Sir Slidesalot (Ardent/Fighter/Stygian Adept/Demigod, Spammable Demo Strike that Dazes/Slides)

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Sir Slidesalot

Ardent/Stygian Adept/Topaz Crusader



Sir Slidesalot

Build Goal:  To create a master of battlefield positioning and area effect debuffing capable of spamming a Demoralizing Strike that debuffs, slides, and slows.  In addition, to optimize the Second Wind features of Ardent to produce a fully functional healer/leader.  And, finally, to mix in basic attack granting and enabling, for those that can't take advantage of the area effect debuffing.

Sir Slidesalot

Half-Elf Ardent/Fighter/Stygian Adept/Topaz Crusader

Theme: Noble Adept

Ability Scores
Level 1: Str 13 Con 16 Dex 12 Int 8 Wis 13 Cha 18
Level 30: Str 15 Con 24 Dex 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 28 

Skills
Bluff +29, Diplomacy +33, Streetwise +29, Intimidate +31, Endurance +27

Defenses
AC 51 = 10 + 15 + 20 (plate) + 2 (shield) + 3 (TC) + 1 (spec)
Fort 50 = 10 + 15 + 7 + 6 + 1 (class) + 3 (id) + 4 (epic) + 2 (TC) + 2 (*dc)
Ref 44 = 10 + 15 + 2 + 6 + 3 (id) + 4 (epic) + 2 (TC) + 2 (shield)
Will 46 = 10 + 15 + 9 + 6 + 1 (class) + 3 (id) + 2 (TC)

Immune to daze, dominate, polymorph, immobilize, restrain

Hit Points/Surges/Power Points
Hit Points 179, Bloodied 89, Surge Value 44, Surges per Day 13
Power Points 20

Initiative/Movement
Initiative +23 (15+2+6)
Speed 5

Powers
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike (Cha)
AW 1: Energizing Strike
AW 1: Demoralizing Strike
Enc 1: Battle Awareness Feat
Daily 1: Implanted Suggestion
Utility 2: Sympathetic Agony
AW 3: Ire Strike
Daily 5: Invitation to Defeat
Utility 6: Grit and Spittle (retrain to Evade Attack at level 21)
AW 7: Forward Thinking Cut (replaces Ire Strike)
Daily 9: Passage of Swords
Utility 10: Tower of Iron Will
Enc 11: Stygian Strike
Utility 12: Haunting Shadows
AW 13: No change
Daily 15: Coordinated Effort (replaces Implanted Suggestion)
Utility 16: Reactive Resistance
AW 17: Terrifying Deluge (replaces Focusing Strike)
Daily 19: Mind Rend (replaces Passage of Swords)
Daily 20: Subconscious Horror
Utility 22: Rapid Recovery
AW 23: Revelatory Slash (replaces Forward-Thinking Cut)
Daily 25: Corona of Battle (replaces Mind Rend)
Daily 26: Topaz Corona
AW 27: No change
Daily 29: Violent Spark (replaces Coordinated Effort)

Feats
L1: Battle Awareness
L2: Flail Expertise
L4: Wind of Sympathy
L6: Bolstering Mantle
L8: Shield Proficiency (Light)
L10: Timely Respite (retrain to Versatile Master at 11)
L11: Hindering Shield
L12: Striking Resurgence
L14: Improved Ardent Surge
L16: Improved Defenses
L18: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
L20: Bolstering Wind
L21: Epic Recovery
L22: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
L24: Epic Reflex
L26: Epic Fortitude
L28: Armor Proficiency (Plate)
L30: Armor Specialization (Plate)

Items
Staggering Alhulak +6, Benefactor Godplate +6, Timeless Locket +6, Focused Shield, Diamond Cincture (Paragon), Strikebacks, Spark Slippers, Battle Standard of the Hungry Blade, Iron Ring of the Dwarf Lords (x2), Cloak of the Walking Wounded


Demoralizing Strike: The core of the build is a sliding, slowing, debuffing 1+Con defenses, close burst 1 Demoralizing Strike.  At level 30, it is possible to use the aug 2 of Demo Strike an astounding 10 times (more if you recover power points).  With a Staggering Weapon, Demo Strike, thanks to Stygian Adept, slides 1+6=7 squares.  Plus more if you wanted to add Rushing Cleats or Bludgeon Expertise+Hammer.  This build can pretty much put monsters exactly where it wants on the battlefield, and set them up for powerful burst/area attacks.  Unaugmented, you can knock prone via Flail Expertise.

How Does Demoralizing Strike Slide and Slow?

Fleeing Fear from Stygian Adept makes it slide, and the Hindering Shield (taken at level 11) feat makes anything that slides while you're using a shield also slow.  (See the relevant Customer Service rulings in the next post).  Terrifying Deluge slides/slows both when you do it, and when the ally hits, and Stygian Strike gains a slide in addition to the push also.


