is MUCH lower.

As to the build itself, I don't see anything particularly oustanding about it.  You could probably get a higher true DPR using Cold, Radiant or Lightning/Thunder instead of Fire.
Please explain how you're applying morning lord's 10 vulnerability multiple times / attack.  Also before I post this on the DPR king candidates would you go through the cheese list and tell me what cheese you employ.  I know the name implies 3, but I'd like to see what elements I should be adding you as.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
When you deal "extra damage" its part of the same damage application even if its type is different. It can trigger diferent vulnerabilities, but not miltiple times the same one. Dealing extra damage is not the same as dealing damage again.
By your resoning only pelor's sun blessing and radiant vulnerability is enough to deal infinite damage.

You deal X damage and because you have dealt damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod, and because you have dealt damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod, and because you have deal damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod...

If you deal 50 fire and cold damage and extra 5 fire damage and extra 10 fire and radiant and extra 2d6 fire and extra 1d8+10 fire and poison... that will do 5 more damage to monster with 5 fire vulnerability and 5 less damage to monster with 5 fire resist.
When you deal "extra damage" its part of the same damage application even if its type is different. It can trigger diferent vulnerabilities, but not miltiple times the same one. Dealing extra damage is not the same as dealing damage again.
By your resoning only pelor's sun blessing and radiant vulnerability is enough to deal infinite damage.

You deal X damage and because you have dealt damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod, and because you have dealt damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod, and because you have deal damage you deal extra damage equal to your Wis mod...

If you deal 50 fire and cold damage and extra 5 fire damage and extra 10 fire and radiant and extra 2d6 fire and extra 1d8+10 fire and poison... that will do 5 more damage to monster with 5 fire vulnerability and 5 less damage to monster with 5 fire resist.



 


You were right - fixed, re-fixed and fixed again...


 


Wolf


Dragonfrost using Dancing Incendiary Dagger via Sorcerous Blade Channeling: (80%)




Dragonfrost is not a melee basic attack, so it cannot be used with the dancing weapon.  Sorcerous Blade Channeling lets you use it in melee range but does not change it to a melee basic from a ranged basic.

Both dancing weapon and whetstones use up your daily item uses, you will not be able to use both in every encounter.

You cannot guarantee the white lotus damage, so what if you are not attacked?


+6 for being Tiefling with Hellfire Arcanist



How do you get +6?  Hellfire Arcanist gives a +4 bonus in epic tier.

Dragonfrost using Dancing Incendiary Dagger via Sorcerous Blade Channeling: (80%)




Dragonfrost is not a melee basic attack, so it cannot be used with the dancing weapon.  Sorcerous Blade Channeling lets you use it in melee range but does not change it to a melee basic from a ranged basic.

Both dancing weapon and whetstones use up your daily item uses, you will not be able to use both in every encounter.

You cannot guarantee the white lotus damage, so what if you are not attacked?




 


Sorcerous Bloade channeling allows me to treat a ranged sorc attack as a melee attack. Dragonfrost can be used as a ranged basic attack. Change the ranged to melee and it's a melee basic attack.


It just changed the range... however, I'm willing to accept I may be wrong, if you can point me to a ruling that says it doesn't work, I'll be happy to recalculate.


 


It's epic, I can use 3 daily's per day before milstone, so it works for at least 2 encounters a day.


I assume I'll be attacked as I'll be stood next to them dealing damage - in my experience, I'm usually hit in these circumstances. Plus my defenses are kinda low.


If I'm not attacked, damage is 171.55 including Dancing Weapon, but honestly, I think I can assume I'll be attacked at least once...


 


Damage if I'm hit excluding Dancing Weapon: 264.20


Damage if I'm not hit excluding dancing Weapon: 88.10


 


Wolf



Sorcerous blade channeling is clarified in the Arcane Power FAQ.


2. If I have the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat, can I make opportunity attacks with powers (like Acid Orb) that can normally be used as Ranged Basic Attacks?


No, the feat allows you to use the attack as a Melee Attack not a Melee Basic Attack.

Thank you Melos


It does seem like a very odd ruling though... after all, a melee basic attack is still a melee attack. Oh well... Still quite high, lol.


