Arcane Smackdown!!! Don't piss her off

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Megan Darkwood, of the free city Darkwoods
This girl can lay down some serious smack! Just don't make her loose her temper cus it only gets worse!

The build utalises the hybrid Sorcerer and Barbarian rules to its advantage, it has high defences for a striker, and can unleash a torrent of damage, just don't let your party get caught in the blast.

Megan DarkwoodBasic premis of the build
Capitalise on Sorcerer's Rampage (16th level) and Sorcerous Rage (11th level) PP features
These will allow you to:
  • Whilst Raging add +1d6 damage with a Sorcerer @will power

  • Crit with a Sorcerer @will power on a 19-20

  • and every time you crit you get to cast a Sorcerer @will power as a Free Action

  • You can see where this is going can't you...


Megan loses her temper a lot, (Something to do with a TPK whilst her Aunts guardian angel wasn't there or something) when she does she unleashes arcane fury on anyone who opposes her. (she has 2 rages a day) 

Megan's favorite spell is a (burst 2) thunder admixtures blazing starfall, she loves it when she rages... Plus with a little White lotus to add extra Umph. Cus she really hates it when people try and tell her to shut up, or tell her she is being loud, or worst still hit her!

Her Great Aunt Clover Darkwood left some lovely heirlooms especially a Defensive Quickbeam staff , with a siberys shard on the end (some off plane adventure loot)

So Megan's favorite spell is doing a modest 1d4 +26 damage,
  • Plus if she's upset (raging) and additional +1d6

  • Or if they are bleeding on the carpet, Bloodied +2 damage


All with in her nice and cosy burst 2 with in 10.

If any of those hits Crit, she gets to fire it off again, as a free action! Oh don't forget if she is angry she crits on a 19 or 20! with an additional +1d6 damage from executioners bracers.

Now occasionally Megan just can't help herself and she actually starts to hit people with her staff and push them around a bit (+1 sq distance, with forceful attribute of her staff)... which she is more than capable of doing... wielding her staff as well as her father's Master at Arms taught her... (he taught her other things as well, but thats another story) she can charge in to battle and gain a small bonus from her lover's vanguard longsword she carries (+1d8 on a successful charge).

Sometimes she can channel this rage into actually doing more damage for her and her friends (Rage of the War Bringer and Heartstrike), or shrugging off ill effects (shrug it off), she kind of forgets to pay head to some effects and channels that to do even more damage (Strength of Enduring Pain).  If awkward people get too close and start to gang up on her she can handle herself really well, Leaping out the way with a thunderous leap (oh come on... Thunder Leap).

Her lovely hide armour, (a gift from her great great Aunt) plus barbarian agility coupled with her love of dragon magic (she's not totally beholding to it, as it's from Dragons). as well as her father's excellent Master at Arms training taught her to utalise her staff as defence as well as attack.


Prerequisits of the build.
  • Hybrid Barbarian|Sorcerer, Dragonfoe Ragespell

  • So you have to come from Tymanther, in the forgotten realms

Notes
  • Megan is human as this gives her superior defences and an extra attack power if needed

  • Kicks Butt at 16th level, but should be playable from the ground up

  • High defences (AC: 33 FORT:33 REF:29 WILL:33)


The Build @ level 16

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Megan Darkwood, level 16
Human, Barbarian|Sorcerer, Dragonfoe Ragespell
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Hybrid Talent: Barbarian Armored Agility
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture Power: Blazing Starfall
Background: Tymanther (Tymanther Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 32 Fort: 33 Reflex: 28 Will: 33
HP: 100 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +13, Bluff +19, Athletics +19, Intimidate +19

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +7, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +7, Insight +10, Nature +10, Perception +10, Religion +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +14, Thievery +7

FEATS
Human: Hafted Defense
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Staff Fighting
Level 4: Superior Implement Training (Quickbeam staff)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 8: White Lotus Riposte
Level 10: Versatile Expertise
Level 11: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Resounding Thunder
Level 16: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Burning Spray
Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might (level 3): Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Hybrid encounter 1: Whirling Frenzy
Hybrid daily 1: Tyrant's Rage
Hybrid utility 2: Shrug It Off
Hybrid encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Hybrid daily 5: Thunder Leap
Hybrid utility 6: Sudden Scales
Hybrid encounter 7: Rimestorm
Hybrid daily 9: Rage of the Death Spirit
Hybrid utility 10: Heart Strike
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blades (replaces Whirling Frenzy)
Hybrid daily 15: Rage of the War Bringer (replaces Tyrant's Rage)
Hybrid utility 16: Strength of Enduring Pain

ITEMS
Bloodcut Earthhide Armor +3, Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (heroic tier), Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Belt of Vim (heroic tier), Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier), Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might (level 3), Adventurer's Kit, Ritual Book, Impenetrable Barding (heroic tier), Familiar's Baldric +1, Bag of Holding (heroic tier), Everlasting Provisions (heroic tier), Voran's Floating Lantern (heroic tier), Defensive Quickbeam staff +4, Amulet of Protection +4, Vanguard Longsword +2
RITUALS
Comrades' Succor, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Familiar Mount, Transfer Enchantment, Disenchant Magic Item, Undead Servitor, Enchant Magic Item, Cauldron's Rebirth
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




Now Megan is a thoughtful girl some times and has had many teachers, and she will listen to your advice... but a word from her former teacher - don't piss her off, she can really lay down the smack!