Ideal Party to Work With Slidesalot: Ideally, the party can take advantage of the area effect debuff and positioning with multitarget powers.  Imagine Sir Slides and a defender with 3 monsters in between them.  SS can Demo Strike, and the defender (a fighter, say) could Cruel Reaper with a huge bonus to hit.  Sorcerers and any area effect users work beautifully with this debuff.  World Serpent's Grasp also becomes an incredible feat for any of these party members to take, since you will be keeping multiple monsters slowed all the time (it's not so good for us, though, because Hindering Shield only slows until the start of our next turn).

"Angry Birds" Action Points:  A common tactic is to pull monsters to Sir Slides and spend an action point to Demo Strike them all, sliding them back out debuffed, slowed and squawking like angry birds =)  Terrifying Deluge can pull monsters in a close burst 2, and the incredible Invitation to Defeat can pull everything in a close burst 5.  This daily is so strong, it can pull, weaken, debuff defenses (Demo Strike AP), and give Con+Cha extra damage when hit (Stygian Adept AP feature).  Sir Slides can "borrow" monsters, debuff them, then send them back out to their respective targets w/Demo Strike.

Staggering Weapon, Spark Slippers, and Item Dependence

Sir Slides is not too item dependent, but a Staggering Weapon is kind of essential to really take advantage of the positioning.


Why No Hammer+Bludgeon Expertise+Overwhelming Impact for Daze?

I chose to eliminate the epic dazing at-wills in this build, mainly because other than second wind basic attacks (from Striking Resurgence) and Stygian Strike, Sir Slides is unlikely to be using melee attacks.  Mostly, he will be doing close bursts or granting attacks, none of which benefit from the daze.  The +1 to hit that is lost from switching to hammer is just more relevant imo, since it strongly penalizes all the close bursts.  Plus Flail Expertise is excellent on our basic attacks, letting us knock prone.


Second Wind Optimization: Sir Slidesalot can spend 2 second winds an encounter at epic.  His second wind grants a free basic attack (which slides 7 squares and slows or knocks prone), a free second wind to an ally (Wind of Sympathy), free hit points to all in the mantle radius (Bolstering Wind), and a free saving throw to an ally in the mantle radius (Bolstering Mantle).  All of this without even losing an attack!

Fearsome Zone and the Power of Defense:  Ardents are commonly considered to be somewhat weak defensively, but this really isn't the case (at least in paragon/epic).  Once Fearsome Zone kicks in, the Ardent is often effectively +2 against all melee attacks, while also debuffing the monsters for allies with an area -2 penalty.  Once Topaz Crusader arrives, SS picks up an enormous boost to all defenses as well as many immunities.

Saving Throws:  Sir Slides makes the rather unusual choice of using Bolstering Mantle and Sympathetic Agony to deal with saving throws rather than taking Focusing Strike.  If your DM allows Mark of Healing, by all means, take it (consider Shared Vigor at 19, then, and keeping Coordinated Effort at 29).  Sympathetic Agony is nice for dealing with a nasty condition on a striker.  You can take it, then Grit and Spittle it away (which grants an additional save to another ally via Bolstering Mantle).  (Or, at epic, often just ignore it, because it's something Topaz Crusader gives us immunity to).  Bolstering Mantle can be triggered with an Energizing Strike giving us a surge, with second winds, or with powers like Grit and Spittle and Coordinated Effort.

Melee Basic Attacks/Enabling:  Sir Slides is no warlord or animist shaman, but he's not bad in the attack granting department, at least for melee basics.  Starting at level 3, the build always has an attack-granting power such as Ire Strike, Forward Thinking Cut, and Revelatory Slash.  FTC, in particular, is so strong it's ridiculous; a warlord would kill to have a 3 attack power (1 on off, 2 on focus) that doesn't even require a hit to trigger the charges.  This power crushes warlord powers like On My Mark, Signal the Charge, and Race the Arrow due to not needing an attack roll (with the admitted drawback that the ardent must be adjacent to an enemy, and the party must have two characters who can charge).  Stygian Strike is also a nice positioning/attack granting power (both pushing and sliding/knocking prone).

SS lacks the ranged capability of Warlord's Direct the Strike or Shaman's Spirit Infusion until level 23, when Revelatory Slash fills this role; granting two at-wills can be extremely strong, especially if SS has been paired with a sorcerer or other multiattacker (Demo Strike + Revelatory Slash, etc).

Initiative and Mobility... Looks Awful!:  It is the one glaring weakness of the build.  Coordinated Effort can help somewhat by giving a minor action flying move in the first round.  Boots of Speed should be highly sought after.  Heavy Armor Agility could also be taken if you really feel like your Slidesalot needs a speed of 6.

Front-Loaded:  Like all my builds, I tried to make SS strong right from level 1.  Battle Awareness plus a Dilettante Eldritch Strike gives a super strong extra encounter power.  Not only does SS get a guaranteed extra attack, but the attack is an interrupt that slides, and so it can also foil a monster attack.  Wind of Sympathy early also adds a lot of healing "ooomph" at low levels when most likely to run out of resources.  I also chose Ire Strike at level 3 so that the build can be aiding and abetting thieves, rogues, slayers, barbarians, etc., right away instead of waiting for level 7 and Forward Thinking Cut.

