KAMEHAMEHA! -=or=- Time to fire off THE ROCKET FISTS!

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I'm not sure if this trick has been brought up yet, but i just found it and HAD to share.  So if you're all ready aware of it: I'm sorry!

But anyways, I was making a Half-Orc Monk and took Multiclass: Barbarian, for a bonus skill and daily damage bonus, and I figured I might as well check to see if there were any useful Barbarian feats.

Most of them were junk (for me) but then i found: Hurl Weapon in Primal Power which allows you to use any '1-Handed,' 'Off-Hand' weapon as a 'Heavy Thrown.'  And then the idea came to me!

But first I had to look up Monk Unarmed Strike just to make sure!  Sure enough it's listed as being a '1-Handed' weapon with the 'Off-Hand' property.  So it could then be used as a 'Heavy Thrown!'

This means a (Monk/Barbarian) or a (Monk|Barbarian) can punch at range 5/10!  Now, none of thier attacks would be able to use it, so it would only aply to ranged basic attacks, but I still think this is AWESOME!
...Yikes...most interesting way to lose a hand that I've heard all day.

This has also been posted in the errata forum (and was "acknowledged for review"), so it's possible that this perfectly amusing little trick isn't going to be valid very much longer.


The real question, though, is: if you use a ki focus, does your monk unarmed strike count as being "magic" for the purposes of returning to your..."hand" after "throwing" it? Laughing

Heh, I thought you were talking about the battlefists of the Self-Forged when I saw the title. XD Couldn't you instead just use two spiked gauntlets if you want to throw hands at people? XD
Keep in mind, since your 'weapon' doesn't have the Thrown property, it won't return, even if you find a way to enchant it (and I don't believe there is one).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Keep in mind, since your 'weapon' doesn't have the Thrown property, it won't return, even if you find a way to enchant it (and I don't believe there is one).

... I guess it'd be good for the element of surprise for a couple attacks, then. No one is gonna expect your fist to come rocketting off your arm, so I'd call that Combat Advantage. You can also just... pick up your hands after they go flying. They'd land in the square of the target, right?

But wait a second... you can't genuinely get rid of your Monk Unarmed Strike. You have it as long as you have one hand free. Throwing your monk unarmed strike doesn't really literally throw anything. You wouldn't need to have yours return to you, because you have "another" one directly following the loss of the previous one.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
...Yikes...most interesting way to lose a hand that I've heard all day.



AH! but you must remeber, Monk Unarmed Strike can be preformed with more then just your hands!  It could be done with a foot, elbow, knee or... head? [Insert Austin Power 'Head' jokes ad nauseam]


This has also been posted in the errata forum (and was "acknowledged for review"), so it's possible that this perfectly amusing little trick isn't going to be valid very much longer.




AAAWWW!  That makes me a Sad Panda! 


But I'm sure my G.M. Will allow it.  He loves that sort of thing.



The real question, though, is: if you use a ki focus, does your monk unarmed strike count as being "magic" for the purposes of returning to your..."hand" after "throwing" it? Laughing




I'd think it would... but I'm going to have to check the books on that...

Heh, I thought you were talking about the battlefists of the Self-Forged when I saw the title. XD Couldn't you instead just use two spiked gauntlets if you want to throw hands at people? XD



well... yeah, I suppose you could...  but that's just not the same as a Warforged Monk/Barbarian going Super Saiyan and firing off Rocket Fists!  And don't forget the Shoulder Cannon that fires Missiles! Though you might want to add Ranger to the mix if you are going to have that much ranged attacks...  And for Multi-Fire Rockets!  God bless Windrise Ports!  (I'm still working on adding the Blazing Sword in a smoother manner...  Plus a Halfling Teenager with Sever Emotional Problems to ride inside of it...)

P.S.: I got the Image of a guy holding Spiked Gauntlets (not wearing them) and chucking them at his enemies.  And it is still making me giggle!  Plus, good point!  Spiked gauntlets are also a one-handed melee weapon with the off hand property, but I think monk unarmed strike is better!  And funnier!

Keep in mind, since your 'weapon' doesn't have the Thrown property, it won't return, even if you find a way to enchant it (and I don't believe there is one).



As I've said higher up, I'd have to check on that, because the Barbarian feat states that "You can use [it] as a heavy thrown weapon" and part of that proporty is that if it is magical it auto returns.  But who knows?

Though, i'm not sure it matters, as Unarmed Strike is an Improvised Weapon even if you "lose" the "weapon," what stops you from just making another "improvised" attack?

Edit: AW! the last part was sniped! good show Caeric, you beat me to the...   'Punch?'   Wink

Also edited for cleaning up.
Never thought of that combo, sounds fun to do.  From an RPing standpoint though unless you were say a warforged, or someone with fake hands, I think I'd RP it that while yes, you can punch 5 squares away, I'd think it of as more of a psionic energy fist shooting out.  You know, you punch, then the psionic energy fist bursts forth and hits the enemy.  Or whatever limb you use.

