Darth Vader, Swordmage|Defenderlock

246 posts / 0 new
Last post
The build doesn't have errors. Though yes like Scholar said, a more in-depth talk about their thoughts on the build wouldn't hurt now would it? The build obviously isn't an overnight one that someone who was half-asleep thought of.  As obviously a lot of book work went to looking for the right "Gears" to make the "Machine" run very smoothley.

EDIT: Lets try not making this a mini-war on someone's thread who put much work into making such a intricate character to be presented now shall we? I don't care who stared this talk of classes and multi-classing, just critique the build.
The build doesn't have errors. Though yes like Scholar said, a more in-depth talk about their thoughts on the build wouldn't hurt now would it? The build obviously isn't an overnight one that someone who was half-asleep thought of.  As obviously a lot of book work went to looking for the right "Gears" to make the "Machine" run very smoothley.

EDIT: Lets try not making this a mini-war on someone's thread who put much work into making such a intricate character to be presented now shall we? I don't care who stared this talk of classes and multi-classing, just critique the build.


The build was done before I left on my honeymoon, but I ran out of time to post it.  When I got back, I took a little time to post both this one and the defenderlock upon which Vader is partially based.

Play I have made with Vader has all been since making the post.  I may write up some more explanation of play style, but I doubt it.  I'll try to update it soon with the few alterations I have made.

Edit: As a side note, I'm not Ytterbium_Dragon.  I don't have the time or will to hold people's hands through my builds.  tsuyoshikentsu swore at me the other day for not simplifying my magic item block :P

The build was done before I left on my honeymoon, but I ran out of time to post it.  When I got back, I took a little time to post both this one and the defenderlock upon which Vader is partially based.

Play I have made with Vader has all been since making the post.  I may write up some more explanation of play style, but I doubt it.  I'll try to update it soon with the few alterations I have made. 



Don't worry about anything like speed or how long it will take to write up. Your not being pressed for time; you have a life, so take as much time as you would need to write a bit about what each "Gear" does for the build. If you don't feel like it, you also don't have to. I do have to admit, the build is practically flawless, if their was one of these "Glitches" in the build I sure as heck haven't found one.
I am not very good with Hybrids but looking at DV well.  I can now use my mini

DORIAN


My Hybrids usually suffer in hit /HP or survivability.  This build I can survive Level 1

I am tiered of my Hybrids wearing Red Shirts.

Thank you for posting this build.  I have just to requests.
1)  Any suggestions how to go Radiant so I can use a real LightSaber(tm)
2)  Any replacement for Mark of Warding to make it LFR legal?




If you want more Defences (and who doesn't?) you could swap out your Deep-Pocket Cloak of a Cloak of Translocation - +2AC/Ref whenever you teleport (and with Ethereal Sidestep, that can be constantly).


I swapped OUT my cloak of translocation, for 2 reasons:
1. Money.  Translocation is much more expensive than the Deep-pocket cloak.
2. Fast Hands.  With Fast Hands we can draw/stow 1 item per round, with the cloak we can draw/stow another item per round.  Between the two of them, we should be able to draw an incisive dagger, make our teleport to get concealment, and stow it again to keep our swordmage warding. 



Ahh, sorry. I just saw in your summary that you had it "for cool", didn't realize about Fast Hands. I made a similar character, but I used an Assassin multi-class and Cursed Shadows for concealment instead of the chaussures, which let me use Eladrin boots for teleport-boosting.

Also, I'd probably swap your fighter multiclass to Battlefield Awareness, and ditch Aegis Vitality - unless I'm missing something, your Baldric of Shielding will give much more THP than those options, and other THP won't stack. Student of the Athanaeum, or Greater Aegis of Shielding would be nice.

Ahh, sorry. I just saw in your summary that you had it "for cool", didn't realize about Fast Hands. I made a similar character, but I used an Assassin multi-class and Cursed Shadows for concealment instead of the chaussures, which let me use Eladrin boots for teleport-boosting.