Relevant Customer Service Rulings that prompted me to build this in the first place:


Thank you for contacting us. Here are the answers I found:

1. Will Hindering Shield + Fleeing Fear + Demoralizing Strike slow a target?


A: Yes, this will slow a target.


2. Will Rushing Cleats + Fleeing Fear + Demoralizing Strike add a square to the fleeing fear slide?


A: Yes, this would.


3. Will a Staggering Weapon + Fleeing Fear + Demoralizing Strike add squares to the fleeing fear slide?


A: Yes, this would again slide the target.





Edited this next one to delete descriptions.


Terrifying Deluge concerning the unaugmented version of Terrifying Deluge. When an ally hits the target, you can slide it.


1. Does Hindering Shield work with this slide to slow the target?


Unfortunately, I'm not able to locate the information for Hindering Shield. Please reply back with where you found the information for Hindering Shield and I'll be happy to assist you with this question.


 


 


2. Do Rushing Cleats work with this slide and add a square to it?


Yes, Rushing Cleats states: "deleted"  Since Terrifying Deluge is a melee attack, Rushing Cleats could increase its slide by 1 square.


 


 


3. Does a Staggering Weapon work with this slide and add squares to it?


Yes, the property for Staggering Weapon states: " deleted" Since you would be using your power to slide the target, you can add the Staggering Weapon's Enhancement to the slide of Terrifying Deluge.


 


I hope this information is useful. Please let me know if you need anymore help!


 




reserved
I like the look of this build.  The spacing got killed, though!
[20:53] [SadisticFish] yeah Llamas convinced me
Yeah trying to figure out why that happened.  It looks fine in "preview post"... no matter how many carriage returns I put in between lines, it's still collapsing them all.

EDIT
Well, ok, now I got it to work, but with an extra carriage return after each line.  Better than collapsing everything into one paragraph, anyway. 
If you give the permission, i will link this build as a sample con-build in my handbook.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

If you give the permission, i will link this build as a sample con-build in my handbook.



Sure, go for it =)

The "gold" ranking is meant for the once-in-a-lifetime option that is so overpowered that everybody needs it; options that are great to excellent are what sky-blue is for. If a build has ten to fifteen gold options, then that appears to be mere rating inflation and not what the color is for.

Note that overwhelming impact specifies melee attack, you won't be dazing on any bursts.
The "gold" ranking is meant for the once-in-a-lifetime option that is so overpowered that everybody needs it; options that are great to excellent are what sky-blue is for. If a build has ten to fifteen gold options, then that appears to be mere rating inflation and not what the color is for.




Yeah, I was copying the Tank 3.0 post, which had a similar proportion of gold ratings.  I think he was using them in the context of the build itself (i.e. gold = only option for this build), rather than as a general rating for all options for all builds like in guides.  Easy enough to change though.

Note that overwhelming impact specifies melee attack, you won't be dazing on any bursts.



Yeah, good find.  So looks like the default Eldritch Strike, Terrifying Deluge, and Demoralizing Strike will daze, but the close burst deluge and demo will only slow (not that this is bad).

Edited to reduce some golds and fix the aoe daze thing.

I still think the build has a lot going for it even without the close burst daze.

Terrifying Deluge as an unaugmented at-will that can slide a potential 17 squares while slowing and dazing is really quite spectacular.  I think this power's been underrated/overlooked.  Admittedly, it takes stygian adept to give it an initial slide, and the hindering shield/overwhelming impact combo to kick it into high gear.

Also, the find of Bolstering Mantle+Striking Resurgence for a save-grant+second wind+dazing/sliding basic attack.
Yeah... with Stygian Adept + Hindering Shield + Overwhelming Impact it's a great at-will.  By itself, it's pretty terrible

To fix the formatting of the initial post, I think it was either borg or kilpatds who found that you can use the little HTML button at the top of the editing field to remove the < p > and < / p > tags and fix the line break issue.  Then you can reduce it to single line break
[20:53] [SadisticFish] yeah Llamas convinced me

To fix the formatting of the initial post, I think it was either borg or kilpatds who found that you can use the little HTML button at the top of the editing field to remove the < p > and < / p > tags and fix the line break issue.  Then you can reduce it to single line break



Thanks, this worked.

I really really like this build. You found a goal and have executed it. AND the build works in lower tiers as well.

My biggest concern is future proofing. This character is optimized for the available choices now, but as soon as a psionic supplement comes out I think 1/3 of these feats will change. The stat split really hurts our reflex, and I wish we could avoid that, but meh.

Feats that I could easily see replaced in the future:
level 6 - Mark of Healing
level 10 - Skill Power
level 14 - Improved Ardent Surge
level 16 - Hammer Rhythm
level 20 - Bolstering Mantle (Maybe keep it - I think there will better options)
level 24 - Martial Resolve. I haven't played an epic tier game, so maybe this is more effective than I think
level 26 - Superior Intitative. Really good, but I could see it replaced for something that meshes.

In summay: The stat array bugs me. I want to put more into dex to cover reflex. And if Battle Awareness didn't require 13str 13 wis I'd easily drop hammer rhythm and martial resolve..hmmm

Also: How do you plan on dealing with fear-immunity?


