I concede in response. Handling Quiting Gracefully in MP.

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When playing a single opponent in a duel, when they quit you win (although usually a less satisfying win). In multiplayer though, when one of your opponents quits you don't automatically win...in fact it may just cause you to lose. How does your MP group handing conceding the game?

Example 1. Alpha Strike from no Where.


When playing a MP game with an Attack Left or Attack Adjacent option, a situation might come up in a 4+ player game, with two opponents opposite of each other each with large armies (Lets call them C and A) of creatures and their adjacent opponents with no creatures (B and D). Player D (you) with a large army decides to do an all out attack because the person to their right is a buffer against them being attacked before their next untap step by Player A. Suppose that after you declare all your attackers, the player to your right decides to concede the game before the other person's turn with the large army. This might be because they don't have any answers in their hand to an all out assault from A's army. Now, because Player B conceded you are completely open to an Alpha Strike from Player A. This wasn't a tactically bad decision, it only became a bad decision because B conceded at a bad time.


801.2c The particular players within each player’s range of influence are determined as each turn begins.


801.3. Creatures can attack only opponents within their controller’s range of influence or planeswalkers controlled by those opponents. If no opponents are within a player’s range of influence, creatures that player controls can’t attack.


Example 2. Lifelink? You didn't do any damage.
In this example, you control a Baneslayer Angel enchanted with Armadillo Cloak. You are playing a 5 player game, and you have to opportunity to eliminate a player. You swing for 7 damage in the air, confident that with the 14 life (lets just say everyone is tapped out and you also have Shelter or Dawn Charm in hand) that you are going to gain from the attack that you can survive the coming onslaught from other players. After you declare Baneslayer as an attacker, the defending player decides to concede. This example could just have easily been Thieving Magpie (preventing a draw), Lightning Helix (preventing +3 life), etc.


800.4d If combat damage would be dealt to a player who has left the game, that damage simply isn’t dealt.


Was it a tactically bad decision to attack a player you could kill?
Should you be allowed to gain 14 life as if a goldfish was in place of the defending player?
Is ever ok to concede? Should a concession at anytime be treated as if it happened at the start of that players turn?


Example 3. I'm not going to win, so why should I make it easy for you?
Now, there is nothing wrong as far as I am concerned at striking a blow before you are inevitably removed from the game. I see nothing wrong with emptying your hand of burn in response to someone's killing blow, popping a Seal of Doom (or other Seal) on your way out of the game, but what about abusing cards in ways that were never intended? The rules even mention a good example...


800.4c If an object that would be owned by a player who has left the game would be created in any zone, it isn’t created. If a triggered ability that would be controlled by a player who has left the game would be put onto the stack, it isn’t put on the stack.
Example: Astral Slide is an enchantment that reads, “Whenever a player cycles a card,
 you may exile target creature. If you do, return that creature to the battlefield under its
 owner’s control at the beginning of the next end step.” During Alex’s turn, Bianca uses
 Astral Slide’s ability to exile Alex’s Hypnotic Specter. Before the end of that turn,
 Bianca leaves the game. At the beginning of the end step, the delayed triggered ability
 generated by Astral Slide that would return Hypnotic Specter to play triggers, but it isn’t
 put on the stack. Hypnotic Specter never returns to the battlefield.


So if someone threatens me with burn and I can't life gain my way out of it, I can just cycle a bunch of cards to remove my opponent's creatures, wait for those triggers to resolve, and then concede (or allow them to kill me)...bye, bye creatures.


Nothing prevents your opponents from conceding the game, and it can have large tactical decisions in MP. If your opponents don't think their is anything wrong with conceding a game (in fact the specifically tell you they are conceding to hurt you tactically), what do you think is the best way to handle it? I realize their are several solutions, but I am interested in what you or your group would do.

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example 1 I have no experience with (we rarely play attack left).

My opinoin is to always play until the fat lady sings!

Don't scoop unless you have to go home or catch a train or something like that. In multiplayer you can often still win because when you aren't a threat, people still have to deal with the rest of the board, giving you time to recover.

Scooping early because you are dead totally screws with the game dynamic and it shows you are a bad sport. It also prevents the bluff of having a trick up your sleeve. If you always scoop when you are dead and never when you have a trick up your sleeve, your opponents will always know when you have a trick up your sleeve.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
example 1 I have no experience with (we rarely play attack left).

My opinoin is to always play until the fat lady sings!

Don't scoop unless you have to go home or catch a train or something like that. In multiplayer you can often still win because when you aren't a threat, people still have to deal with the rest of the board, giving you time to recover.

Scooping early because you are dead totally screws with the game dynamic and it shows you are a bad sport. It also prevents the bluff of having a trick up your sleeve. If you always scoop when you are dead and never when you have a trick up your sleeve, your opponents will always know when you have a trick up your sleeve.