Also, I'd probably swap your fighter multiclass to Battlefield Awareness, and ditch Aegis Vitality - unless I'm missing something, your Baldric of Shielding will give much more THP than those options, and other THP won't stack. Student of the Athanaeum, or Greater Aegis of Shielding would be nice.


I haven't updated the build with the latest changes, so yeah the Fast Hands thing isn't up there yet.  Sorry for the confusion ;)

I'd love to go Assassin MC -> Cursed Shadows, if only the MC wasn't already filled (and I don't do Windrise anymore).  Maybe one day, I'll find a way!

Battlefield Awareness requires Wis, and as I mentioned to an earlier poster, I haven't moved those points over from Dex yet.  We do need Battlefield Awareness before paragon, however, and I haven't done the numbers.  If I can do it, I will.

Lastly, Aegis Vitality is an interesting situation.  If I'm dazed (which happens a LOT at Epic), I don't get my immediate actions, which means I won't be triggering thp from my baldric.  Aegis Vitality, however, keeps on ticking the whole time.  It makes it kind of a stop-gap measure so I don't lose potency from common problems (like being dazed, or using an immediate action on something other than Aegis before I get Rapid Aegis in mid-epic).  However, that does mean it IS on the border...Greater Aegis might be called for...more likely I'll grab one of the new Hestavar feats.
Does a bloodline feat count as a multi class feat?

Sunspray Heritage and Sunspray warrior gives an at-will radiant attack (With a -2 to attacks kicker)
 
I was able to get a + 1 Sunsword at level 3.  Still looking for ways to boost Radiant hit or damage.  Help please.

EDIT:  Looking at feats The stats will have to change or add a divine MC (WP background) to get Radiant attack help
 

Waiting for help I decided to go to compendium and do a search for radiant in heroic feats.  THis is what I found.




Let me know if I miss anything

Show

erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">

FEAT /PREREQ. /VADER?




Immortal Warding :/ Deva, swordmage, Swordmage Warding class feature /Human = NOPE




Armor of Burning Wrath/ Invoker, Covenant of Wrath class feature /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Brilliant Darkfire/ Drow, any divine class/ Human = NOPE & Arcane = NOPE




Elemental Challenge /Genasi, paladin/ Human = NOPE &Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Majestic Presence/ Deva, any divine class /Human = NOPE & Arcane = NOPE




Mighty Challenge /Paladin, divine challenge power /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE &  No Divine Challenge = NOPE




Nimbus of Light /Any divine class /Arcane= NOPE




Cleansing Challenge /Cha 15, paladin, divine challenge class feature /CHA or 8-10 = NOPE & Warlock|swordmage=NOPE




Divine Boon/ Cleric, Channel Divinity: divine fortune class feature /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE & Arcane = NOPE




Purifying Light/ Cha 15, any divine class/ CHA or 8-10 = NOPE & Arcane = NOPE




Radiant Touch/ Paladin, lay on hands class feature/ Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Radiant Recovery [Deva Bloodline]/ Con 13, deva or Deva Heritage/ CON = 16 - 26 YES BUT Human = NOPE




Divine Passion /Avenger/ Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Radiant Rage /Barbarian /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Radiant Breath/ Dragonborn, any divine class/ Human = NOPE & Arcane = NOPE




Cosmic Eye [Vistani Bloodline]/ Sorcerer, Cosmic Magic class feature, Vistani Heritage/  Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE



Enmity's Eye [Vistani Bloodline]/ Avenger, Vistani Heritage /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Light of Order /Any divine class /Arcane= NOPE




Godsworn Radiant/ Avenger, must worship Pelor /Warlock|Swordmage = NOPE




Holy Dilettante /Half-elf, any divine class /Human = NOPE &  Arcane = NOPE




Shadow's Eclipse /Int 13, warlock/ INT 16-24 = YES & WARLOCK = YES




Starfire Womb / Cha 13, warlock / CHA or 8-10 = NOPE & Warlock|swordmage=YES




Beacon of Dol Arrah [Divinity] /Channel Divinity class feature, must worship Dol Arrah /Arcane= NOPE