I also built the char mostly on DDI. I personally made my skills more party face oriented.
DDI Importable

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
SirSlidesaLot, level 30
Half-Elf, Ardent, Stygian Adept, Demigod
Build: Euphoric Ardent
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Ardent Mantle: Mantle of Elation
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 26, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 28.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 27 Fort: 36 Reflex: 33 Will: 37
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +29, Streetwise +29, Diplomacy +31, Bluff +29, Endurance +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Dungeoneering +17, Heal +17, History +15, Insight +19, Nature +17, Perception +17, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Thievery +17, Athletics +17

FEATS
Level 1: Battle Awareness
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Impending Victory
Level 8: Mark of Healing
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 14: Improved Ardent Surge
Level 18: Striking Resurgence
Level 20: Bolstering Mantle
Level 21: Overwhelming Impact
Level 22: Epic Recovery
Level 24: Martial Resolve
Level 26: Superior Initiative
Level 28: Robust Defenses
Level 30: Epic Reflexes

POWERS
Ardent at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Ardent at-will 1: Energizing Strike
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Skill Power: Indomitable Ally
Ardent daily 1: Implanted Suggestion
Ardent utility 2: Dimension Swap
Ardent at-will 3: Focusing Strike
Ardent daily 5: Fate Exchange
Ardent at-will 7: Forward-Thinking Cut (replaces Focusing Strike)
Ardent daily 9: Passage of Swords
Ardent at-will 13: Focusing Strike (replaces Energizing Strike)

ITEMS
Staggering Mordenkrad +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
I really really like this build. You found a goal and have executed it. AND the build works in lower tiers as well.



Thanks!


My biggest concern is future proofing. This character is optimized for the available choices now, but as soon as a psionic supplement comes out I think 1/3 of these feats will change. The stat split really hurts our reflex, and I wish we could avoid that, but meh.



A couple of things about the defenses (including Reflex).  Skill Power - Prescient Defense gives +2 to all defenses as an interrupt.  This is really good.  Also, the hammering shield adds +1 to all defenses when you hit with a hammer.  So it's a better build defensively than it appears.  Stuff like vs. Reflex attacks that immobilize/slow will be very annoying though until we get Martial Resolve; could use Boots of Rapid Motion in heroic.


Feats that I could easily see replaced in the future:
level 6 - Mark of Healing
level 10 - Skill Power
level 14 - Improved Ardent Surge
level 16 - Hammer Rhythm
level 20 - Bolstering Mantle (Maybe keep it - I think there will better options)
level 24 - Martial Resolve. I haven't played an epic tier game, so maybe this is more effective than I think
level 26 - Superior Intitative. Really good, but I could see it replaced for something that meshes.



Yeah, feats are flexible at the moment.  We'll see what happens when we get more support.  I do intend to keep up with this character as new psionic options are printed.


In summay: The stat array bugs me. I want to put more into dex to cover reflex. And if Battle Awareness didn't require 13str 13 wis I'd easily drop hammer rhythm and martial resolve..hmmm



You could consider a normal "Student of the Sword" MC retrain at level 11.  This lets you put your stats however you like, as long as you have Str 13 at paragon.  Something like Cha 16 Con 16 Dex 12 Str 12 is doable, gaining 1 on your Reflex and 1 on your Fort.  But I think Battle Awareness will be amazing in this build at heroic tier with Eldritch Strike (like getting a free encounter power that adds an attack and prevents an attack).


Also: How do you plan on dealing with fear-immunity?



Eldritch Strike is still a very good at-will at paragon/epic, and Energizing Strike is good in heroic.  Plus none of our dailies are fear-based, and stuff like Revelatory Slash is still great to hand out attacks.  So we're never completely shut down due to fear immunity.


I also built the char mostly on DDI. I personally made my skills more party face oriented.
DDI Importable

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
SirSlidesaLot, level 30
Half-Elf, Ardent, Stygian Adept, Demigod
Build: Euphoric Ardent
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Ardent Mantle: Mantle of Elation
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 28.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 26 Fort: 36 Reflex: 32 Will: 37
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +29, Streetwise +29, Diplomacy +31, Bluff +29, Endurance +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Arcana +15, Dungeoneering +17, Heal +17, History +15, Insight +19, Nature +17, Perception +17, Religion +15, Stealth +16, Thievery +16, Athletics +18

FEATS
Level 1: Battle Awareness
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Mark of Healing
Level 8: Impending Victory
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 14: Improved Ardent Surge
Level 16: Hammer Rhythm
Level 18: Striking Resurgence
Level 20: Bolstering Mantle
Level 21: Overwhelming Impact
Level 22: Epic Recovery
Level 24: Martial Resolve
Level 26: Superior Initiative
Level 28: Robust Defenses
Level 30: Epic Reflexes

POWERS
Ardent at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Ardent at-will 1: Energizing Strike
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Skill Power: Indomitable Ally
Ardent daily 1: Implanted Suggestion
Ardent utility 2: Dimension Swap
Ardent at-will 3: Focusing Strike
Ardent daily 5: Fate Exchange
Ardent at-will 7: Forward-Thinking Cut (replaces Focusing Strike)
Ardent daily 9: Passage of Swords
Ardent at-will 13: Focusing Strike (replaces Energizing Strike)

====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



My one observation here is you can't take Physician's Care at 6 and Prescient Defense at 10, so obv. need a different feat at 10.