Cool girl, cool story.
But wouldn't about any other enhancement be better than Challenge Seeking ? Vicious, Bloodiron, ... ? CS loses crit dice as far I recall.
I'd also suggest some single target powers from the Barbarian side (you're a Hybrid anway), as throwing that blast into allies is quite dangerous. It also covers well for the rather weak focus damage of Sorcerors. Howling Strike on a charge is fairly simple to improve, and Curtain of Steel and Storm of Blades are two really good Barbarian powers. If you like Thunder a Genasi (Stormsoul -> Sparkform, Furious Bolts, Blazing Starfall) might be a worthwhile change, you'd go from more Cha to more Str (it's OK, better AC and the -1 to hit doesn't matter for critfishing).
Thanks Langeweile  glad you like them both.


Now I agree that the Bloodiron staff might be better than the challenge seeking, but I was just looking at upping her to hit +4 weapon as opposed to +3. and as she's crit fishing to a certain extent it would really matter and it would be an excellent amendment to her arsenal.

I choose human to up her defences and to get her another feat, the idea of changing the race to Storm Genasi is good with its ability to do extra damage, but you do loose some of the versatility and defences in the build for such a change...

Howling strike is better and I'll update the build to incorporate the change. I'll also look at Curtain of Steel and Storm of Blades.

I must admit I did amend the build shortly after the errata, as I was looking at multiclassing to Wizard to pick up the enlarge spell... (not now that it affect Wizard only)

thanks for the feedback, anyone else?

I can't see why you've got deadly rage instead of weapon focus quarterstaff to be honest, other than flavor.

Excellent point Kaerius! - I'll update the build when I get home!

I knew I came to Char Op for a reason! Laughing


Edited the OP, to incorporate some of the elements mentioned above.
  • Changed main weapon from challenge seeking to defensive 
    • She gains +1 to all NADs

    • Critical damage dice, used to have no critial damage dice

    • looses 2d6 damage to unhurt targets


  • Took Howling strike instead of deverstating strike, now can charge and use this power

  • Changed secondary weapon to vanguard longsword +1d8 damage on a successful charge

  • Took Storm of blades

  • Took Weapon Focus (staves)


Any more Ideas, and what Epic destiny, paragon feats, and epic feats would be good to take?
Nice build! Definitely well thought out.

I think a great feat for her would be War Wizardry, -5 to hit and half damage against allies would be awesome for her blast and burst powers.

Also I don't know if attack stacking works this way but at epic you can get the feat Ruthless Spellfury which lets you make a basic ranged attack as a free action on a critical hit. This probably wouldn't be helpful unless you switched out Burning Spray for Acid Orb, so then assuming you crit on Blazing Starfall, you not only get to pop off Starfall again but would also get to fire off an Acid Orb as a free action RBA; not only does this give you a decent bit of bonus damage but it's also another opportunity to crit and repeat the entire cycle.

In Epic, the feat Robust Defenses makes Paragon defenses obsolete so you would have a feat slot open for potential retraining. White Lotus Enervation has always caught my eye because giving the baddie a -1 to the target defense till the end of your next turn isn't usually considered a bad thing (this could also potentially synergize well with langeweile's idea of putting strength ahead of charisma, as it would effectively give you the same bonus to hit but would also result in a slightly better AC). Though due to the fact that this character relies upon the availible rages, the feat Deadly Rage, which gives +1/+2/+3 damage while raging, could work well with the flavor of Megan losing her temper.
Thank you crazymanrb,

I think your on to soem good points here, I was definatly going to retrain paragon defences to robust defences when I get to epic, that way keeping my defences very high.

Secondly I was toying with the shift to strength, but i'm not totally convinced, yes that does up my AC and Fort by a point, but lowers my Will. All my high level enounters that i've played seem to target NADs and for some reason Will more than others...

Changing burning spray to either Acid orb,  Dragonfrost or Energy Strobe, might be a good idea, if I was to take the Ruthless Spellfury, but it looks as if it has been nerfed in the Erratoclypse to be 1/enc.

The Deadly rage, is a good idea, and after swaping it out for weapon focus (staff) i think it would be a good idea to add it back in later, as I can't see many good epic feats to take.

Also would changing the staff to a staff of ruin (I'm using it two handed) so still should count, may be Dual Impliment Spellcaster (if i shifted 1 point of con to dex)  so a +5 Quickbeam staff of ruin would be adding +15 to my base damage when used as an impliment and + 10 when used as a quaterstaff!


Anyother thoughts anyone?
Also what is the default way to calculate DPR for AOE powers, how is area and type taken in to acount. ie close burst 2, vs blast 3, vs range 10 burst 2 etc...

Also how is the DPR calculated for powers with 1 to 3 targets...

thanks for any feedback
Why aren't you taking Ancient Berseker's Rage as you lvl 5 Daily, it allows you to add your CHA to damage against any enemu that starts it's turn adjacent to you. I like the extra damage more than the push effect of Tyrant's Rage (lvl 1).

 
Yeah I have a Sorc|Barb and I went with the staff of ruin+dual implement spellcaster also.  While it's a bit cheesy and some DMs may not allow it, the CB does, for what it's worth.

I don't like your choice of Paragon Path though, as its features may be duplicated with epic feats.

I put a starting 13 into dexterity (for implement mastery in epic) and took Kensei as my PP.

Also I went Dragonborn (minor difference), and chose Dragonfrost as my at-will, and took the draconic arrogance feat.

Also, I think you have too much emphasis on defense IMO.  Keep in mind that if you stack defense too much the monsters just ignore you and smack someone else, so the marginal value of your defense abilities becomes 0.

The real problem with the build is that it is cooler at level 1 than any other time, when it gets to cast spells while swinging a greatsword around.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
@Ritter: your right it would be a better power damage wise, I went for Tyrant's Rage due to its use of minor action, as currently I didn't have much use for it, plus you can use the minor at any point in your turn. So enemies don't have to start adjacent.