*sigh*


CHange now mde to build. Again, lol


 


Changed the build AGAIN...


 


Wolf.


 

Usually, a Symbol of Divine Light is used with Morninglord to increase the radiant vulnerability by 5.  Your Avenger MC gives you holy symbol use, so you could add that to your build.


You only get the +4 to damage from the incendiary dagger you use to attack, the off-hand one will not add to damage on attacks made with the main hand one.  The character builder will give you the bonus from both, but that is a bug with the character builder.  You also do not get incendiary damage on eldritch strike since it is not an implement power.

(PH3 page 195 - A superior implement's properties apply only to attacks made with the implement. They affect only implement powers, even if an implement can be used to make weapon attacks.)

Usually, a Symbol of Divine Light is used with Morninglord to increase the radiant vulnerability by 5.  Your Avenger MC gives you holy symbol use, so you could add that to your build.


You only get the +4 to damage from the incendiary dagger you use to attack, the off-hand one will not add to damage on attacks made with the main hand one.  The character builder will give you the bonus from both, but that is a bug with the character builder.  You also do not get incendiary damage on eldritch strike since it is not an implement power.

(PH3 page 195 - A superior implement's properties apply only to attacks made with the implement. They affect only implement powers, even if an implement can be used to make weapon attacks.)



Thanks for that, Melos! I'll ad to the build!

As to the incendiary dagger, you're right again, it shouldn't be there on Eldritch Strike - I removed one of them but forgot the text, which states you have to attacking through an energized weapon.

As to only using one, it's an untyped bonus, and does not specify that you have to use the power through THIS implement, only an energized implement. As I'm using two energized implements, one of which is being used to channel Burning Spray, just going by the test, I do get it twice, like Subtle.


Not on Eldritch Strike though! Even with that, Symbol of Divine Light will increase my DPR.


Thanks


I'll update DPR when I get home again - gotta go to work... *sigh*


 


(Text for energized:


Energized (fire) (When you use an attack power through an energized implement, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls if the power has the keyword that matches the implement’s damage type. The bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.). ) It doesn't specify through THIS implement.


 


Wolf.




EDIT: Updated build with all current DPR.

Unfortionately, there are still a few issues.

1. Hellfire arcanist gives a +4 at epic, not +6.


2. You are still using two magic item dailies per encouter. You can only do this for the first encounter, then again on the third (and seventh), wheras to be eligable for dpr candidates 2.0 (and, really for it to be dpr) I think you need to maintain it for the at least the first three, possibly the first five (I'll ask Borg on the dpr candidates thread).


3. WLR/WLMR require you to hit, so their damage needs to be multiplied by your chance of hitting- if you drop the dancing weapon, simply by your hit chance with burning spray.

 If instead you drop the whetstone, then it gets a bit more complicated: your chance of one hit for WLR would be 1 - (miss chance burning spray*miss chance eldritch strike), so 0.97. For WLMR, you would need to calculate your damage if you hit with burning spray and your damage if you hit only with eldritch strike, and multiply those by their probablities.


4. Regardless of interpretation of the superior implement text and Energised, you can't get the bonus twice.

There was errata limiting you to one untyped bonus from each named game element. This means you can have, say a feat bonus, an untyped bonus from a feat, and an untyped bonus from a power, but not two untyped bonuses from an power. (pg. 17 compiled errata, those are the example types they use).

The exact affects of this are a little unclear, such as whether this means one untyped bonuse from items in general or maybe per slot, but I think it's fair to say two incendiary daggers won't both work (although two subtle weapons should, as they add 'extra damage' not a damage bonus). From how often you see gloves of ice and a dragonshard together, I think the assumption must be per slot, so that seems safe.



On a positive note, there are a few feat options worth considering. The feat Punishing Radience increases radiant vulnerability by 10 on a crit, and you could take the 19-20 crit with sorcerer implement feat (I think, don't remember requirements). Also, there's Font of Radience for a seperate radiant damage effect on a crit.


I think that's everything; fix those and you should be good to go. Tired of revisions yet?Laughing
My standing on daily item usage is 1/encounter.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Unfortionately, there are still a few issues.

