Better Striker: Sorc or Elemental Empowerment Genasi Wizard

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This is a question that I just wanted to pose to the Char Op boards simply to discuss. I just want to know if with one feat, an Str/Int Genasi Wizard is better than a Sorcerer at being a Striker. I think it might be close since Wizards have better dailies but Sorcerers have better single target at wills damage-wise. I'm not sure how good the encounter powers of the Wizard are in terms of dealing damage, but my guess is they're about equal. Sorcerers are a tougher bunch though and have additional bonuses for having a certain soul. To me, it's about equal, with Sorcerer coming out slightly on top due to better survivability.
not even a compitition sorcerer is all about the damage. I ended up using blazing starfall all the time even though i was a chaos sorcerer at lvl one with say a 18 cha and 16 dex i could do 1D4+7 damage to a burst 1 within 10...and it just keeps getting better
Given the fact that AE Strikers aren't really ideal to begin with? I'd rather have the Wizard. By a large margin. He gets free rituals, cantrips, some of the best dailies in the game, and you can work the stat array to get every feat an Arcane striker could want for the price of doing 1 less damage then an optimized Sorc at Heroic, 3 less damage Paragon, and 5 less damage at Epic, while inflicting immobilized/stun/daze/slow/etc with nearly every attack.

Oh, and Wizard PPs aren't God-awful. >.> That is just a personal thing though, I really dislike every single Sorc PP.
My wife's character (eladrin Wizard level 9) deals 2d4+13 with magic missile! The only problem is that I wish she chose more spells with a great spread.

Also, is there any benefit for a wand of accuracy wizard to take any Conjuration/Summoning spells or should they be left to the Conjurer?
A gensai wizard is adding 2 stats to damage, like a sorcerer and has access to better dailies and arguably better encounters. Over time, yes the sorcs passive increases (since it become X + stat) but I think gensai wizards more than give them a run for the money, and i think overall are better characters. 
A genasi wizard has no incentive to take strength besides elemental empowerment, though...I haven't looked at this in any detail, but I'd think the need for other attributes for feat qualification and perhaps riders would make elemental empowerment on a wizard less of a damage boost in practice than the sorceror, who gets a lot of synergy out of the secondary damage stat.
A genasi wizard has no incentive to take strength besides elemental empowerment, though...I haven't looked at this in any detail, but I'd think the need for other attributes for feat qualification and perhaps riders would make elemental empowerment on a wizard less of a damage boost in practice than the sorceror, who gets a lot of synergy out of the secondary damage stat.

14 str, 13 wis/dex, 16 int, and 10 Con/Cha will get you qualified for every feat you could want (you could drop CHA to 8 and bump con to 12 or vice versa). Like I said, it ends up being 1 less damage during heroic, 3 less during Paragon, and 5 less during Epic. For the cost of a feat and either some power restrictions or your weapon enchant, you end up doing nearly equal AE striker damage (which is the worst kind of striker damage in terms of mitigating incoming damage) while still being one of the best controllers in the game, with all that entails.

I'd rather have the Wizard.
Remember a sorc also penetrates resists so there are times when the sorc will outdpr the wizard by a large margn

Enlarge spell is a nice consolation 
Given the fact that AE Strikers aren't really ideal to begin with?

Pfft. AOE Strikers are amazing.

Sure,  you might deal 80% of the damage of a single target person (and that's debateable, my sorc does a lot more damage than the party rogue even to single targets), but dealing .8 damage to four targets is 3.2x the top DPR in the game.

Genasi Wizards single-handedly saved the class; it's the only kind of wizard I'd play. They're still not as good at striking as sorcerers, though, because sorcerers have tons of double hitting powers.

The only thing better than adding your strength modifier to all damage rolls is being able to do it twice.

3x3 AOE that kills my allies or 5x5 AOE that only hurts enemies?

BRB, I need to think about this...

It was a much closer contest before the latest batch of errata ganked the sorcerer.

Worth noting though is that I think both classes are strictly better played as hybrids than pures.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
Given the fact that AE Strikers aren't really ideal to begin with?

Pfft. AOE Strikers are amazing.

Sure,  you might deal 80% of the damage of a single target person (and that's debateable, my sorc does a lot more damage than the party rogue even to single targets), but dealing .8 damage to four targets is 3.2x the top DPR in the game.

