Anyone else wants to have either Foundry or Depths banned?

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Although the presence of a deck with a power level above of what everyone would like isn't new to Extended, most of the time this decks have been limited to a single year of dominance. Two years ago Dredge forced people to cram their SB with Voids and Crypts but when Odyssey rotated it was over. The next year Elves scared people but as time passed, the deck turned out to be fair and even Faeries became the best deck, and both went into oblivion with the rotation of Onslaught.

This year, however, the new monster Thopther Depths isn't rotating anywhere soon. Both Dark Depths and Sword of the Meek will remain for another three years and Dark Confidant will still be with us for two years. Although the deck loses Thirst, Mox and Explosives, those were secondary and a new form will be likely to emerge again. At the end of the season, the deck's dominance was barely sufferable and the sight of THREE years of it is something that really makes me wonder if I actually want to play the next Extended Season. Given that "it is going to rotate soon" doesn't apply, I think a preemptive for the next season is something that, even when most people is afraid to ask for, everyone wishes for it.

Do you have any problem banning any of the two pieces? Which one of them would you prefer to see gone?
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
There's no way it's even close to be banned.  People need to stop whining.  Only times that things should be banned are when you basically have to play it or it's just absurdly dominant.  In other words, you pretty much had to play skullclamp in a creature based deck or else it was subpar.  Dark depths wasn't that dominant, not even close to jund dominant in standard, which shouldn't be banned, and the deck is easily hated out.
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I am definitely in support of banning these for sure. Just so broken. WoTC please ban these. Thanks in advance.

(And yeah several key pieces in Jund should be banned too...that deck is warping Standard worse than Affinity ever did)
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I am definitely in support of banning these for sure. Just so broken. WoTC please ban these. Thanks in advance.

(And yeah several key pieces in Jund should be banned too...that deck is warping Standard worse than Affinity ever did)



Hahaha, really? really? Jund hasn't been warping the format for months, and sense RoE it's gone from "clearly the best, be ready for it" to equal footing with the other power decks.

Banning cards isn't the rigt way to fix things, Thopter Depths combos aren't really that broken, it's the solid control shell mixed with good wincons. Would you rather they look like standard control decks where they all win with fattie creatures? 
I am definitely in support of banning these for sure. Just so broken. WoTC please ban these. Thanks in advance.

(And yeah several key pieces in Jund should be banned too...that deck is warping Standard worse than Affinity ever did)



Are you serious?

Have you played magic before?
The fact that kids are getting facerolled by combos in Ext and asking for bans is amazing.

It used to be "ban jitte", "ban goyf".


Everytime a deck becomes fast or seems to dominate your metagame, a ban should not be required.

Depths token be repealed for 1, pathed for 1, bounced by jace, cryptic bounced, dead and gone bounced (not primarly used but occasionally in SB's),  and hypergensis has akroma's memorial which gives it pro-black to steamroll over it.

Thopter can be facturing gusted to give you a crapload of life, night soul's betayel makes the little 1/1's die immediately, they can vollanic fallouted/firespouted, ghostly prison stops them from crushing you for a bit, and etc.

Damping Matrix works for both decks shutting them down.



Yes, these decks can be a pain to fight if not countered correctly or if you do not have hate for them but ou shouldnt say they are bannable meaning they warp metagames.

My 2 cents.
I am definitely in support of banning these for sure. Just so broken. WoTC please ban these. Thanks in advance.

(And yeah several key pieces in Jund should be banned too...that deck is warping Standard worse than Affinity ever did)



did you ever play a affinity deck with a playset of disciples, skullclamps and vials?

from the perspective of someone who has just returned to magic after a couple of years, i gotta say that both formats look relatively healthy. there's always going go be a top deck, but in the case of current extended (and for that matter standard) it doesn't seem like the big dogs are that much bigger than the rest... 
...and they just put a ban on Sword of the Meek...
And Wizards continues to listen to ****ing terrible players who come into formats with the wrong decks don't see me rolling into legacy with a extended zoo deck and asking forduel lands to be banned well don't walk into extended with your **** ass standard decks and ask for our things to be banned.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
My rendition of how sword was banned:

