5/17/2010 Feature: "Archenemy Rules Revealed"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Awesome!

Cannot wait!

I hope this is better then Giant sized VS & not as broken as some of the Raid decks for Wow.


Cool
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The full rules don't quite capture how fun this product is. I am setting schemes in motion as we speak.
The full rules don't quite capture how fun this product is. I am setting schemes in motion as we speak.



I wonder if there will be an alternate win condition with the Schemes? I hope so.

Thanks for all the hard work guys! I plan on going to this release event for sure!!!


I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
The full rules don't quite capture how fun this product is. I am setting schemes in motion as we speak.



I must gather players to defeat you. Destroy the ARCHENEMY! (Don't worry, defeating you will be a lot of fun.)
Lee Sharpe Data Analyst Wizards of the Coast
Is there any hope of this format being ported to Magic Online anywhere in the near future, or is it too far outside of the box?
I hope this comes out on MTGO someday. Sounds like a lot of fun and would be easier to find players online. 
This sounds like an incredibly fun format. I'm not sure if it wouldn't make the Archenemy too tough to beat, but I just realized it would be fun to to have the allies play normal decks while the Archenemy played an EDH deck complete with General rules. After all, what's an evil overlord without a trusted lieutenant?
Rules Nut Advisor
I'm curious as to whether there'll be some mechanic that makes a game fair (or reasonably fair) with variable numbers of players, or if it's going to work out that you HAVE to have (say) four players to take down this deck, more and it's too easy, less and it's too hard?

A few decent "all opponents" effects in the Scheme decks would have some effect at this. Or just stuff your main deck with Breath of Malfegor effects and burn 'em all out at once!
I'm curious as to whether there'll be some mechanic that makes a game fair (or reasonably fair) with variable numbers of players, or if it's going to work out that you HAVE to have (say) four players to take down this deck, more and it's too easy, less and it's too hard?

A few decent "all opponents" effects in the Scheme decks would have some effect at this. Or just stuff your main deck with Breath of Malfegor effects and burn 'em all out at once!



Well, I can't be certain, but given one of their selling points is "face off against as many of your friends as your kitchen table can hold", I think they've balanced it to work decently for any reasonable number of players. Now, if you throw down against 50 enemies with 1-mana hasters, you'll probably be trounced no matter what schemes you have, but with what they're selling I think we can reasonably expect good gameplay against, say, 3-6 opponents. If you have to get four opponents for a fair game, I for one will be quite disappointed.

Although, I suppose even if there is an "ideal" number of opponents, that number will change drastically based on the decks involved.
Rules Nut Advisor

Well, I can't be certain, but given one of their selling points is "face off against as many of your friends as your kitchen table can hold", I think they've balanced it to work decently for any reasonable number of players. Now, if you throw down against 50 enemies with 1-mana hasters, you'll probably be trounced no matter what schemes you have, but with what they're selling I think we can reasonably expect good gameplay against, say, 3-6 opponents. If you have to get four opponents for a fair game, I for one will be quite disappointed.

Although, I suppose even if there is an "ideal" number of opponents, that number will change drastically based on the decks involved.



Yeah. A naive scheme would simply give the archenemy enough advantages to be able to sorta, kinda, take on a few other players. Which would end up devolving to an "ideal opponents is X" system, where X pretty much would be like your golf handicap - a better player and/or better deck could cope with a higher value of X. What I'd be looking for in the rules is some inherent advantage to playing with only 3, and an inherent disadvantage to playing with 5 (or whatever the figures are). Not too much, but enough so that it's not unplayable.

Yeah. A naive scheme would simply give the archenemy enough advantages to be able to sorta, kinda, take on a few other players. Which would end up devolving to an "ideal opponents is X" system, where X pretty much would be like your golf handicap - a better player and/or better deck could cope with a higher value of X. What I'd be looking for in the rules is some inherent advantage to playing with only 3, and an inherent disadvantage to playing with 5 (or whatever the figures are). Not too much, but enough so that it's not unplayable.



