Bonuses applied to Cure ____ Wounds and similar healing

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This question arises after the nerf to Healer's Lore and Healer's Implement in today's errata.

A power that says "the target regains hit points equal to its healing surge value" clearly no longer gets a bonus from Healer's Lore and Healer's Implement.

However, if a power has "the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge," do they get the same bonus HP they would for actually spending a surge?

On a similar note but not related to today's errata, would the bonus from a Belt of Mountain Endurance apply to such powers?  The belt's property reads as:

Property: When you spend a healing surge, you can add your Strength modifier to the surge value.
I suspect that with the errata you are not in fact supposed to be able to use healer's lore with CLWs and other similiar powers with that wording.  That said, it think it's silly and I will continue to do so in my games.

-Polaris

Yes, it still applies.  Everything and anything that would add to the healing if you had actually spent a healing surge applies to Cure Light Wounds etc.  Otherwise it wouldn't be as if you had spent a healing surge.


Yes, it still applies.  Everything and anything that would add to the healing if you had actually spent a healing surge applies to Cure Light Wounds etc.  Otherwise it wouldn't be as if you had spent a healing surge.


I disagree. It specifies in the update "When you let a creature spend a healing surge", which seems to very clearly require that the creatue be able to spend a healing surge. "As if" is the exact opposite of spending a healing surge, namely, not spending a healing surge.
But then why say "as if," instead of "equal to your healing surge value,"?  I've always treated the "as if," clauses in D&D the same as actually doing the thing they are "as if,"-ing.  If that makes grammatical sense.  When you use a power "as if," it were a MBA you can use it in place of all instances of a MBA, right?  Now, it doesn't trigger things which key off of using an MBA, because it is not the power "Melee Basic Attack," but...  I dunno.  If it's truly that limited then Healer's Mercy becomes far, far less useful than it was for no good reason.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards." ~ yesnomu "Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless." ~ SanityFaerie
I disagree. It specifies in the update "When you let a creature spend a healing surge", which seems to very clearly require that the creatue be able to spend a healing surge. "As if" is the exact opposite of spending a healing surge, namely, not spending a healing surge.



I agree.  The extra healing is based on you letting them spend a surge.  Whether they are spending a surge or just gaining HP as if they had spent one is irrelevant.  If your power does not let them spend a surge, they cannot get the extra healing.  I don't think there are any powers worded like "The target regains hit points as if you let them spend a healing surge", but if there are maybe those powers would get extra healing.
Here is a WOTC_GregB saying  you don't get to use healer's lore for powers like cure light wounds when I asked him in another thread.
You have to get it.  Otherwise it isn't as if you spent a healing surge.   If you don't get all the bonuses that you would get if you spent a healing surge, it isn't as if you spent a healing surge, and the universe implodes in an illogic loop.

If you spent the healing surge, what would you get?  That is exactly what "as if" means.
You have to get it.  Otherwise it isn't as if you spent a healing surge.   If you don't get all the bonuses that you would get if you spent a healing surge, it isn't as if you spent a healing surge, and the universe implodes in an illogic loop.

If you spent the healing surge, what would you get?  That is exactly what "as if" means.

I see your argument more clearly now, however, I still disagree with it. I think the problem in your argument is that you seem to be looking at it more from the perspective of the person who would be using the surge as opposed to the perspective of the cleric using the power.

To clarify, the PC getting healing 'as if' they had spent a healing surge is eligible for whatever powers/abilities/feats that apply to healing surges, I think?, however from the perspective of applying the Cleric's bonuses that power does not actually allow the PC to use a healing surge.

I'm not entirely comfortable with my use of language above but does that at least elucidate the point I am trying to make?

Not really.  All that matters is from the perspective of the person spending the healing surge.  How many hit points would they get if they spent the surge?  They get exactly that many, or else "as if" is not true.
I don't think there are any powers worded like "The target regains hit points as if you let them spend a healing surge", but if there are maybe those powers would get extra healing.

There are, and they're mentioned multiple times in this thread as well as in the thread title.  Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, etc.

If what WOTC_GregB is the official stance, then this errata hurt clerics very, very badly.