Not that I'm trying to be a downer, your idea inspired me and I think this would look awesome.  Plus, if you think about it say your swinging from a rope, to a building across the way in particular a window.  Punch while swinging, energy fist smashes through the window and you jump through reading to kick but.  Oh man the ideas...damn I wanna play a monk/barb now.
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HADOUKEN!

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I'm not sure if this trick has been brought up yet, but i just found it and HAD to share.  So if you're all ready aware of it: I'm sorry!

But anyways, I was making a Half-Orc Monk and took Multiclass: Barbarian, for a bonus skill and daily damage bonus, and I figured I might as well check to see if there were any useful Barbarian feats.

Most of them were junk (for me) but then i found: Hurl Weapon in Primal Power which allows you to use any '1-Handed,' 'Off-Hand' weapon as a 'Heavy Thrown.'  And then the idea came to me!

But first I had to look up Monk Unarmed Strike just to make sure!  Sure enough it's listed as being a '1-Handed' weapon with the 'Off-Hand' property.  So it could then be used as a 'Heavy Thrown!'

This means a (Monk/Barbarian) or a (Monk|Barbarian) can punch at range 5/10!  Now, none of thier attacks would be able to use it, so it would only aply to ranged basic attacks, but I still think this is AWESOME!

Gives new meaning to "throwing a punch!" Wink
Personally I wouldn't allow monks to do that with unarmed strike just because I doubt that is what the developers intended.  However, you could do it with spiked gauntlets.  Not quite as effective but would have the same effect.
Whether or not the developers thought of every single possibility of combinations of hybriding, multiclassing, and feat taking really doesn't matter.  Why not, it's a perfectly legit use of the rules that gives the monk a ranged basic attack without having to switch weapons or anything.  That makes it helpful, not something that's insanely overpowered.  It's not like they can use their melee attacks 5 squares away or anything since its not increasing their melee reach.
I'ts actually worth pointing out that it's basically a near waste of a feat because:

1.   It attacks off of STR which is likely worse then the Monks DEX even if you are Stonefist (this is less a problem if you hybrid or plan on doing major multiclassing*)

B. (or 2)    Monks can use Slings, Daggers and Shuriken at base and for the same feat could train in a ranged weapon that is better then thier normal Monk Unarmed Strike (which could be held in the off hand, sill allowing them to use all thier powers & Unarmed Strike without having to draw thier ranged weapon)

III. (or 3... or C)   None of the Monk powers or Barbarian powers (that I am aware of) can be used at a range so it only works for Ranged Basic** and none of the bonus damage class features*** of either class work with ranged basic attacks.

Delta. (or 4... or D... or IV)    There are other ways to get ranged attacks that don't cost feats.

Furthermore. (or 5... or... SCREW IT!)   In most situation where you'd be in range to use this, you could just charge or move then charge or move and use a class power, and get both a higher attack bonus and your supporting class features/feats/items/ect.


There are, however, at least 3 minor exceptions:

One:  You have a Warlord (or other ally) who grants bonus ranged basic attacks/any basic attacks while no enemies are near you.  (But chances are they could just give it to some other ally, or you could take one of the options mentioned higher up)

Dos:  You are in a situation were you can't move next to and enemy but still have line off effect.  Such as you are slowed or they are up a cliff/on the other side of grating.  (But Monk is a class know for being HIGHLY mobile and Barbarian for Charging, and both for melee (so they will probably start thier turn next to some one), so it seems a bit unlikely to me)

And lastly:  THIS IS AWESOME!!! Yell

* I wanted the fourth link to be to Paragon Multiclassing, but it doesn't seem to me to be in the compendium... maybe even Wizards of the Coast hates that option?

** Also (wik) while they have "basic attacks" they don't have "ranged basic" or "melee basic" ...odd.

*** Was going to be a link to Barbarian's Rampage, but also (also wik) no luck
I'ts actually worth pointing out that it's basically a near waste of a feat because:

1.   It attacks off of STR which is likely worse then the Monks DEX even if you are Stonefist (this is less a problem if you hybrid or plan on doing major multiclassing*)

B. (or 2)    Monks can use Slings, Daggers and Shuriken at base and for the same feat could train in a ranged weapon that is better then thier normal Monk Unarmed Strike (which could be held in the off hand, sill allowing them to use all thier powers & Unarmed Strike without having to draw thier ranged weapon)



So you know, ranged basic atk is based off Dex, not Str, which is what you'd use your Unarmed as with this feat combo, since yes no attacks of the monk are ranged I believe, don't feel like double checking.  But big deal, still get a ranged attack.