Well, if push comes to shove, a little house-rules jiggering of life totals would probably fix the worst of the possible issues. Regardless, we'll just have to wait and see, both about any rules they haven't mentioned (I don't think there will be, but it's possible) and about how scalable the schemes are.
Rules Nut Advisor
Wooooooooooooo raid decks, the only good thing to come out of the WoW tcg.


Well, if push comes to shove, a little house-rules jiggering of life totals would probably fix the worst of the possible issues. Regardless, we'll just have to wait and see.



Only 40 life for the archenemy? Not 20*opponents? Hmpf
Im not really feeling this.  Shoulda put the money into making ultra-mythics and getting rid of commons.  Tongue out
I will be getting all four for my playgroup.

If one 'hero' plays a dedicated counterspell deck (perhaps two heroes) wouldn't it practically lock the archenemy out?

But, I would like to point out how obviously this is Onyxia's Lair from World of Warcraft CCG.

This actually looks pretty cool.

When we first heard about this, it sounded interesting, but ulimately not for me (I was primarily a Standard player). However, since they I have found a new playgroup and started playing multiplayer...

This article has pretty much sold it to me, as long as the decks arent too expensive over here (UK) and the precons are decent. If I can also pick up some decent Standard-legal cards in them, then it will be hard to stop myself from picking one up.

I wonder if I am going to be able to go to a launch event...

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
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56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Hey this actually looks like it could be fun.

I'm also worried that the Archenemy will have less and less chance as the number of opponents increases; the power of the schemes don't look like they increase enough. Some don't increase in power at all against more opponents. I reckon he should get like 20 life plus 10 for each opponent, at least that way he can't get rushed out so easily.

It seems like a Stifle effect heavy deck will do very well in stopping the schemes; I assume that would work?

EDIT: I feel as if that shouldn't work, that there should a be a rule that says scheme abilities can't be countered by spells or abilities. Seems too bogus and cheap.
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Hey this actually looks like it could be fun.

I'm also worried that the Archenemy will have less and less chance as the number of opponents increases; the power of the schemes don't look like they increase enough. Some don't increase in power at all against more opponents. I reckon he should get like 20 life plus 10 for each opponent, at least that way he can't get rushed out so easily.

It seems like a Stifle effect heavy deck will do very well in stopping the schemes; I assume that would work?

EDIT: I feel as if that shouldn't work, that there should a be a rule that says scheme abilities can't be countered by spells or abilities. Seems too bogus and cheap.



Seems like Stifle would work, he refers to it as a triggered ability that can be responded to by all players.  The nice thing about these types of casual games, though, is they are less competitive than normal Magic games.  I think the players would want to make the game as fun as possible and limit these plays that are deemed too spikey or against the spirit of casual multiplayer.
Hey this actually looks like it could be fun.

I'm also worried that the Archenemy will have less and less chance as the number of opponents increases; the power of the schemes don't look like they increase enough. Some don't increase in power at all against more opponents. I reckon he should get like 20 life plus 10 for each opponent, at least that way he can't get rushed out so easily.

It seems like a Stifle effect heavy deck will do very well in stopping the schemes; I assume that would work?

EDIT: I feel as if that shouldn't work, that there should a be a rule that says scheme abilities can't be countered by spells or abilities. Seems too bogus and cheap.




With Galactus Giant sized VS there was a point where if you teched against Galactus the Aliance was going to win. So we tended to make teams vs Galactus such as JLA, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Teen Titans ect...

That made games fun & interesting. It made games alot closer then if you teched against Galactus. For Wow the first Raid deck was too hard to beat. You almost had to tech against her. Not fun.

I wonder what deck restrictions Arch Enemy will have? With Giant size galactus you could not alter the Galactus deck with cards from other sets. I would imagine 3-4 players Vs Archenemy will be all you can handle but maybe they tested the format for more.