Genasi Wizards single-handedly saved the class; it's the only kind of wizard I'd play. They're still not as good at striking as sorcerers, though, because sorcerers have tons of double hitting powers.

The only thing better than adding your strength modifier to all damage rolls is being able to do it twice.


Comparing optimized strikers it is more like "doing 1/5 of 5 enemies hp vs killing one enemy." A single-target striker reduced the enemy force's effectivness by 20%, vs not reducing its effectivencess at all. That is a big difference to an a tough encounter. If your Rogue isn't single-target out damaging you, then the Rogue isn't optimized, or at least not as optimized as your sorc.

And Wizards don't have double-hitting powers....? Plus they basically have the best dailies in the game. Three times a day they essenetially have an "I-win" button for an encounter. The things I have seen a smartly played Wizard do are insane. Controllers are frightening. A Sorc who has to hit 3 targets to do 1/2 as much damage as a Ranger (and, again, not actually killing any of them)? Not so much.
3x3 AOE that kills my allies or 5x5 AOE that only hurts enemies?

BRB, I need to think about this...

It was a much closer contest before the latest batch of errata ganked the sorcerer.

Worth noting though is that I think both classes are strictly better played as hybrids than pures.

Also this.

Unrelated: I get why you'd say that about Wizards (though I think some of the benefits they lose are good for a party, not so much for the chracter), but why Sorcs?
Wizards, hands down.  You will lose 2 damage at paragon and 4 at epic, sure, BUT - your powers' bursts/blasts are bigger, they have more dice, and sometimes they attack multiple times.  Wizards have better encounter and daily powers, and not just because of the nasty riders.

I mean, let's pick a middle-of-the-road (progression-wise) level:  Level 13.  There are no sorcerer encounter powers that come close to matching up with prismatic burst:  3d6 is the damage roll over a burst 2 that blinds.  Then, move to level 15 with Prismatic Beams.  It's a CLOSE BURST 5 that attacks enemies only and hits twice for damage, once for an effect (daze).  That's twin strike against a lot of things, all at once.

Edit:  I guess I didn't consider locking yourself into elementals via a weapon, but that doesn't seem like an issue that'll gimp the character.
Unrelated: I get why you'd say that about Wizards (though I think some of the benefits they lose are good for a party, not so much for the chracter), but why Sorcs?



Because I'm a Sorc|Barb fanboy.  Fantastic AC/reflex boost and I strongly prefer Barb dailies over Sorc ones.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
Genasi Wizards single-handedly saved the class; it's the only kind of wizard I'd play. They're still not as good at striking as sorcerers, though, because sorcerers have tons of double hitting powers.



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Dark Sun DM starting October 18th 2010 Level 4 Tiefling Orbizard Level 3 Tiefling Telepath Psion

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D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

Remember a sorc also penetrates resists so there are times when the sorc will outdpr the wizard by a large margn



Note, however, that a genasi wizard with Elemental Empowerment applies its damage bonus to attacks with the acid, cold, fire, lightning, AND thunder keywords, so they are much less likely to run into an enemy that has resists (or immunities, something sorcs have a harder time getting around) against all of their posible damage types.

Here's what I'd say are the major advantages that the sorcerer gets that is not shared by the wizard:

Some 'rebound hit' damage effects.


Resistance penetration of dubious utility (specially since the wizard will often be using two elemental types if they are using a weapon enchant)


Daggers as an implement for free, so you can abuse weapliments more easily.


Some conditional sorcerer soul benefits


A couple of really standout (and poachable) utilities


A better initiative mod (if you're a DEX based Sorc - though you lose out on having a decent basic attack without melee training)


More race selections, since you're not limited to genasi.  There are some pretty good racial synergies out there, particularly for Dragonboard Dragon sorcs.


A high Will NAD, probably the best NAD to have as one of your top ones.

A rare few powers that let you double dip your good static damage (flame spiral, for example)


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Here's what the wizard gets that the Sorc doesn't


Way better power selection, except possibly for at-wills, with a lot more choices period.  Dailies are much, much better.  Powers generally do as much or more dice of damage, come with status effects, and/or are party friendly or feature larger blast areas. 

The ability to double-buff your at will and encounter area size (enlarge spell is now wizard only). 