1. Hellfire arcanist gives a +4 at epic, not +6.


2. You are still using two magic item dailies per encouter. You can only do this for the first encounter, then again on the third (and seventh), wheras to be eligable for dpr candidates 2.0 (and, really for it to be dpr) I think you need to maintain it for the at least the first three, possibly the first five (I'll ask Borg on the dpr candidates thread).


3. WLR/WLMR require you to hit, so their damage needs to be multiplied by your chance of hitting- if you drop the dancing weapon, simply by your hit chance with burning spray.

 If instead you drop the whetstone, then it gets a bit more complicated: your chance of one hit for WLR would be 1 - (miss chance burning spray*miss chance eldritch strike), so 0.97. For WLMR, you would need to calculate your damage if you hit with burning spray and your damage if you hit only with eldritch strike, and multiply those by their probablities.


4. Regardless of interpretation of the superior implement text and Energised, you can't get the bonus twice.

There was errata limiting you to one untyped bonus from each named game element. This means you can have, say a feat bonus, an untyped bonus from a feat, and an untyped bonus from a power, but not two untyped bonuses from an power. (pg. 17 compiled errata, those are the example types they use).

The exact affects of this are a little unclear, such as whether this means one untyped bonuse from items in general or maybe per slot, but I think it's fair to say two incendiary daggers won't both work (although two subtle weapons should, as they add 'extra damage' not a damage bonus). From how often you see gloves of ice and a dragonshard together, I think the assumption must be per slot, so that seems safe.



On a positive note, there are a few feat options worth considering. The feat Punishing Radience increases radiant vulnerability by 10 on a crit, and you could take the 19-20 crit with sorcerer implement feat (I think, don't remember requirements). Also, there's Font of Radience for a seperate radiant damage effect on a crit.


I think that's everything; fix those and you should be good to go. Tired of revisions yet?Laughing




 


Thanks for your time, Paultimatum


1) In regards to this, you are right, obvieously, but for some reason in the CB under damage it's listing it as +6... how odd.

2) I may be going slightly insane from thinking about this build too much, but does it not actually say whetstones are daily powers anywhere? For somethings, from the same source (Elixir of Fortitude) it specifically states it counts as a daily, but it doesn't for whetstones. Has this been changed recently, as it doesn't say so in the CB or compendium either.

3) okay... with WLMR and WLR triggering on a hit from Burning Spray... DPR is 356.43
  With WLMR and WLR triggering based on hit from Eldritch Strike... DPR is 285.93


I think, lol. Pretty sure but is anyone wants to check my math I shan't be offended, lol


4) Fair enough - again, I was going off what the CB was telling me, lol.


 


I need 15 DEX, 15 STR and 21 CHA to get the 19-20 crit range, and I can't afford the dex, lol.
Without that... and aside form that, I'd have to have at least a dozen separate DPR calculations to be really be accurate with any more on-crit stuff. GAH!!


 


Thanks again for your input, any help you can provide in regards to the whetstone?


 


Wolf.

Go to the book (AV) under the whetstones section.  Under the header it states that using one consumes a daily item usage.  It's a common oversight.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

Oh HELLFIRE! Would it have been THAT hard to put the word "Daily" before the word "Power" in the actual item text??


Any suggestions on how to keep both and not drop my damage quite massively? If I assume 3 encounters a day, I can keep this up for 2 of them (first and third) but leaves me with the reduced damage in the second... although 268.22 is better than a kick in the teeth and no ride home...


Oh well, I may not have a constant dpr across 3 encounters, but it's pretty darn good in 2 and pretty good in 1, lol.


Maybe I should just retract my entry and leave it? lol


 


Wolf.


 

That's true, they really should have put it in the power. I don't think there's anyway easy way around it; there might be a feat that adds fire to radiant attacks if you were genasi, or something like that (I just seem to remember a genasi feat that adds a keyword).