Guy in charge of the extended Banned/Restricted list: Uhg, what a night. What time is it?
*checks clock*
Guy in charge of the extended Banned/Restricted list: Oh no, I needed to hand the new extended B/R list in today and I spent all of last night partying. To the extended forums! Let's see, oh here is a thread unhappy with thopter combo so that can get the axe. Also, this guy doesn't like depths either so we can just cut Cold Snap, no one liked that set anyways. Hmmm, that means we have to get rid of Ravnica... oh well, the boss did say he wanted the M2010 duals to be the new norm. Well, looks like I will be getting that promotion.

By the way, I am putting on a one man show entitled, "Fat Neckbeard fails at parodying Jon Stewart's running one man show gag."
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
Or maybe, just maybe, it could be a reasoned, considered response to Extended's prolonged unpopularity as a format, which has been noted in multiple places for quite a while now.

This is the company that let Arcbound Ravager practically demolish Standard attendance before acting against it, remember--knee-jerk reactions aren't really a trademark of theirs.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Or maybe, just maybe, it could be a reasoned, considered response to Extended's prolonged unpopularity as a format, which has been noted in multiple places for quite a while now.

This is the company that let Arcbound Ravager practically demolish Standard attendance before acting against it, remember--knee-jerk reactions aren't really a trademark of theirs.




And demolishing a format is better then creating one?

Creating a new format gives players a new way to play and keeps every one happy demolishing an old one pisses off every one who plays it and makes few happy.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Or maybe, just maybe, it could be a reasoned, considered response to Extended's prolonged unpopularity as a format, which has been noted in multiple places for quite a while now.

This is the company that let Arcbound Ravager practically demolish Standard attendance before acting against it, remember--knee-jerk reactions aren't really a trademark of theirs.





And demolishing a format is better then creating one?

Creating a new format gives players a new way to play and keeps every one happy demolishing an old one pisses off every one who plays it and makes few happy.



So, are you suggesting that they are creating a new extended or demolishing the old extended?
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
Or maybe, just maybe, it could be a reasoned, considered response to Extended's prolonged unpopularity as a format, which has been noted in multiple places for quite a while now.

This is the company that let Arcbound Ravager practically demolish Standard attendance before acting against it, remember--knee-jerk reactions aren't really a trademark of theirs.






And demolishing a format is better then creating one?

Creating a new format gives players a new way to play and keeps every one happy demolishing an old one pisses off every one who plays it and makes few happy.




That they destroyed a format instead of just making a new "super standard"

So, are you suggesting that they are creating a new extended or demolishing the old extended?



And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Or maybe, just maybe, it could be a reasoned, considered response to Extended's prolonged unpopularity as a format, which has been noted in multiple places for quite a while now.

This is the company that let Arcbound Ravager practically demolish Standard attendance before acting against it, remember--knee-jerk reactions aren't really a trademark of theirs.









And demolishing a format is better then creating one?

Creating a new format gives players a new way to play and keeps every one happy demolishing an old one pisses off every one who plays it and makes few happy.







That they destroyed a format instead of just making a new "super standard"

So, are you suggesting that they are creating a new extended or demolishing the old extended?













I am suggesting that they demolished the old extended. I asked because I couldn't decipher whether you thought they were demolishing, creating a bad format or creating a good one.


Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
And demolishing a format is better then creating one?

If creating the new format would lead to a slow, agonizing death by attrition of the old format as players gleefully flocked to the new one at the expense of the old, then quite possibly, yes. A quick, clean death means that we won't see months and months (possibly years) of slow, sad player decline as support is phased out. We won't see endless cries for Wizards to fix the format, to throw Extended a bone, to restore its former glory. We won't see the board become a ghost town (more than it already is, anyway) as player numbers dwindle to unsustainable levels.

Instead, we have a week or so of shocked the-end-is-nighs, several more weeks of cries of anguish and appeal, maybe some people leave in disgust, and then things stabilize and get back to business as people start preparing for the first season of Neo-Extended.