I look in to it and see how it plays and perhaps I'll swap it out.

@keithio: the staff ruin dual implement spellcaster is a bit cheesy, but its doable
I think you've missed the most important part of the build if you don't like the PP.Dragonfoe Ragespell.
  • No feat can duplicate the FREE Sorcerer @will on a crit (any crit) and with AOE i'm likely to get a few (i don not need to be raging to get this benefit)

  • Granted there is a feat that allows you to have a 19-20 crit range for sorcerer powers

  • Granted I do only get the 19-20 crit range with Sorc @wills when I'm raging, which is 2 times a day at level 11 but they do get +1d6 as a bonus


Now with a standard turn I'd close to an enemy and start a rage.
next round I'd blast with an burning spray, or blazing starfall - chance of a crit (19-20).
if crit , cast blast with an burning spray, or blazing starfall - chance of a crit.
if crit , cast blast with an burning spray, or blazing starfall - chance of a crit.
ad infinitum, if i get crits

if the person attacks me I get to hit them again with the same power (white lotus) + cha which could possibly crit on 19-20.  If crit , cast blast with an burning spray, or blazing starfall - chance of a crit. etc etc etc.

I have a emphasis on defences, as this gets shut down quite quickly with status effects and bing a striker/striker I don't want to be hit as i have low HP and no cheesy background to bump my HP.

So I'm more than happy that if a monster doesn't hit me, it means that he is more likely targetting the defender, or other squishy... and I don't take up valuable party resources...

I did look at Dragonborn and look at those powers and feats as well, but i prefered the vesatility of the human, with extra sorcer at will to abuse with this.

Thanks for the feedback..

Still awaiting how to calculate AOE DPR, anyone?



There's an epic sorcerer feat that lets you cast an at-will when you crit with sorcerer powers, I forget what it's called though.  I think it's only once per turn but multiple times/encounter.

When people around here do DPR calculations they assume 1 and only 1 enemy.  "AOE DPR" isn't really something that exists here.  To try and calculate you would need to assert some distribution of how many targets there are to hit.  If you assumed you always had a 5x5 block of enemies to hit, then your DPR would probably be infinite, whereas if you only assumed 1 enemy it would be not so hot.  It really depends.

The big problem with your build is that without a lot of effective teamwork you won't be able to consistently get 2 enemies in your AOE without smacking one or more allies.

In my experience other players dislike being bossed around ("Move here so I can AOE and outshine you!") about as much as they like getting hit by your AOE ("But I can target one more enemy if I target you as well!").

But if your group can accomodate your AOE, then everything's dandy.
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
There's an epic sorcerer feat that lets you cast an at-will when you crit with sorcerer powers, I forget what it's called though.  I think it's only once per turn but multiple times/encounter.



Ruthless Spellfury.  It was errata'd.  It works once per turn, but it only lets you make an attack with a sorcerer ranged basic attack as an at-will.

The 'repeat an aoe attack on a crit' feature of the Dragonfoe Ragespell is no longer duplicateable by any means that I'm aware of.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Ruthless Spellfury.  It was errata'd.  It works once per turn, but it only lets you make an attack with a sorcerer ranged basic attack as an at-will.

The 'repeat an aoe attack on a crit' feature of the Dragonfoe Ragespell is no longer duplicateable by any means that I'm aware of.



*Opens his dictionary to "Errata"*

Errata: See 'Why do I buy these damn books anyways?'
D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
There's an epic sorcerer feat that lets you cast an at-will when you crit with sorcerer powers, I forget what it's called though.  I think it's only once per turn but multiple times/encounter.


Ankiyavon is right Ruthless Spellfury got nerfed in the erratapocalipse... it would allow dragon frost to be fired in addition to the Dragonfoe Ragespell free @will Sorcerer power, but 1/enc. which is not worth the feat slot, I'd rather take War Wizardry, (-5 to hit and half damage against allies) as crazymanrb stated in a previous post.

The big problem with your build is that without a lot of effective teamwork you won't be able to consistently get 2 enemies in your AOE without smacking one or more allies.

In my experience other players dislike being bossed around ("Move here so I can AOE and outshine you!") about as much as they like getting hit by your AOE ("But I can target one more enemy if I target you as well!").

But if your group can accomodate your AOE, then everything's dandy.


I agree that all Sorcerers have this problem regarding AOE powers, and it is not a failing in the Build itself.  I also agree that other players might take offence to being bossed around, by any class or player.. but it is not about outshining them, its about fullfilling your role as a AOE striker in the party, and about optimising that role.

The AOE DPR calculations are a pity, I was going to use soemthing like size of the area - 1 for DPR calculations.
  • Thus a blast 1 is 3x3 grid thus could be said to reliably target 2 targets (3-1), otherwise you would opt to perhaps use a single target power instead.

  • a blast 5 is a 5x5 grid so could be said to target (5-1) = 4 targets

  • a close burst 1, being a 3x3 grid coulg again said to target (3-1) = 2 targets


all for the purposes of DPR calculations.

I may have to think on this... anyones thoughts?



Ankiyavon is right Ruthless Spellfury got nerfed in the erratapocalipse... it would allow dragon frost to be fired in addition to the Dragonfoe Ragespell free @will Sorcerer power, but 1/enc. which is not worth the feat slot, I'd rather take War Wizardry, (-5 to hit and half damage against allies) as crazymanrb stated in a previous post.



For clarity:

Ruthless Spellfury
Epic Tier
Prerequisite: 21st level, sorcerer
Benefit: Once per turn when you score a critical hit with a sorcerer at-will attack power, you can use a free action to make a ranged basic attack that is a sorcerer power.