Absolutely agree. My single biggest pet hate is Player A investing almost all his resources in swinging for almost lethal damage at Player B, who concedes because not only has he got no answers, but A has overextended and is about to get pantsed by C and D.
Watching the guy across the table from you work out exactly how much damage he needs to deal to get you into the red zone, and then scooping when he could have done the same to other players of the non-scoop variety... it drives me bats.
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I think concession is something that should be handled socially rather than by the rules. I play with a group of friends; we're adults, and we (mostly) act as such. I show up and play with these guys and gals because we've established a mutual respect for each other's inegrity and maturity. This means that aggressive concession (for lack of better term [perhaps it's more passive-aggressive?]) is something that rarely occurs. It's the unspoken rule.


Imagining that we invited someone new to our group who thought aggressive concession was ok, I think the response would be as follows: "You're free to quit the game, but we're going to arbitrate the consequences of that concession to minimalize the impact on the game we're all still playing.". Concession is a necessary evil for those who have to leave the game for unforseen circumstances, not an offensive tool. I'd say player A gives you a turn, the lifelink gains you life, the Hippie returns to play. The player conceeded and has lost their say in what goes on in the game, so let's take to fun of the remaining players into account.

Unforunately, we usually switch to something else when a player concedes. It is either player A conceding because that player made a mistake, or it is player B conceding because that player's deck is underperforming. Both situations tend to correlate with continued poor performance on either player's part.

It might be because of this that our playgroup never plays with adjacent attack-only rules. The closest we have to fixed attacking is Emperor (adjacent attack enemy to one side) or Star (attack the two non-adjacent targets).
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Another unspoken rule could be that one player can concede only during his or her cleanup step (end of it actually).

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Untill recently my playgroup had no particular rules about conceeding the game, but after a brief spew of people leaving the game when they were the sole target of one other players entire offensive that they had built up and thrown their spells into, we (eventually) agree'd that you could only leave the game by conceeding at the end of a players turn. This seems to work reasonably well for us, as its evened the field ever so slightly for some decks.

We briefly had a house rule about pulling out if you don't draw enough land in the first 5 turns but I think that has vanished under the new house rule (being essentially covered by it)

All in all, it seems to work really well for us because it means that when you commit your resources to a massive swing on one player (with say, your massive lifelink trampling creatures) they don't pull out to avoid you gaining massive life and screwing you over vs the other players.
First of all, only being able to attack left or adjacent is the worst way to play. At that point you're not playing multi, you're playing  one on one or two on one and if your deck is multiplayer oriented, it's now screwed for the most part.

Sencond, which was the point of your thread. We don't have people who quit in responce to going to lose or take damage in multi, because they know that the group would lynch them. It's very poor sportsmanship and in the off chance that someone would, we would simply resove whatever effect just to spite them.
We typically just don't quit unless someone has to leave.  We never do it "strategically," as that would ruin the whole spirit of the game.
Our group's house rule is: Players may concede only as a sorcery. 

While of course nothing really stops players from conceding at any time, the house rule is generally accepted as the best way to solve problems like the ones you raise.

Plus everyone in the group agrees that it's incredibly unsatisfying to swing for the kill and have someone resign in response.
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Sencond, which was the point of your thread. We don't have people who quit in responce to going to lose or take damage in multi, because they know that the group would lynch them. It's very poor sportsmanship and in the off chance that someone would, we would simply resove whatever effect just to spite them.

We regard conceding strategically as poor sportsmanship as well.  When someone tries to do it (happens occasionally, though not often), we lay on the peer pressure, and usually they change their mind.

On a related note, we usually frown on play not within the context of a single game; for example, bearing a grudge from game to game.  Spend all of your burn or removal on the player killing you, but don't automatically target them next game.

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I think concession is something that should be handled socially rather than by the rules... "You're free to quit the game, but we're going to arbitrate the consequences of that concession to minimalize the impact on the game we're all still playing.". Concession is a necessary evil for those who have to leave the game for unforseen circumstances, not an offensive tool. I'd say player A gives you a turn, the lifelink gains you life, the Hippie returns to play. The player conceded and has lost their say in what goes on in the game, so let's take to fun of the remaining players into account.

I would say that most of these solutions are how I think it should be handled. You are absolutely correct that the rules probably aren't the best place to handle this. Usually when a player concedes leaving another player open, the open player is given a chance to untap before they are attacked (since their meat shield is gone). I think as you do, that a life linked creature should gain life as if the opponent was still there (other opponents are welcome to Terror / Doom Blade / etc. to mess with combat that they aren't involved with of course). As for the last one, we have been incorrectly playing situations like this for quite a while (returning the opponent's ORinged permanent to play, when Oblivion Ring's controller is removed from the game...We should have kept that permanent exiled). ORing, Astral Slide, Parallax Wave, Otherworldly Journey are all better than I thought they where when you play with the correct rules. I am personally fine with the Hippie staying removed from the game. I just treat this in a similar vein as Lightning Bolting someone for killing you with combat damage (to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee).

First of all, only being able to attack left or adjacent is the worst way to play. At that point you're not playing multi, you're playing  one on one or two on one and if your deck is multiplayer oriented, it's now screwed for the most part.

Second, which was the point of your thread. We don't have people who quit in responce to going to lose or take damage in multi, because they know that the group would lynch them. It's very poor sportsmanship and in the off chance that someone would, we would simply resolve whatever effect just to spite them.

