Jumping down

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If a player wants to jump down from a height, does it take up any squares of movement?  Can they continue moving after they jump down?  Since they take fall damage, do they also end up prone?  How high would they have to jump from to become prone when landing?  Does it have to do with how much damage they take?
If a player wants to jump down from a height, does it take up any squares of movement?  Can they continue moving after they jump down?  Since they take fall damage, do they also end up prone?  How high would they have to jump from to become prone when landing?  Does it have to do with how much damage they take?



1. No, falling just kind of happens.
2. In theory, unless they end up prone and thus have to take a move action to stand up.
3. Usually.  There are a handful of feats and magic items that prevent this.
4. If they take any damage from the fall, they end up prone.  Since falling damage is 1d10 per 10 feet, the only guaranteed way to not be prone from a fall is to fall less than 10 feet.
5. See 4.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
1. Jumping down consumes your entire move action.
2. No, unless they used feather fall or teleport
3.  Acrobatics or spells listed above


PHB pg. 181

Reduce Falling Damage (Trained Only)

If you fall or jump down from a height, you can make an Acrobatics check to reduce the amount of falling damage you take.
Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.
Damage Reduced: Make an Acrobatics check, and reduce the amount of falling damage you take by one-half your check result (round down).


 


Example: The floor beneath Kora swings open over a pit, and she makes an Acrobatics check to reduce the falling damage. The pit is 40 feet deep, resulting in 24
points of damage (from a roll of 4d10). Her Acrobatics check result is 21, which reduces the damage by 10.  She takes 14 points of damage from the fall.


PHB pg. 284

FALLING
Falling Damage: You take 1d10 damage for each 10 feet you fall.
Fast Alternative: If you fall more than 50 feet, take 25 damage per 50 feet, plus 1d10 per 10 extra feet.
Prone: You fall prone when you land, unless you take no damage from the fall.

Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.

Which makes you wonder why a player would ever jump down instead of just let themselves fall.  

Does anyone else see Diggle's post trailing down the screen in a long stream of text?  Maybe I need to go to sleep.

Anyway, re Fitz's remark, I think that it takes a move action to step off the edge anyway.  The free action is probably meant for when a pit suddenly opens beneath you.  You would have already spent a move to step onto the trap, it would be rough (and weird) to charge you another move to fall with grace.
Does anyone else see Diggle's post trailing down the screen in a long stream of text?  Maybe I need to go to sleep..



Yeah, I see it too. Nice to know im not crazy or that my computer is going haywire.
Does anyone else see Diggle's post trailing down the screen in a long stream of text?  Maybe I need to go to sleep..



Yeah, I see it too. Nice to know im not crazy or that my computer is going haywire.



Since these simplistic forums dont allow text highlight color, I threw that into word, highlighted then pasted here.  I'm guessing word added a bunch of stuff to the html.  I cleaned up so you wont go crazy
Anyway, re Fitz's remark, I think that it takes a move action to step off the edge anyway.  The free action is probably meant for when a pit suddenly opens beneath you.  You would have already spent a move to step onto the trap, it would be rough (and weird) to charge you another move to fall with grace.

In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.

Those weird copy/paste errors happen with some browsers (Chrome, and I believe Safari and/or Opera)

Blame the forums for that. 
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In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.


Not quite sure what you're getting at here... which case do you mean?
In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.


Not quite sure what you're getting at here... which case do you mean?



So, is jumping down part of a move action or does it consume an entire move action?

If I attack a guy (standard action), and then use a run (move action) to run three squares and jump off clearing 2 squares before starting to fall down to the ground (jumping horizontally is part of a move action) of a 10 foot ledge am I allowed to attempt to reduce the fall damage?

Question 2: If I am at the top of a 15 foot ladder and choose to let go of it and fall 10 feet, is it a move action or a free action to prevent fall damage?  What happens if there is an ally in the space below me at the bottom?  What happens if there is an enemy in the space below me at the bottom?
I think jumping down would be considered just like any other jump, so it would be part of the move action in your first example.

In your second question, I'd say it was a free action to let go of the ladder and fall (call it dropping prone if you like), but a move action to jump safely.

The questions about creatures in the way are outside the rules.  I would say that if there is an ally, he could try to catch you by aiding another on your Acrobatics check.  If it is an enemy and you are trying to hit him, call it an improvised weapon attack.  I'd probably give you the charge bonus, myself.