Kelemvor's Judgment [Divinity]/ Channel Divinity class feature, must worship Kelemvo/ Arcane= NOPE




Power of Amaunator [Divinity]/ Channel Divinity class feature, must worship Amaunator/ Arcane= NOPE




Astral Fire/ Dex 13, Cha 13 /DEX = 11 in Heroic = NOPE & CHA 8-10 = NOPE




Pelor's Radiance [Divinity]/ Channel Divinity class feature, must worship Pelor /Arcane= NOPE




Radiant Power /Deva /Human = NOPE




Markings of the Elements/ Goliath, any primal class /Human = NOPE &  Arcane = NOPE




 






That plus in my build I am swapping Out Frigid Blade for Lightning Lure.






Reason= Dark Force lightning grabbing my target and pulling it towards me vs reducing the distance a target can move.  This does not stop it from shifting away and hitting me with a blast or ranged attack.  Does not stop target from shifting away then charging another player. I may train back into it if I get White Lotus Hindrance- Target can not shift away and has to move away (AOO) and can not go far.












 

Hello

That plus in my build I am swapping Out Frigid Blade for Lightning Lure.



Reason= Dark Force lightning grabbing my target and pulling it towards me vs reducing the distance a target can move.  This does not stop it from shifting away and hitting me with a blast or ranged attack.  Does not stop target from shifting away then charging another player. I may train back into it if I get White Lotus Hindrance- Target can not shift away and has to move away (AOO) and can not go far.




Sorry, life is...a mess right now.

Lightning lure is certainly a valid option, and definitely great fluff for Vader.

Difficult terrain doesn't reduce the move to get OUT of it, unfortunately, so White Lotus Hindrance doesn't make in any harder for the enemy to get away from you.  If anything, it makes it harder for them to get TO you, which could be useful if you're finding yourself more sticky than you need to be.

As far as radiant stuff, Dielzen's elemental handbook might be the best place to go for help.  I went psychic for just the reason that it's a bit more investment than I want to go to.

Bloodlines do not count as multiclass feats.  Deva Heritage+Radiant Recovery is a winning combination for any character with a radiant-converting weapon, if you can find the feat space. 
Difficult terrain does not reduce the movement but to get away from me they have to move (Can not shift in difficult terrain.) They have to Stay in melee, or.  IF a ranged attacker they have to a)  MOVE away to use a ranged attack (Can not shift in difficult terrain) Giving me an AOO or b) make a raged attack against me or someone else giving me an AOO

With retraining I am looking at 
With WL Hinderance and Frigid blade to get away from me the target have to spend their movement action action to get away (taking an AOO and move fewer squares. )
Am I reading them power and feat correctly?


PS THank you for the build again.
 
You cannot shift into difficult terrain. You can shift out of it just fine. Since that's the case, WLH doesn't screw ranged attackers at all.
Thank you.  Then it seems Frigid blade is not that much of a sticky power. 
Thank you.
 
Thank you.  Then it seems Frigid blade is not that much of a sticky power. 
Thank you.
 


At epic, a shielding swordmage will often be reducing enemy movement by 7-8 squares.  NPCs or enemies who move the same may be able to shift, but they won't be going anywhere afterward. 

Heck, if you can slow your opponent, frigid blade immobilizes from level one. 
OK.  That is sticky.  I will still wait a few levels to train out of Lightning Lure

I still like grabbing targets with dark force lighting and dragging them off balconies or just close to me.

I once readied an action to use it when a flying enemy was within 3 squares of me.(But it was on another character.)  Still cool effect.

May Keep LL till CON mod = 5 or 6  (Con MOD = 4 at level 1 so level 8 for CON mod of 5)  Just personal preference.

And thank you - I will look into the elemental guide book

When I saw this build I finally get to use my mini.  Will post image later.


 
2. He is a shielding swordmage with TWO uses of his aegis each turn thanks to the latest defender article.



I'm missing it, how does it manage this?