I am going to have to disagree with you here. You are still playing Multiplayer, and you still have opponents that might be within your spell range that you just can't use creature combat to attack. We usually play 5 player, spell range of 2, attack adjacent. Would you argue that Star format is the worst way to play Multiplayer since you can only attack two opponents, although your spells can still target all 4 other players? Attack Adjacent makes combat math easier since you only have worry about attacks from two players. It allows people to attack more aggressively since they can only have to survive 2 combat phases. Sure, this makes combo and control probably a little stronger in this variation, but it also allows aggro players to use Hunted Horror / Forbidden Orchard / Varchild's War-Riders (giving the tokens to an opponent that is seated across the table from you) to place more threats on the board than they can likely deal with quickly enough. You still have to build a well designed MP deck, just different cards are likely to be better in the variant than FFA.

Our group's house rule is: Players may concede only as a sorcery. 

While of course nothing really stops players from conceding at any time, the house rule is generally accepted as the best way to solve problems like the ones you raise.

Plus everyone in the group agrees that it's incredibly unsatisfying to swing for the kill and have someone resign in response.


Conceding as a sorcery does handle at least one of the problems. Although it is unlikely, a player in Player A's situation would concede on their turn after being assaulted by Player D for a considerable amount of damage. They might do this because they believe that Player B's large army is enough to eliminate them and still allow B to have significant defense from D when D untaps. By conceding though, Player B is now free to attack Player D. This isn't a problem in FFA magic of course, and as mentioned to Scumbling the easy solution is to give Player D a turn to untap (since they weren't counting on a player conceding). Thanks for all the responses. Overall, I agree that it should be considered poor sportsmanship to concede a game to strategically hurt another players chances. If players understand that this is unacceptable, and the game will continue in such a way as to make their concession not have any unintended consequences, I think that should solve the problem.

I have nothing against someone conceding if they don't think that they can win (although I personally wouldn't). Example...a player playing an all red deck with a Story Circle and Chill in play, and they don't have an answer in their deck. I would hold out, burning other players to encourage them to disenchant the obstacles to my deck, but I can understand a player deciding to concede because they don't think they have a chance and would prefer to jump into another game at a different table (our group usually has 7-12 players and we usually split up into multiple tables).



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Was playing a draft lastnight. The guy started putting his cards up, he had me beat and was saying, "so that's game."
My reply was, "well you have to attack me first."
Was playing a draft lastnight. The guy started putting his cards up, he had me beat and was saying, "so that's game."
My reply was, "well you have to attack me first."



If you wanted to be a jerk, that could technically be interpreted as that fellow conceding to you IIRC.

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117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
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we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
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Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
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This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
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I agree that conceding is difficult to handle within the rules because you are quitting the game (so why would you bother with the game rules?).

I find it bad sportsmanship to concede before truly dying and I always hang in there even if I have no chance of winning anymore (because I can still annoy my opponents or get real lucky). However, not all the players I play with are truly good sports. Some are sore losers and I have seen people scoop turn 4 on 20 life with no immediate threats on the table because he ate a second Counterspell (and he didn't have to go or do something important, next game he played again).

I have 3 playgroups and it differs very much. One playgroup only has people that handle defeat gracefully, one playgroup has but a single person who sometimes is a sore loser (especially when he is tired or something) and one group has a couple of them. When I play with the group that has a couple of sore losers I don't play more politically, I just make sure I still have fun and I don't let them get to me (eventhough sometimes I went home more annoyed than relaxed because I just had the worst evening, funwise, in my magic career).

It may be difficult but if you are suffering from problems with people conceding just to screw over one player. I would suggest discussing it with those players. I know my other magic players well enough to know with whom I can discuss this seriously and with whom it would be pointless because they are jerks. If your other players are jerks, you can try not to get upset about it and still enjoy the game or find other players.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)

On a related note, we usually frown on play not within the context of a single game; for example, bearing a grudge from game to game.  Spend all of your burn or removal on the player killing you, but don't automatically target them next game.




This is what happens in my playgroup all the time. If I alpha strike one person, effectively killing them, then the next game they will devote all of their resources towards killing me. A part of this is due to knowing what decks my opponents are playing. If anyone is playing a combo deck that is an automatic win if they get it going, I am going to attack and kill that player before then. They will then, as always, say that I targeted them based on my "fear" of what that deck "might" do. But this is just my rant on that particular topic.

As for conceding, I will admit that I made a tactical concession at least once, and it was very memorable because it was a situation like what I wrote above. Because I killed off one player, that same player decided to kill me off as quickly as possible in the next game, even though I wasn't threatening that player at all. Ultimately, he was going to kill me, but another player decided to get in on the action and attacked me with everything. I would have lived if I just took that attack, but I would have died next turn from the guy that actually wants to kill me. So, I made every sacrifice to kill off all of the creatures that the "uninvolved" guy just threw at me, basically ruining his game. I then allowed the player that wanted to kill me to do so, but I quit right before, just so he would have to tap his creatures. Finally, that player who wanted to kill me won the entire game. Simply because his end goal was to kill me, he got a very fast, very powerful deck. And seeing as how it was a multiplayer game, he wanted to win, then, the next game, everybody had a grudge against him.