If you don't mind doing the calculations, its quite possibly still in the top two non slasher DPRs without the dancing weapon. Also, if you stay tiefling, player's handbook tieflings is said to have some feats that could help, if you check the charop thread i think theres an inflict vunerable 5 fire one.
Check forgotten realms for a paragon feat(shocking flame) meant for storm and fire genasi.  According to the rules now, it will add fire and lightning damage/keywords to your melee attacks.  That may be enough to get you going.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

The build started as a genasi with Shocking flame - it's the same damage as Hellfire Arcanist. I changed it from genasi to Tiefling 'cos of all the support for them thats coming out... and then used none, lol.


Hellfire of Mephistopheles from the Tiefling Handbook will indeed help in regards to the vulnerability - some of the Unfriendly Fire wizard feats will also help, provided I can find spaces for them all, lol.


If I discount Eldritch Strike with Dancing weapon, my DPR is 268.22 which I think puts me in third, after the Slashers.


Of course I'd keep the dancing weapons for when that extra 100 damage is really useful :D


As to adding the fire keyword, shouldn't Radiant One do that, provided I have CA?


 


Questrion: Do Radiant One and Pelor's Blessing trigger on ongoing damage? If so I can increase my damage quite alot... how does how calculates the effect of ongoing damage on DPR?


 


I'd need Consuming the Weak, Hellfire of Mephistopheles and maybe Burn Everything. That would allow me to drop the whetstone... unless I find a way to mark in which case Hell's Burning Mark can replace Hellfire of Mephistopheles...


No rest for the wicked.


 


Thanks for the help, guys.


 


Wolf.

Oh yeaaah, forgot about the fire in radiant one, even though I'd specifically noticed it before. In that case, you might be better off dropping the whetstone instead; I had stupidly assumed that it was adding 15 fire damage, not 15 vulnerable fire, and was the source of some of your fire keywords. 

In that case, I'd think you probably want to drop the whetstone, not the dancing weapon. Also, the whetstone vulnerability applies only to the next attack, so it wouldn't work on WLR.

Starborn + vulnerabilities trigger on ongoing damage, so that seems like a good way to go.


Also, when I said ealier about the probabilities of WLR/WLMR being based off the different attacks, I didn't mean DPR with each, I meant to be included in DPR based on the chances of each. I can explain more if it's not clear later, or someone else might.

I'm pretty sure that's what I did - it's factored into the all-to-plan DPR.


I just thought it worth it to show DPR for possible contingencies.


 


I need 4 feat slots to make up for dropping the whetstone (or 3 if I rely on enemies having maximum 15 or 20 res) or 2 if I can't rely on them having no resistance lol... Apart from War Wizardry what would be best to drop here?


 


Wolf.

I think you can safely assume the monsters have no resistances.  Typically if the DM consistantly throws stuff that's resistant to your attacks the player will choose feats to circumvent it.  Because this is a theoretical build you should assume ideal situations where the monsters are choosing thier best options. 
As per the if they attack DPR and if they hit DPR I think you can roll them into 1 calculation.  You're assumming equal level monsters, so calculate their to-hit vs you (average of all your defences) and multiply that chance by the DPR increase incurred from them damaging you.  You cannot find an expected number of times they will attack you, so that will remain seperate.

So are you tiefling, genasi or human (3 at-wills)?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

I'm Tiefling - The build started off as a genasi and was changed. I didn't want to create a whole new thread.


The third at-will is once/encounter granted by Arcane Initiate.


I've swapped out three feats (dropping my to-hit by 1.). What this has done is cause me to do quite a lot of ongoing damage but drop my to-hit by 5% apparently... it also causes more damage when they save... I'm gonna need help on the math at this point.


They actually take more damage if they save and I keep hitting, which is nice... but working out the to-save probabilities along with the if I'm hit/not-hit/attacked/not-attacked on top of the standard clculations and wrapping them all into single DPR may be a little much for an amateur like me, lol.


Any help would be appreciated - if not, I have a friend I can bug about it...


 


Thanks for all the help.