I'm missing it, how does it manage this?



Rapid Aegis Reaction, from Know Your Role: Defender in Dragon 387.

It allows you to have the first use of your aegis in a round not count as an action, basically.  So you can use it twice, or use aegis and a different immediate.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Ever since I saw this thread, I've wanted to  make an Assault version that focussed more on striking/control and less  on defending. I'd like to present Arther Vadd:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder  ======
Arther Vadd, level 11
Human, Swordmage|Warlock, Anarch of Shyr
Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Vestige Pact (Hybrid)
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Will
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 21, Dex 13, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 26 Fort: 23 Reflex: 22 Will: 20
HP: 84 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
History +14, Endurance +15, Athletics +11, Arcana +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5,  Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +9,  Stealth +6, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Aegis Accuracy
Level 4: Deadly Draw
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Warlock's Sight
Level 10: Action Surge
Level 11: Psychic Lock

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Frigid Blade
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Eyes of the Vestige
Hybrid encounter 1: Clarion Call
Hybrid daily 1: Vestige of Mount Vaelis
Hybrid utility 2: Charm of Hearts
Hybrid encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex
Hybrid daily 5: Theft of Alacrity
Hybrid utility 6: Armathor's Step
Hybrid encounter 7: Dazing Rebuke
Hybrid daily 9: Vestige of the Onyx Queen
Hybrid utility 10: Reactive Surge

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Leather Armor, Longsword
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab  ======

Build Goal and Tactics


The idea behind Arther Vadd is to be essentially a ranged  striker/debuffer, who can teleport into and out of melee with Aegis of  Assault for mark violation punishment. Vestige Pact is taken over  Infernal for a few reasons. Firstly, it provides a way of spreading  Warlock's Curse without taking up your minor action (through Eyes of the  Vestige), which means you can Mark a target, move, attack, and curse in  the same round. It also means that you can continue to both spread your  curse and mark while Charm of Hearts is being sustained, without giving  up your standard action attack. Eyes of the Vestige is also the only  Psychic keyword at-will attack based off Constitution available to a  Swordmage|Warlock, which synergises with Psychic Lock in Paragon.  Additionally, there are some good control Vestige dailies available  which buff Eyes of the Vestige damage, increasing your DPR.


Eldritch Strike is another key power in this build, allowing you to  replace the basic melee attack granted by Assault with a Con-based power  which also grants you Curse damage. Deadly Draw means that any trigger  of your Aegis of Assault will also grant you CA against the target until  the end of your next turn.


A basic combat sequence of this build would go like this:

Round 1: Move into range (if needed), spend Minor action to mark the  target with your Aegis, spend Standard action to attack with Eyes of the  Vestige (additionally Cursing the target). It is now at -4 to attack  your allies and -2 to attack you.


If the target violates your mark, you then get to teleport ajacent,  smack him with an Eldritch Strike (at a +1 bonus from Aegis Accuracy),  slide the target 1 square (preferably away from melee range of the ally  it struck), and then sit at a comfortable +3 to hit against the target  on your next turn, which will probably be a Frigid Blade attack to make  sure it isn't going anywhere.

If the target doesn't violate your mark, you can either continue  attacking it with Eyes or hit it with a movement-impairing Daily, while  your Immediate action powers take care of protecting allies against  unmarked targets.


The paragon path further strengthens your Aegis of Assault, and allows you to make an additional melee basic attack (eldritch strike) when you spend an action point, providing decent nova potential. The Action Surge feat further strengths this, allowing you to spend an action point, gain +3 to attacks, then attack with Eldritch Strike, slide the target 1 square and gain CA for +5 to attacks, make your remaining 2 attacks at a +5 bonus.
Any comments/criticism on my variant in the previous post?