The point of all of this is to explain the "grudge" factor. Others call it "eye for an eye," but it is simple revenge. And the thing about getting even is that it is all relative. The cycle of revenge will never end; it can only become inflated with more and more powerful decks. Ultimately, everyone has their best decks out and wants to kill everybody just to prove a point, not to just play magic anymore. Then, people who cannot compete with those decks just up and quit because it isn't fun being beaten again and again by, as I would call them, blind animals. If this happens, that is something that would make me concede right off the bat.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains.
Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is. One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scours at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour, you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral. Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion, hedron crab, and curse of the bloody tome, so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements. ​Traumatize Rant​. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes. You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes. If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt. The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab, over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome, are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy. There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus. Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment, it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind, to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it. There are always new strategies coming out with each set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you! Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
The point of all of this is to explain the "grudge" factor. Others call it "eye for an eye," but it is simple revenge.



I have been single targetted for a number of reasons, even grudges that had nothing to do with magic. My friends mostly hold grudges for just the one game that the grudge is made. If you Extirpate my favourite card, you will feel my wrath but I won't alpha strike you the rest of the night. The sportive players never hold grudges from match to match, the less sportive players sometimes do and I have seen people grudging all evening too. Grudge holding beyond the game is bad and luckily it doesn't happen too often in my playgroups.

I will admit that sometime ago I played unsportingly multiple times against one person. I alpha striked somebody multiple times because I love recursion (so I have it in lots of decks) and he played 3 Necrogenesis. Once I saw he was playing his jund deck I started beating him up to prevent him from annoying me with it. He eventually said that it took the fun out of the game for him and ever since I stopped alpha striking someone for something as silly as that. I like the guy and I want to keep playing with him (and I still do).
My point here is that I like to think of myself as a reasonable and sportive person but sometimes that isn't enough. Because he told me how it made him feel that I was alpha striking him over Necrogenesis I realised what I jerk I was, apologized and stopped doing it. He still plays that deck with Necrogenesis and I still find it annoying, but if your not allowed to disrupt each other the game would be no fun real fast.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
I've experienced and taken part in conceding games but it's usually under friendly circumstances. Last night a guy had a win condition utilizing Bazaar Trader, Tormod's Crypt and some artifact I don't remember the name of. There were three of us and the other guy had a Quasali Pridemage out so he was safe. I mostly focused on the Win guy because he could take me out instantly if he got all the pieces together. In the end he took himself out by removing his own graveyard because he thought I had an answer. It changed the dynamic of the game for the other guy and myself taking some of the fun away.

I've conceded in multiplayer but only when it was myself and one other person left and I was certain I couldn't win even if I drew everything I wanted in the next five turns(if I survived that long) In that case I'd rather concede so we have time to start another game rather than waste time on a sure thing.

Grudges can be a nuisance...I'm guilty of it sometimes as well. If a guy comes at me and only me and I know I can't win then I'll throw everything I have back at him in hopes I can keep him from winning as well. Gotta love the politics of multiplayer huh? If everyone is taking a nibble and I'm taken to a point I can't win then sometimes I'll just target the strongest person in hopes of making things a little more equal for the other players so it's more interesting to watch after I die Smile
I will admit that sometime ago I played unsportingly multiple times against one person. I alpha striked somebody multiple times because I love recursion (so I have it in lots of decks) and he played 3 Necrogenesis. Once I saw he was playing his jund deck I started beating him up to prevent him from annoying me with it. He eventually said that it took the fun out of the game for him and ever since I stopped alpha striking someone for something as silly as that. I like the guy and I want to keep playing with him (and I still do).
My point here is that I like to think of myself as a reasonable and sportive person but sometimes that isn't enough. Because he told me how it made him feel that I was alpha striking him over Necrogenesis I realised what I jerk I was, apologized and stopped doing it. He still plays that deck with Necrogenesis and I still find it annoying, but if your not allowed to disrupt each other the game would be no fun real fast.

What's wrong with going to the player that can disrupt your plan the most?

I'm a combo player and my pals know it, if they recognize a combo deck I'm playing I'd understand why they'd go to me (we have the attack left rule most of the time).

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

It ruined the game for that deck. Once I started going all out assault on the single deck, everytime he played it, even if he didn't have the Necrogenesis in play or in hand, he was screwed because he had to use his resources to defend from me. Even if there were much more threatening players at the time (or even cards in hand/play that were much more threatening for me).

It wasn't even the most tactical play because this way I practically handed the game to the other players at the table.

Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
It ruined the game for that deck. Once I started going all out assault on the single deck, everytime he played it, even if he didn't have the Necrogenesis in play or in hand, he was screwed because he had to use his resources to defend from me. Even if there were much more threatening players at the time (or even cards in hand/play that were much more threatening for me).

It wasn't even the most tactical play because this way I practically handed the game to the other players at the table.