I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
What did this article do for me?

  • It told me how the Schemes worked.

  • It showed pictures of the schemes.

  • It revealed that my fears of schemes that were dependent on having two or more guys was somewhat baseless.

  • It mentioned How to Play it.

  • And it showed pictures of the actual product.


All-in-all, this article made my day. I was almost certainly getting these from the get go, but with these, I have even more reason.
This sounds like an incredibly fun format. I'm not sure if it wouldn't make the Archenemy too tough to beat, but I just realized it would be fun to to have the allies play normal decks while the Archenemy played an EDH deck complete with General rules. After all, what's an evil overlord without a backstabbing bastard of a lieutenant he has to keep an eye on at all times?



FIXED.

(Okay, maybe I've been watching too much Transformers... if that's even possible... okay, it is if we're talking about the new movies, but I'm not...)
starting at 40 health makes felidar sovereign happy.  i bet the archenemy will get some handy ways to cheat creatures into play early, too.
Anyone else a little underwhelmed with the power level of the Archenemy? Check out this alternate format called Titan, that may be more to your liking.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That being said, I can't wait to see what premades they've created to fight off multiple opponents.
:P i just want to see if they have better schemes, but i like the idea of them losing lands with me using a mass LD deck XD
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56859838 wrote:
Well obviously goblins breed at a rate of millions of times per year, thus in a few years they had evolved into a new species... you know or....
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Your asking for proof that the ocean is wet, while your standing on the beach.
56733088 wrote:
Are these rankings all anonymus? Can I go rank everybody I think is mafia with 1 star?
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CORRECTION: I've just been informed that the MSRP of each Archenemy game pack is $19.99 rather than $24.99. The article has been updated accordingly.
CORRECTION: I've just been informed that the MSRP of each Archenemy game pack is $19.99 rather than $24.99. The article has been updated accordingly.



Awesome! As I was almost certainly going to buy at least one this is excellent news for me.
Don't be too smart to have fun
CORRECTION: I've just been informed that the MSRP of each Archenemy game pack is $19.99 rather than $24.99. The article has been updated accordingly.



Much better. Still not sure about getting all four since I don't have much of a playgroup, but I'm far more likely to just get them for collectability's sake at this price. 
Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013
Sounds great.

However:

Any word on supporting the MASSIVELY POPULAR Planechase format?

I thought releasing a plane card at each prerelease was a great model -- it gave a sense of "visiting a new plane", and gave extra incentive to attend prereleases. It slowly increased the card pool for Planechase without putting stress on WOTC to develop an entire set at once.

I would appreciate some indication of what the future holds for the most interesting Magic side product ever produced.
"Make people wait for what they want, and you have power over them. This is as true for merchants and militia as it is for cooks and couples." —Gwendlyn Di Corci
This sounds like an incredibly fun format. I'm not sure if it wouldn't make the Archenemy too tough to beat, but I just realized it would be fun to to have the allies play normal decks while the Archenemy played an EDH deck complete with General rules. After all, what's an evil overlord without a backstabbing bastard of a lieutenant he has to keep an eye on at all times?



FIXED.

(Okay, maybe I've been watching too much Transformers... if that's even possible... okay, it is if we're talking about the new movies, but I'm not...)



Of course you don't have to keep watch at all times. Either the lieutenant is smart enough to let you finish conquering the world before launching his coup, minimizing the work he has to do, or he's so incompetent that he's not worth the effort of watching.

...I seem to have gotten a little off-topic. Man, Archenemy looks awesome. I'll probably pick up one or two.
Rules Nut Advisor
I'm a bit confused.
So I'm guessing that you set a scheme in motion every turn (by turning it face up), but if you set on ongoing scheme in motion, and it's still in motion your next turn, do you set another scheme in motion?

And I really hope the "max-four-copies-per-card" rule doesn't apply for the schemes
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From the article:

If you want to customize the scheme deck, there are only two rules to follow: the deck must have at least 20 scheme cards and it can't include more than two of any single card.



