Brutal with Reroll

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Luckbender gloves with a Brutal 1 weapon, what happens?

In my opinion specific beats general and the wording in Luckbender gloves beats out brutal 1. Is this correct assumption?

If this is corrent, does this mean any time a power is used to reroll and it says use the second result or the new roll "even if it is lower", does this replace brutal 1?

Thanks

I don't think it's a case of specific beats general at all. Luckbender Gloves let you reroll a die you don't like, but it's still a [W] roll. After getting to roll the [W] again it comes up as a 1, now the brutal property kicks in letting you reroll again. The new roll simply isn't even finalized until after brutal has been determined.
But doesn't Luckbenders state to take the second roll even if its lower? And from all I read on brutal, it would happen at the same time as luckbenders would occur.

If you roll a number that is equal to the brutal rating and less, reroll that die until the number appears that is above the brutal rating. If would be the same as the free action in luckbenders. The timing would be after the roll of the dmg dice but before dmg is declared for both situations.

The specifc wording in luckbenders is to take the second dice roll even if it is lower I see as a final die roll unless there is some stipulation in the rules that says other wise which is why I asked. Hence the original damage is rolled, brutal kicks in, a result now appears to no longer effect brutal clause of the weapon, and then luckbenders or similar power is used stating the next roll is the final roll.

A situation I see that reinforces this in regards to luckbenders where 1 dice vs 1[w] is the mordenkrad (Brutal 1, 2d6). If I rolled a 1 and a 2. I can reroll the 1 automatically for the brutal 1. But if it shows a 2 and a 2 on the weapon roll, and I choose luckbenders, it says to reroll one dice keeping that roll even if it is lower. Not the weapon, but for most weapons it is one dice, but a single dice on a mordenkrad isn't 1[w] and then it says take the roll even if it is lower.

I could not find this listed anywhere on here for brutal weapons with re roll abilities for damage and would love to see how this is actually suppose to be.

I thought I saw it mentioned on the forums previously but searching all the forums today and I couldn't find it.

The only argument I have seen from my group is that the word result is used however the definition I saw doesn't say that brutal rerolls until the result of the roll is above the brutal rating.

Yes this is being nitpicky, but I am trying to see if this is actually the case as how I see it because I have an Avenger using this with another avenger power with a mordenkrad that is abusing this heavily with rerolls on dmg, not to mention his capability to roll 2 d20 on attacks.
Think of ti this way: with the brutal property you cannot have a die value lower than its brutal rating.  So a brutal 1 weapon, if you are given a reroll, is still a brutal 1 weapon.  So if you rolled two dice and got a 2, 2 and used your reroll to get a 1,1 you would still reroll those dice because it's a brutal 1 weapon.

The wording saying you have to take the second result even if it's lower is meant to tell you that you don't get to choose which dice rolls you keep, not lock ytou out of your brutal property.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
So brutal 1 or brutal 2 says you can't ever have a result be equal or lower then the brutal rating or is that RAI vs RAW? From my understand it is a reroll ability in and of itself.

If it is such, why doesn't the rules say so. The way brutal is worded is that it is a general rule to a weapon property that occurs after the weapon dmg is rolled. But so does the luckbenders glove rerolling 1 dice keepin the second result even if it is lower. However luckbenders is very specific. Also luckbenders says 1 dmg dice and not weapon dmg or all dmg.

I havn't seen any wording on the rules of the timing on either other then they both occur after the roll of the dice and prior to announcing the result. The only thing I see here atm is brutal is general term and is applied to a weapon property and luckbenders is specific to a single dice roll. Is there any ruling on this previously or has this been brought up before?

As a player I can see the wanting to keep brutal on every roll but it directly contradicts luckbenders in that is says to keep the second dice roll.

"The wording saying you have to take the second result even if it's lower is meant to tell you that you don't get to choose which dice rolls you keep, not lock ytou out of your brutal property."

This I understand it limits the choice but is also directly says you have to keep the second dice roll, not the third or fourth if brutal kicks in. 

Again if this is wrong I have no issues with it but I am looking for a rules reason in timing or RAW or something other then RAI.
Brutal:  A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.

Luckbender:  Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power after you make a damage roll for a melee weapon attack. Reroll one damage die, using the second result even if it’s lower.