Well, if it's mean to him and a bad strategy, I'd say don't do it.  Otherwise, it seems like a reasonable form of feedback to give him, "I don't like Necrogenesis, so I'm going to attack you extra because you have it in your deck."  Presumably if that bothered him, he'd stop running Necrogenesis, unless it was essential to his deck functioning.  Of course, if he only had one or two copies, and rarely drew/played them, then you getting too upset about it seems excessive.  In a related situation, attacking combo decks before they can go off is the only defense some decks even have!  "Sure, you haven't done anything bad yet, but I can't afford to wait!  If you don't like it, don't play decks that leave me no alternative besides killing you."

From time to time someone in my group will play a proxied card (often a Sol Ring or dual land).  I really dislike proxies, so I'll send some extra attacks or a Disenchant their way, even if it would be more strategically directed at another player's Crucible of Worlds.  I hope that by doing so, I can discourage people from playing proxies in the future.  If they don't play the proxies, however, I don't mind the cards cluttering up a person's hand.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
A part of this is due to knowing what decks my opponents are playing. If anyone is playing a combo deck that is an automatic win if they get it going, I am going to attack and kill that player before then. They will then, as always, say that I targeted them based on my "fear" of what that deck "might" do.


Well, you kinda did. The question is why that's a problem. If I'm running a deck with an insta-win combo, I expect the other people to try to take me down and honestly enjoy being barely taken out by two players pooling their resources against me.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
From time to time someone in my group will play a proxied card (often a Sol Ring or dual land).  I really dislike proxies, so I'll send some extra attacks or a Disenchant their way, even if it would be more strategically directed at another player's Crucible of Worlds.  I hope that by doing so, I can discourage people from playing proxies in the future.  If they don't play the proxies, however, I don't mind the cards cluttering up a person's hand.

What do you have against proxies? Our group encourages proxies as a way to level the playing field. This gives players with a limited collection/money a chance to use cards that they never would have the money/chance to purchase. It might be a problem if you like your MP group games to have variety (I know that I would likely play 4xPernicious Deed in every deck, because they are so good), but you can encourage variety by proposing Pauper Deck Week, Peasant Magic, 2HG, Low Ball Magic, EDH, Acid Magic, RPG Magic, Veto Magic, etc.

Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group

What do you have against proxies? Our group encourages proxies as a way to level the playing field. This gives players with a limited collection/money a chance to use cards that they never would have the money/chance to purchase. It might be a problem if you like your MP group games to have variety (I know that I would likely play 4xPernicious Deed in every deck, because they are so good), but you can encourage variety by proposing Pauper Deck Week, Peasant Magic, 2HG, Low Ball Magic, EDH, Acid Magic, RPG Magic, Veto Magic, etc.

That's exactly it.  Variety is important, and most people in my group aren't going to build a new deck every week, especially not for a new format.  In fact, I can't convince one of the guys with the largest collection to even build an EDH deck.  People have no problem with building new casual multiplayer decks, though.  I've currently got about 52 decks built, myself - having this many decks both improves variety and lowers the power level - my one Sol Ring, four Force of Wills, two Wrath of Gods, etc, get spread rather thin.  With proxies, wouldn't everyone's deck just be half Power Nine and friends?
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
With proxies, wouldn't everyone's deck just be half Power Nine and friends?


Depends. Do you game with meanie-faced jerkasauruses?
Personally I occasionally proxie decks I wanna test (such as mah sigil captain deck) or the lightning greaves in my shirei deck because I haven't been in the mood to drop 10 bucks on a pair of real ones yet. Also used mindless nulls as rite of replications because I was using my set in another deck at the time.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
We never concede, except when somebody needs to leave. There is an exception, of course. One time, one of our players really built up an army. He was playing elves, and with Seedborn Muse and Wellwisher there was no way we were able to kill him (it was a Tribal game). Eventually he got huge amounts of tokens, but still he refused to kill us. We told him numerous times he had the game in his pocket, but still 'he needed a piece to kill us'. After a couple of rounds of this, we all conceded, just because it was annoying to wait any longer. After that, I counted up the damage he could deal, and he could kill us all in 1 combat phase, but still he refused.

On the proxy discussion: we did allow them, but only the real fanatic deckbuilders (me and 2 other guys) did, and everybody else was being trumped by the superior decks we churned out. We told them they could do the same, but they didn't want to. We had a vote, and now we don't use them anymore. 
A part of this is due to knowing what decks my opponents are playing. If anyone is playing a combo deck that is an automatic win if they get it going, I am going to attack and kill that player before then. They will then, as always, say that I targeted them based on my "fear" of what that deck "might" do.


Well, you kinda did. The question is why that's a problem. If I'm running a deck with an insta-win combo, I expect the other people to try to take me down and honestly enjoy being barely taken out by two players pooling their resources against me.



In my playgroup most of us truly dislike combo decks in the casual format. Especially "I win" combo's because that leaves the players with just 2 options. Kill you asap or lose while they were just having fun. The problem isn't the losing but it isn't fun if the game ends in a single turn when everybody else is still fighting for the high ground.