Arther Vadd is a fantastic idea.  I went a slightly different way with my version (the character i run in our current game).  Human 13th Lvl Swordmage/Warlock Malec-Keth Janissary.  I use Eldrich Strike with Staggering Fullblade to slide marked enemies and set up White Lotus Master Riposte for a lose-lose situation, virtually guaranteeing an interrupt attack.  I set up the character to use the swordmage aspect for more damage rather than added defenses.  I almost stacked on the defenses with warding and feats, but we have a Divine Oracle and the 2D12+3D6+50ish crits tipped the balance.  Twofold curse in combination with Dark Majesty Armor provides adequate defenses as well (Also, the two other full defenders in the party don't hurt).  I am set up as a charge build to make maximum use out of my actions (Badge of Berserker and Horned Helm), because making repeated use of interrupt does not change the fact that you only get one minor unless you use your move.  Twofold curse helps.  Chraging rocks when you have a D12+14+slide 4 at-will melee basic too.
Some notes:  I don't think Charm of Hearts will be very useful, as you will be short on minors already.
Get a staggering weapon; it's totally ridiculous with zones and terrain (Blade Barrier sets you up nicely).

I'm going to see about running this from level 1, but I have some issues with it. As far as the shield goes, it appears you can mark one enemy and remark only after that enemy dies or if it is superseded by another mark, is this correct? This appears to be a relatively weak defender at low levels, is there some way of superseding the mark to trigger the above mechanic?
Not anymore.  WotC just changed White Lotus Master Riposte so that it doesn't work if you've marked target, thus eliminating the catch 22.
Not anymore.  WotC just changed White Lotus Master Riposte so that it doesn't work if you've marked target, thus eliminating the catch 22.


White Lotus Master Riposte is only part of the defender catch-22, that's the whole point :P
Added to the Ultimate Defenders thread.
I like this build, I'd like to see the progression from 1-30 (ala LDB versions). Additionally I'd like to see the changes you made to the build.
Really cool concept that you made viable to play.
Isn't painful transference (level 16 warlock utility) just nuts for this build? no cha mod means no penaltys right?

Awesome build, and a cool concept at that. I loves me some Vader lol. I have a couple questions, not really critiques, just clearing up how they benefit the build.

1. Why take skill focus (arcana)? Is this just for flavor or am I missing something obvious?
2. Why take arcane reserves? (Just plan to expend encounters as quickly as possible for the bonus damage?)

Just curious as to your reasoning as I steal....I mean copy your build :p


Nice job though!

Sage of Ages has more nice features than just the extra d20 roll...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima


Awesome build, and a cool concept at that. I loves me some Vader lol. I have a couple questions, not really critiques, just clearing up how they benefit the build.

1. Why take skill focus (arcana)? Is this just for flavor or am I missing something obvious?
2. Why take arcane reserves? (Just plan to expend encounters as quickly as possible for the bonus damage?)

Just curious as to your reasoning as I steal....I mean copy your build :p


Nice job though!



Sorry if my answers aren't terribly thorough, I'm out of town, away from my books and away from my personal build notes.

1. Kilpatds has the right of it.  Sage of Ages' Trick of Knowledge is amazing, and any good Sage will benefit from as high an arcana check as possible.  That's the reason for my choice in foot/ring slot choices, as it gets me an extra 2 arcana.  Skill focus is worth 2(3?) arcana, Iron of Spite is worth 6...I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.  Rerolling improves your odds, but  if you get a high enough result on Trick of Knowledge it's worth +2 to hit AND +3 to all defenses.
2. Arcane reserves is a filler feat.  A good reworking will surely find a better feat for the slot.  I'm actually working on a Vader variant that may find good use for that arcane reserves.  Regardless, it gets trained out later in most of my Vaders. 
Nah that answered my questions perfectly, thanks

It makes more sense to me now, I was unfamiliar with the PP.
I have the character builder open, and can't do it unless i take the Hybrid Talent: Pact boon before i take the twofold pact feat.

Does she have the latest version of the CB? Maybe it is something they changed? 


My CB is fully updated and it works.

However, CB does NOT add the at-will for the original pact, just the second one. 




Just a quick question, as I don't have the CB.  Perhaps someone can do a quick test?