Regardless of the official stance, in any games that I run, Healer's Lore definitely still applies to Cure (Whatever) Wounds and similarly worded powers.
They get as many hp as they (the targets) would have gotten if they (the targets) had spent a healing surge.  Not necessarily as many hp as the target would have gotten if the cleric had triggered the healing surge for him.

"This change limits the potency of surgeless healing..."

If you're not spending surges, you're not getting the benefit.

"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Not really.  All that matters is from the perspective of the person spending the healing surge.  How many hit points would they get if they spent the surge?  They get exactly that many, or else "as if" is not true.

I think Jaelis & Zgrose are somewhat getting at my point.

I think there are different perspectives though. One is what bonuses the Cleric gets to apply to his power that augment your healing, the other is what bonuses you personally have that kick in when you get to spend a healing surge. "As if" still allows you to use the latter, but the Cleric doesn't get to apply their Healer's Lore to it and this is in line with WotC's comment that the purpose is to limit the potency of surgeless healing.

Hmm, I think you hit the nail on the head here Galkasaur.  Healer's lore doesn't apply because the cleric is not allowing the target to spend a healing surge.  But any items or effects that the target has that trigger off spending a surge should work.  Sort of a wierd distinction, but it seems to make the most sense grammatically.  Especially after taking into account WOTC_GregB's statement. 
I think there are different perspectives though. One is what bonuses the Cleric gets to apply to his power that augment your healing, the other is what bonuses you personally have that kick in when you get to spend a healing surge. "As if" still allows you to use the latter, but the Cleric doesn't get to apply their Healer's Lore to it and this is in line with WotC's comment that the purpose is to limit the potency of surgeless healing.

As if allows all to apply.

If the total amount of healing isn't identical to actually spending a healing surge it isn't "as if" spending a healing surge.  It's really that simple.  It doesn't matter where the bonus came from, all that matters is that it must match identically or it isn't "as if".

If a healing surge is spent, how many hit points are regained?  If a healing surge is not spent, how many are regained?  Are the two indentical?  If yes to the last question, then the target has regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.  If no to the last question, the target has not regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.


If the total amount of healing isn't identical to actually spending a healing surge it isn't "as if" spending a healing surge.  It's really that simple.  It doesn't matter where the bonus came from, all that matters is that it must match identically or it isn't "as if".



The issue is that there is no bonus if the target isn't spending that healing surge as the result of a cleric power.  If the power read "regain hit points as if you had used a power that allowed the target to spend a healing surge" then it would be clear cut and Healer's Lore would definitely apply, but that's not the case.  Nowhere in the use of the power does the target spend a healing surge, and nowhere does the power indicate that they ought to gain HP as if you had allowed them to spend that surge, just as if they had spent it.
The kicker is not the "as if", its the "spend".

And I think Molecule ninja'd me. 
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
The issue is that there is no bonus if the target isn't spending that healing surge as the result of a cleric power.

But there would have been if he had spent the healing surge?  If yes, it must apply when he regains hit points "as if" he had spent a healing surge.  Otherwise they aren't the same, and it isn't as if he had spent the healing surge.

If I sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, it's because I am.  There is no way for the two values to be unequal and the phrase "as if" to remain true.

Bob the fighter takes a second wind to spend a healing surge and gets 10hp.

Frank the cleric uses Healing Strike and gives Bob the effect. Bob spends a healing surge and gets 10hp + Healer's Lore (lets call it 3 hp).

Frank the cleric uses Cure Light Wounds on Bob. Bob regains 10 hp.

This is how I believe the rules update is setup to operate wrt to Healer's Lore. Nothing was spent nor did the power allow the target to spend, therefore no bonus is applied.

"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
 As my primary D&D encounters character is a cleric I would very much like to agree with Fitz but reading the errata I agree with Galkasaur, Molecule and zgrose. The errata says "...When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword,..."  The power in question must let a creature spend a healing surge to get the bonus hit points.  I think WotC could have worded it better but I think the intent is clear and the WotC poster states that Healing Lore is not intended for surgeless or as if powers.
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If a healing surge is spent, how many hit points are regained?  If a healing surge is not spent, how many are regained?  Are the two indentical?  If yes to the last question, then the target has regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.  If no to the last question, the target has not regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.