We have sometimes said "no combo decks" and some (insert insult here) grabbed his Palinchron infinite combo deck and eventually (after doing a lot of nothing) proclaimed he had infinite mana and killed us all. The rest of us just said, fine, you win, you are out of the game and we will continu without you. He had to sit on the sidelines for over an hour :-)

Proxies we do allow but in just a few cases:
Testing: If a card costs 5+ euros each, you want to  be sure it works the way you want it to. Making half the deck as proxies isn't allowed but up to 12 cards or something is no problem. You must however be willing to buy the card and if you keep playing with the cards, you will have to buy them eventually.

Expensive cards are in other decks: I have 4 Hallowed Fountain and I play 8 of them. I proxied the other 4 (nice full colour foto copies) because I will not pay for another playset when I could in theory just switch the lands if I played with the other deck. Finding that tiresome I proxied them and it even took my friends a while to notice that the lands weren't the real ones. For me these 4 lands are the only proxies I have had for more than a couple of games.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)



We have sometimes said "no combo decks" and some (insert insult here) grabbed his Palinchron infinite combo deck and eventually (after doing a lot of nothing) proclaimed he had infinite mana and killed us all. The rest of us just said, fine, you win, you are out of the game and we will continu without you. He had to sit on the sidelines for over an hour :-)

Proxies we do allow but in just a few cases:
Testing: If a card costs 5+ euros each, you want to  be sure it works the way you want it to. Making half the deck as proxies isn't allowed but up to 12 cards or something is no problem. You must however be willing to buy the card and if you keep playing with the cards, you will have to buy them eventually.




I remember doing something like that palinchron combo, only it was in an emperor battle. I wasn't the emperor, I was a general, and I busted out a coalition victory....."I win....he doesn't win....I win!" is exactly what I said, pointing to my emperor. Everybody thought it was funny, but they were all like WTF!!??

As for proxies: I always buy the cards I proxy. I tested out a lifelink deck with all proxies, (save for basic lands), needless to say, it never lost. But it's not like I constantly play the proxied deck all of the time. I actually refuse to play a deck with too many proxies more than once or twice...I just use proxies to test out a deck idea, and if it works, I buy the cards, otherwise I just scrap it.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains.
Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is. One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scours at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour, you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral. Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion, hedron crab, and curse of the bloody tome, so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements. ​Traumatize Rant​. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes. You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes. If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt. The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab, over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome, are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy. There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus. Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment, it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind, to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it. There are always new strategies coming out with each set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you! Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
I don't know if I'd want to outright ban combo decks but possibly just neuter them a bit. If it's an infinite damage combo either do as Helphelpe said and just continue the game or limit the pieces necessary to fire off the combo to one or two. I have a few combo decks but very very rarely play them because it's not even all that much fun for me when they go off.Of course, that doesn't prevent them from using search cards unless you create a rule there as well...just depends on the players I suppose.

As far as proxies, I'm cool with them as long as the person is actually contemplating buying the cards after they find they work for them. One guy I know won't spend more than $10 on a card though so if he busts out a $70 Nether Void proxy we're gonna have a problem Wink

Helphelpe, that is actually a very good point about proxying cards you already have but don't want to continuosly swap out. I'll have to bring that up in my play groups to see if we can save ourselves some money.
It wasn't even the most tactical play because this way I practically handed the game to the other players at the table.

I've played multi with a lot of dick players, the guys who were cheating, but half the table is on thier side. Granted this wasn't the case for you, but you know what? There's been plenty of times where I've singled out and eliminated one person. Pretty much only ever the ones that deserved it though. lol
Helphelpe, that is actually a very good point about proxying cards you already have but don't want to continuosly swap out. I'll have to bring that up in my play groups to see if we can save ourselves some money.


You should watch that rule though. We had that in my previous playgroup, but one guy started abusing it by buying only 1 expensive card, and proxied the other 3 for a set. Now we have the rule you can only use proxies in a deck were you don't have the originals. So for maximum effect, you still need to have at least a full set of it (or a single one for the restricted cards), and then you can use it in as many decks as you want.

You have to be carefull with proxies indeed. Often it is also possible to use cheaper alternatives in one deck instead of proxying. For example I used Oblivion Stone a while before I got my Pernicous Deed playset for a black green deck.

The only reason I didn't use a cheaper alternative in one of the two decks is because both decks are three colour decks.  One utilizes Eternal Dragon's plainscycling to fix the needed coloured mana and the other uses Windswept Heath. Although one of them is a Bant deck (the other is RWU) and there are plenty of other options I like the way the decks play now. I have next to no chance to get colour screwed and that is worth the proxies. Getting colour screwed just ruins the game so preventing that was the priority, not making the deck stronger.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
Helphelpe, that is actually a very good point about proxying cards you already have but don't want to continuosly swap out. I'll have to bring that up in my play groups to see if we can save ourselves some money.


You should watch that rule though. We had that in my previous playgroup, but one guy started abusing it by buying only 1 expensive card, and proxied the other 3 for a set. Now we have the rule you can only use proxies in a deck were you don't have the originals. So for maximum effect, you still need to have at least a full set of it (or a single one for the restricted cards), and then you can use it in as many decks as you want.