More powers that have an effect size larger than 3x3 out of the box.

Better PP selection, as has been mentioned.

Your hybridization options are much stronger (sorcs do not hybrid nearly as well) if you should choose to get that route

Larger implement selection

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Overall, the wizard takes it.  The slightly lower damage is more than made up for by the power selections you can grab, and the fact that you truly are a much better AOE striker, because of your larger blasts and bursts, is the real swing factor for me.  While it's true that the sorc can out-DPR a blaster on single target damage if they do something like try to optimize dragon frost, you're both going to be left in the dust by true single target strikers. Further, unlike the Sorceror, you can chose to put some of your power selection into Solo-fight oriented powers (either powers that have fantastic single-target control effects, or powers that have encounter-long effects for the long slug fests vs the giant bag of hitpoints) so you are still viable when there's only 1 big bad, where as the sorcerer is often going to be reduced to flinging his single target at-will choice over and over and crying.

 




This is a huge exagerration though.  A twin striking ranger will certainly do more damage vs 1 target than a sorc.  But not twice as much damage, except at the very bleeding edges of optimization, which is not where most people play.  The Sorcerer will be ahead of the game if he's blasting at 2 targets.   And he will be far ahead of the game if he's hitting 3+, which happens early often enough for it to matter.  If the Sorc was hitting 5 targets every round, the relative DPR would be insane - the ranger might put down his target first, but by the time the Ranger killed his 2nd target, the Sorc would have killed all of his.

Still, I give the win to the Wizard, because the wizard can do that and then some.
Comparing optimized strikers it is more like "doing 1/5 of 5 enemies hp vs killing one enemy."

That's not even close to being accurate.

A level 3 ranger will deal roughly 2d12+1d8+14 = 31.5 to one target. A level 3 sorcerer will deal 1d8+1d6+20 = 28 damage to three targets.
A rare few powers that let you double dip your good static damage (flame spiral, for example)

Not that rare, and ssh, don't mention them.

People might post stupid photos because they don't understand what you mean.


Worth noting though is that I think both classes are strictly better played as hybrids than pures.



This is true for a lot of classes.

Ultimately I'd rather have the damage-focused wizard over the sorc. The sorcerer may do more damage but the wizard has many times more utility. Arcane Gate alone is enough to tip the scale IMO.
That's not even close to being accurate.

A level 3 ranger will deal roughly 2d12+1d8+14 = 31.5 to one target. A level 3 sorcerer will deal 1d8+1d6+20 = 28 damage to three targets.

A retarded level 3 Ranger, sure. We were discussing an optimized one. Hint: They don't use 1d12 weapons for any optimal build, and they don't waste a feat on 1 average DPR.

And it is accurate if you include daily and encounter powers (you know, the average performance of the whole class? Rather then "At-Will" DPR). If you don't get why AE striking is poor I'm not going to aruge with you, eventually you're bound to watch a Ranger kill two things in two rounds, and the Sorc will get lucky and kill two things in two rounds, only both of those these things will die in the second round and will have gotten another turn, increasing the enemies DPR by 50%. A Striker's job is to kill things quickly. Out of all the Strikers, Sorcs are the worst at that objective (barring some PHB3 class that I haven't played).

And I say that having played pre-Nerf sorcs to 30 in two campaigns (Wild and Dragon Magic). They just aren't that good.
Comparing optimized strikers it is more like "doing 1/5 of 5 enemies hp vs killing one enemy."

That's not even close to being accurate.

A level 3 ranger will deal roughly 2d12+1d8+14 = 31.5 to one target. A level 3 sorcerer will deal 1d8+1d6+20 = 28 damage to three targets.



Secondary targets are worth roughly 50% of the damage to primary targets.
So if a Sorceror catches...
-- 2 targets: 28 + 0.5 * 1 * 28 = 42
-- 3 targets: 28 + 0.5 * 2 * 28 = 56
-- 4 targets: 28 + 0.5 * 3 * 28 = 70

So while it's favourable, it's not absolutely skyrocketing. In particulary because Sorcerors lack the straight single target nova capability of Rangers, Barbarians or Rogues to take a mob of the board straight away.
Sorcerors are absolutely fine Strikes, you just need to be aware of their strength and weaknesses when play with one.