If I attack a guy (standard action), and then use a run (move action) to run three squares and jump off clearing 2 squares before starting to fall down to the ground (jumping horizontally is part of a move action) of a 10 foot ledge am I allowed to attempt to reduce the fall damage?

Question 2: If I am at the top of a 15 foot ladder and choose to let go of it and fall 10 feet, is it a move action or a free action to prevent fall damage?  What happens if there is an ally in the space below me at the bottom?  What happens if there is an enemy in the space below me at the bottom?



(AFMB)
Though Questions brother ! Let's dive...

1. You still fall 10 feet and follow the rules on Fall. Wether you fall or Jump Horizontally, you take damage and get to reduce them only if trained in Acrobatic. It would be 1d10 IIRC. You never Jumped down vertically.

2. Free Action for dropping held item, but you drop or fall instead of the held object falling. The action remains essentially the same. 2d10 and you'd reduce them if trained in Acrobatic. You never Jumped down. If there is an ally and you drop Prone, you're ok. If there is an enemy, you would most likely fall in a square next to him i'd guess, as if he'd pushed you away, since you couldn't enter in his space, unless he'd be Helpless.

 I think the Jump Down Reduce Damage part should really have been as Part of a Move Action to avoid any confusions and not a Move Action Jump as the wording used. You don't take a Move Action solely to reduce damage by making a Jump Down. It only is effective as long as you Jump, akin to Flying creature getting Prone Flying their Speed til they crash, i'd treat a Jumping down as this calculating the Vertical movement square you're Jumping til you reach the limit of you're movement, then you Fall. That distance is what i think they refer to Move Action Jump. But i am away from my books so i am not sure anything would interfere.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I don't know if i agree with dropping off of a ladder as being a free action.  I see your logic but to me he is making a tactical decision to move by dropping down and i would count that as part of his move action taking some of his movement to do.  He would still get the accrobatics check to reduce dammage however.

Now if there was an ally below him I would say the ally was not hit unless he decided to try and catch you and i would treat it as catching a falling creature as layed out in the rules.   If there was an enemy there then i would allow an acrobatic vs reflex attack.  If you hit then i would calculate the falling damage and divide it between the 2 of you, each takeing half dammage.  I would then reduce your component of the damage by 1/2 the acrobatics check.  It's quite possable for the enemy to break your fall without you taking damage.  If you do really well it would be like you rolling up into a ball, ramming into him and then bouncing off to land baside him, which would have the added bennifit of looking really cool.  After the attack is resolved you would be prone, or not, in a space adjacent to him.

I would also condicer allowing you to do a falling charge attack, something we all like to call "death from above"
I don't know if i agree with dropping off of a ladder as being a free action.  I see your logic but to me he is making a tactical decision to move by dropping down and i would count that as part of his move action taking some of his movement to do.  He would still get the accrobatics check to reduce dammage however.


I'd say the precedents are pretty convincing since dropping prone, releasing a held item, and falling through a trap door are all specified as free actions.  Any of these woud be a reasonable model for letting go of a ladder and falling.


Now if there was an ally below him I would say the ally was not hit unless he decided to try and catch you and i would treat it as catching a falling creature as layed out in the rules.  


Catching a falling creature is actually in the rules?

Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.

Which makes you wonder why a player would ever jump down instead of just let themselves fall.  




You don't jump down.  Athletics is for jumping up and forward.  Acrobatics is when "jump" down. It reduces the damage from a fall
I thought off the top of my head, that there were Athletic Jump horizontally and Vertically ? Jumping Down would be a Jumping vertically but going down instead of going up no ? It would be an Acrobatic Move to Jump down then ?

Also you don't catch a falling creature on your Turn, a creature on it's turn falls in your space. Different scenario totally.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It makes sense to me to treat the squares that you move as part of your movement, so if you jump down 10 feet that's 2 squares. If you avoid all the damage with your acrobatics check then you can continue moving. As in you did a roll after your drop.

Parcour...ists? (I don't know what you'd call a practitioner of parcour) Free-runners use the jump down technique often!

As to the free action when you fall, I think that usually falling is unintentional and so would happen in the middle of some other movement, maybe not even on your turn. That's why it needs to be a free action.

cheers,
Meshon
In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.


Not quite sure what you're getting at here... which case do you mean?

If you jump, it is part of a move action.  Jump down says it is a move action.

If it is a move action (which the rules seem to say it is), it is the only thing you do with that action.  If that is the case, then no player would ever jump down when they can just fall instead, since the result is identical.