Will it make people angry? Certainly; there's proof enough of that already, less than four hours after the announcement. There are definitely people who liked Extended as it was, and some of those people will be quite angry. However, Wizards is probably betting on there being a much larger number of people out there who didn't like Extended, but who will be willing to give this new format a shot.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

And demolishing a format is better then creating one?


If creating the new format would lead to a slow, agonizing death by attrition of the old format as players gleefully flocked to the new one at the expense of the old, then quite possibly, yes. A quick, clean death means that we won't see months and months (possibly years) of slow, sad player decline as support is phased out. We won't see endless cries for Wizards to fix the format, to throw Extended a bone, to restore its former glory. We won't see the board become a ghost town (more than it already is, anyway) as player numbers dwindle to unsustainable levels.

Instead, we have a week or so of shocked the-end-is-nighs, several more weeks of cries of anguish and appeal, maybe some people leave in disgust, and then things stabilize and get back to business as people start preparing for the first season of Neo-Extended.

Will it make people angry? Certainly; there's proof enough of that already, less than four hours after the announcement. There are definitely people who liked Extended as it was, and some of those people will be quite angry. However, Wizards is probably betting on there being a much larger number of people out there who didn't like Extended, but who will be willing to give this new format a shot.




So wizards is willing to sacrifice the minority to appeal the majority what happens when legacy drops off in popularity do they destroy it to, what if this new extended format kills standard as it offers nearly the same card pool only with two more blocks meaning that new plays can use decks from the last two blocks and old players can just hold onto their decks of seasons past. Making radical changes like this is bad for the game as it shows that wizards does not care for the individual player and what they enjoy but cares more about giving new players something else to flock too.

Even if they had kept extended as a format and made this new "super standard" it would of allowed people to either tone down their extended decks and play in it or beef up their standard decks while at the same time allowing local stores to still have extended tournaments and perhaps wizards could throw in random DCI events while they support their new format. By simply killing it they don't allow any one to enjoy it.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
However, every single person I've talked to that plays extended (and I know a lot of people in that group) is furious with the change.  This is just completely rewarding new players, yet again, instead of rewarding their faithful playerbase, which they should at least do some of.
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Extended is really popular in England, the biggest event in my local town was the recent extended PTQ. Also, all the extended PTQ's in other parts of the country usually attract more players than standard ones from my experience...
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So wizards is willing to sacrifice the minority to appeal the majority[...]

It's not a matter of sacrificing the minority to appeal to the majority. It's a matter of taking something that isn't working and trying to turn it into something that does. Seeing something that they believe needs improvement and taking the steps necessary to improve it.

Yes, there are people who loved extended just the way it was--many people. There were also people who loved banding, people who loved Urza block, people who loved batches and series, people who loved the pre-8th card face, people who loved Skullclamp, people who loved affinity, and people who loved mana burn. Magic has a large enough audience that you can pretty much guarantee that no matter what changes you make, there will be a lot of people who will not like it and who will be angry at you.

For that reason, the fact that making a particular change will make a lot of people angry is not in itself a sufficient reason to refrain from making it. A bunch of angry players is not desireable, but it is by far preferable to certain other problems. For example, a much larger numbers of disinterested players, and/or a lack of new players joining up. Both of those problems were something Wizards apparently believed Extended was suffering.

[...]what happens when legacy drops off in popularity do they destroy it to, what if this new extended format kills standard[...]

If neo-Extended kills off Standard to the point where nobody's playing it and it makes business sense for Wizards to drop it as a supported format, sure. If Legacy dies under the weight of the dual lands and Wizards can come up with a better alternative that will be more popular with players, sure, why not?

Making radical changes like this is bad for the game as it shows that wizards does not care for the individual player and what they enjoy[...]

I disagree. This says absolutely nothing about whether or not Wizards cares for the 'individual player'. Such a statement is meaningless, because every group is by necessity a collection of individuals. The fact that you are an individual and you do not like this change is countered by the fact that other people are also individuals and do like the change.

[...]but cares more about giving new players something else to flock too.

Without new players, Magic dies. Period. There's no way around that simple fact. Without new players, the player base dwindles until it hits the point of diminishing returns, and then everything collapses.