On topic:
Either is fine - if you want to melt faces play a Sorc. If you want more tricks and good control while still doing top tier damage, play a Wiz. (I strongly recommend 14 Str / 10 Con / 12 Dex / 18 Int / 12 Wis / 8 Cha and just take Durable along the way.)

PS: Alcestis... please stop flaming people without reason and on basis of wrong facts. Thank you.
My sorcerer was up to 18 when i stopped and really had no problem we had a avenger, barbarian and rogue for strikers. If i crited i did damage on par with the barbarian and my average damage (also factor i was attacking nads) I was hitting more than them. So maybe they needed to be optimized more but heck i was using enlarge spell (cant anymore :/ ) to make a blast 2 1D4 +28 at will, oh and battle mage to help my allies. Not to mention there are a lot of utilities that take you out of a fight if you need and some flying abilities (there is a at will that would let your allies move as if flying) But anyways if the sorcerer cant kill them right out they definatly will put the hurt on multiple enemies making it easier for the other strikers in the party to clean up. To me I wouldnt want to play a cookie cutter "uber" wizard that is purely based on one race and one feat...what if the feat gets changed?
That's not even close to being accurate.

A level 3 ranger will deal roughly 2d12+1d8+14 = 31.5 to one target. A level 3 sorcerer will deal 1d8+1d6+20 = 28 damage to three targets.

A retarded level 3 Ranger, sure. We were discussing an optimized one. Hint: They don't use 1d12 weapons for any optimal build, and they don't waste a feat on 1 average DPR.

And it is accurate if you include daily and encounter powers (you know, the average performance of the whole class? Rather then "At-Will" DPR). If you don't get why AE striking is poor I'm not going to aruge with you, eventually you're bound to watch a Ranger kill two things in two rounds, and the Sorc will get lucky and kill two things in two rounds, only both of those these things will die in the second round and will have gotten another turn, increasing the enemies DPR by 50%. A Striker's job is to kill things quickly. Out of all the Strikers, Sorcs are the worst at that objective (barring some PHB3 class that I haven't played).

And I say that having played pre-Nerf sorcs to 30 in two campaigns (Wild and Dragon Magic). They just aren't that good.

If you were playing a retarded sorcerer, sure. (To use your own words.)

That wasn't at-will DPR, that was a comparison of the two best encounter powers available at level 3, as the damage should have made perfectly clear. I was going to break it down more for you, but you've obviously already made up your mind that rangers "deal five times more damage" than sorcerers, so it'd be like talking to a brick wall.

In actuality, as I said before, sorcerers do about 80% of the single target damage. I think this is better than dealing single target damage, but people can rightfully disagree over it. But don't  make silly claims like rangers deal five times the single target damage.

Note: And a Level 3 genasi wizard will do about 25.5 in a close burst 2 when he tries to be a striker. He'd need to hit about 6 people to break even with a sorcerer.
Note: And a Level 3 genasi wizard will do about 25.5 in a close burst 2 when he tries to be a striker. He'd need to hit about 6 people to break even with a sorcerer.



Is that 6 enemies assuming the Sorc was hitting 3?  Because a sorc catching 3 non-minion enemies (DPR on minions is irrelevant, only hit% counts) and 0 allies with a 3x3 AOE is a very unrealistic assumption.

If you want to talk numbers, it's best to talk about ones that are actually relevant.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
If you were playing a retarded sorcerer, sure. (To use your own words.)

That wasn't at-will DPR, that was a comparison of the two best encounter powers available at level 3, as the damage should have made perfectly clear. I was going to break it down more for you, but you've obviously already made up your mind that rangers "deal five times more damage" than sorcerers, so it'd be like talking to a brick wall.

In actuality, as I said before, sorcerers do about 80% of the single target damage. I think this is better than dealing single target damage, but people can rightfully disagree over it. But don't  make silly claims like rangers deal five times the single target damage.

Note: And a Level 3 genasi wizard will do about 25.5 in a close burst 2 when he tries to be a striker. He'd need to hit about 6 people to break even with a sorcerer.

...It was a comparison of Ruffling Sting (Minor action attack) vs... what now? Have you played a Ranger? And obviously I'm discussing an optimized Sorc vs an optimized Ranger. Rangers will kill things in the same number of rounds, only they will kill something each round. That is just straight up better.