Also I don't see the Hindering Shield retrain in the DDI build... need that to be in there at level 12.

Ya I really like the Battle Awareness - It prevents the attack and damages them, but the stat array just saddens me. I'm sure I can get over it and am just being nit picky. I think I figured out a way to fix it a bit though. Drop 1 point from str and add 2 to dex. Ending up with:
Str: 13
Con: 14+2=16
Dex 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 16+2=18

This adds 1 to Reflex and 1 to initiative. This would either delay Hammer Rhythm to epic, or drop it completely (which will probably happen as soon as this build has more options).

The DDI build was just meant to be a building block for people. I didn't quite finish it off. I just assumed it would help people who were looking at this build. Hindering Shield isn't on DDI - it only has up to dragon 383. Hindering Shield is in 385.

And ya I know about the Skill Power. I was going to look into it and make changes, was just trying to make the build the same as yours (besides the skills as I'd like it to be more oriented to be the party face).

Why are we waiting til lvl 12 to get a staggering weapon? Why not use a staggering from level 2+? The additional squares slid would be nice


And why bother with the Mordenkrad? It's 7dmg vs 5.5 per dice which is nice, but it comes at the cost of a feat and having to sell the old weapon for the new.


While we're at it, let's switch from hammer to sword as it's more accurate and the only reason to keep it was hammer rhythm. avg of 4.5 dmg or 5.5 if held 2 handed(Pre-shield) and it has +1 to hit(huge in my book). I'll update my build soon.


Hmmm this kind of thinking makes me tempted to go polearm and harass that way.. Polearm momentum or Polearm Gamble would be awesome on this build.Polearm momentum = they are knocked prone at the end of slides. Polearm Gamble = Opportunity attack(MBA - Eldritch Strike) against any opponent who enters an adjacent square = slide away = INFINITE Prevent melee attacks by sliding them away.. ok I must make Polearm gamble work.
EDIT: How essential is Hindering Shield? hmm can you type what it does so I can better understand it? I'm thinking polearm gamble might be more valuable as there is no 1 handed polearm to be able to hold a shield. 


Ya I really like the Battle Awareness - It prevents the attack and damages them, but the stat array just saddens me. I'm sure I can get over it and am just being nit picky. I think I figured out a way to fix it a bit though. Drop 1 point from str and add 2 to dex. Ending up with:
Str: 13
Con: 14+2=16
Dex 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 16+2=18




Interesting.. +1 Reflex/Init vs. Hammer Rhythm.  I think you're right that +1 Reflex is better here.
You could already argue Weapon Focus is as good a feat as Hammer Rhythm, given how often we'll be hitting debuffed monsters.  I'll think about this a bit more before changing it, but I'm liking this array.


Why are we waiting til lvl 12 to get a staggering weapon? Why not use a staggering from level 2+? The additional squares slid would be nice

And why bother with the Mordenkrad? It's 7dmg vs 5.5 per dice which is nice, but it comes at the cost of a feat and having to sell the old weapon for the new.





You need a hammer for Overwhelming Impact.  Mordenkrad is 8 dmg average (2d6 brutal 1) vs. warhammer 5.5.  2.5 is a rather large difference at heroic tier.  Only reason we use the shield is because it's needed for the combo.

Polearm is a different build concept altogether (I recommend the Cha/Wis ardent if you go that route), since you can't get to daze w/Overwhelming Impact (it requires a hammer).

Ya.. If only I had the stats to roll polearm gamble and polearm momentum

rant about polearms
Polearm gamble is basically battle awareness, but in infinite/encounter instead of once and polearm gamble knocks prone which is almost as good as daze, but this happens at lvl 11.

I feel like I have something here, just  doesn't quite meet this class' stat requirements else it'd be awesome. Need polearm gamble with a mba that slides and polearm momentum.. so 15 str, 15 dex, 15 wis. Might as well throw on heavy blade opportunity at that point.

Why are there no polearms with hammers on the end? bah.



Anyways, enough ranting. Have you considered Hammering Iron(PHB3)? I dunno if an addition push would help, but ya. Updated the DDI build. We now have an open slot at 16.
I changed the starting stat array to Dex 12 Str 13.  Definitely better.  Took Paragon Defenses in place of Hammer Rhythm.
Thunder Hammer (MP) might be something to look at. -2 to saving throws vs slow, daze, immob, or stun when using a hammer or mace. Heroic Feat for fighter. 15 con.

Rapidstrike Bracers also might be a consideration, but you can't get them til lvl 15
I've been thinking about a Battlemind|Ardent version of this build lately, and I'm curious as to your opinion.  You'd lose one Ardent Surge per encounter, but the feat you would spend on Shield Proficiency becomes Hybrid Talent instead and nets you both Heavy Shields and Scale armor.  You also gain an amazing mark and Lightning Rush, which would let you punish people you've slid away if they manage to attack an ally.  I also think the Nightmare Vortex power could be quite funny with a build based around fear slides.