Wolf.

figure it this way:
there are 3 variables:
1) when his turn starts does he have ongoing?
2) do you hit him?
3) did he save?
We can calculate the chances of you hitting him independant of the rest.
We can approximate his save as 55% chance of saving.  If you want to calculate a solo your damage will go up.
The tough part is calculating the probability of him starting his turn with ongoing.  This boils down to the expected value of: you hit him this round or you hit him last round and didn't save, or you hit him the previous round and he didn't save then either.... with diminishing returns.  Let's say you have a 60%=.6 chance to hit him, and the chance of him saving each round is 55% = .55. 
Let's approximate it with .7 for simplicity sake.  I personally would run a simulation instead of trying to derive the math.

There are 8 scenarios based on the possibilities of the 3 options

Has Ongoing = o(doesn't have ongoing) , O(has ongoing)
Hit = h(didn't hit) , H(did hit)
Saved = s(didn't save) , S(saved taking SaveDamage)

here are the situations and their outcomes
ohs: zero damage because he didn't have ongoing and didn't save and you didn't hit him
ohS: zero damage but he saved from nothing
oHs: just the ongoing
oHS: damage + ongoing + SaveDamage
Ohs: just ongoing
OhS: ongoing + SaveDamage
OHs: damage + ongoing
OHS: damage + ongoing + SaveDamage

Now we take each scenario and multiply the damage they would be taking in each scenario by the chances of that scenario happening.  For example the top one we multiply the zero damage by (o(.3)*h(.6)*s(.55)) = zero dagage * .3*.6*.55.  Adding all these together gives us our expected DPR for hitting him and causing ongoing.  You would have to change the save chance for a solo and thus deal more damage because he'll save more often and hopefully you'll be able to administer it just as quick.  Remember he takes ongoing damage at the beginning of his turn regardless of him saving that turn.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
You said you are getting your at-will through a MC feat, which is only 1/encounter and thus not true DPR.  Why are you quoting it and calculating it?  This is encounter long DPR.  There are only a few situations where that requirement is waived.  The slasher can circumvent it due to being able to deal so much damage so as to kill anything before it outlasts the effects imposed on it (radiant vulnerability), then move on to the next target adminstering a 2 turn radiant vulnerability.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
figure it this way:
there are 3 variables:
1) when his turn starts does he have ongoing?
2) do you hit him?
3) did he save?
We can calculate the chances of you hitting him independant of the rest.
We can approximate his save as 55% chance of saving.  If you want to calculate a solo your damage will go up.
The tough part is calculating the probability of him starting his turn with ongoing.  This boils down to the expected value of: you hit him this round or you hit him last round and didn't save, or you hit him the previous round and he didn't save then either.... with diminishing returns.  Let's say you have a 60%=.6 chance to hit him, and the chance of him saving each round is 55% = .55. 
Let's approximate it with .7 for simplicity sake.  I personally would run a simulation instead of trying to derive the math.

There are 8 scenarios based on the possibilities of the 3 options

Has Ongoing = o(doesn't have ongoing) , O(has ongoing)
Hit = h(didn't hit) , H(did hit)
Saved = s(didn't save) , S(saved taking SaveDamage)

here are the situations and their outcomes
ohs: zero damage because he didn't have ongoing and didn't save and you didn't hit him
ohS: zero damage but he saved from nothing
oHs: just the ongoing
oHS: damage + ongoing + SaveDamage
Ohs: just ongoing
OhS: ongoing + SaveDamage
OHs: damage + ongoing
OHS: damage + ongoing + SaveDamage

Now we take each scenario and multiply the damage they would be taking in each scenario by the chances of that scenario happening.  For example the top one we multiply the zero damage by (o(.3)*h(.6)*s(.55)) = zero dagage * .3*.6*.55.  Adding all these together gives us our expected DPR for hitting him and causing ongoing.  You would have to change the save chance for a solo and thus deal more damage because he'll save more often and hopefully you'll be able to administer it just as quick.  Remember he takes ongoing damage at the beginning of his turn regardless of him saving that turn.




Right... lol. lemme see what I can do.


Also, I'm dropping hellfire arcanist for Incendiary Dagger...

Okay... DPR works out at 384.79532 - please, somebody check my math, lol.


The above includes probablity to miss and be missed, to save on a a none-solo, etc.


This build will do more damage vs. a solo... which is pretty cool.