The way I would play this is:

1.  Roll damage re-rolling as allowed per Brutal.

2.  Decide the final value on one die was too low and re-roll using Luckbender.  Use Brutal's re-roll as in (1).

I think this is the way it should work.
I am currently leaning to that luckbenders says reroll 1 die and not saying weapon dmg makes this interesting especially if you use a mordenkrad and are capable of using backstab or other dmg additions. Its not the dmg roll or the weapon dmg but 1 dice. Couldn't this be seen as a seperate power all together that would cause the dmg change?
I guess I just need the explanation on the timing cause I am not seeing it.

Mordenkrad 2d6 brutal 1. I also for this example can use assasing shroud.

I roll a result of a 3 and a 1 for weapon dmg and a 1,4,6 for the assasing shroud. I then re roll that 1 on the mordenkrad dmg and get another result of that dice roll as a 1. I roll that dice again and get a result on the die of a 2. I don't like that value so I luckbenders. I roll a result on the die of a 1. Now, what kicks in? Luckbenders tell me it is the final roll. Brutal says to re roll again. This is where I saw specific beats generality and said this to my group who was upset. However, I told them I would look here and get confirmation either way.
I guess I just need the explanation on the timing cause I am not seeing it.

Mordenkrad 2d6 brutal 1. I also for this example can use assasing shroud.

I roll a result of a 3 and a 1 for weapon dmg and a 1,4,6 for the assasing shroud. I then re roll that 1 on the mordenkrad dmg and get another result of that dice roll as a 1. I roll that dice again and get a result on the die of a 2. I don't like that value so I luckbenders. I roll a result on the die of a 1. Now, what kicks in? Luckbenders tell me it is the final roll. Brutal says to re roll again. This is where I saw specific beats generality and said this to my group who was upset. However, I told them I would look here and get confirmation either way.



I;d say you re-roll that 1.

Why?

Because Brutal lets you re-roll the result of the roll.  I don't think it matters if that roll is the orginal, the result of a Brutal re-roll, or the result of any other power that grants a re-roll.

Brutal 1 is supposed to have a minimum result of 2 on each die.  "Luckbender" should not change that fact.
Isn't part of luckbenders is the gamble that is may be lower and taking that chance as it says use the second roll even if it is lower? I mean is there a timing thing I am missing.

Again, I can see the RAI but also see it contradicts the RAW. I play my game fully RAW that way there is no favoritism seen in play style when i said RAI with one person and not another.

Brutal 1 is supposed to have a minimum result of 2 on each die.  "Luckbender" should not change that fact.



Why not rule that Brutal 1 means if you roll a 1, the minimum of the dice is 2 and make it a 2 instead of rerolling? There is even a power that says that else where.

TO me brutal is a reroll ability as it says to re roll the dice. I have no issues with it as such. I only see the difference as RAI and RAW and since I only play RAW, I am looking for a hard line proof that the timing is the issue or there is something that says brutal superseeds other rerolls then the definition of brutal.
I also would like to state that as a player I would be with my group on this, but I can't let myself fall in that trap cause if another RAI vs RAW pops up next week, and I don't see the RAI side and rule RAW I don't get the heat from them...

Brutal 1 is supposed to have a minimum result of 2 on each die.  "Luckbender" should not change that fact.



Why not rule that Brutal 1 means if you roll a 1, the minimum of the dice is 2 and make it a 2 instead of rerolling? There is even a power that says that else where.

TO me brutal is a reroll ability as it says to re roll the dice. I have no issues with it as such. I only see the difference as RAI and RAW and since I only play RAW, I am looking for a hard line proof that the timing is the issue or there is something that says brutal superseeds other rerolls then the definition of brutal.



You are not going to find and hard and fast rule for this because it is subject to interpretation.

Either way you still take a chance of getting a lower roll (assuming you roll you are re-rolling is other than the minimum possible value).

It's really not very fair to the player if you make the re-roll be possibly worse than normally  possible.

There is rules support either way.  The closest thing to a definitive answer will be to ask CustServ as this is most certainly subject to interpretation.

How do I submit this to CustServ?

I can see a correction to the wording of brutal or luckbenders fixing this easily. But as it is written I see it as I presented it. But I don't think it was how it was intended. But I RAW with all the evidence I have before me until I am corrected. And this I would like to see corrected but until then I was just hoping to quickly get the answer here.

How do I submit this to CustServ?





Click here:

wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Thank You.