It looks interesting, I might try it out. Maybe. Probably not. But maybe.
I'm excited about this casual format...
but I'm a little disappointed about the fixed 40 lives for the ARCHENEMY against 2 or 3 players it could be enough against more it will probably be not enough.
i suppose that i will add some house rules for larger games in order to avoid such problems

I have a few interrogations about figths
When the Archenemy attacks, Does he choose one defending player or does every players be able to defend against him?
How can the Archenemy block enough creature when 3 or more player attacks?

Seems to be awesome.
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57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
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56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
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Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
I'm excited about this casual format...
but I'm a little disappointed about the fixed 40 lives for the ARCHENEMY against 2 or 3 players it could be enough against more it will probably be not enough.
i suppose that i will add some house rules for larger games in order to avoid such problems

I have a few interrogations about figths
When the Archenemy attacks, Does he choose one defending player or does every players be able to defend against him?
How can the Archenemy block enough creature when 3 or more player attacks?





Seeing as it is casual, I'm sure your playgroup could scale the lifetotals to something that seems to work out every time.

 
this seems like a super awesome format.  i'm going to have to wait for the decklists and all the schemes to be spoiled to decide if I want more than one, but i'm pretty sure i'm getting at least the one with the dragons. 
Gravely intoning its name and flavor text and then cackling madly is optional.


I think i'm going to be doing one or both in the most malevolent tone I can manage every time I play this format.  The names and flavor text of the ones in this article are all pretty satisfactorily evil sounding, I approve.
This is the happy swamp. Love it. I am red/blue, I think logically and act impulsively.
Awe, judging by the deck packaging picture at the end of the article, it looks like blue gets the shaft again All the colours are featured in the decks at least twice, except for blue which is only in one.

Even in Planechase Blue was only splashed in the Artifact deck. Poor ol' bluey.
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An easy way to scale up the power of the archenemy would be to allow him to play multiple scheme cards per turn based on the number of opponents he faced. Say, 1 scheme card for 2-3 opponents, 2 for 4-5 opponents, etc... Or whatever is necessary to make the game competitive.

It sounds like the archenemys scheme deck never runs out because cards are put on the bottom of the pile after they are played. I think a good house rule would be to have a discard pile for the scheme deck and then reshuffle them all when the last card is played. That way the scheme cards don't get replayed in the same order the second time through.

BTW, I really like that first piece of art with the dragon and the girl. Sweet!
I'll have to wait until actual lists are released, but I admit that I'm a little disappointed. When I learned that there was a (is deck the right word?) deck themed "Assemble the Doomsday Device" I assumed that each pack would be more self contained. That each over-sized card would somehow build toward a single win (lose?) condition. But if you can mix and match cards between themes, how thematic can the cards really be? Can I remove half of the Doomsday machine and replace it with Undead Apocalypse cards? Apparently. Do I need to look toward the included 60 card standard sized deck for the flavor?

I'm sure my disappointment is due to ignorance.
An easy way to scale up the power of the archenemy would be to allow him to play multiple scheme cards per turn based on the number of opponents he faced. Say, 1 scheme card for 2-3 opponents, 2 for 4-5 opponents, etc... Or whatever is necessary to make the game competitive.

It sounds like the archenemys scheme deck never runs out because cards are put on the bottom of the pile after they are played. I think a good house rule would be to have a discard pile for the scheme deck and then reshuffle them all when the last card is played. That way the scheme cards don't get replayed in the same order the second time through.

BTW, I really like that first piece of art with the dragon and the girl. Sweet!



I assure you, if you have to go through the scheme deck a second time as the archenemy, you are doing it wrong. Crush them faster! ;-P
I agree shuffling it would be not only more interesting, but flavourful. If you'd just gone through all 20 of your schemes and not won, would you really go "OK this time I'll do exactly what I did last time, through all 20 schemes, in the same order, they'll never expect that!"
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
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