Just think about it. Level 1. Jaws of the Wolf > One creature dead. Sorc goes > Ice Javelins > three creatures bloodied, maybe. Ranger goes > Off-Hand Strike+Twin Strike > 3/4 dead. At level 3 you'd add in Ruffling Sting, either in the last round or this one, and dead! Two creatures dead, one each round. Sorcs cannot do that without crits (I've tried, believe me, and that was before they were gutted by the recent updates/errata). Sorcs aren't neccesarily a terrible class, they are simply the worst striker at preventing damage by inflicting the best condition quickly: Dead. And again, I've played one from 1-30 twice. I'd much rather have the Wizard. In addition to doing very comparable damage (again, 1 less in Heroic, 3 less at Paragon, 5 less at epic, not a whole lot. Oh, and it is ally friendly) you get to inflict some horrible status effect with basically ever attack.
Note: And a Level 3 genasi wizard will do about 25.5 in a close burst 2 when he tries to be a striker. He'd need to hit about 6 people to break even with a sorcerer.



Is that 6 enemies assuming the Sorc was hitting 3?  Because a sorc catching 3 non-minion enemies (DPR on minions is irrelevant, only hit% counts) and 0 allies with a 3x3 AOE is a very unrealistic assumption.

If you want to talk numbers, it's best to talk about ones that are actually relevant.

Fire Shroud vs. Flame Spiral.

It's not a 3x3 AOE, it's a close burst 2 with Flame Spiral, so a 5x5 for three targets, and then a 3x3 secondary hit for everyone around you. It's actually pretty reasonable to assume three targets as an average, based on my experience playing a fire sorcerer.

Fire shroud deals less damage, but has a higher AOE.
I think Genasi Wizards are better than sorcerers slightly, partly because of expand spell. But also because the wizard spells tend to give you some free control in addition to your dps.

What I think most people miss is that Tiefling Wizards tend to do as much dps as Genasi Wizards and don't have to pump strength. The problem with pumping strength is that you want dex and wisdom for some feats, and con and cha are ok for a few things too, this is especially true if you want to crit on 19s at level 21. Tiefling Wizards do about the same damage and can put an 8 in strength.

It does mean you either need fire spells or a flaming staff though.

Hellfire Blood: +1 attack, +1 damage with feat and fire spells. Untyped bonus. (Tiefling)
Hellfire Arcanist: +2/+3/+4 damage with fire, and your fear spells get a minor buff.

New tiefling racial power with the most recent update helps a bit.
There is also a Tiefling source book about to come out, or maybe it is already out.

Here is my Tiefling Wizard from RPGA for reference:

Ferno Fendelstick!, level 12
Tiefling, Wizard, Unseen Mage
Build: War Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Background: Thay (Thay Benefit)


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 14.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 11.


AC: 25 Fort: 20 Reflex: 24 Will: 22
HP: 76 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19


TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +17, Diplomacy +13, Religion +17, History +17


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Bluff +10, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +8, Heal +8, Insight +8, Intimidate +9, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +11, Streetwise +8, Thievery +9, Athletics +5


 


FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Hellfire Blood
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Staff)
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: Destructive Wizardry
Level 8: White Lotus Riposte
Level 10: Hellfire Arcanist
Level 11: Enlarge Spell
Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte


 


POWERS


Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst


Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave


Wizard encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation


Wizard daily 1: Summon Fire Warrior


Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Phantom Chasm


Wizard utility 2: Shield


Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Jump


Wizard encounter 3: Fire Shroud


Wizard daily 5: Summon Abyssal Maw


Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Bigby's Icy Grasp


Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape


Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Fire Shield


Wizard encounter 7: Fire Burst


Wizard daily 9: Firescythe


Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Wall of Fire


Wizard utility 10: Blur


Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Witch's Reversal


 


ITEMS


Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Amulet of Protection +2, Potion of Healing (heroic tier), Dagger w/Light on it, Veteran's Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Circlet of Second Chances (heroic tier), Magic Staff +3, Staff of Ruin +3, Ebony Fly (heroic tier), Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier), Viper Belt (heroic tier), Phylactery of Action (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Fireheart Tattoo (heroic tier), Skull Mask (heroic tier)


RITUALS


Tenser's Floating Disk, Make Whole
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
Fire the most common immune/resist on monsters, though (especially at epic).