Am I completely off base with this going fully RAW? As in can anyone see this side of RAW or am I the only one?
I can see a correction to the wording of brutal or luckbenders fixing this easily. But as it is written I see it as I presented it. But I don't think it was how it was intended. But I RAW with all the evidence I have before me until I am corrected. And this I would like to see corrected but until then I was just hoping to quickly get the answer here.

I don't think a correction is at all necessary, just because you disagree with the reasoned explanations of others does not make it confusing. Just because you are rerolling a damage dice doesn't mean that damage dice suddenly loses its property of being a [W] dice for a brutal weapon. The two work perfectly fine together and it just seems like you are trying to read a RAW conflict where there is none. There's no language to indicate Luckbender should somehow override brutal.

If you have a Craghammer, which is Brutal 2, and your damage roll is a 4 one would think that a good opportunity to use Luckbender Gloves because you just rolled very low damage for the weapon. Your reroll is a 1, but that's not a valid roll for a Craghammer because you can not have weapon damage of 1 or 2 with a brutal 2 weapon so you reroll, the result is a 3. Well that sure sucks, you went from a poor damage roll to the minimum damage roll but Luckbender Gloves say you're stuck with that new damage roll, that's the tough luck.

I don't see how it's not a violation of RAW to essentially force an illegal roll, i.e. a Brutal Weapon doing less than its minimum damage. I can't imagine that's in line with RAI either, it's essentially screwing over a player by taking away their weapon property when there's no reason for it as well as essentially making a relatively weak item even worse. It's not like the Luckbender Gloves are that powerful, rerolling one dice in heroic tier is 11 damage at most added to a die, and usually a lot less.

I have a mordenkrad Paladin. I love him and I agree that how you put it is how it should be. And I would be arguing for it the same way as my group and how you put it.

However, as the DM of the group and reading that luckbenders is to take the second dice result even if it is lower to me says bluntly specific over general. If brutal stated it has a property that weapon dmg can never be at or below the brutal number and to do "this" action to correct it, then fine. I agree with that is how it is understood but its not how it was written.

I guess I am the only one seeing it as such... I did submit the CSR ticket. I hope they give a ruling on this and maybe clarify this in an erratta.

This would be a perfect fix IMO.

Now:
Brutal: 
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon.  When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value  equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the  die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then  use the new value.

Should be corrected to:
Brutal: 
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than its brutal rating.  When rolling the weapon’s damage and before the damage result is declared, reroll any die that displays a value  equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the  die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then  use the new value.
I don't see much of a practical difference between the two. I see that you put in the 'before the damage result is declared', however, I don't see that playing out any differently than the current rule. If you are still using powers and abilities to change the result of a damage roll then it's certainly not final yet because if it were the final damage someone would be recalculating their current HP.

The key point to understanding is, I think, that regardless of whether you are allowed to reroll a particular die or not that die is still the [W] die, which Brutal states you reroll until it exceeds the Brutal value. You're still in the process of rolling the weapon's damage all along, you just have a power that lets you reroll that weapon damage but I don't see that somehow making it not weapon damage after the reroll, that's why it's called a reroll.

The reason I added before the damage result of the dice is declared is it gived timing to brutal to occur before luckbenders (use the second result even if it is lower). Hence it would give a perfect timing situation.

And doesn't specific just bluntly beats general.  In general rolling a 1 on a brutal 1 weapon allows you to reroll, but luckbenders states straight up use the rerolled dice even if it is lower. To me it doesn't allow brutal a chance to kick in.

Timing is a huge thing especially since most of my group including myself is big into CCG's and looking it over in a CCG midset, this truly means that brutal doesn't have a chance to kick in unless one or the other is reworded.

And doesn't specific just bluntly beats general.  In general rolling a 1 on a brutal 1 weapon allows you to reroll, but luckbenders states straight up use the rerolled dice even if it is lower. To me it doesn't allow brutal a chance to kick in.

It's really just not a great example of specific beats general, typically it's quite clear what general rule is broken. A perfect example of specific beats general are stealth powers that say "Roll a stealth check to become hidden even if you don't have superior cover or concealment."

I don't think you are looking at the timing correctly. Luckbender lets you reroll a weapon dice but that roll isn't 'rolled' until you resolve the brutal effect. There's no true result to the roll until you have rolled above the brutal value.