(This is the erratad version from the compendium).

It's not 1/encounter.  It's just restricted to RBA sorcerer powers, which quite frankly makes it pretty awful in my opinion.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.

Changing burning spray to either Acid orb,  Dragonfrost or Energy Strobe, might be a good idea, if I was to take the Ruthless Spellfury, but it looks as if it has been nerfed in the Erratoclypse to be 1/enc.




Ruthless Spellfury
Benefit: Once per turn when you score a critical hit with a sorcerer at-will attack power, you can use a free action to make a ranged basic attack that is a sorcerer power.

It's not 1/encounter.  It's just restricted to RBA sorcerer powers, which quite frankly makes it pretty awful in my opinion.



@Ankiyavon, your right it isn't a very good feat anymore. It basically allows you to fire off Acid orb,  Dragonfrost or Energy Strobe if you have taken them. Which basically means you have to be human to get 2 @will Sorcerer powers, otherwise you're dramatically reducing the effectivness of this build.

Thanks Ankiyavon

A good rule of thumb is that damage to any secondary target is worth about 50% to the primary target. I posted a  detailed discussion somewhere in the Rogue handbook, but it's waay to late here to dig that out right now...
Right then:

I need a good tool to help me calculate the DPR for a single target and specify that its in a 5x5 grid (burst 2 with in 10) for a tundering Blazing Starfall, any suggestions?

I need to do this for straight Tundering Blazing Starfall
and
a Rage powered Tundering Blazing Starfall (higher crit rate)

Any other thoughts?
Basic info for calculating DPR can be found here

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

basically,

%miss chance * miss damage (some powers do damage on miss)+ %non-crit hit chance * normal damage (use average non-crit damage) + %critical hit chance * critical damage (use average crit damage)



Standards for enemy defenses usually stand at lvl+14 for attacks against AC and lvl+12 for attacks against NADs. A calculation for Megan, using

+4 Quickbeam Staff of Ruin -> +20 to attack, 1d4 +26 damage for blazing starfall. At lvl 16 the attack is vs Reflex so you can assume you need a 16+12=28 to hit, which means an 8 is needed to hit.

A basic hit does 2.5 (weapon avg) + 26 (modifier) = 28.5 damage
A critical hit does 4 (weapon) + 4*5.5 (avg crit dice) + 3.5 (executioners bracers) + 26 (mod.) = 55.5 damage

(28.5*(12/19)) + (55.5*(1/20)) = 20.775 DPR against a single target while not raging

A raging calculation would involve the addition of 3.5 damage (avg of 1d6) to regular and critical hits as well as changing the regular hit range to 11/18 and increasing the crit range to 2/20.

Regular hit does 28.5 + 3.5 = 32 damage
Critical hit does 55.5 + 3.5 = 59 damage

(32*(11/18)) + (59*(2/20)) = 25.455 DPR while raging against a single target

I'm unsure how to accomidate the aspect of firing off another blazing starfall on a critical hit so I've left that possibility out of these calculations.

If anyone notices any errors on my part please call me out on it, I'd hate to be giving out inaccurate numbers
@crazymanrb Awesome - thanks for this...

It doesn't seem to be very much damage for a level 16 striker character, granted that is in a 5x5 grid but still I would have expected more.

as for the calculation for critical damage wouldn't you add in the DPR of the attack and multiply this by your chance of obtaining a crit.

  • Normal: 20.775 DPR + (20.775*(1/20)) = 20.775 + 1.039 = 21.814 DPR

  • Raging: 25.455 DPR + (25.455*(2/20)) = 25.455 + 2.546 = 28.001 DPR


Are you adding in the staff of ruin bonus because i think that the 1d4 +26 damage for balzing Starfall is using the +4 Quickbeam Staff of Defence
I'll check when i get back to my CB...

Any one know how I can up my damage at all?

Those numbers are using just the Quickbeam Staff of Defense for the damage bonus you listed in your first post. Adding the +4 staff of Ruin should bump up the damage of a normal hit by 4 to a total 32.5, and a crit would be bumped 59.5 (while not raging). Raging values would change to 36 and 63.

[(32.5*(12/19)) + (59.5*(1/20))] + (23.501*(1/20)) = 24.676 DRP while not raging
[(36*(11/18)) + (63*(2/20))] + (28.3*(2/20)) = 31.13 DPR while raging


Now while that does seem kinda low for a single target attack, the beauty of this move and crit combination is that when more enemies are burst area your chances of getting continuation crits go up dramatically. I think if there were two enemies in the zone it would look something like this

[(2)(32.5*(12/19)) + (2)(59.5*(1/20))] + [(2)(47.002*(1/20))] = 51.702 DPR against two targets while not raging
[(2)(36*(11/18)) + (2)(63*(2/20))] + [(2)(56.6*(2/20))] = 67.92 DPR against two targets while raging


This indicates that the move gets more effective the more targets there are in the zone, three targets give 81.079 DPR and 110.37 DPR, divide those last two numbers by three and you get 27.026 and 36.79 respectively. These are both greater than the single target DPR 24.676 and 31.13 further indicating that the move gets more effective when used against more targets.

Blazing Starfall DPR chart
As you can see things get pretty wacky as the number of enemies in the burst goes up, 25 enemies would give you 1303.2 DPR while not raging and 2476.3 DPR while raging.

Also these calculations only include you re-cirtting once, since you can fire it off any number of times upon a crit your potential damage could stack much higher than these numbers

Thanks for that crazymanrb... I knew i should have paid more attention in maths..

Given that the thundering blazing starfall is now burst 2 which is a 5x5 grid, that could include some considerable damage...