Also, with Stygian Adept and the Battlemind level 3 at will Visons of Terror you could theoretically push opponents (slowing them with hindering shield) and then slide them as well (dazing them with hindering shield.  And with the Augment 2 of the power, you could basically go bowling for bad guys and send them flying all over the map while also dazing them.  Does it work like that?  Would you do your push movement and then do your slide movement, allowing Hindering Shield to proc twice?

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
ArdenetBMslider, level 13
Half-Elf, Ardent|Battlemind, Stygian Adept
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Ardent Mantle (Hybrid): Mantle of Elation (Hybrid)
Hybrid Ardent: Hybrid Ardent Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Battlemind Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 21, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 21 Will: 25
HP: 94 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +14, Heal +12, Diplomacy +18, Endurance +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +5, Bluff +11, Dungeoneering +7, History +5, Intimidate +11, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +5, Stealth +4, Streetwise +11, Thievery +4, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Toughness (retrained to Battle Awareness at Level 11)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Bolstering Mantle
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Hammer) (retrained to Striking Resurgence at Level 12)
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Hindering Shield

POWERS
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Bull's Strength
Hybrid at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Skill Power: Prescient Defense
Hybrid daily 1: Battleborn Acuity
Hybrid utility 2: Dimension Swap
Hybrid at-will 3: Visions of Terror
Hybrid daily 5: Nightmare Vortex
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Hybrid at-will 7: Lightning Rush (replaces Bull's Strength)
Hybrid daily 9: Intellect Hammer
Hybrid utility 10: Tower of Iron Will
Hybrid at-will 13: Visions of Terror (replaces Visions of Terror)

ITEMS
Hammer Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Cloak of the Walking Wounded +3, Strikebacks (heroic tier), Reflexive Wyvernscale Armor +3, Staggering Warhammer +3
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Thunder Hammer (MP) might be something to look at. -2 to saving throws vs slow, daze, immob, or stun when using a hammer or mace. Heroic Feat for fighter. 15 con.

Rapidstrike Bracers also might be a consideration, but you can't get them til lvl 15



It would be nice if the ardent could daze, slow or immobilize... but those power are really really rare for now.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)


It would be nice if the ardent could daze, slow or immobilize... but those power are really really rare for now.


lol. I think you might have missed the whole point of this build? (Slowing and dazing)

lol. I think you might have missed the whole point of this build? (Slowing and dazing)



Reread what i wrote. The ardent only slides enemies, slow and dazing effect are creating with feats&items.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

Overwhelimg Impact - If you Slow an enemy you can instead daze the enemy.

 Thunder Hammer - If your attack causes the target to become dazed, slowes, etc they take the -2 to saving throws.

Seems legit. 
Overwhelimg Impact - If you Slow an enemy you can instead daze the enemy.

 Thunder Hammer - If your attack causes the target to become dazed, slowes, etc they take the -2 to saving throws.

Seems legit. 



Surely it is legit, but my point is that if the ardent had more dazing/slowing powers he could spare buying items/feat ^^
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)


Surely it is legit, but my point is that if the ardent had more dazing/slowing powers he could spare buying items/feat ^^


The whole point is to daze with at-wills. No class can do that without enhancements... I'm not really sure what you're suggesting.
I've been thinking about a Battlemind|Ardent version of this build lately, and I'm curious as to your opinion.  



Looks good to me; you're just fulfilling a different role.  My build is a leader that can still heal and grant lots of attacks.  Yours is more focused on the movement, making it more of a pure controller.  And, yes, I think two separate movement types trigger hindering shield twice, so you do slow+daze.

Just not sure you really want three movement powers.  Demo strike + terrifying deluge is enough, plus leaves one slot open for strong utility like forward-thinking cut, revelatory slash, etc.  I feel like if all three of your powers push/slide, you're missing a chance to have something more situationally useful that doesn't.

I've been thinking about a Battlemind|Ardent version of this build lately, and I'm curious as to your opinion.  You'd lose one Ardent Surge per encounter, but the feat you would spend on Shield Proficiency becomes Hybrid Talent instead and nets you both Heavy Shields and Scale armor.  You also gain an amazing mark and Lightning Rush, which would let you punish people you've slid away if they manage to attack an ally.  I also think the Nightmare Vortex power could be quite funny with a build based around fear slides.

Also, with Stygian Adept and the Battlemind level 3 at will Visons of Terror you could theoretically push opponents (slowing them with hindering shield) and then slide them as well (dazing them with hindering shield.  And with the Augment 2 of the power, you could basically go bowling for bad guys and send them flying all over the map while also dazing them.  Does it work like that?  Would you do your push movement and then do your slide movement, allowing Hindering Shield to proc twice?