If it isn't a move action, then it's no more the only thing you can do than jumping is the only thing you can do with a single move action.  It's part of a move action instead of a move action.  And to be honest, there still isn't any reason for a player to do it instead of falling if it counts against movement.
In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.


Not quite sure what you're getting at here... which case do you mean?

If you jump, it is part of a move action.  Jump down says it is a move action.

If it is a move action (which the rules seem to say it is), it is the only thing you do with that action.  If that is the case, then no player would ever jump down when they can just fall instead, since the result is identical.

If it isn't a move action, then it's no more the only thing you can do than jumping is the only thing you can do with a single move action.  It's part of a move action instead of a move action.  And to be honest, there still isn't any reason for a player to do it instead of falling if it counts against movement.



True enough.  Weird, but true.

Occured to me that a possible house-rule might be that jumping down is part of a move action, counts against movement ... but doesn't knock you prone if you take damage.  You don't have to worry to much about insane jumps down without being knocked prone because the player will start to fall if he runs out of movement, limiting jump down to 30ft for most characters.


Occured to me that a possible house-rule might be that jumping down is part of a move action, counts against movement ... but doesn't knock you prone if you take damage.  You don't have to worry to much about insane jumps down without being knocked prone because the player will start to fall if he runs out of movement, limiting jump down to 30ft for most characters.


I like it. It encourages exciting combat and that should usually give way to other considerations! I might consider reigning it in a little by saying that if you take damage your movement ends, but without the prone penalty as long as you have movement left.

cheers,
Meshon


If you jump, it is part of a move action.  Jump down says it is a move action.

If it is a move action (which the rules seem to say it is), it is the only thing you do with that action.  If that is the case, then no player would ever jump down when they can just fall instead, since the result is identical.

If it isn't a move action, then it's no more the only thing you can do than jumping is the only thing you can do with a single move action.  It's part of a move action instead of a move action.  And to be honest, there still isn't any reason for a player to do it instead of falling if it counts against movement.


Fair enough.  I would personally interpret the action for jumping down as part of a move action, specifically the same part as jumping.  I suspect that RAI for "jumping down" is a downward jump.

I think that's basically what your suggested houserule is getting at too, though I don't have any problem with the falling prone part if you land hard enough to take damage.  (And a character could jump down 60 ft if he double moved... arguably 80 feet if he ran and jumped.) 

But you're right that the RAW doesn't precisely say that, it instead indicates that there is a special "jump down" action which is a move action in itself.  Of course, we have no information anyway about this special action, we only have rules for is falling and jumping.  So even if a player wanted to take a move action to jump down, we wouldn't know how to adjudicate it. 
I'd say the precedents are pretty convincing since dropping prone, releasing a held item, and falling through a trap door are all specified as free actions.  Any of these woud be a reasonable model for letting go of a ladder and falling.



Actually the PHB says that dropping prone takes a minor action.  I had thought it was a free action, and was going to abuse 2 PHB3 feats/skill powers? (one that lets you stand prone as a minor, and that lets you shift 1 for free when standing up) to be able to have a minor action shift 1 ability, but then I looked up in the PHB and was amazed that dropping prone takes a minor action, foiling my plan.
In which case jumping down wouldn't be the only thing you could do any more than jumping is all you can do.


Not quite sure what you're getting at here... which case do you mean?

If you jump, it is part of a move action.  Jump down says it is a move action.

If it is a move action (which the rules seem to say it is), it is the only thing you do with that action.  If that is the case, then no player would ever jump down when they can just fall instead, since the result is identical.

If it isn't a move action, then it's no more the only thing you can do than jumping is the only thing you can do with a single move action.  It's part of a move action instead of a move action.  And to be honest, there still isn't any reason for a player to do it instead of falling if it counts against movement.



Yeah. Weird euh ? Well, if one of your PC is over a ledge of 15 feet deep pit and says i Jump down, what, or how are you supposed to handle it ? Just reaching the first square in the emptyness is a Move Action. So he says i Jump Down. Good, how do you calculate how may squares he can Jump then ? Wether the 3 squares he falls them of Jump them isn't revelant if he is trained in Acrobatic. He will be eligible to reduce the damage. But if the distanced Jumped is enought to be still considered a Jump and not a Fall, which would happen when he'd run out of Movement square and be still in the air, then he'd start Falling. He used his Movement entirely for Jumping then. But on a counterpart, If the Pit was only 10 feet and cleared the distance (2 squares), down at the bottom, he;d still have 4 square of Movement left if he had a Speed of 6 let's say.