Unrelated: Some reason you haven't picked your free Rituals for being a Wizard? I find them really useful in RPGA (Comrade's Succor just makes things sooo much easier).
Fire Shroud vs. Flame Spiral.

It's not a 3x3 AOE, it's a close burst 2 with Flame Spiral, so a 5x5 for three targets, and then a 3x3 secondary hit for everyone around you. It's actually pretty reasonable to assume three targets as an average, based on my experience playing a fire sorcerer.

Fire shroud deals less damage, but has a higher AOE.

7x7 for 1d8+(Sorc mods -1))+5 ongoing or 8x8 (assuming Enlarge Spell) 1d8-2+(Sorc mods -1)+ongoing. The sorc is capped at 3 targets, the Wizard can hit up to 48 (not terribly likely, I admit, but you could easily catch 5-6 in there, especially if it was Enlarged).

Which demonstrates the point very crisply. If AE Striking is good, let us just posit that, Wizards burst and blasts are 1.) Bigger and 2.) Ally friendly, so no restrictions on using them to maximum effect. Hitting one more target for a Gensai Wizard will probably result in the same or slightly more damage as a Sorc, and if there is one more target to hit, chances are a Wizard can hit it.

Even assuming the balance was that close, Gensai Wizard gets Stormsoul+Elemental Echo. That puts the per-encounter damage over on the Wizard's side.
It's not a 3x3 AOE, it's a close burst 2 with Flame Spiral, so a 5x5 for three targets, and then a 3x3 secondary hit for everyone around you. It's actually pretty reasonable to assume three targets as an average, based on my experience playing a fire sorcerer.

Fire shroud deals less damage, but has a higher AOE.



My mistake, you weren't making unrealistic assumptions about targets hit, you were making unrealistic assumptions about the encounter only being one round long.

But if you want to talk encounter powers keep in mind that the wizard has a 9x9 ally friendly level 1 encounter power (Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation Enlarged).  Which autokills minions.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win

People might post stupid photos because they don't understand what you mean.




Eh, okay, I'll bite.  I assume this means you were being sarcastic about Genasi wizards saving the class for you?  Because otherwise it would mean you don't understand how to play one of the most powerful classes in the game.  Alternately, you might just prefer saying a really big number every turn, as that's how you have fun.  Which is certainly a valid playstyle, as the objective of any game is to have fun, but it means you're missing out on a lot of potentially fun things.  Either way, the key here is not to have an emotional reaction to what is probably a joke.  On the internet.

Anyways, I believe THAT is the sentiment that the picture was attempting to reflect:  If Genasi Wizards saved the class for you, then you've never seen or played an effective wizard.

You DID go back and tried to justify one of your statements, though.  That was nice.

Back on topic:  Generally bigger areas, bigger dice, and more powerful effects coupled with a near-identical modifier should put wizards over the top.  Even ignoring the effects, which are controlling rather than striking, the wider areas offers more opportunities to damage more enemies.  Especially with Enlarge Spell.  Well, except for low heroic.  At low heroic tier, a sorcerer will probably outdamage a wizard.  Once you get past that, though, then re-examine the level 3 powers.

Sorcerer:  Generally 3x3 areas, 2 dice of damage.
Wizard:  6x6/7x7 areas possible, generally 1 die of damage (ignoring effects)

While the sorcerer will be rolling more dice, the static mods will be about the same on both fronts (wizard at -2 if enlarge spell is used), but the wizard will be attacking 2 and a half times the size on the battlefield.

When you go upwards from mid heroic, the wizard powers, if you're picking them to strike, keep getting better with respect to sorcerer powers.  Level 3, the damage dice were in favor of the sorcerer, with areas in favor of the wizard.

Level 5:  Nothing the sorcerer has can even come close to stinking cloud.  It's an encounter long, forced movement-abusing monstrosity.

Level 7:  Largest sorcerer area is a 5x5, wizards will be able to achieve a 7x7 and have the same number and size of die roll.  Icing on the cake here is that a wizard (with the acid-based cloud spell) will deal intelligence modifier damage to any enemy that enters or starts in the zone, letting you abuse forced-movement shenanigans.