It may not be pretty, but it's true, and the same goes for individual formats.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Zamm while I do plan to adress your full post late, I would like to say that you failed to adress my main point in that there was no real reason to get rid of the extended format instead of just making a new one allowing those who like it now to still play while giving those who wish to manage a smaller card pool this new "super standard"
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Man, I just wanted a single card out of the format!


Zamm while I do plan to adress your full post late, I would like to say that you failed to adress my main point in that there was no real reason to get rid of the extended format instead of just making a new one allowing those who like it now to still play while giving those who wish to manage a smaller card pool this new "super standard"



Most people don't have either the attention or the time to build decks and analyse metagames for too many formats at the same time (heck, that already happens now when different formats get combined in a single tournament like Worlds). Adding 4 block Extended while keeping 7 block Extended at the same time would have resulted in at least one of the formats being utterly unplayed or maybe both. One format had to go the moment they decided the change.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Man, I just wanted a single card out of the format!


Zamm while I do plan to adress your full post late, I would like to say that you failed to adress my main point in that there was no real reason to get rid of the extended format instead of just making a new one allowing those who like it now to still play while giving those who wish to manage a smaller card pool this new "super standard"




Most people don't have either the attention or the time to build decks and analyse metagames for too many formats at the same time (heck, that already happens now when different formats get combined in a single tournament like Worlds). Adding 4 block Extended while keeping 7 block Extended at the same time would have resulted in at least one of the formats being utterly unplayed or maybe both. One format had to go the moment they decided the change.




Extended already was underplayed according to them they could of made "super standard" their new sanctioned format while keeping extended a casual/unoffical format much like legacy.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Where's all this talk of Extended being a bad format or not working. Since when is it not working? The format gets decent turn up at events.

Considering the format isn't supported that much, since it's just PTQ's and GP's that feature it as a format for most players, I think it does pretty well. How is just making the pool smaller going to help at all?

The reason Standard works better as a format, is that FNM's and game days are all standard. So the normal events players go to will be standard. Shrinking the card pool doesn't change the fact there are less events....
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BDM said there would be an upcoming barrage of WPN stuff about the new format, and possibly even FNM support (3 format options for FNM could be a burden though).

So I think they are trying to make it a far more accessible format with a lot more support.

I'm ok with the new format, if annoyed at how sudden it was, and the whole killing off a pretty good format, but I do agree with Zamm's points on why they had to do it this way.
Zamm while I do plan to adress your full post late, I would like to say that you failed to adress my main point in that there was no real reason to get rid of the extended format instead of just making a new one allowing those who like it now to still play while giving those who wish to manage a smaller card pool this new "super standard"

I was going to wait for your full response, but I better respond to this now before I forget it's here--I have a bad habit of doing that kind of thing.

I think there were real reasons why WotC chose to create this format by modifying Extended. I'm not, of course, privy to what they actually were, but if I had to guess, I'd say some combination of the following.

First, the upcoming Extended season gives players an significant incentive to at least try out the new format. It effectively gains the format a significant player base for the duration of the PT season automatically.

Second, it could potentially boost attendance and participation at the upcoming PT by effectively changing the format from a less-popular one to one they believe will be more popular.

Third, it keeps the number of formats and metagames players are building for the same, keeping brain strain and attention span problems at bay.

Fourth, it allows them to keep the name. "Extended" is a good name; this way they don't have to come up with a new name, and players don't have to get used to a new name. (I doubt they'd really have wanted the new format's official name to be "Double Standard", anyway. )


I'm probably missing some, but that's what I have for now.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I doubt they'd really have wanted the new format's official name to be "Double  Standard", anyway.



I've heardm some interesting names for it: "Neo Extended," "Neo Standard," "Double Standard" and "Sub Standard."
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Before they banned the format out of existence, I was a proud supporter of Modern.

It's not a matter of sacrificing the minority to appeal to the majority.  It's a matter of taking something that isn't working and trying to turn  it into something that does. Seeing something that they believe needs  improvement and taking the steps necessary to improve it.