Will the same reasoning apply to Daughter's Promises (D382).  I know the language is a bit different, but The Prerequisite is the same. 
Role Initiative: an award winning D&D Musical http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzn1Q14oA3E&sns=em
Can anyone help.  Im just now getting readjusted to 4thEd character building and it would really help just seeing the build progression of this build from 1-6 or so.

I suppose my main question is which levels are taken up by Warlock (Im assuming level 1 is) and when do I start taking Swordmage levels?  I have a feeling I need to read and figure out exactly what hybrid levels are as well. ;)

Thanks for the help for a super noob.  Good god, Ive been playing for 20 years, one wouldnt think it was so hard to transition to the new system.

Just a quick question, as I don't have the CB.  Perhaps someone can do a quick test?

Will the same reasoning apply to Daughter's Promises (D382).  I know the language is a bit different, but The Prerequisite is the same. 


Daughter's Promises has always worked for me in the CB.
Remember, hybrid grants you access to the PACT, but no benefits from that pact.  Why?  Because it meets prerequisites for feats, PPs and riders!  Daughter's Promises requires the Infernal Pact, which is precisely what hybrid grants you.
As an added note on Twofold Pact, it was recently updated to remove the wording that granted you both pact boons/powers...but otherwise left alone.  They passed up the chance to limit its use by hybrids, which seems a clear confirmation that it's working as intended.

Can anyone help.  Im just now getting readjusted to 4thEd character building and it would really help just seeing the build progression of this build from 1-6 or so.

I suppose my main question is which levels are taken up by Warlock (Im assuming level 1 is) and when do I start taking Swordmage levels?  I have a feeling I need to read and figure out exactly what hybrid levels are as well. ;)

Thanks for the help for a super noob.  Good god, Ive been playing for 20 years, one wouldnt think it was so hard to transition to the new system.


Multiclassing in 4e works very differently from previous editions.  "swordmage levels" versus "warlock levels" doesn't really make sense in this system.   Note that here on the forums we've adopted the following notation for MCing:
Class1|Class2 denotes a hybrid.
Class1/Class2 denotes a Class1 multiclassed into Class2.
"/" also denotes your paragon path and epic destiny choices.  Example:
Swordmage|Warlock/Fighter/Avernian Knight/Sage of Ages indicates
Hybrid Swordmage and Warlock, multiclassed Fighter, Avernian Knight paragon path, Sage of Ages epic destiny.

Leaving standard multiclassing aside, here is hybrid in a nutshell:

1.  Gain the abilities listed in the hybrid section of the PHB3 (or compendium) for each of your two classes.  This will usually be less than half of each class's features, but some classes just don't have enough features for that to matter.

2. Add the surges/hp listed under each half together for your total hp/surges.

3. Gain access to implements/weapon proficiencies for BOTH your classes.  For example, a Swordmage|Warlock like Vader gets proficiency with all military blades, simple weapons, rods, and wands.  He can use blades, rods and wands as implements for ALL his powers, whether warlock or swordmage.

4. Lose access to any armor proficiencies not held by BOTH classes.  A Paladin|Warlock only has leather proficiency to start.  Darth Vader has leather, because both swordmage and warlock have leather.

5. Gain one at-will of your choice from each class, pick 3 skills from either class skill list.  Vader has Eldritch Strike from warlock and Frigid Blade from swordmage.

6. Pick your powers from either class, with one requirement: you must have at least one power of each category from both classes.  So if you wanted all warlock powers on your Darth Vader, you would still have to have at least 1 encounter, utility, daily and at-will power from the swordmage class.  All the rest can be from warlock, but you can't go below that minimum.  The only exception is when you only HAVE one encounter power, like in early heroic.  In that case, if you pick a swordmage power as your first encounter power, you MUST choose a warlock power for your next one.

7.  You may take the Hybrid Talent feat once, which grants back one of the class features from one of your halves.  The features that can be taken with hybrid talent are listed and defined under the hybrid description for each class.  Vader took Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding to access the Swordmage's wonderful defenses.