I agree thats how it should be written and understood. And I feel many already see it as such, but I don't see anywhere that it is stated as such. I admit, until this past week, I didn't think twice about rerolls and brutal until I actually read the definition of brutal and the power. Thats why I brought this to the forums and why I sent in a CSR request on it. It has been elevated to the next level.

I just think that as it is written, its not as to how it was intended. And how it was and is written leaves it open to specific vs general. And I hope I am wrong with this, but I am looking for proof that I am wrong or proof in timing or proof that as you stated "There's no true result to the roll until you have rolled above the brutal value." But I need something to say this other then the definition of Brutal and the power on Luckbenders to make this clear.

To my understanding as to why its specific vs general is that specific says to do "b" when "event 1" occurs instead of doing the normal "a" or if there is no normal situation, then do "something" in regards to an "action performed". When the power says to keep the second roll even if it is lower to me states specific "something" when the "action performed" was the reroll.

 
I just think that as it is written, its not as to how it was intended. And how it was and is written leaves it open to specific vs general. And I hope I am wrong with this, but I am looking for proof that I am wrong or proof in timing or proof that as you stated "There's no true result to the roll until you have rolled above the brutal value." But I need something to say this other then the definition of Brutal and the power on Luckbenders to make this clear.

The proof is there, I just don't think you are connecting the dots all the way.
When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon.

Now, with Luckbender Gloves ask these questions.

1. Are you rolling weapon damage? Yes, even though it's a reroll of the weapon damage.
2. Did you roll at or below the brutal value? If yes, reroll.

To my understanding as to why its specific vs general is that specific says to do "b" when "event 1" occurs instead of doing the normal "a" or if there is no normal situation, then do "something" in regards to an "action performed". When the power says to keep the second roll even if it is lower to me states specific "something" when the "action performed" was the reroll.

Yes but you need something to conflict in the first place, if there's no conflict you don't need a specific beats general. Just think you are reading into things way way way too much and generating a conflict out of thin air.

Here is my hang up on this explanation. You have a die roll that doesn't qualify for brutal and you don't like it. You then roll the die again with luckbenders where it states to take the roll no matter if it is lower. How is that not specific?

So I pick up the die on a 3 for example. I reroll the die. Luckbenders says to take that roll even if its lower. From activating luckbenders that next roll is the last roll as per the power. So before I even roll the dice I know it says its the last roll. Unless there is a timing rule I have missed saying Brutal happens or another example other then the base definition and power I don't think i can make the RAW connection you are making. Thats why I am looking for another example or ruling or posting that by default makes this situation explained. I can see it as RAI. 

 
Here is my hang up on this explanation. You have a die roll that doesn't qualify for brutal and you don't like it. You then roll the die again with luckbenders where it states to take the roll no matter if it is lower. How is that not specific?

So I pick up the die on a 3 for example. I reroll the die. Luckbenders says to take that roll even if its lower. From activating luckbenders that next roll is the last roll as per the power. So before I even roll the dice I know it says its the last roll. Unless there is a timing rule I have missed saying Brutal happens or another example other then the base definition and power I don't think i can make the RAW connection you are making. Thats why I am looking for another example or ruling or posting that by default makes this situation explained. I can see it as RAI. 

 

Why are you divorcing the initial roll from being a weapon damage roll? It's always a weapon damage roll and weapon damage rolls qualify for the brutal property of the weapon. Why does rerolling it make it not a weapon damage roll? If you used elven accuracy on a d20 roll does that roll suddenly lose whatever intrinsic qualities it had before?

Luckbender never says its the last roll, it says to take the second result. Arriving at that second result could require additional rolls in the case of a brutal weapon because you are rolling a weapon damage roll.

Anyways, I see the primary gap in your logic being uneccesarily divorcing the reroll from it being a weapon damage roll, which brutal lets you reroll.

Here is my hang up on this explanation. You have a die roll that doesn't qualify for brutal and you don't like it. You then roll the die again with luckbenders where it states to take the roll no matter if it is lower. How is that not specific?



Because, again, it means when you reroll you can't reroll and, if lower, decide to take the initial roll.

Your worry about timing is unfounded because Brutal happens regardless if it's a W die being rolled, for any reason.  Whether it be thorugh a reroll power, if it's High Crit dice, etc.