Each target has a chance of adding yet more crit triggered thundering blazing starfalls, thus the DPR would  go up even more.  I take it the curve of the graph would curve steeper?

What other AOE DPR builds could I compare it with?

Anything else anyone can add?

Thanks for that crazymanrb... I knew i should have paid more attention in maths..

Given that the thundering blazing starfall is now burst 2 which is a 5x5 grid, that could include some considerable damage...

Each target has a chance of adding yet more crit triggered thundering blazing starfalls, thus the DPR would  go up even more.  I take it the curve of the graph would curve steeper?

What other AOE DPR builds could I compare it with?

Anything else anyone can add?


Anyone with good math sense can tell how quickly the build explodes at more targets.

To be a bit more precise, my guesstimate was that at 10 targets, since each target has a 10% chance to generate an attack, each attack generates on average 1 more attack.  However, eventually you will have a run of bad luck, and it will end.  Expected DPR should be some very very large number.

Then at 11 targets, each attack generates 1.1 attacks, so the expected value becomes infinite.

I wrote a program to test my hypothesis:

Show

#include
#include
#include

#define TRIALS 50000
#define DEFENSE 28
#define TO_HIT 23
#define HIT_DMG 30.0
#define CRIT_DMG 30.0
#define TARGETS 25
#define CRIT_RANGE 2

int d20(void);
int TwoD20_Drop_Lowest(void);

int main(void){
    int i, j, k, attacks, roll;
    double DPR;
    
    srand((unsigned)time(NULL));
    
    for(j=1;j<=TARGETS;j++){
        DPR=0;
        for(k=0;k            attacks=1;
            while(attacks>0){
                for(i=0;i                    roll=d20();
                    if(21-roll<=CRIT_RANGE){attacks++;DPR+=CRIT_DMG;}
                    if(21-roll>CRIT_RANGE&&roll+TO_HIT>=DEFENSE) DPR+=HIT_DMG;
                }
                attacks--;
            }
        }
        printf("Targets - %d, DPR - %lf\n", j, DPR/TRIALS);
    }

    while(1);
    
    return(0);
}

int d20(void){
    return(rand()%20+1);
}

int TwoD20_Drop_Lowest(void){
    int i=d20(),j=d20();
    if(i>j) return(i);
    else    return(j);
}


The program simulates your attack by rolling virtual dice many times (50000 at the moment) and spits out the average result.

For the output to accurately model your sorc, I would need a few variables.

1) HIT_DMG - Your average damage to a single target on a single hit (I input this as 30)
2) CRIT_DMG - Your average damage to a single target on a single crit (I input this as 60)
3) TO_HIT - Your bonus to hit (I input this as 23)

Here is the output with those numbers:

Targets - 1, DPR - 26.465400
Targets - 2, DPR - 59.989800
Targets - 3, DPR - 102.345000
Targets - 4, DPR - 160.113600
Targets - 5, DPR - 240.427200
Targets - 6, DPR - 359.103600
Targets - 7, DPR - 557.165400
Targets - 8, DPR - 948.451800
Targets - 9, DPR - 2163.465600
Targets - 10, DPR - 996188.122800

The margin of error with 1-9 targets is quite small.  The value for number 10 however is very unpredictable and to obtain an accurate result you'd really have to compute it rather than simulate it.

The program takes a very, very long time to compute #10, and forever to compute #11.  This is because #11 is infinite.  If you watch the number of attacks it has remaining to evaluate with 11 targets the number just goes up and up and up.

Of course, real targets would eventually die.  I simply assumed them all to have infinite HP.  It would not be difficult to make a more realistic model which takes the HP of each target into consideration, but I don't see the point.

edit - Someone tell me how to stop the forums from eating parts of my code.

D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies: Striker - Smack the enemy Defender - Get smacked by the enemy Leader - Make it impossible for your party to lose Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
Thank you keithio, you have proven mathmaticaly just what I thought... interesting to see that although the build doesn't do much in the way of actual single target DPR, the over all effect is impressive.

Now with this as my main attack routine, coupled with the white lotus master riposte, i think it would function more than sufficient as a pure AOE striker.

Thank you all

This really cool at-will combination pretty much frees up all of your powers to focus solely on single target dpr.

Can you break down where the +26 damage comes from? 


This really cool at-will combination pretty much frees up all of your powers to focus solely on single target dpr.

Can you break down where the +26 damage comes from? 



According to the CB the 24 damage is broken up in to:
  • +6 Charisma bonus

  • +4 Enhancement

  • +7 Sorcerous Power (Str)

  • +2 Feat bonus - Weapon Focus(Staff)

  • +1 Bonus - Siberys Shard of the Mage

  • +4 Superior Impliment bonus - Quickbeam staff


I also get +2 for damage against Bloodied targets.

The 26 i think was that I was including the bonus for a thundering weapon from the Quickbeam staff, but it looks like thats been included ( i think it should be +3, and not +4) so the CB could be wrong...

Don't forget with White Lotus Master Reposte I get to add my CHA to the damage again, hit or miss, as well as fireing off another Thundering Blazing Starfall.

As to using single target powers, I've not done much looking in to the other powers really, I did look at any close burst and blast powers thunder powers just to get the resounding thunder feat to kick in more and to maximise my chances of gettign crits by hitting as many targets as i could.

If you have any suggestions I'm listening.
Yey for math and the first Monte Carlo I see on the forums.
OK now I'm looking out for a good Epic destiny for Megan, and perhaps a better load out of equipment and powers to take her to 30th...

cheers
Still looking at what epic destiny to take, as i'm now gettign closer
thinking about these:
  1. Storm Sovereign

  2. Darklord

  3. Mythic Spirit

  4. Fury of the Wild

What do people think, which are both in theme and also most optimal for the build?
Do you have any other suggestions?