Level 9 would probably go to the sorcerer, as the wizard's most powerful spells at that level are pretty controllery.  But in paragon, the Wizard starts to pull away even further, especially given the innate superiority of wizard Paragon Paths.  And at this point, so much of the damage from both classes come from feats and items available to both that their damage modifiers will be nearly identical.
Fire the most common immune/resist on monsters, though (especially at epic).

Unrelated: Some reason you haven't picked your free Rituals for being a Wizard? I find them really useful in RPGA (Comrade's Succor just makes things sooo much easier).



Yeah you probably want a feat to get around fire resistance (there is a pretty decent tiefling one) but its certainly a problem. I found that my genasi build used fire shroud, scorching burst and orbmaster's incendiary detonation anyways so it wasn't a big departure. It is a pretty good idea to take something like thunderwave so that you have an option against fire resistant creatures. This plus high knowledge skills has served me well in that regard.

The lack of rituals was just me forgetting about them. I will probably grab them when I update for level 13 which I hit recently but never levelled into.
 
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
Yeah, but genasi are HAWT.
Level 9 would probably go to the sorcerer, as the wizard's most powerful spells at that level are pretty controllery.  But in paragon, the Wizard starts to pull away even further, especially given the innate superiority of wizard Paragon Paths.  And at this point, so much of the damage from both classes come from feats and items available to both that their damage modifiers will be nearly identical.

I dunno, you get all your mods to Wall of Fire and it lasts the whole encounter. Prime the Fire and Winds of Change will have a hard time competing with that, assuming you use it in the right encounter.

Oh! And Succubus. How do you factor in dominating each creature in an encounter (Charge your ally! And provoke OAs from every one of my allies....).
Fire the most common immune/resist on monsters, though (especially at epic).

Advantage, sorcerer, by a long shot.

Against the rare fire immune, you can just use a fire horn, which is cheap by epic.

Fire Shroud vs. Flame Spiral.

It's not a 3x3 AOE, it's a close burst 2 with Flame Spiral, so a 5x5 for three targets, and then a 3x3 secondary hit for everyone around you. It's actually pretty reasonable to assume three targets as an average, based on my experience playing a fire sorcerer.

Fire shroud deals less damage, but has a higher AOE.

7x7 for 1d8+(Sorc mods -1))+5 ongoing or 8x8 (assuming Enlarge Spell) 1d8-2+(Sorc mods -1)+ongoing. The sorc is capped at 3 targets, the Wizard can hit up to 48 (not terribly likely, I admit, but you could easily catch 5-6 in there, especially if it was Enlarged).

Which demonstrates the point very crisply. If AE Striking is good, let us just posit that, Wizards burst and blasts are 1.) Bigger and 2.) Ally friendly, so no restrictions on using them to maximum effect. Hitting one more target for a Gensai Wizard will probably result in the same or slightly more damage as a Sorc, and if there is one more target to hit, chances are a Wizard can hit it.

Even assuming the balance was that close, Gensai Wizard gets Stormsoul+Elemental Echo. That puts the per-encounter damage over on the Wizard's side.

You're still pretty far off, but at least I understand why you're wrong now.

1) Sorcerers get to add their strength modifier to all damage rolls. This means both the primary and the secondary roll for flame spiral. As well as a second set of damage modifiers.

2) Flame Spiral is enemies-only, which means you didn't even bother reading the power.

3) No cheating with racials.
Eh, okay, I'll bite.  I assume this means you were being sarcastic about Genasi wizards saving the class for you?

No, I meant that literally. Normal wizards are so bad compared with sorcerers that only genasi keep them in the game.

Because otherwise it would mean you don't understand how to play one of the most powerful classes in the game.

I started off as a wizard. Then I killed him off and re-rolled a sorcerer, and have been much happier ever since.

You DID go back and tried to justify one of your statements, though.  That was nice.

These are all very old arguments. If you feel like enlightening yourself as to why sorcerers are better, go read through the archives.

While the sorcerer will be rolling more dice, the static mods will be about the same on both fronts (wizard at -2 if enlarge spell is used), but the wizard will be attacking 2 and a half times the size on the battlefield.

No. You're missing the key point. Many sorcerer powers hit the same target twice. So you get to add (depending on the power) three or four stat modifiers of damage to a single target.