If you are worried about playing by strict RAW, the RAW is: if the die value of a Burital weapon is equal to or less than the Brutal rating you roll it again until you achieve a result greater than the Brutal rating.  The reroll ability of the Luckbenders do not change that.  As was pointed out with the text of Brutal, the weapon is considered to have a higher minimum damage.  Reroll powers aren't going to change the fact that an executioners axe is meant to have a damage range of 3-12 instead of 1-12.
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If you are worried about playing by strict RAW, the RAW is: if the die value of a Burital weapon is equal to or less than the Brutal rating you roll it again until you achieve a result greater than the Brutal rating.  The reroll ability of the Luckbenders do not change that.  As was pointed out with the text of Brutal, the weapon is considered to have a higher minimum damage.  Reroll powers aren't going to change the fact that an executioners axe is meant to have a damage range of 3-12 instead of 1-12.




But you are asking me to RAW as if the die value of the Brutal weapon is greater then the brutal weapon else reroll it. However RAW by definition doesn't fit as it isn't written as such, the very definition of RAW. It is assumed to be as such. RAI in my opinion is using assumptions to make sense of a rule to connect the dots. But reading over brutal again, it only states that brutal weapons only do more damage then normal weapons, not more damage then brutal rating, why? And then it says you may reroll the dice until a number greater then the brutal is the result, why not make a minimum dmg then? Rerolling is not the same as setting min dmg. Luckbenders also states take the second roll even if it is lower cause luckbenders specifically says so. If there anything outside of the brutal definition or the power with luckbenders that a person can point to? 

I did email the CSR for a response. It has been elevated to the next level. I am only look for a ruling that isn't yet written or one from a source other then the definition of Brutal or Luckbenders. And not saying how it is intended to work will end this cause reading it simply and basically without knowing anything about the game, one would automatically see luckbenders plainly stops rolls after the one roll, and not allowing brutal to kick in. Until the wording is changed. 

If I were to state it as if option A occurs, do option B until Option A not Equal X.  Makes sense. Then I state do option C which is option B but only 1 time as per the ruling and use the new option that would mean Option B can equal X. Both use Option B, however one states a specific number of times it can be exectued.

The Structure of this game is very much like a flow chart or programming in how timing works. And as it is defined at the core of the wording, it would mean until clarrified or changed that luckbenders ouweighs brutal.

And please when showing me how RAW is suppose to be don't change the wording as it changes the meaning from the original. Changing the wording shows Intent vs Written.
 
But you are asking me to RAW as if the die value of the Brutal weapon is greater then the brutal weapon else reroll it. However RAW by definition doesn't fit as it isn't written as such, the very definition of RAW.



Huh?  That is the definition of Brutal. 

From AV1:
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s  brutal value, and then use the new value.

For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher.



From the Compendium:
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.



So yeah, if you have a brutal 1 weapon., if the Damage die shows a 1, you roll again until it's > 1.  If it's Brutal 2, you reroll until it's > 2.  It it was Brutal 3, etc.

It is assumed to be as such. RAI in my opinion is using assumptions to make sense of a rule to connect the dots. But reading over brutal again, it only states that brutal weapons only do more damage then normal weapons, not more damage then brutal rating, why?



Again... Huh?  Have you actually read what is in the Adventurer's Vault or the compendium?  What part of "Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value" means it doesn't say it does more damage than the brutal rating?

And then it says you may reroll the dice until a number greater then the brutal is the result, why not make a minimum dmg then? Rerolling is not the same as setting min dmg.



You're the one who wants the RAW.  Setting min. damage isn't RAW for brutal.  RAW says you roll until it's greater than the brutal rating, not set the damage to one above the brutal rating.

Luckbenders also states take the second roll even if it is lower cause luckbenders specifically says so. If there anything outside of the brutal definition or the power with luckbenders that a person can point to?



No, there's no need to.  Luckbenders allow to reroll.  However it doesn't suddenly make the weapon loose it's brutal property.  A brutal weapon is never not a brutal weapon.  It doesn't matter what the Luckbender says... every reroll power that doesn't allow you to pick which result to use says the same thing.  Now, if the Luckbender said somethign along the lines of you must accept the second value even if it is lower and you cannot make a brutal reroll to change the value, that would be a specific trumping general rule that would disallow the brutal.

If you rolled a 2, and used luckbenders to reroll it and it came up 1 and you have a brutal 1 weapon you have to accept that roll.  However, since it's a brutal weapon, you have to reroll it because a brutal weapon CANNOT have a die value equal to or lower than its brutal value.