True, only proxying the number of a card you actually have would have to be the rule. Would definitely have saved me from having to buy six Dragonskull Summits, eight Sol Rings, and a host of other mana sources...that alone can kill your wallet after building a few decks
One rule for decks that really even the playing field is that deck total cost must be sub-100$ usd including owned and proxied with a rule about the proxies.  This proxy rule could be like the proxied card has to be sub-10$ and the total proxy amount has to be under 40% deck cost or a cap on the amount of proxies used such as 8 total.

Another thing I think I'd outlaw for proxies is no finite or infinite combos.  Combos are fine but if someone is just going to make a relentless rats deck, channelball, solidarity, etc deck then there is no point in playing a casual game -- take those to the tournaments.
One rule for decks that really even the playing field is that deck total cost must be sub-100$ usd including owned and proxied with a rule about the proxies.  This proxy rule could be like the proxied card has to be sub-10$ and the total proxy amount has to be under 40% deck cost or a cap on the amount of proxies used such as 8 total.

Another thing I think I'd outlaw for proxies is no finite or infinite combos.  Combos are fine but if someone is just going to make a relentless rats deck, channelball, solidarity, etc deck then there is no point in playing a casual game -- take those to the tournaments.


I'm sure there is a better method to level the playing field without actually stifling creativity.

What about alternate formats like Pauper or Peasant?
How about preliminary testing to reveal too-powerful decks, which can be hitherto weeded out from further play?

Actually, now that I realize it, sometimes the problem isn't that a deck is too powerful, but that the other decks are too weak. Sometimes a good but not degenerate deck will benefit the playgroup by forcing the other players to adapt to the new menace; I see this fomenting playskill and deckbuilding skills which otherwise would just lounge around stagnant and effete.

There is, of course, a point where a deck is just too powerful for the average casual meta, but do first try to brainstorm ways to combat the behemoth instead of just balking and raising the banhammer. In this manner you can have fun AND learn something - fantastic!
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You should watch that rule though. We had that in my previous playgroup, but one guy started abusing it by buying only 1 expensive card, and proxied the other 3 for a set. Now we have the rule you can only use proxies in a deck were you don't have the originals. So for maximum effect, you still need to have at least a full set of it (or a single one for the restricted cards), and then you can use it in as many decks as you want.

That still leads to all of your decks playing your most powerful cards.  If anything, that exaggerates the disparity between the players with lots of cards, especially old ones, and the players with smaller collections.  If you don't have proxies, there's a balancing factor as the players with large collections build more and more decks, so that their powerful cards get spread more thinly (as mentioned above).  My Demonic Tutor is in my MBC deck, and my Sol Ring is in my Karn EDH deck, but that means I don't have either of them in my Living Death deck anymore, so the power level there is lower.  This isn't a bad thing.  It means that the guy with only Shards and Zendikar block cards can still compete.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
That still leads to all of your decks playing your most powerful cards.  If anything, that exaggerates the disparity between the players with lots of cards, especially old ones, and the players with smaller collections.  If you don't have proxies, there's a balancing factor as the players with large collections build more and more decks, so that their powerful cards get spread more thinly (as mentioned above).  My Demonic Tutor is in my MBC deck, and my Sol Ring is in my Karn EDH deck, but that means I don't have either of them in my Living Death deck anymore, so the power level there is lower.  This isn't a bad thing.  It means that the guy with only Shards and Zendikar block cards can still compete.

Of course, the guy with only Shards and Zendikar block cards could also still compete if everyone were allowed to proxy. All the decks would be more powerful (most likely), but as I said before you can play different formats/variants. I would recommend everyone playing with the Legacy banned list, as it takes care of most of the swingy overpowered spells. Playing without proxies just makes it so the people who have the most money can make the best decks. Playing with all proxies allowed, means whomever wants to spend the most time designing a deck can make the best decks (teenagers have the advantage here, as us married/working folk have other responsibilities).

Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group


I'm sure there is a better method to level the playing field without actually stifling creativity.



In tournaments there is one thing that helps a lot against combo decks. It is the sideboard. In our multiplayer sessions we switch decks nearly all the time so sideboarding is kind of pointless.

One of the players had an enchantress deck that was legacy quality and he sometimes played it in multiplayer. The only way that deck wouldn't win was by using mass enchantment sweepers. But if every deck I play would have mass enchantment sweeping, I would be pretty gimped in my deck building options and thus in my creativity.

This is just one deck that caused problems. If you know that there once were many more decks like that played by the same guy and others (and they all had but one true weakness, many of them were top legacy decks mildly adapted to multiplayer). You will understand that we as a playgroup kind off banned decks like that because it stimulates creativity and fun.

Introducing other formats has failed a bit in most of my playgroups until I entered a new one in which they already played EDH. Now I have that playgroup with EDH and I am working on getting the other playgroups excited for EDH too.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)

I'm sure there is a better method to level the playing field without actually stifling creativity.

In tournaments there is one thing that helps a lot against combo decks. It is the sideboard. In our multiplayer sessions we switch decks nearly all the time so sideboarding is kind of pointless.(agreed that sideboarding is pointless in MP, unless you play multiple games in a row with the same decks. Most groups don't do this.)