This was my interpretation as well.  If the values aren't the same, then you haven't recovered HP as if you spent a surge.  As far as reading things in plain English goes, the "as if" clause is no longer true.
If I sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, it's because I am.  There is no way for the two values to be unequal and the phrase "as if" to remain true.

Ditto on the first part of your post.

The Healer's Lore bonus isn't one that applies when the target spends a healing surge though, it's one that applies when a Cleric power lets the target spend a healing surge. It's a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless. Anyways, imagine this debate is just going to get very repetitive at this point.
The issue is that there is no bonus if the target isn't spending that healing surge as the result of a cleric power.

But there would have been if he had spent the healing surge?  If yes, it must apply when he regains hit points "as if" he had spent a healing surge.  Otherwise they aren't the same, and it isn't as if he had spent the healing surge.

If I sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, it's because I am.  There is no way for the two values to be unequal and the phrase "as if" to remain true.




Yes, if he had actually spent the healing surge then the bonus would apply.  But only because it's part of a cleric power.

The two values that are unequal are not proper ones to be comparing.  There can be different values received from spending a healing surge depending on the circumstance.  In order for the "as if" to be fulfilled, it doesn't mean it should deliver healing equal to a cleric power that causes the target to spend a healing surge.  It should deliver healing equal what the target does when it spends a healing surge; that is what the power is asking for.  The "as if" is referring to a situation that has nothing to do with you or your class features.
  Ok lets look at it this way. "as if they had spent a healing surge" As in the creature targeted had spent there own healing surge with no outside assistence from the cleric vs  "...When you let a creature spend a healing surge.." Where the cleric grants the healing surge that was indeed spent by the creature.
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If a healing surge is spent, how many hit points are regained?  If a healing surge is not spent, how many are regained?  Are the two indentical?  If yes to the last question, then the target has regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.  If no to the last question, the target has not regained hit points as if he spent a healing surge.


This was my interpretation as well.  If the values aren't the same, then you haven't recovered HP as if you spent a surge.  As far as reading things in plain English goes, the "as if" clause is no longer true.



Healer's Lore is now conditional so "as if" is no longer constant. If the condition is true, the value is X. When the condition is false, the value is Y. 
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
If you want to distinguish between "let a target spend a healing surge" and "targe spends a healing surge" you are going to stop Healer's Lore from working with a lot of powers in which the target spends a healing surge without it specifying that the cleric lets them do so.

Healer's Lore applies whenever the target spends a healing surge due to a cleric power.  If the target didn't spend a healing surge, but heals "as if" he had spent a healing surge, then it also applies.  Because if he *had* spent that surge it would apply, therefore it still applies.

It doesn't matter if you look at it from the cleric's side or the targets side, both ways it remains identical.

It's a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless. Anyways, imagine this debate is just going to get very repetitive at this point.

All debates here end up repetive. 

Fitz, please review my post (#20). I'm unclear on the application of all your abstracts.

Bob gets the same hp back from his second wind as he does from the Cure Light Wounds. Therefore "as if" is preserved, no?

"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
 FitzNighteyes said "If you want to distinguish between "let a target spend a healing surge" and "targe spends a healing surge" you are going to stop Healer's Lore from working with a lot of powers in which the target spends a healing surge without it specifying that the cleric lets them do so"

Please give some examples. I would say its not required to  "spedificaly" state in the text of the power the cleric let them do it. Just that the power let the character to spend a healing surge and they indeed spend it (ie) if the power let the creature spend a healing surge and they spent it then Healing lore applies regardless of "specifiying" in the text the power let the creature spend the surge or not.
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Wow, some staff guys actually says it doesn't apply and there are still people arguing about it? If you don't like the ruling, don't play with this errata, but don't be a jerk about it trying to tell something different.
There is a place for things like this, it's called houseruled.
Bob gets the same hp back from his second wind as he does from the Cure Light Wounds. Therefore "as if" is preserved, no?