If you don't understand why this is so good, think about Twin Strike for a while.
You're still pretty far off, but at least I understand why you're wrong now.

1) Sorcerers get to add their strength modifier to all damage rolls. This means both the primary and the secondary roll for flame spiral. As well as a second set of damage modifiers.

2) Flame Spiral is enemies-only, which means you didn't even bother reading the power.

3) No cheating with racials.

1.) Uh, I know that? I played one from 1-30? Twice? How about the fact that Flame Spiral is used up till early epic because it is the only Sorc power nearly that good? And, again, if there are more targets to hit, the Wizard can hit them and just wins in the damage race automatically. And he will hit them, because his burst covers more ground, so...

2.) I know the power by heart. How many powers do Sorcs have that are good and enemy only? Yeah.

3.) Um, considering we are comparing a Gensai Wizard to a Sorc, how is that cheating? Do Rangers not get Twin Strike in your comparisons? "No cheating with things the combo in question gets by default." Yeah, right, GL with that.

And Gensai Wizards aren't restricted to Fire, Tieflings are. Gensai Wizards have no problem with fire immune monsters, so the Sorc gets no advantage there.

I really think you're allowing you personal dislike of a Wizard you played once to color your opinion here. A Gensai Wizard will do more damage due to bigger bursts/blasts if there are enemies to hit with them (assumption: AE striking is good. You said it was). They are better against solos due to status effects. They have superior PP options. Given feats, racials, etc Gensai will hit more and do more damage, if you count the whole encounter and damage to every monster equally. You can personally like the Sorcerer more, but insisting that it is mechanically superior, especially right now after its Paragon and Epic options for optimizing were gutted, is a pretty large stretch.
2.) I know the power by heart. How many powers do Sorcs have that are good and enemy only? Yeah.

I used Blazing Pyre at level 1... there's plenty of other ones. The key takeaway point is the number of sorcerer powers that hit the same target twice.

3.) Um, considering we are comparing a Gensai Wizard to a Sorc, how is that cheating? Do Rangers not get Twin Strike in your comparisons? "No cheating with things the combo in question gets by default." Yeah, right, GL with that.

Then throw in Dragonborn breath by comparison. It's just silly to say that Genasi get firepulse as if other races don't exist.

And Gensai Wizards aren't restricted to Fire, Tieflings are. Gensai Wizards have no problem with fire immune monsters, so the Sorc gets no advantage there.

I've yet to encounter a fire immune monster. Plenty of fire resistant ones, which my sorcerer penetrates, but no fire immune ones yet. I have both thunder and fire penetration on my dragon guardian, so not all of my powers are fire in any event.

I have nothing against Sorcs, but Wizards are head and shoulders better imo, in almost every way.  If all you're comparing is at-will DPR only against a single target in a vaccuum without feats, items, or other powers in effect, then sure, the Sorc wins.  Barely.  Otherwise Wizards get the nod when it comes to raw power, and it isn't even close when you get into utility.

My favorite Genasi Wizard build doesn't even take Elemental Empowerment until mid Paragon, and frankly doesn't need to.  My usual starting stats (after racial mods) are 12str (Yes, TWELVE str), 10con, 13dex, 20int, 13wis, 8cha.  I obviously don't go for saving throw lockdowns, but damage and EoNT control effects.  This stat spread gives you all the benefits of full Int, enough dex and wis to get all the important "strikerish" feats, and allows you to pump Str every stat bump.  It ends up with 20str and 28int, or +14 damage in stat mods.  Your usual Sorc ends up with either 26/26 or 24/28 for a total of +16 damage in stat mods (but -1 to hit from a full primary stat build).  +2 damage in Epic is chump change, and each class shares the same options for other damage bumps.

Wizard tricks like Wizard's Fury, zones, and summons give Wizards a huge nudge in the damage department.  Combine those with Arcane Mastery in Epic and those tricks become part of every encounter.  This doesn't even count encounter wide control effects if you want to take advantage of saving throw penalties.

It isn't fair, but Wizards are just plain better, and they don't even need EE to be that way (but it certainly doesn't hurt).  For the record, the biggest damage related bonus for being a Genasi Wizard is NOT Elemental Empowerment, it's Promise of Storm. 
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