Yes,  there are people who loved extended just the way it was--many people.  There were also people who loved banding, people who loved Urza block,  people who loved batches and series, people who loved the pre-8th card  face, people who loved Skullclamp, people who loved affinity, and people  who loved mana burn. Magic has a large enough audience that you can  pretty much guarantee that no matter what changes you make, there will  be a lot of people who will not like it and who will be angry at you.

For  that reason, the fact that making a particular change will make a lot  of people angry is not in itself a sufficient reason to refrain from  making it. A bunch of angry players is not desireable, but it is by far  preferable to certain other problems. For example, a much larger numbers  of disinterested players, and/or a lack of new players joining up. Both  of those problems were something Wizards apparently believed Extended  was suffering.





 For a format that wizards only supported with GP and PT I would say that extended has a fairly large showing and this change really makes no one who currently plays happy except the select few who most likely wouldn't of cared either way. Making changes simply for the sake of getting new customers while a good buisness practice really does not come off as a practice that players like myself who has played nearly a decade enjoy.

If neo-Extended kills off Standard to the point where nobody's playing  it and it makes business sense for Wizards to drop it as a supported  format, sure. If Legacy dies under the weight of the dual lands and  Wizards can come up with a better alternative that will be more popular  with players, sure, why not?




this is perhaps one of the most troubling things I have read for a few reason first you use the term buisness sense and while wizards is a buisness they are also a buisness that relies more on their customers then most when I buy their cards I expect to be able to use them as they have told me I can by playing extended or legacy with them and by simply changing things because they can just does  not sit well it would be like a clothing store telling you after you bought a shirt that instead of being able to wear that shirt every day you can now only wear it monday and tuesday.

At the very least wizards should talk to it's customers before making such radical changes they don't even have to listen so much although we would all enjoy it but simply talking to us and showing that they care about the people who buy their cards now would go a long way and quelling anger and making this decision seem less like an inisde plot against players of now and more like a collective decision of all players.

I disagree. This says absolutely nothing about whether or not Wizards  cares for the 'individual player'. Such a statement is meaningless,  because every group is by necessity a collection of individuals. The  fact that you are an individual and you do not like this change is  countered by the fact that other people are also individuals and do like the change.





While the "individual player" is bad wording on my part what this change shows is that wizards has no relation with their player base beyond charts that show how many are playing Wizards is a company that has a direct relation with it's customer base and making us numbers is slightly distisfying once again if Wizards would of put effort into making it seem like this was a change for the current player base and not for future people who do not play now and their pockets I'm sure me and many other players would be happier




Without new players, Magic dies. Period. There's no way around that  simple fact. Without new players, the player base dwindles until it hits  the point of diminishing returns, and then everything collapses.

It  may not be pretty, but it's true, and the same goes for individual  formats.





It's only recently that wizards has started to make these changes for nearly 17 years they have rarely if ever made changes to attract new players. Legacy is a format that Wizards refuses to touch or even acknowledge half the time and it has more players then extended according to wizards.

Does that mean that players ejoy formats with more sets and the only reason that Standard is the most played format is because it has the most support? Maybe could just mean that legacy has a longer retention period for it's players due to the large amount of different decks it has.  Who knows but what it does show to me is that cuttind down on how large extended is will not change much unless it is given more support like FNM and other events which could of just as easily of been done to old extended.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Zamm while I do plan to adress your full post late, I would like to say that you failed to adress my main point in that there was no real reason to get rid of the extended format instead of just making a new one allowing those who like it now to still play while giving those who wish to manage a smaller card pool this new "super standard"



I was going to wait for your full response, but I better respond to this now before I forget it's here--I have a bad habit of doing that kind of thing.

I think there were real reasons why WotC chose to create this format by modifying Extended. I'm not, of course, privy to what they actually were, but if I had to guess, I'd say some combination of the following.

First, the upcoming Extended season gives players an significant incentive to at least try out the new format. It effectively gains the format a significant player base for the duration of the PT season automatically.

Second, it could potentially boost attendance and participation at the upcoming PT by effectively changing the format from a less-popular one to one they believe will be more popular.