Over the past few years I've specialized in Swordmage, Warlock, and Paladin builds, so I'm pretty new to both the Barbarian and Sorcerer.  However, based on the options you've listed.  I think Fury of the Wild is a no-brainer.


1. Remember that low strength off-stat?  Kiss it goodbye with a +2 to strength.
2. At level 24 you get the best of features for you.  Whenever you score a critical hit which should be pretty damned often with Sorcerer's Rage and any of your thunder burst/blast powers, you deal your newly enhanced strength score to every non-bloodied enemy within 10 squares of you.  That is going to add up. 
3. Unstoppable Fury, is pretty awesome too.  You get to reroll all of your missed attacks against un-bloodied creatures.



As per request: My Draconic Arrogance + Crazy Charge version of your concept.  It's a work in progress and it has a few house rules. He gets versatile expertise for free and he can choose both a barbarian and a sorcerer path for the purpose of qualifying for feats, powers, paragon paths, and power riders.  So in the version below even though he has barbarian armored agility, he still prefer's dragon and thaneborn powers.


So, you have to cut a few feats to make it playable in a real game and you'd probably want to pick up at least leather armor and actually choose Dragon Soul (Thunder).  In fact I'm considering doing this as well, because almost every single power is thunder, anything with variable resistance is going to walk all over this guy. 


Rough Draft

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 30
Dragonborn, Barbarian|Sorcerer, Dragonfoe Ragespell, Avatar of Io
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Hybrid Talent: Barbarian Armored Agility
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Cold
Arcane Admixture Power: Burning Spray
Background: Tymanther


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 28.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.



AC: 48 Fort: 35 Reflex: 34 Will: 35
HP: 172 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 45


TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +25, Bluff +31, Acrobatics +23, Diplomacy +31, Streetwise +31


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +18, Heal +17, History +20, Insight +17, Intimidate +28, Nature +17, Perception +18, Religion +18, Stealth +18, Thievery +18, Athletics +25


FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 4: Arcane Familiar (retrained to Arcane Familiar at Level 11)
Level 6: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 8: Dragonborn Senses
Level 10: Student of the Sword
Level 11: Draconic Arrogance
Level 12: Draconic Spellfury
Level 14: Arcane Admixture
Level 16: Sorcerous Vision
Level 18: Resounding Thunder
Level 20: Charging Rampage
Level 21: Overpowering Charge
Level 22: Explosive Spellcasting
Level 24: Sorcerous Flux
Level 26: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 28: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 30: Epic Reflexes
Feat User Choice: Versatile Expertise


POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Burning Spray
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Avalanche Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Swift Panther Rage
Hybrid utility 2: Combat Sprint (retrained to Good Timing at Level 10)
Hybrid encounter 3: Ice Dragon's Teeth
Hybrid daily 5: Thunder Leap (retrained to Thunder Hawk Rage at Level 9)
Hybrid utility 6: Sudden Scales
Hybrid encounter 7: Rimestorm
Hybrid daily 9: Adamantine Echo (retrained to Oak Hammer Rage at Level 19)
Hybrid utility 10: Heart Strike
Hybrid encounter 13: Thunderfall (replaces Avalanche Strike)
Hybrid daily 15: Thunderfury Rage (replaces Swift Panther Rage)
Hybrid utility 16: Avatars of Chaos
Hybrid encounter 17: Thunderstroke (replaces Ice Dragon's Teeth)
Hybrid daily 19: Crashing Winds (replaces Thunder Hawk Rage)
Hybrid utility 22: Platinum Scales
Hybrid encounter 23: Crater Fall (replaces Thunderfall)
Hybrid daily 25: Stone Tempest Rage (replaces Oak Hammer Rage)
Hybrid encounter 27: Thunder Pulse (replaces Thunderstroke)
Hybrid daily 29: Rage of the Thundering Rhino (replaces Thunderfury Rage)


ITEMS
Thundergod Fullblade +6, Accurate staff of the Traveler +1, Marauder's Elderhide Armor +6, Horned Helm (epic tier), Badge of the Berserker +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Rampaging Slayer's Gloves (epic tier), Eladrin Ring of Passage (paragon tier), Ring of Tenacious Will (epic tier), Strongheart Tattoo (epic tier), Ioun's Revelation (level 3), Eladrin Boots (paragon tier), Belt of Mountain Endurance (paragon tier), Beacon of Erathis Accurate symbol +1, Mithrendain Steel Dagger +2, Staff of Ruin +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======




Oh, he also uses a really dirty trick using the Staff of the Traveler and Arcane Familiar.  Staff of the Traveler allows substitute any shift with a teleport of equal squares in distance.  So, you take feats like Long Step and gear like eladrin ring of passage, eladrin boots, and a mithrendain steel weapon, basically anything that increases the range of your teleports and shifts.  Just make sure that it doesn't increase the range of teleport powers, since this does not count as a power.  The Arcane Familiar of choice is the disembodied hand/ rakshasa claw.  It will let you stow and draw gear as a free action.  You can get a mithrendain steel weapon and a staff of the traveler pretty early on and get yourself the two-square teleport necessary for continuous charging.

Edit: Okay, so I switched from Chrome to Explorer and the edit seems to have taken.  Like I said the build is very much a rough draft

ok, so it seems from this, Megan uses Charisma and strength as her main scores, but did she take a hybrid talent feat so she's thunderborn, whirlingslayer, thaneborn, or rageblood vigor? because with cha she would be thaneborn. just wondering
Actually she didn't her one hybrid talent was the Barbarian Armoured Agility, which allows her to wear Leather and Hide armour, as well as giving her the Barbarian Agility (+1/teir to AC and REF, if not in heavy armour). And she is a strength based Sorcerer Soul, meaning she can add her STR mod instead of DEX or INT to her AC.

