Charge and reach after new errata?

32 posts / 0 new
Klaumbaz
Joined Dec 1969
So, before the latest errata, it could be argued that if you had a reach attack, you could stop in a non adjacent square to make your attack.

Now the current definition of charge means you have to continue moving until your adjacent, or run out of movement, right?
Amazed at how obtuse people can be since 1972.
MarkB
Joined Dec 1969
Somewhat the reverse.

Under the old Charge rules, you had to stop a square short of your target if you were wielding a reach weapon, as that was the nearest square from which you could attack them. Under the new rules, you can choose to attack from a square out, or go ahead and close to adjacent if you want to.
CPNuke
Joined Dec 1969
No.

The charging creature moves up to its speed towards the target. Not it must move its speed.

The real issue with reach weapons and charge comes if the missing text requiring the attacker to "move directly to the nearest square from which you can attack enemy" means charging characters with reach weapons can now move adjacent to the target. Before RAW required them to stop at weapon reach distance for the attack (not taking into account feats like Barreling Charge which allows you to charge adjacent).

Barreling charge was not errata'd out, so there remains (to me) some question of whether adjacent charges with reach weapons are now allowed.

Edit: Argh ... Ninja'd!
tygell
Joined Dec 1969
If you look at the new charge rule in a vacuum, a player or monster with reach can charge adjacent OR stop one square short if they so choose.  Hopefully, posting the exact errata change isn't against any rules.

CHARGE A TARGET: STANDARD ACTION
✦ Target: When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain (Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 60), and then follow these steps.
✦ Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its starting position.
✦ Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
✦ No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions.

There is no wiggle room in the new rule that would allow anyone to interpret it as forcing a reach charger to stop non-adjacent.  That was the old rule, that no longer exists.  Essentially, barreling charge is now a pointless feat.
CPNuke
Joined Dec 1969
I agree the wording allows a reach weapon charge to end adjacent to the target. I posted a query to CustServ and got a response. Not what I expected:

My question:

Previously this meant characters using reach weapons with a charge were required to stop short of adjacent to the target, at weapon reach range, and attack. The MP2 feat Barreling Charge addressed this.

The new errata rules for charge no longer have the wording about moving "to the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy". the new rule also states "each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target".

1) Does this mean a character using a reach weapon with a charge can move adjacent to the target with out the Barreling Charge feat assuming all other requirements for the charge have been met?

2) If so, could the character using a reach weapon on a charge still stop at weapon reach range for the charge and attack if they chose not to move adjacent?

3) What does this mean for the Barreling Charge feat?

4) Does the charging character still have to move to the nearest square from which they can attack the enemy? (I realize this may be technically answered in the above responses, but for clarity and completeness sake I ask it separately here.)

5) The new Stealth rules state a Stealth check may be included in any movement. Assuming all other conditions for Stealth are met, could someone who just charged make a Stealth check after the charge and attack is completed?

Thier response:

1. Does this mean a character using a reach weapon with a charge can move adjacent to the target with out the Barreling Charge feat assuming all other requirements for the charge have been met?

A. No, reach weapons charge will have to end as soon as they're able to make a legal attack. With the Barreling Charge you're able to move adjacent instead. I believe this answers questions 2, 3 and 4.

5. The new Stealth rules state a Stealth check may be included in any movement. Assuming all other conditions for Stealth are met, could someone who just charged make a Stealth check after the charge and attack is completed?

A. Yes you can stealth as part of the charge. It'll be very to nearly impossible to make it matter though. As you most likely will not have the restrictions of a successful stealth check.

tygell
Joined Dec 1969
I really think that CSR is getting mixed up with the old rule.  The new one has absolutely nothing in it that would make someone with reach stop early.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
22420 Posts
I really think that CSR is getting mixed up with the old rule.  The new one has absolutely nothing in it that would make someone with reach stop early.

Agreed.  However weather that's intentional or not remains to be seen.

Edit: The first line seems to be pointless.

"Determine your distance"... ok it's... determined
"Move upto your speed.." ok i moved
"Make an attack".. ok i attacked

So what's the distance have to do with anything....

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I really think that CSR is getting mixed up with the old rule.  The new one has absolutely nothing in it that would make someone with reach stop early.

Agreed.  However weather that's intentional or not remains to be seen.

Edit: The first line seems to be pointless.

"Determine your distance"... ok it's... determined
"Move upto your speed.." ok i moved
"Make an attack".. ok i attacked

So what's the distance have to do with anything....

lol, I wondered the same thing.

As for CS, I think the CSR must have been looking at the old version. I bet asking the same question next week will get a different answer, lol.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
So what's the distance have to do with anything....

How else would you determine whether each square of movement was bringing you closer to the target?
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%

Edit: The first line seems to be pointless.