And yes, Monks do have ranged weapons they can use.  But their fists start at d8 dam with +3 proficiency and you can take a feat to up that to d10 which is sweet damage.  Also, in regards to getting other weapons like the shuriken, or taking a proficiency feat for say a great bow, that would involve you switching weapons to make the attack unless you had quick draw.  Which you'd still have to use at least 1 feat then to get it so why not just go for broke, and make your unarmed strike a ranged attack which means you don't have to switch weapons.  You can still attack with a weapon in your main hand, leave your off hand free, and if need be make a ranged attack no problem.

Sorry, just wanted to point that out.
Not all ranged attacks are based off of Dex.  In particular the attack in question is classified as 'Heavy Thrown' which means Str and not Dex is the base.
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So you know, ranged basic atk is based off Dex, not Str, which is what you'd use your Unarmed as with this feat combo, since yes no attacks of the monk are ranged I believe, don't feel like double checking.  But big deal, still get a ranged attack.

And yes, Monks do have ranged weapons they can use.  But their fists start at d8 dam with +3 proficiency and you can take a feat to up that to d10 which is sweet damage.  Also, in regards to getting other weapons like the shuriken, or taking a proficiency feat for say a great bow, that would involve you switching weapons to make the attack unless you had quick draw.  Which you'd still have to use at least 1 feat then to get it so why not just go for broke, and make your unarmed strike a ranged attack which means you don't have to switch weapons.  You can still attack with a weapon in your main hand, leave your off hand free, and if need be make a ranged attack no problem.

Sorry, just wanted to point that out.



No need to apologize, polite discusion is a great way to grow intellectually.  Besides, I probably should explain what I mean in more detail anyways.

Thank you Harsgault for answering the first part of this.

As for the second, no, you don't need Quick Draw (Though it might help.)  You hold the ranged weapon in one hand leaving the other free.  If you want to make a ranged attack you draw an arrow/bolt and fire.  If you want a melee weapon power (for monk, that mean melee basic) you use Unarmed Strike with your free hand, getting an enhancement bonus from a Ki Focus.  If you want to make a class power, just use a Ki Focus.  No changing needed.

You only need Quick Draw if you want to use some kind of melee weapon AND a ranged weapon that takes ammo.  Which (I think) probably means one of a few things:

1.) Crushing Tempest Style which can be achived with Unarmed Strike via a Belt of the Brawler.

2.) Pointed Step Style then yes, you'd need Quick Draw.

3.) A weapon enchant with a cool property you want, but some of those can be put on a Spiked Gauntlet or Spiked Shield neither of which takes up your hand slot.  You also don't need to be proficient in thier use because that only matters for: A.) Proficiency Bonus vs. AC and that only is important for melee basic which could be preformed with Unarmed Strike, B.) Using it as an Implement for you Implement power, at which point, either Ki Focus ftw, or, if the weapon must be used to preform the attack to benifit from it's proporty, well then, you got me!

or 4.) a Feat that is weapon specific (see 3)


Additionally, Shuriken and Daggers might only be a d4, but are still fine ranged weapons, and fire off of DEX so they probably would be more likely to hit then a Thrown Fist.

But the main point (for me at least) is, why do you even need to make ranged basic attacks?  Warlords? (and some other classes)  Chances are, even if you do take Hurl Weapon, someone else on the team probably has a better Ranged Basic then you do.  In all fainess...  (BUT: don't get me wrong!  I love making monk unarmed ranged!  It's awesome!  And feel right!)

Side Note:  As for Improved Monk Unarmed Strike I just don't see it being worth it for Monks, but ONLY because monks don't have weapon/[w] powers.  A Multiclass or Hybrid Monk SURE!  But I don't see a plain Monk getting much out of it...  (although, maybe I just don't make as many melee/ranged basic attacks as everyone else when I play...)

Also! (not wik) if I'm wrong or missed something, let me know! Smile

Also, also! (maybe wik) thank you for replying!  THANK YOU ALL for replying! Smile


edit: I seemed to have had random HTML spans in my post (no idea how or why they got there) that was messing up my post layout really badly.  Should be fixed now!
I just want to say that using hurl weapon on an unarmed strike and calling it a hadouken is awesome, even if impractical.  it's been brought up that spiked gauntles can use the same trick, but i'd like to point out that if you take a warforged, make the spiked gauntlets attached (or embedded, i'm pretty sure you could do either) and make artificer your base class (instead of monk) you get a pretty good replication of the Rocketto Punch!  especially since "a mundane weapon returns to the artificer like a magic thrown weapon does."  Plus, it's practical; artificer weapon powers are mostly, if not all, "Melee or Ranged weapon."

of course, that would probably be a discussion for the leader board.
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Think about this guy as a ranger|monk/barbarian/avalanche hurler...you'd be twin striking at range with +3/d12 weapons!
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