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
ArdenetBMslider, level 13
Half-Elf, Ardent|Battlemind, Stygian Adept
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Ardent Mantle (Hybrid): Mantle of Elation (Hybrid)
Hybrid Ardent: Hybrid Ardent Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Battlemind Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 21, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 21 Will: 25
HP: 94 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +14, Heal +12, Diplomacy +18, Endurance +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +5, Bluff +11, Dungeoneering +7, History +5, Intimidate +11, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +5, Stealth +4, Streetwise +11, Thievery +4, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Toughness (retrained to Battle Awareness at Level 11)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Bolstering Mantle
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Hammer) (retrained to Striking Resurgence at Level 12)
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Hindering Shield

POWERS
Dilettante: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Bull's Strength
Hybrid at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Blurred Step
Skill Power: Prescient Defense
Hybrid daily 1: Battleborn Acuity
Hybrid utility 2: Dimension Swap
Hybrid at-will 3: Visions of Terror
Hybrid daily 5: Nightmare Vortex
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Hybrid at-will 7: Lightning Rush (replaces Bull's Strength)
Hybrid daily 9: Intellect Hammer
Hybrid utility 10: Tower of Iron Will
Hybrid at-will 13: Visions of Terror (replaces Visions of Terror)

ITEMS
Hammer Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Cloak of the Walking Wounded +3, Strikebacks (heroic tier), Reflexive Wyvernscale Armor +3, Staggering Warhammer +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Staggering + Nightmare Vortex = ridiculous.  Had a player use that combo last night, and he was single handedly holding off like 5-6 giants. 
So I've been thinking about Sir Slides more and more and I've overcome my dislike for +2 proficiency weapon. I've found a way to fix it: Simply don't use a hammer til lvl 21. This will allow us to have a better hit chance, an extra feat from not taking mordenkrad prof. But it'll also cost us some dmg. Ultimately the only advantage the tiefling has is +1 hit/dmg vs bloodied and +1 hit/dmg with fear(&fire) powers. I would probably place this as an average of +1 hit/dmg overall. Lookin at it this way the tiefling becomes less appealing.

I've also been flirting with Battlemind|Ardent for crazy nightmare vortex, but I can't get it to OA when a marked creature doesn't attack us and that'd be the only reason to do it imo.

 k so back to the Ardent. As long as I'm correct in my thinking and we can just avoid hammer til 21 then here are the feats I'd take:
1. Battle Awareness
2. Versatile Expertise
4. Impending Victory
6.  Free feat
8. Free Feat
10. Free Feat
11. Versatile Master
12. Shield Prof
12. Hindering shield (Retrained from one of the 6-10 feats)
Rest is the same beyond this point


For the lvl 6-10 free feats I'd really like to find some good options. Standard sir slides uses Weapon Prof, mark of healing, and Skill Power. I really don't view the Prescient Defense utility as being worth the feat at all, but that's my opinion. Mark of healing is ok, but we might be able to find a better deal. And weapon prof is removable aw we can have a +3 weapon by default in the form of a greatsword. You could take a feat for the fullblade but 1 dmg on average isn't worth it imo. You could also wield a longsword two handed and the damage is 2-9 average instead of 1-10. That way you don't have to worry about switching weapons when you get shield at 12.
Mark of Healing is very good.  LDB rates it gold in his warlord guide for good reason.  Battle Standard + Mark of Healing is incredibly powerful.  In fact, you could argue against taking Focusing Strike at all in this build past level 6, and going with other powers (Unnerving Shove, Confusing Strike at 13, etc.)  This feat has almost made powers that grant single saves obsolete.  Focusing Strike is the exception due to its augment 2 (mass saves are still good, and we don't have ways to do this other than the battle standard + mark of healing).

Prescient Defense is better than Robust Defenses for a leader who doesn't use their immediates.  It's unglamorous, but very effective.  Google my thread on it here where I went through the math (too lazy to find it).  You have to get attacked 16 times or more in an encounter before prescient defense becomes worse than +1 to AC/Fort/Ref/Will.  It's worth about +1.5 to all defenses by my calculations (including AC), which makes it better than robust defenses and any of the epic defense feats.

You could use another weapon 1-20.  Fullblade is the obvious choice 1-10, and longsword 11-20.  Hitting more is good.
I was going with a Battlemind|Ardent Lyrander Wind-Rider with mark of storm that goes off this concept, using Brutal Barrage to slide 2 (mark of storm, rushing cleats), prone and slow, with antipathy gloves to make charging impossible.  

The advantage is all powers gain slide 2 (lightning weapon) and thus they all slow as a baseline.  I took Brash Strike as a half elf, then adaptive dilettante to qualify as a fighter (letting me go 16 cha/con, avoiding wisdom/str).   Poaches harlequin style, so it works out feat wise as,

1 mark of storms


2 hybrid talent


4 melee training


6 adaptive dilettente


8 harlequin style


10 skill power


11 versatile master


12 hindering shield


14 paragon defenses


 
Skill power is used to pick up the one that is 1/encounter minor action, ally can spend their second wind as a free action.  

 I was pondering the value of something like Windrise Ports to gain access to Warden and crippling crush, but it feels a bit cheesy.
Mark of Healing is very good.

It's still on my short list of viable feats for that level.

Prescient Defense

I saw that post a while ago and didn't fully understand the math then and still don't. We can continue this discussion there.