Third, it keeps the number of formats and metagames players are building for the same, keeping brain strain and attention span problems at bay.

Fourth, it allows them to keep the name. "Extended" is a good name; this way they don't have to come up with a new name, and players don't have to get used to a new name. (I doubt they'd really have wanted the new format's official name to be "Double  Standard", anyway. )


I'm probably missing some, but that's what I have for now.





Some points that make sense but none of these seem really strong enough to actually change an entire format.

1. Gaining a playerbase for a season is a pretty bad reason especially since most people who will play in it are either people who would of played regardless or are going to be people playing their Jund decks with some tarmogoyfs thrown in this format really doesn't entice legacy players due to the small card pool and if it attracts standard players it's most likely because now their Jund decks are not going to be as weak as they would of been in old extended. But then again was that not Wizards goal to just allow people to walk into this format from standard with no preperation or real thought.

2. I think I answered two in the last half of one if this format is more popular it wont be because it's more dynamic,diverse or challenging it will simply be because it's easier for standard players who make up the largest format to bring their Jund deck or RDW deck and not get stomped like they would of in old extended. That's really not what I want in a format personally and I don't think others do easier a format should be popular based on what it is not how easy it is to play. I can look at legacy and go "wow cool that guy almost won on turn 1 but the other guy has the counter spell in hand this format seems so strong and fast yet balanced" something like that would make me want to play legacy but now I look at extended and can say "wow his jund deck is only slightly stronger then my standard jund deck I'm sure with some lucky cascades I can beat him"

3. Pointless reason Wizards did not have to support old extended all they had to do was keep it around much like they do to legacy people already play formats that wizards doesn't have sanctioned and make new ones every day. People who would enjoy extended would play it and those who don't want to don't need to look at it.

4. Do I really have to point out a problem with this as I'm pretty sure you saw how silly a reason this is while you were writing it.

Sorry for the late response by the way spent yesterday with my father since he works today.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
For a format that wizards only supported with GP and PT I would say that extended has a fairly large showing[...]

Remember that Wizards has access to statistics such as how many events are being sanctioned at local stores outside of its supported programs, which is a relatively decent measure of player demand for a format. I would tend to trust the broader statistics over your anecdotal opinion of the health of the format, and according to Wizards Extended events haven't been getting sanctioned in "any significant numbers".

You said it yourself: Extended was supported with Grand Prixs and Pro Tours. It's actually always received significantly more support than Legacy has. The last year without any Extended GPs or PTs is...looking back on the coverage, at least ten years ago, probably more; I'm only saying ten years because that's when it stops saying what the format is, and I don't want to have to retroactively deduce the format from the decklists. The last year without any such Legacy events, on the other hand, is 2008, there has never been a Legacy PT, and there has never been more than one Legacy GP in a single year. And yet Extended is still less popular than the nigh-unsupported Legacy.

That should be a good indication that something is seriously wrong with Extended. A format that has existed as long and received as much support as Extended has should be more popular than that.


[...]and this change really makes no one who currently plays happy except the select few who most likely wouldn't of cared either way. Making changes simply for the sake of getting new customers while a good buisness practice really does not come off as a practice that players like myself who has played nearly a decade enjoy.

So you don't enjoy it. Wizards is not in the business of giving established players things they enjoy at the expense of the game as a whole. If something is harming the game as a whole, it should be changed, even if established players enjoy things the way it already is.

this is perhaps one of the most troubling things I have read for a few reason first you use the term buisness sense and while wizards is a buisness they are also a buisness that relies more on their customers then most

Perhaps, but if so it should be noted that they rely on new players more than on established players. Given enough new players running through, the game can survive indefinitely. Given any number of established players, the game will inevitably die as one by one, they either drop out or die off.

The game cannot survive on established players alone. So while pleasing established players may be very much desired,it cannot be the primary goal if Magic is to survive in the long run.


when I buy their cards I expect to be able to use them as they have told me I can by playing extended or legacy with them and by simply changing things because they can just does  not sit well it would be like a clothing store telling you after you bought a shirt that instead of being able to wear that shirt every day you can now only wear it monday and tuesday.