 


Wolf.

You said you are getting your at-will through a MC feat, which is only 1/encounter and thus not true DPR.  Why are you quoting it and calculating it?  This is encounter long DPR.  There are only a few situations where that requirement is waived.  The slasher can circumvent it due to being able to deal so much damage so as to kill anything before it outlasts the effects imposed on it (radiant vulnerability), then move on to the next target adminstering a 2 turn radiant vulnerability.


 


Didn't see this before - I'm not using Thunderwave, which is the at-will once/encounter I got through the MC, it's just there. 


 


I got Eldritch Strike via Hybriding my Sorc with Warlock.


 


Sorry I didn't make that clearer!


 


Wolf.



Your sorcerer bonus damage only works on sorcerer powers, you need to remove it from eldritch strike.

You are way over budget for magic items.  Building a PC gets you 3 magic items, one each of your level+1, your level, your level-1, and gold equal to an item of your level-1.  For a build, people usually turn that all into gold and buy their items with that gold.   A level 30 character gets 14,000,000 gp, so you need to base your magic items on that and remove or downgrade items until you are at or below that number.

Since you need to hit the enemy in order to set up the white lotus triggers, have you calculated their damage and other effects based on that?  IE, for WLR you would take its damage multiplied by the chance that you have previously hit the enemy, since you need to hit to set up WLR to trigger.  For WLMR you would need to multiply the damage by both your chance to hit with the actual WLMR attack, and by the chance that you have hit previously to set up the trigger.  You would do this for anything that is conditional from you hitting on a previous attack (vulnerabilities, white lotus, etc)  Since you get CA from cold vuln applied by you hitting, you would not consider it +2 to hit, it would be 2 * the chance that you have previously hit the target to set up the vulnerability.

Your sorcerer bonus damage only works on sorcerer powers, you need to remove it from eldritch strike.

You are way over budget for magic items.  Building a PC gets you 3 magic items, one each of your level+1, your level, your level-1, and gold equal to an item of your level-1.  For a build, people usually turn that all into gold and buy their items with that gold.   A level 30 character gets 14,000,000 gp, so you need to base your magic items on that and remove or downgrade items until you are at or below that number.

Since you need to hit the enemy in order to set up the white lotus  triggers, have you calculated their damage and other effects based on  that?  IE, for WLR you would take its damage multiplied by the chance that you have previously hit the enemy, since you need to hit to set up WLR to trigger.  For  WLMR you would need to multiply the damage by both your chance to hit  with the actual WLMR attack, and by the chance that you have hit previously  to set up the trigger.  You would do this for anything that is  conditional from you hitting on a previous attack (vulnerabilities,  white lotus, etc)  Since you get CA from cold vuln applied by you  hitting, you would not consider it +2 to hit, it would be 2 * the chance  that you have previously hit the target to set up the vulnerability.





 




1) This is unfortunately true... a legacy from when it was a pure sorc. D'oh EDIT: Fixed.




2) If 14,000,000 is what we should have then the current king of DPR is ineligible... EDIT: Fixed.




3) I'm assuming CA. Again, at this point, lol, I'm fine with being ineligible for assuming it's there.
And yes, WLMR and WLR have been fully factored in with probability from previous attacks triggering, as well as a monsters chances of hitting me and triggering the effect of burning spray, and how it call combines.



Again - if anyone wants to recalculate my DPR... that's cool. lol.

 


Wolf.



As you aren't actually showing your DPR formulas, you may have actually fixed these problems in your formulas, but:

Your burning spray initial damage should be 36 + average 12 (you have 73 + average 12 listed).

Your burning spray damage until you miss, according to the numbers you have listed, totals 89 + average 12; however you should only be getting +11 subtle, so it should be 88 + average 12 (you have 93 + average 12 listed).

Your eldritch strike dancing attack:
Is not an implement attack, therefore does not benefit from DIS, or Firebird, so the total should be 62 + average 6 (you have 71 + average 6 listed).

 Your WLMR attack:
Currently you have your offhand bonus listed as +6, although it should be +5.  You don't actually have Hellfire Arcanist anymore.  Similar to above, you should only have +11 subtle. Thus the total should be 88 + average 12 (you have 94 + average 12 listed.)