So as you can see, you aren't gaining levels in Swordmage or Warlock, you are gaining levels in Swordmage|Warlock.  You can take feats from either class, qualify for Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies from either class, choose powers from either class.  Power choice is the only thing that really comes close, and it's not a matter of "this is my warlock level" and more a matter of "which powers can I take right now."  
If you take a swordmage Encounter power at level 1, a warlock encounter power at level 3 and a warlock encounter power at level 7, you can retrain your level 3 power to be a swordmage power without any trouble, because you still have your level 7 warlock power to meet the hybrid requirements.


Standard Multiclassing is even worse:
1. Take a multiclass feat for your new class.  This gives some(generally minor) benefit, and gives access to feats/PPs/EDs for that class.
2. Take a power-swap feat.  There is one for each type of power (encounter, utility and daily), which you can only take once.  This feat lets you swap one of your class powers for a power of the same level/type from your new class.  At the cost of a feat, most characters don't find this trade worth it, but there are some powers that are worth the swap (like Fighter stances).
3. If you want, you can take the multiclass feat and all three power-swap feats to get the option of Paragon Multiclassing.  This lets you NOT take a paragon path, and instead swap one of your at-will powers for an at-will from your new class.  You then take some powers from your second class to replace the Paragon Path powers you won't be getting, and gives access to feats which grant specific features from your second class.   PMC is very rarely worth it, as you are spending 4 feats and all your Paragon Path features to get some powers that are usually weaker than your Paragon Path powers would have been.  The feat cost is even higher if you take the PMC feats.  Almost all builds I've seen successfully use PMC do it to get Twin Strike from rangers.
Wow, thanks Alpha for the quick and very detailed response.  Im going to digest that, play around with the CB and then come back with some questions for you ;)

Building a character for a 4ed-modified Savage Tides campaign so I wanted a defender/controller thank I can work with from 1-20+
Wow, thanks Alpha for the quick and very detailed response.  Im going to digest that, play around with the CB and then come back with some questions for you ;)

Building a character for a 4ed-modified Savage Tides campaign so I wanted a defender/controller thank I can work with from 1-20+


Keep in mind that Vader was only minimally designed with heroic in mind.  A heroic build would have several differences that would be retrained later on.  I did that for my own sanity, as optimizing for each level takes a LOT more time than throwing a level 30 build together.

As soon as I can find the time, I intend to put together an LDB-style progression. 
I don't think LDB really optimizes for low levels.  Gives the progression yes, makes them playable yes.  But with clever retraining I think you can get a little more bang for your buck sometimes.  Not a huge deal though.
I don't think LDB really optimizes for low levels.  Gives the progression yes, makes them playable yes.  But with clever retraining I think you can get a little more bang for your buck sometimes.  Not a huge deal though.


You're right.
I was really referring to his build format, which a lot of folks have adopted lately.

A better example of the actual level-by-level retraining squeeze would be Ytterbium_Dragon...though I suppose examples of builds where he did this are in scarce supply these days. 
I don't think LDB really optimizes for low levels.  Gives the progression yes, makes them playable yes.  But with clever retraining I think you can get a little more bang for your buck sometimes.  Not a huge deal though.



I'm not one to speak for someone else, but I feel comfortable doing so in this case.

LDB's approach is to take what he feels are the best options at each level, while still building toward 30th. In other words, if he has to take a multiclass feat, it may not be the most strictly optimal choice of feats at L10, but he's going to take it there in order to allow him to grab what he wants at 11th. Where situations like that don't apply, you should quickly notice that every feat or power selected along the way is the best grab at that time.

So, while he isn't trying to make a Level 1 DPR King, he's absolutely applying practical Op choices to every level.


I don't mean to derail the thread (sorry, Alpha), but I didn't want a notion to start circulating that Ro builds with all eyes on L30. With the weird, cult-like following he has, that type of misconception could turn into a flurry of silly posts, accusations, etc.
Sign In to post comments