Now this adds up as she is now wearing:
  • Hide armour +3 (base) 

  • Enhancement Bonus of armour +3 

  • Earthhide Armour +1 FORT (special armour property)

  • Barbarian Agility +2 (to AC and REF)

  • Sorcerer Soul +5 (STR to AC)

  • Staff fighting +1 AC (defensive property)

  • Halfted defencd (+1 shield bonus to AC and REF)

  • Wielding a Defensive staff (+1 item bonus to NADs)

  • Amulet of Protection (+4 to NADS) 

  • Paragon defences (+1 feat bonus to NADS)


All of this gives her a higher set of Defences that some defenders of her level

AC: 33, FORT: 33, REF: 30, WILL:33 @Level 16

Given this I thought it was more efficient than any rider effects that any rider effects, or special when YOU kill a creature powers, as I'm more likely to be up close and personal with barbarian and sorcer powers, and that it seems mandatory for Sorcerers to pick leather proficiency as thier first feat. the Hybrid give me access to Hide straigth of the bat with bonuses.
Very nice build, and very impressive defenses!

Some questions:
* Why does she have Familiar Mount as a ritual with no familiar?
* It seems you have two 'companion' items: Impenetrable Barding (heroic tier), Familiar's Baldric +1.  I don't believe you can't put these on the same creature.

Some observations:
* The DPR is very nice, but does not unfortunately break new records.  See here (unoptimized 14th level blood mage is +35 dmg modifier in actual gameplay) and here (+31 dmg modifier by 12th level).
* Given that it does not distinguish between friend and foe, I personally would probably not use "blast size -1" as the number of affected targets.  Given my experience with Stinking Cloud, I don't think you'll reliably hit 4 targets.

All the same, I think you should post a link to this build in the DPR Kings thread, as its quite novel!

As a side comment, I'm not that big on optimizing at-wills in Paragon unless most of your other powers are Immediates or Minors (or unless you don't mind the drudgery and your at-wills are better than your Encounter powers).  I find that Paragon fights are over by the 3rd or 4th round with a good group.
Edit: well damn, you can't actually look at the build because of the obvious.  If anybody can tell me how to fix this and make it viewable, I'd love to know.

I've seen this using Chrome.  Copy your summary to Notepad, save the file, close it.  Open it back up, copy all of it, use IE to browse to this thread, and paste it.

Very nice build, and very impressive defenses!
Some questions:
* Why does she have Familiar Mount as a ritual with no familiar?
* It seems you have two 'companion' items: Impenetrable Barding (heroic tier), Familiar's Baldric +1.  I don't believe you can't put these on the same creature.



Thank you!

The familiar mount ritual was from an alternative build, for if White Lotus Reposte ever got nerfed, also allowed the build to able to engage in aerial superiority in Heroic.

Impenetrable Barding is a Mount Slot and Familiar's Baldric is a Familiar slot item, so they should work ok, again from alternative Aerial superiority build



Some observations:
* The DPR is very nice, but does not unfortunately break new records.  See here (unoptimized 14th level blood mage is +35 dmg modifier in actual gameplay) and here (+31 dmg modifier by 12th level).
* Given that it does not distinguish between friend and foe, I personally would probably not use "blast size -1" as the number of affected targets.  Given my experience with Stinking Cloud, I don't think you'll reliably hit 4 targets.



The build wasn't for the maximum damage, it sort of came about from play. and I agree that with bursts and blasts as it's main attack the sorcerer has some limitations in the friendly fire department. But given that, I'm regularly hitting 3 targets on the first round of combat, if not the second, and id I'm unable too i swich to my barbarain combat techniques.



All the same, I think you should post a link to this build in the DPR Kings thread, as its quite novel!

As a side comment, I'm not that big on optimizing at-wills in Paragon unless most of your other powers are Immediates or Minors (or unless you don't mind the drudgery and your at-wills are better than your Encounter powers).  I find that Paragon fights are over by the 3rd or 4th round with a good group.



I'll do that, thanks

Megan doesn't just focus on her @wills, her main focus is on getting a crit, which allows her to fire off a Sorcerer @will for FREE, this can happen with any kind of crit, and its PER Crit!
So if i ever managed to crit twice with the same attack - thats two free castings of a Sorcerer @will!

I agree with you that a lot of the @will optimised builds focus on just one, Megan's abilily works with both her Sorcerer @wills, Blazing Starfall and Burning Spray, depending on if I need to get upclose and personal or not.

And your right spaming the same power you had at 1st level is boring, and that's the beauty of this build; its not reliant on the @will power to trigger the effect, it uses any attack, Barbarian, Sorcerer, MBA, a zone that rolls to hit, anything, as long as it can crit.  And if it does, Bang! there goes another sorcerer @will.

Now this Sorcerer @will doesn't even need to be at the same target, it can be anywhere and can generate its own crits...

Thanks very much for the feedback and questions, I hope my explaination helped.


Thanks for the clarifications.  A couple of quick replies:

Megan doesn't just focus on her @wills, her main focus is on getting a crit, which allows her to fire off a Sorcerer @will for FREE, this can happen with any kind of crit, and its PER Crit!

So if i ever managed to crit twice with the same attack - thats two free castings of a Sorcerer @will!

That is very cool, and what I really like about this build.  With so many attacks, and a 19-20 crit range for 2/3 of the day (if you play LFR), you will indeed be critting!