Finally: Can you post/message me your formulas?  I ask because:

Assuming you have CA because you hit on the last round, and you hit again this round, and your opponent hits you back, and you hit with your WLMR, and your opponent takes the ongoing damage at the start of his turn, and then passes his save at the end of his turn (Which I believe is the highest reasonable damage to assume, without accounting for anything missing/not working in your favor) I see a problem:

Burning Spray: 100
Dancing: 68
WLR: 78
WLMR: 100
Ongoing: 34
Save vs Ongoing: 52
Total Damage on highest damage outcome round: 432.  

Applying solely the miss chance on Burning Spray = 15%, and assume that you still hit on the previous round.
Burning Spray: 85
Dancing: 68
WLR: 78 (Since you still hit with Eldritch Strike, this doesn't change)
WLMR: 85 + 10.2 = 95 (Since you might have missed with Burning Spray)
Ongoing: 29 (Since you might have missed with Burning Spray)
Save vs Ongoing: 44 (Since you might have missed with Burning Spray)
Total Damage assuming you hit last round, but applying a chance to miss with Burning Spray this round:  399

Applying the miss chance on Burning Spray, and the miss Chance on Dancing, but still assuming you hit on the previous round.
Burning Spray: 86
Dancing: 48
WLR: 66 + 8.19 = 74 (Since you might miss with both attacks) 
WLMR: 85 + 7 = 92 (Since you might miss with both)
Ongoing: 29
Save vs Ongoing: 44
Total: 371

Applying a chance for monsters to miss you (assuming a monster hits 75% of the time):
WLR: 74*0.75 + 40*0.25 = 66
New total: 363

Applying a chance for monsters to fail their save:
Ongoing: 29 + 0.15*0.45*34 (chance of you missing with Burning Spray, but monsters failing the save on their last turn and therefore the ongoing is still at full strength even though you missed) = 31
Save vs Ongoing:  24 (you hit this time, they saved last turn) + (you missed this time, they failed last turn) + 4 = 28
New Total: 357

Applying a miss chance to WLMR attacks:
WLMR: 73 + 5 = 78
New Total: 342

Conclusion:  Without getting into the accuracy of decimal places, your total DPR should be something around 345.  Additionally, calculating the chance that you hit on the previous turn (and therefore already have cold/radiant vulnerability applied) wouldn't be that difficult, and would allow you to have a more accurate number.  (You lose about 60 damage, about 5% of the time, so you only lose about 3 DPR; it's slightly higher than this, since your dancing damage/hit also decreases if you missed last turn with both attacks AND you miss with Burning Spray, but that's only about 1% of the time, so it doesn't even chance DPR by 1).  Final DPR (it looks like, although I'm probably doing something silly which is why I'm getting such a low number) is about 339, and you don't have to make any assumptions about CA.

Dude, I made so many changes to that build I'm not surprised there are discrepancies...


I would show you my math, if I could remember it or I kept copies, but I just do it all over again each time and generally in different, convoluted and somewhat insane ways... so I just changed my DPR to match you math, lol.


 


Thank you VERY much, lol. Am I honestly very grateful... now can I beg you to please do the same to my Wracker build? The math is driving me nuts 'cos I can't decide how to treat the on-save damage... I'd be even more eternally gratefuller... lol.


 


Wolf.

I'll get to the Wracker over the next few days.  And then I'll probably have go look at the Slasher builds.  (My toe is broken so I have lots of spare time).  I'd been avoiding the Slashers because they all popped up right after my Winter Stunlock build happened to use Slashing to do 100DPR, and I thought that was heresy when it was a perfectly good 'keep solo's stunlocked forever and ever' build, which seemed pretty rare nowadays.

Yeah, you don't see many of those these days... I've never really looked for ways to do it. Well, I did once but then they nerfed most of the save-ends stuff... oh well! lol


Sorry to hear about your toe! I've never had a broken bone, but my finger got crushed off once and that hurt like hell... especially when they put the end in salt water... ouch.


Hope it heals well!


Wolf.