Why Would he just not Fallen first ? Because he had to Jump to get off the ledge, using a Move Action. That's how i can see a difference where it would matter. It's if you Jump Down shorter enought to be not  in a Fall.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter


Actually the PHB says that dropping prone takes a minor action.  I had thought it was a free action, and was going to abuse 2 PHB3 feats/skill powers? (one that lets you stand prone as a minor, and that lets you shift 1 for free when standing up) to be able to have a minor action shift 1 ability, but then I looked up in the PHB and was amazed that dropping prone takes a minor action, foiling my plan.


Well, there you go.  I guess there's indeed a case for falling off a ladder to be a minor action.
I thought off the top of my head, that there were Athletic Jump horizontally and Vertically ? Jumping Down would be a Jumping vertically but going down instead of going up no ? It would be an Acrobatic Move to Jump down then ?

Also you don't catch a falling creature on your Turn, a creature on it's turn falls in your space. Different scenario totally.



you could be right.  I was also thinking off the top of my head.  I don't have access to the rules right now so I will have to dig into it a bit deeper
The jumping/falling rules under acrobatics annoy me to no end.  First, making jumping down a move action by itself, and second making jumping down to reduce damage a trained only use.  Serioulsy, D&D characters should be able to do anything *I* can do.  And I can jump off a 10' drop without hurting myself or landing prone.  (And I'm definitely not trained in acrobatics). 

What they really should have done is require acrobatics training for reducing *falling* damage, while anybody could attempt to reduce *jumping down* damage.  The whole move action bit should be removed entirely.  Also, some explanation on what kind of movement falling is would be nice.  Is it free, or does it take some of your movement?  Is it forced movement, or does it provoke OA's on the way down? 

What they really should have done is require acrobatics training for reducing *falling* damage, while anybody could attempt to reduce *jumping down* damage.


That's a great idea.
What happens if a player makes a horizontal jump with a running start across a chasm (10 feet across, 100 feet deep), but the opposite ledge is 10 feet below the ledge he is jumping from?  Is he not allowed to make an acrobatics check to reduce his damage without using an additional move action?  is he not allowed to continue moving after landing since he had to use a move action within his move action to prevent damage?  Really kind of limits the awesome sorts of 3-d jumps.

If you want to avoid houserules, just jump straight across, then fall the 10' down.  Since only jumping down takes a move action, you can reduce the 10' fall damage as a free action. 

IMHO the movement rules should encourage cool cinematic leaps and jumps so I interpret and/or houserule things a bit to encourage awesomness.
I really think the move action thing was not intentional.  It doesn't make sense from any perspective, and it is close enough to "part of a move action" to be an easy mistake.
The way I see it, a move action is the type of action you need to take to attemp to reduce falling damage.  That's what the rule seems to suggest to me.  If you had some sort of magic item which prevented you from taking falling damage, you wouldn't need to attempt to reduce fall damage, and, as such, wouldn't need to use the move action.
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@TheOUCrew...  You're still in the 3.5 system where you can use a jump check to negate some damage when you purposefully jump down... in 4E you'd totally have acrobatics trained.



Anyway....   They made it so one skill effected damage taken from falling and jumping down, instead of two skills so a skillful character couldn't fall as far without taking damage(and then they added a feat to do it... lol)  Jumping down takes an action because you're doing it, Falling doesn't take an action because you don't normally fling yourself off cliffs(and if you tried to metagame and claim to "fall off cliffs" in order to get the free action acrobatics I'd kill your character(later... but it would come)) 

Jumping off an edge: move action...
falling due to pit or forced movement off edge: free action....

Doing things on purpose costs actions.
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Bilop, the point is that jumping off an edge would already be a move action, since you are moving.  But it would be more reasonable if it were part of a move action, just like jumping itself.  As it is now, you should never use the "jump down" action because it saves an action to simply walk (or jump) off the edge and let yourself fall. 

(And if you tried to use the "jump down" action, the DM would have to make up rules for it on the spot.  Like, how close to the edge do you have to be to jump down?  Do you have to fall straight down, or could you try to include some horizontal movement? )
In my own (somewhat limited) real-world experience of jumping down, it is definitely part of a move action. Not that I habitually act in 6-second units, but generally you don't have to take much time to get down off of a height. It takes slightly longer than just running off an edge and hoping for the best, but really not much, and practice (meaning trained in Acrobatics) makes the transition down quite fluid. To be fair I don't think I've ever quite done ten feet, but these folks are heroes! Of course, now that I think about it, to fall down a longer distance you would probably need to use the wall (like the 1E monk) to slow your descent, in which case a whole move action might be appropriate.