"Determine your distance"... ok it's... determined
"Move upto your speed.." ok i moved
"Make an attack".. ok i attacked

So what's the distance have to do with anything....

Actually, there's a small bit of text that explains the "determining your distance" clause.  A charging character is not simply counting steps but also determining the steps of movement, which might include blocking terrain.  This creates a path of steps and the Charge requires that a charger "follow these steps."

This prohibits the possibility of changing one's movement path mid-charge (during the move up to your speed step), especially if an obstruction or enemy interrupts the charge by moving into one of the predetermined steps.

For instance:

OOOAOO
XUUFTO
OOOAOO

A charging creature (X), determined that the steps of his charge are U towards the Target (T) ending in square F. If it is interrupted by an enemy teleporting into the square F, then the charger simply cannot change his mind and move into the squares U, U, A to et to his target (T) but must instead end his turn prematurely without being in range to make his attack.
jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
So what's the distance have to do with anything....

How else would you determine whether each square of movement was bringing you closer to the target?

That is what I think it is about.
MarkB
Joined Dec 1969
The "Determine your Distance" part has an important factor: It requires you to predetermine the target of a charge before moving.

Previously, it's been suggested that if another creature intercepts a creature's charge via immediate-action movement, or if the charging creature encounters an invisible or hidden opponent along the way that blocks his path, then - assuming he's moved far enough - he can attack the intervening creature instead of the one he was charging, because the target of a charge was determined only during the basic attack.

The other one that's come up previously is charging through vision-blocking terrain such as fog, magical darkness or a curtain, only seeing your target after completing most of your movement phase.

By requiring you to specify a target and count distance, the new charging rules preclude target-substitution or target-selection mid-charge. You must choose a target (or at least a target square if attacking blindly) before moving, and if circumstances prevent you attacking that target, the charge fails.
I don't think you need to "plan your route" when charging.  That's not indicated anywhere in the rules.  So, if someone teleports into your path, you simply go around them (so long as doing so brings you closer to the target with every square of movement.

Determining distance and plotting the path are two different things.  Many paths can have the same distance travelled in squares.
zgrose
Joined Dec 1969
I believe "follow these steps" refers to the Move, Attack and No Further Actions bullets below the Target bullet item as opposed to the path that you counted. Why? Because if you count through blocking terrain squares, you can not possibly actually move through them.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19375 Posts
I believe the Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain is meant to evaluate the shortest distance that you can move to reach your intended target.

It then follows with The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its starting position which lead me to believe that since there is no more the move to the nearest square from which you can attack.....it means you will decide to move up to a square from which which you can attack and it won't have to be the nearest from your starting position. So then a Reach 3 Fighter will have the option to attack from 3 squares away, 2 or even adjacent.

The new Charge focus on the movement part which can be up to your speed, not the attack part which must happen at the end of it. Every square of movement must reduce the distance between you and the target. But you can move up to your Speed, and therefore you are not forced anymore to move to the nearest square from which you can attack it. Many were already making it work like this.

Ex. A Dwarf decide to charge an Orc. The Orc is determined to be 5 squares away after counting distance. The Dwarf then move up to it's Speed 5 and attack, using an Halberd. It can move 3 or 4 squares and decide to attack, when the Orc comes to Reach. Every Charge req. are met.

Yan

Yeah, it's really just to stop you from going on long, meandering charges around obstacles. If you're four squares away from the target at the start of the charge, but there's a wall in the way that stops you getting at him, you can't move five or six squares to manoever around the wall. It's effectively a clarification to the rather vague word "directly" that was in the old charge rules.

EDIT (added a diagram for clarity): P is the player's character. T is the intended target of his charge. P starts 4 squares from T, counted through the blocking terrain, so each square he moves as part of the charge must reduce that distance to 3, then 2, then 1. He cannot charge round the corner, because the first square he would enter is 4 squares from T, so it does not bring him closer. Unless he can walk through walls, P cannot charge T from his current position.

"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
22420 Posts
Yeah, it's really just to stop you from going on long, meandering charges around obstacles. If you're four squares away from the target at the start of the charge, but there's a wall in the way that stops you getting at him, you can't move five or six squares to manoever around the wall. It's effectively a clarification to the rather vague word "directly" that was in the old charge rules.

EDIT (added a diagram for clarity): P is the player's character. T is the intended target of his charge. P starts 4 squares from T, counted through the blocking terrain, so each square he moves as part of the charge must reduce that distance to 3, then 2, then 1. He cannot charge round the corner, because the first square he would enter is 4 squares from T, so it does not bring him closer. Unless he can walk through walls, P cannot charge T from his current position.

I agree with RAI, and nice chart, but they still need to word it better.  Specificly the second sentance, which has you count squares and not use them.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oh, I agree they could have explained it more clearly. I had to read it through a couple of times myself to understand what that bit about measuring through blocking terrain was for.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
pukunui
Joined Dec 1969
I find it sad and funny at the same time to think that WotC might need to errata their errata.