More like a restaurant removing a particular item from their menu. You can still play the old-Extended if you like. You just have to do it without their help.


At the very least wizards should talk to it's customers before making such radical changes they don't even have to listen so much although we would all enjoy it but simply talking to us and showing that they care about the people who buy their cards now would go a long way and quelling anger and making this decision seem less like an inisde plot against players of now and more like a collective decision of all players.

Magic is not a democracy. No doubt Wizards did talk to many of their customers--they gathered information, and then they made a decision based on that information. They just didn't ask us our opinion of that decision in advance. They have almost never asked us our opinion in advance on these kinds of decisions, so why do you expect them to start now?


While the "individual player" is bad wording on my part what this change shows is that wizards has no relation with their player base beyond charts that show how many are playing Wizards is a company that has a direct relation with it's customer base and making us numbers is slightly distisfying once again if Wizards would of put effort into making it seem like this was a change for the current player base and not for future people who do not play now and their pockets I'm sure me and many other players would be happier

Perhaps that information will be found in the Latest Developments column this week that's going to be discussing the matter--it generally is.


It's only recently that wizards has started to make these changes for nearly 17 years they have rarely if ever made changes to attract new players.

In the beginning, Magic attracted people on novelty alone--it was the first, the only thing of its kind. Then it attracted people based on being the biggest, and one of the best. But Magic can't rest on its laurels like that forever if it wants to continue to grow. So they decided to actively try to get new players to join. And apparently it's working.


Legacy is a format that Wizards refuses to touch or even acknowledge half the time and it has more players then extended according to wizards.

Does that mean that players ejoy formats with more sets and the only reason that Standard is the most played format is because it has the most support? Maybe could just mean that legacy has a longer retention period for it's players due to the large amount of different decks it has.  Who knows but what it does show to me is that cuttind down on how large extended is will not change much unless it is given more support like FNM and other events which could of just as easily of been done to old extended.

I don't follow your logic at all here. How did you reach that conclusion?

Some points that make sense but none of these seem really strong enough to actually change an entire format.

As I said, I'm just guessing at their reasons--I'm sure more will be explained on Friday.

1. Gaining a playerbase for a season is a pretty bad reason[...]

Not gaining a playerbase just for a season. Jump-starting the format. Forcing people to at least try it out before deciding whether or not to dismiss it. If they had simply introduced neo-Extended as its own format, people could have dismissed it out of hand as a gimmick, or as just the past couple of Standards mashed together, and gone on with their lives without even trying it.

This way, players are forced to at least try it, and since it's a PT you can expect that the good players aren't going to be satisfied with simply rebuilding their decks from past Standards and assuming that's all the format will allow.

The proof is in the pudding, so get people to try the pudding first.


2. I think I answered two in the last half of one if this format is more popular it wont be because it's more dynamic,diverse or challenging it will simply be because it's easier for standard players who make up the largest format to bring their Jund deck or RDW deck and not get stomped like they would of in old extended. That's really not what I want in a format personally and I don't think others do easier a format should be popular based on what it is not how easy it is to play.

Even if your assertion is true--which I do not agree with--being more popular for reasons you dislike is still being more popular.

I can look at legacy and go "wow cool that guy almost won on turn 1 but the other guy has the counter spell in hand this format seems so strong and fast yet balanced" something like that would make me want to play legacy[...]

Complete side note here--this isn't related to the main discussion at all--but that's not how Legacy works. If the Legacy players could hear you say that their eyes might just roll out of their heads.

3. Pointless reason Wizards did not have to support old extended all they had to do was keep it around much like they do to legacy people already play formats that wizards doesn't have sanctioned and make new ones every day. People who would enjoy extended would play it and those who don't want to don't need to look at it.

Except that there's an Extended PT coming up, so people would in fact be forced to think about Extended, at least for the next little while. This way, all their attention is focused on the format that Wizards wants to try.

4. Do I really have to point out a problem with this as I'm pretty sure you saw how silly a reason this is while you were writing it.

I didn't say they were all fantastically compelling reasons, just the ones I came up with off the top of my head.

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