Impenetrable Barding is a Mount Slot and Familiar's Baldric is a Familiar slot item, so they should work ok

Based on AV pg 122 ("A creatures serving as your companion or mount has a single magic item slot"), my reading is that an arcane familiar used as a mount would have a single magic item slot.  Note for example that if you have a Beast Companion that is also a Mount, you still have only one magic item slot -- they're not additive, which the sidebar on that page explains.  Also see DRA 377 pg 36, which likewise states that a familiar has a single magic item slot.

In any case, just something to consider... I don't want to derail this thread on a rules discussion, especially a theoretical one
Thanks Corwynn.

I do try and make all my builds playable and LFR legal, which this one is, last time I checked.

The ritual stats that you



Your familiar grows to Large size and can accommodate you as a rider, and it is in active mode for the duration. You can end the ritual by returning the familiar to passive mode with a minor action. If the familiar takes damage equal to 5 + one-half your level or more, it returns to its normal size and to passive mode.




So it should be able to use the familiar item: Familiar's Baldric as normal.
But now its a mount so could use the mount item:
Impenetrable Barding I'm not sure though.
I have seen this used on other builds though.


What I do need is to see where to go at Epic, I'm not convinced by any of the Epic destinies so far... does any one have any thoughts on what would be good and appropriate..

The default does seem to be chosen, but of whom? what else would be good...
I'm back and would like to post this build on the DPR king candidates.  Seeing that her actual DPR is dependant on the number of targets could you do a linear approximation when the number of targets goes from 2-6 and also post a single target DPR.  I'm happy with posting both as both will come into play when implemented.  Also list what cheese elements you employ.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
@borg285 No problem I'll get on to that as soon as I can.
If Megan was born a tiefling things would look a little different , meet Chandra; her name means "fierce, hot, passionate" in Sanskrit

With the new fire based wizards article and the Tielfing and Wizard articles now becoming available everyone is jumping on the flaming band wagon....

So this is basically a rebranded Megan, the notible changes are

  • Removed the White Lotus feats

  • Removed the Staff fighting feats

  • Removed the Resounding thunder feat, unfortunatly this makes our Blazing starfall only burst 1

  • Removed Arcane Admixture

  • Changed the Superior Impliment to Incendiary Dagger

  • Added Dual Impliment Spellcaster

  • Added Hellfire Blood

  • Added Arcane Initiate

  • Added Hellfire of Mephistopheles

  • Added Consuming the Weak

  • Added Wizard's Wrath

  • Added Hellfire Master

Effects:
The +3 flaming Incendiary dagger has the effect that all powers can be flaming and adds another +1 to attack with Blazing Starfall, due to it attacking Ref

Hellfire Blood adds an additional +1 to attack and damage due to it now being a Flaming Blazing Starfall

Wizard's Wrath all attacks ignores Bloodied targets fire immunity and resistance, plus we get a minor action encounter power to remove all immunities and resistances in a burst 1 in 10 till end of next turn

Hellfire of Mephistopheles allows us to add fire vulnerability to anyone who has zero fire resistance, or lowers their resistance by 5 till end of encounter, so our subsequent attacks can take advantage of...

Consuming the Weak, Whenever you hit a target vulnerable to fire with an arcane fire attack, the target takes ongoing 5 fire damage in addition to the attack’s normal effects (save ends)

Hellfire Master, then added a nasty effect when an enemy saves against an effect bestowed by your fire attack, it takes fire damage equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier

And we still manage to keep some of our high defences up by wielding a second Rhythm Blade Incendiary Dagger, which added extra damage via dual impliment spell caster.

[sblock="Chandra: Tiefling Rage Mage"]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Chandra Darkwood, level 16
Tiefling, Barbarian|Sorcerer, Dragonfoe Ragespell
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Hybrid Talent: Barbarian Armored Agility
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Background: Tymanther (Tymanther Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 32 Fort: 30 Reflex: 28 Will: 30
HP: 99 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +21, Athletics +19, Intimidate +19, Arcana +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +7, Heal +7, History +10, Insight +7, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +10, Stealth +11, Streetwise +14, Thievery +9

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 6: Hellfire Blood
Level 8: Arcane Initiate
Level 10: Versatile Expertise
Level 11: Hellfire of Mephistopheles
Level 12: Consuming the Weak
Level 14: Hellfire Master
Level 16: Wizard's Wrath

POWERS
Arcane Initiate: Scorching Burst
Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might (level 3): Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Whirling Rend
Hybrid at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Hybrid encounter 1: Whirling Frenzy
Hybrid daily 1: Grounding Rebuke
Hybrid utility 2: Shrug It Off
Hybrid encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Hybrid daily 5: Vengeful Storm Rage
Hybrid utility 6: Sudden Scales
Hybrid encounter 7: Rimestorm
Hybrid daily 9: Rage of the Death Spirit
Hybrid utility 10: Heart Strike
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blades (replaces Whirling Frenzy)
Hybrid daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Grounding Rebuke)
Hybrid utility 16: Strength of Enduring Pain

ITEMS
Bloodcut Earthhide Armor +3, Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (heroic tier), Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Belt of Vim (heroic tier), Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier), Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might (level 3), Adventurer's Kit, Ritual Book, Impenetrable Barding (heroic tier), Familiar's Baldric +1, Bag of Holding (heroic tier), Everlasting Provisions (heroic tier), Voran's Floating Lantern (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +4, Vanguard Longsword +1, Rhythm Blade Incendiary dagger +2, Flaming Incendiary dagger +3
RITUALS
Comrades' Succor, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Familiar Mount, Transfer Enchantment, Disenchant Magic Item, Undead Servitor, Enchant Magic Item, Cauldron's Rebirth
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
[/block]