One of the players had an enchantress deck that was legacy quality and he sometimes played it in multiplayer. The only way that deck wouldn't win was by using mass enchantment sweepers. But if every deck I play would have mass enchantment sweeping, I would be pretty gimped in my deck building options and thus in my creativity.(Mass Enchantment sweeping isn't the only solution, but it is a good one. A turn one Underworld Dreams ,Aura of Silence (a singleton Presence of the Master and a tutor to find it would be funny), Damping Engine/Ward of Bones (any color) should help prevent the Enchantress from going off. Leave No Trace / Spring Cleaning, should wipe out their board also without having to resort to mass enchantment destruction. Or you can always have hasty Yavimaya Enchantress / Aura Gnarlid (perhaps enchanted with Ancestral Mask) and play into their strengths. . I am sure their are other answers in every color, but it would depend upon which particular enchantments it uses. Does every deck have to have answers to every deck. No. If your deck has no answers for a particular deck, you can focus all your damage on that opponent. If everyone is going to lose the "that deck", then everyone will focus all their damage on that deck. If anything, a quality deck that never loses breeds more creativity in deck building.

This is just one deck that caused problems. If you know that there once were many more decks like that played by the same guy and others (and they all had but one true weakness, many of them were top legacy decks mildly adapted to multiplayer). You will understand that we as a playgroup kind off banned decks like that because it stimulates creativity and fun. (I think that is more a problem of the playgroup, and not of proxies. If I have built a deck that is well tuned that always wins, I just dismantle it after playing it for a while. What is the point of playing a deck that no one else can beat. After I have proven that the deck is good, I just move on.) Sure, their are legacy decks that are rather unfun to play against (high tide, storm comes to mind because the turn takes so long), but is it any more unfun than playing against a white Test of Endurance deck with 8x"I win the Game" cards, 12x Soul Warden cards, Martyr of Sands, etc. Any deck that is skewed to one permanent type is difficult for most MP decks to handle, because most MP decks are designed to try to pack at least a couple of answers to every type of permanent.

Introducing other formats has failed a bit in most of my playgroups until I entered a new one in which they already played EDH. Now I have that playgroup with EDH and I am working on getting the other playgroups excited for EDH too.(It is difficult to introduce something new, as most people don't like change. Humans are a lazy bunch. We decided to have a Pauper week, and it took about 4 weeks before everyone had completed their decks. I had completed an Aggro deck, Control deck, and a Combo deck at the end of the 1 week.)



Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group

I think that is more a problem of the playgroup, and not of proxies.



Proxies aren't the way we lvl the playing field. We just stifly creativity a little bit by mildly banning combo decks to give creativity with the entire field of decks more room (paradoxical I know).

The main problem with most of the answers you named for the enchantress deck is that they are pretty much dead cards if enchantress isn't played. The deck wasn't played intensively so it would too often be a dead card in your deck. In tournaments sideboards can be the right place for cards like that but this is casual MP.

I once had a deck (my Ghostway deck) that if not teamed up on swiftly, it would win. It would only take pretty long (and I did play test of endurance for a while). Eventually it became play it and die swiftly because everybody recognizes the deck and gangs up on me or don't play it. So I recently took the deck apart to play the cards in other decks. 


Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
The simple solution to Combo decks is discard.

Why is this?
The reason is that Combo decks have cards with specialized functions. There will likely be cards that feed the combo's engine (Dark Ritual et al), cards focused on increasing card quality or card advantage (Brainstorm et al), cards that protect the combo (Duress et al), and cards that kill your opponent (Tendrils of Agony et al). A combo deck will often need some critical mass of spells or permanents in play to "go off," so early discard can critically hamper a combo deck by removing the ability of that deck to reach that critical mass. I know that Enchantress decks need to hit a critical mass of enchantments in play, and it really doesn't function well if you remove an Argothian Enchantress or Enchantress' Presence.

There is a problem with 1-for-1 discard spells in multiplayer, I realize. Namely, that they are a lot less powerful given the scope of players and their associated cards in hand. So just run global or repeatable discard.

The cool thing about this is that discard is also fantastic against Control decks, so its not like discard is useless if no one is playing Combo.

capitan_estaban mentioned a bit about ganging up on the boogeyman deck (like Enchantress), which would discourage a player from playing something overly powerful compared to the other decks. Have you guys tried this?

Bottom line is that you should be considering universal answers instead of niche ones.

But if every deck I play would have mass enchantment sweeping, I would be pretty gimped in my deck building options and thus in my creativity.


There are other options.

Discard
Bounce @ Enchantress' Presence
Mass removal @ Argothian Enchantress

You argue that decks that force you to build around them are stifling your creativity, but I'd opine that they are actually fostering creativity by forcing you to expand beyond the limited scope of cards and strategies you once used.

In fact, isn't every opponent you play against forcing you to play certain sets of cards?
Will you not begin to use removal spells when you discover that you need to be able to kill a pesky creature to actually have a fighting chance in a matchup?
Would you not add discard so that a combo deck doesn't just steamroll you in the first few turns of the game?
Would you not hasten your deck's clock so that you can kill that opponent before he drops some titanic creature that would void your entire game plan?

Do any of these changes not improve your deck overall, or are they indeed choke-holds that impede creativity and deckbuilding freedom?
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