Is Second Wind a cleric power that lets the target spend a healing surge?  No.  So no, it's not.  For it to be "as if", the amount must be exactly equal to how much would be gained if the power instead said "spend a healing surge".  Otherwise it isn't equivilent.
Bob gets the same hp back from his second wind as he does from the Cure Light Wounds. Therefore "as if" is preserved, no?


Is Second Wind a cleric power that lets the target spend a healing surge?  No. 



Neither is Cure Light Wounds.

I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
But if it did, it would be.  Since it is "as if", you first see how it would work if the target did spend one, then you gain that much.
It's like this:

A: C Happens
B: Do as if A

You do A which means that C happens.

I do B, which means that C Happens, because C happens if I had done A. 

So. If you are doing B "as if" A. You are doing everything you would normally have done if you had done A without actually doing A. THAT is the benefit of 'as if'! You don't have to do A, you just gain the benefit 'as if' you had done it. 

It's really quite simple and I'm not quite sure where the confusion comes in here....


EDIT: huh... that was apparently my 444th post...  
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All debates here end up repetive. 

Touche.

I'll maintain my other point while clarifying it a bit with what other posters were saying. It seems like you are making the wrong comparison. The 'as if' language is referring to the target's healing surge value, not to what that value would be if you had a Cleric power that applies the Healer's Lore benefit to it.


I'm with Fitz on this one.

Specific beats general.  Every power is an exception to the rules.

Cure Light Wounds creates an exception to the Healer's Lore rules.  Healer's Lore normally works only when the target spends a healing surge.  Cure Light Wounds creates a situation in which you evaluate what would have happened if the target spent a healing surge, then do it.

Since Cure Light Wounds is a cleric power with the healing keyword, if it was making the target spend a surge, Healer's Lore would apply.  Since it works as if the target spent a surge, Healer's Lore applies.


This is no different than the various "counts as a basic attack" powers which are affected by things that only affect basic attacks.  It's an exception to the general rule.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.

Healer's Lore gives specific bonus to the general power. It works both ways.

But any case, WotC comes in and says it doesn't apply. What more proof do you need?

"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Wow, some staff guys actually says it doesn't apply and there are still people arguing about it?

Staff statements often contradict RAW, and also often contradict other staff statements... so, yeah, staff statements are pretty much never going to end any rules debate.

Wow, some staff guys actually says it doesn't apply and there are still people arguing about it?

Staff statements often contradict RAW, and also often contradict other staff statements... so, yeah, staff statements are pretty much never going to end any rules debate.


I think the only thing that ends rules debates are rules updates, and often that only ends the old debate while starting a new one. Thankfully, for us forum rats, there are often as many debates ended by rules updates as there are debates started by rules updates so we always have something to talk about. Laughing


Healer's Lore gives specific bonus to the general power. It works both ways.

But any case, WotC comes in and says it doesn't apply. What more proof do you need?




Given that I don't play LFR, and my gaming group is perfectly willing to accept my word on rules as Pronouncements From On High, any rules debate is purely an academic exercise for me :-p

In such a situation, I can accept that their intent was to disallow Cure X Wounds powers; but I can still debate about what the rules actually say.  (Though I do agree with you on the dangers of slavishly following RAW, it can still be interesting/fun to figure out what the RAW on a given situation is.)
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
If you want to distinguish between "let a target spend a healing surge" and "targe spends a healing surge" you are going to stop Healer's Lore from working with a lot of powers in which the target spends a healing surge without it specifying that the cleric lets them do so.



I think you're misunderstanding what people are saying here.  It's not that there's a difference between letting the target spend a surge and the target spending a surge (although maybe there is; it's not super relevant here though).  The point is there is a difference between the target spending a surge and the target spending a surge because of a cleric healing power.



If I ask the question "how much do you heal when you spend a healing surge because of a cleric power" the answer is "HSV + cleric's wis".




If I ask the question "how much do you heal when you spend a healing surge" the answer is "HSV".

It's worth noting by the way that under your interpretation, the old power would have resulted in Wis-mod being applied twice.  One application because you should add the cleric's wisdom modifier when you spend a healing surge, and one application because the power itself is a cleric healing power.