I'm still on the fence about the prone effect at the end of the jump/fall if you take damage. I think I would go with using jump down as part of a move action, counting the squares you move as part of your movement and, if you don't use up all of your movement, keeping your feet under you, whether you take damage or not.

How about requiring an Acrobatics check with a DC equal to the pre-reduction damage you would take?

I think I will test out these ideas next game I have. Now I just have to figure out how to convince all my players that their characters need to be jumping off of stuff...

cheers,
Meshon

I'd like to see people with more options.. without requiring trained acrobatics.

I'm thinking:
Jump Down: Part of a Move Action
* Ends your movement - Jumping down ends your movement directly below the ledge you jumped down from.
* Take Falling Damage - Take falling damage as normal, and those trained in Acrobatics may reduce the damage.
* Do not fall prone - Regardless of damage taken, you do not fall prone when you jump down.

This allows anyone to get down from a ledge, but it will end their movement, but not knock them prone.  If you are trained in acrobatics though you might go for the riskier and either not jump down, just attempt to reduce the damage (if you reduce it all, you can keep moving).  Or Jump from the ledge, not having to end their movement at the base of the ledge..  But again if they can't reduce all the damage they are prone.  Those that aren't trained are able to do this, and basically since they're doing it of their own free will they are able to just take the damage without falling prone.  This allows risk/reward thoughts, as to do I want to end my movement below and then take whatever action.  Or do I want to try for the acrobatics check (assuming trained), and possibly use more movement.  Or just jump off the ledge, but spend another action to get myself off the ground.

I don't like to call falling distance as part of movement, because characters can fall 100 squares a turn, so your falling speed is a significant amount faster than your movement speed.  So in estimate a (speed 5) person would have to fall ~10 squares (5d10 damage), to use up 1 movement.

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Re: jumping down versus falling, I'd rule that jumping down reduces the distance by 1 square (as you use that move action to lower yourself over the edge and carefully drop down).

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.


Now if there was an ally below him I would say the ally was not hit unless he decided to try and catch you and i would treat it as catching a falling creature as layed out in the rules.  


Catching a falling creature is actually in the rules?



You know now that i look for the rule I can't find it.  There is one for catching yourself if you fall but not catching others.  I could have sworn there was a rule that if a person falls past you, you can make a strength check to catch them.  Now that i think more i beleive that was a 3.5E rule not 4E.  This is the problem with DM'ing a 4E campaign while simutaniously plaing in a 3.5 campaign.

Still i would probably allow a person to try the catch in 4E as an immediate action if it ever came up.
Anyway....   They made it so one skill effected damage taken from falling and jumping down, instead of two skills so a skillful character couldn't fall as far without taking damage(and then they added a feat to do it... lol)  Jumping down takes an action because you're doing it, Falling doesn't take an action because you don't normally fling yourself off cliffs(and if you tried to metagame and claim to "fall off cliffs" in order to get the free action acrobatics I'd kill your character(later... but it would come)) 

Jumping off an edge: move action...
falling due to pit or forced movement off edge: free action....

Doing things on purpose costs actions.



The problem with going by the 'jumping down takes a move action' rule is that it kills cinematic movement.  If the character doesn't start adjacent to the edge, they have to first use a move action to get to the edge, stop, then blow an entire second move action to jump down.  This prevents any cool running to the edge, leaping off and stabbing the guy at the bottom moves.  Most players are going to do the smart tactical thing and not waste extra actions, so they will just do something boring like attacking with a ranged weapon from the top of the edge, then carefully climbing down next round.  As a DM I like to encourage cool moves that create awesome imagery.  The jumping down as a move action doesn't make a lot of sense, and interferes with creating fun encounters, so I disregard it.  Especially since by RAW you can make flat jumps and then fall for free.  This is one case where rules lawyering to get around the move action requirement is actually a good thing IMHO. 

This prevents any cool running to the edge, leaping off and stabbing the guy at the bottom moves.

Sounds like an invitation to go *splat* to me. 

Would you allow a PC to charge off of ledge (ie move and attack from the air) and still reduce damage with acrobatics?  Just curious.