With regard to the "follow these steps" bit, though, I think it's pretty clear that it's referring to the bullet points below it. It's just a formatting error. They made the same mistake with the revised Stealth rules at first, but later corrected the formatting so that the steps for remaining hidden were no longer bullet points in their own right but were instead italicized subsets of the "remaining hidden" bullet point.

The problem I have with the blocking terrain bit is: if you haven't got LoS to the target because they're on the other side of a wall, then you shouldn't really be able to charge them anyway, even if you could phase through the wall. I think that bit could definitely be worded better.

"Something that distinguishes the Mr Windlings of the universe is the term 'in my humble opinion', which they think adds weight to their statements rather than indicating, in reality, 'these are the mean little views of someone with the social grace of duckweed.'"

~ Terry Pratchett, The Truth

FYI: My post count was around ~10k until the SWSE forum shutdown and the recent D&D forum reorganization erased most of my posts.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
I think they wanted to cover situations where you had LOS but the path was still blocked.  Like there's a gate in the way, or a pit.
pukunui
Joined Dec 1969
I think they wanted to cover situations where you had LOS but the path was still blocked.  Like there's a gate in the way, or a pit.

I agree. That's why I'm saying it could have been worded better.

"Something that distinguishes the Mr Windlings of the universe is the term 'in my humble opinion', which they think adds weight to their statements rather than indicating, in reality, 'these are the mean little views of someone with the social grace of duckweed.'"

~ Terry Pratchett, The Truth

FYI: My post count was around ~10k until the SWSE forum shutdown and the recent D&D forum reorganization erased most of my posts.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
Ah, I see what you're saying.
pukunui
Joined Dec 1969
Ah, I see what you're saying.

LOL. Perhaps my own comment could have been worded better, eh? ;)

"Something that distinguishes the Mr Windlings of the universe is the term 'in my humble opinion', which they think adds weight to their statements rather than indicating, in reality, 'these are the mean little views of someone with the social grace of duckweed.'"

~ Terry Pratchett, The Truth

FYI: My post count was around ~10k until the SWSE forum shutdown and the recent D&D forum reorganization erased most of my posts.

kwwb
Joined Dec 1969
So from reading this thread the CSR says you still have to attack from the nearest square you can attack from but everyone thinks he is stupid

I guess I'll have to leave it up to the GM when I decide to play a charger with a reach weapon.
brap8
Joined Dec 1969
Maybe this is a dumb question,,why charge ?   Why can't I just move and attack the creature?  What is the benefit ?  ESP if charge is a standard action and all you get to do is a basic attack!!
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
Maybe this is a dumb question,,why charge ?   Why can't I just move and attack the creature?  What is the benefit ?  ESP if charge is a standard action and all you get to do is a basic attack!!

1. Charge gives you +1 to attack.
2. Charge has built-in movement. Something is 12 squares away and you have a speed of 6. Move 6. Now charge. Bam, you attacked when normally you couldn't.
3. Basic attacks can be optimized to be incredibly brutal, especially charge based ones.
brap8
Joined Dec 1969
Move , move. Then standard action....don't I still get there and I can choose to use a better attack then basic melee?
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
Move , move. Then standard action....don't I still get there and I can choose to use a better attack then basic melee?

You get three actions per turn. Move, Minor, Standard. You can't move twice, unless you downgrade your standard to a move. In which case you have no standard left to attack with.

I'd say the issue is you don't know the rules very well.
brap8
Joined Dec 1969
Sorry I meant that I could move twice. Then use a minor action. Which in some cases are better then a melee basic attack!  It just does not seem worth it unless the charge power itself gives you something
masteraleph
Joined Jun 2012
322 Posts
Sorry I meant that I could move twice. Then use a minor action. Which in some cases are better then a melee basic attack!  It just does not seem worth it unless the charge power itself gives you something

Because there are builds that optimize around charging.  Using a Vanguard weapon (+1d8 on charge attacks) or Avalanche Hammer (+1[W] on charge attacks), a Horned Helm (+1d6 on charge attacks), etc., not to mention powers and feats that specify charging or melee basics, allows some builds to do far more damage on a charge than on a normal standard action.
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
Sorry I meant that I could move twice. Then use a minor action. Which in some cases are better then a melee basic attack!  It just does not seem worth it unless the charge power itself gives you something

Um, all Minor Action powers are encounter (or even less often). So grats, you used an encounter resource to be slightly more effective then you could have been at-will.
Noctaem
Joined Mar 2010
2225 Posts
Alcestis is correct, it's almost always better to keep your minor action attacks for an encounter nova against a target of choice or to use in a daily nova.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"