You could use another weapon 1-20.  Fullblade is the obvious choice 1-10, and longsword 11-20.  Hitting more is good.


Might as well use longsword 1-20.
Long sword 2 handing = 2-9: 5.5 avg
Greatsword = 1-10: 5.5 avg.
Fullblade = 1-12: 6.5 avg.
Not worth a feat for 1 dmg imo. No switching of weapon =  
I was going with a Battlemind|Ardent Lyrander Wind-Rider with mark of storm that goes off this concept, using Brutal Barrage to slide 2 (mark of storm, rushing cleats), prone and slow, with antipathy gloves to make charging impossible.  
.

 

The mark of storm idea is neat.  I looked into doing this with a bard, since you could arcane admix thunder into powers and use white lotus feats.  But their at-wills are so tame compared to something like  demoralizing strike.

I agree that Windrise Ports is cheesy.  I could have used it to mc arcane and pick up white lotus feats, but I just don't feel right using backgrounds this way.


You could use another weapon 1-20.  Fullblade is the obvious choice 1-10, and longsword 11-20.  Hitting more is good.


Might as well use longsword 1-20.
Long sword 2 handing = 2-9: 5.5 avg
Greatsword = 1-10: 5.5 avg.
Fullblade = 1-12: 6.5 avg.
Not worth a feat for 1 dmg imo. No switching of weapon =  

If using a longsword, you could consider Melee Training as a feat (since we only have 1 Eldritch Strike, mostly used on battle awareness, at heroic).  Could be retrained out at paragon.

The mark of storm idea is neat.  I looked into doing this with a bard, since you could arcane admix thunder into powers and use white lotus feats.  But their at-wills are so tame compared to something like  demoralizing strike.

I agree that Windrise Ports is cheesy.  I could have used it to mc arcane and pick up white lotus feats, but I just don't feel right using backgrounds this way.




Thanks.  I'll be playtesting the character concept in two weeks, so I'll post an optimization diary then.  The situation I'm in is unique though, two DMs for the campaign, 8 people total, 7 players.  Of the 3 defenders, 3 strikers, 1 controller, 0 leader.  And, of course, no one is leader secondary either.  So lets see if skill power let-people-spend-a-second-wind-for-free, ardent surge 1/encounter, fate exchange, iron fortress of will, and 3/encounter Lightning Rush interrupts is enough healing and damage prevention to carry through.

You could get dazing on fear powers in paragon with an assassin MC. Requires Windrise though. But it would let you daze and slow without a question.

I'm working up a Tiefling Ardent|Warlock variant. We'll see how that goes.
As promised:

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 30
Tiefling, Ardent|Warlock, Stygian Adept, Demigod
Ardent Mantle (Hybrid): Mantle of Elation (Hybrid)
Hybrid Ardent: Hybrid Ardent Fortitude
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Dark Pact (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Will
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Power Point Option
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Ki Focuses)
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Hybrid Talent: Ardent Armor Proficiency
Background: Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 26, Dex 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 28.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 43 Fort: 46 Reflex: 35 Will: 47
HP: 183 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +29, Insight +21, Diplomacy +29, Stealth +23

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Arcana +16, Bluff +26, Dungeoneering +16, Endurance +22, Heal +16, History +16, Nature +16, Perception +16, Religion +16, Streetwise +24, Thievery +16, Athletics +15

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 4: Hellfire Blood
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Shadow Initiate
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Nightmare Master
Level 12: Protective Hex
Level 14: Bolstering Mantle
Level 16: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 18: Imperious Majesty
Level 20: Nightmare Killer
Level 21: Warding Curse
Level 22: Cursed Shadow
Level 24: Superior Initiative
Level 26: Long Step
Level 28: Epic Fortitude
Level 30: Epic Will

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike
Skill Power: Prescient Defense
Hybrid daily 1: Implanted Suggestion
Hybrid utility 2: Dimension Swap
Hybrid encounter 3: Otherwind Stride
Hybrid daily 5: Tyrannical Threat
Hybrid utility 6: Life Siphon
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Forward-Thinking Cut
Hybrid daily 9: Fate Exchange
Hybrid utility 10: Tower of Iron Will
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Cloud of Flies (replaces Otherwind Stride)
Hybrid daily 15: Visage of Zhudun (replaces Tyrannical Threat)
Hybrid utility 16: Reactive Resistance
Hybrid at-will/encounter 17: Terrifying Deluge (replaces Forward-Thinking Cut)
Hybrid daily 19: Shared Vigor (replaces Implanted Suggestion)
Hybrid utility 22: Rapid Recovery
Hybrid at-will/encounter 23: Maddening Whispers (replaces Cloud of Flies)
Hybrid daily 25: Corona of Battle (replaces Fate Exchange)
Hybrid at-will/encounter 27: Terrifying Deluge (replaces Terrifying Deluge)
Hybrid daily 29: Violent Spark (replaces Shared Vigor)

ITEMS
Staggering Greatsword +6, Quicksilver Spiritmail +6, Amulet of Protection +6, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier) (2), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Ring of Mental Power (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Adding your build to the handbook, if you want, RtrnofdMax
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)