It's very simple, I don't know why you don't see it.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
But you are asking me to RAW as if the die value of the Brutal weapon is greater then the brutal weapon else reroll it. However RAW by definition doesn't fit as it isn't written as such, the very definition of RAW.



Huh?  That is the definition of Brutal. 

From AV1:
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s  brutal value, and then use the new value.

For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher.



From the Compendium:
A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.



So yeah, if you have a brutal 1 weapon., if the Damage die shows a 1, you roll again until it's > 1.  If it's Brutal 2, you reroll until it's > 2.  It it was Brutal 3, etc.

It is assumed to be as such. RAI in my opinion is using assumptions to make sense of a rule to connect the dots. But reading over brutal again, it only states that brutal weapons only do more damage then normal weapons, not more damage then brutal rating, why?



Again... Huh?  Have you actually read what is in the Adventurer's Vault or the compendium?  What part of "Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value" means it doesn't say it does more damage than the brutal rating?

And then it says you may reroll the dice until a number greater then the brutal is the result, why not make a minimum dmg then? Rerolling is not the same as setting min dmg.



You're the one who wants the RAW.  Setting min. damage isn't RAW for brutal.  RAW says you roll until it's greater than the brutal rating, not set the damage to one above the brutal rating.

Luckbenders also states take the second roll even if it is lower cause luckbenders specifically says so. If there anything outside of the brutal definition or the power with luckbenders that a person can point to?



No, there's no need to.  Luckbenders allow to reroll.  However it doesn't suddenly make the weapon loose it's brutal property.  A brutal weapon is never not a brutal weapon.  It doesn't matter what the Luckbender says... every reroll power that doesn't allow you to pick which result to use says the same thing.  Now, if the Luckbender said somethign along the lines of you must accept the second value even if it is lower and you cannot make a brutal reroll to change the value, that would be a specific trumping general rule that would disallow the brutal.

If you rolled a 2, and used luckbenders to reroll it and it came up 1 and you have a brutal 1 weapon you have to accept that roll.  However, since it's a brutal weapon, you have to reroll it because a brutal weapon CANNOT have a die value equal to or lower than its brutal value.

It's very simple, I don't know why you don't see it.
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I agree with everyone else on this one.  This isn't a case of specific beats general, this is a case of applying two noninteracting rules.  The process of rolling a brutal weapon's dice simply includes rerolling ones.
A brutal weapon is equivalent in damage to a weapon with a smaller die size and a bonus to damage.  It's sometimes simpler just to roll it as such rather than worry about rerolls.  e.g. If I were rolling a d8 brutal 2 weapon, I would probably just roll d6+2 for each die.  (So if it's a 3[W] attack, I'd roll 3d6+6.)  Resolving d8 brutal 2 takes 33% longer than a d8 roll - I can work out d6+2 more quickly than that.
Rules interactions with brutal weapons should preserve that property - you should still be able to roll it as a smaller die.  That means that if you ever reroll damage on a brutal weapon due to some other power or feat, you do it after seeing the results of the brutal reroll, and the new result gets the brutal reroll as well.

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While I agree with those who say you always re-roll with the Brutal property - even if you re-roll again based upon Luckbending or the like.

But... it's pretty clear there there are two right answers per RAW - it;s a matter on interpretation.  I think the interpretation that makes you get stuck with a damage result of "1" with a Brutal weapon is not the right one, it is valid per a reading of RAW.
But... it's pretty clear there there are two right answers per RAW - it;s a matter on interpretation.  I think the interpretation that makes you get stuck with a damage result of "1" with a Brutal weapon is not the right one, it is valid per a reading of RAW.



Except it isn't.  That ignores the RAW of Brutal.  Brutal cannot be lower than its value.

Resolving d8 brutal 2 takes 33% longer than a d8 roll - I can work out d6+2 more quickly than that.



Excep tthen you mis out on the satisfaction of rolling under then brutal value and rerolling to get the max value. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Maybe if you thought about Luckbender's rule this way:

Are there ever circumstances when you ignore Luckbender's instruction to take the second roll?

Yes. The die is cocked. The die rolls onto the floor. The die rolls under the fridge. The die is eaten by the dog.

Therefore, it is possible, without breaking the rules, to reroll a Luckbender reroll.  Those situations arise when the number on the die cannot be determined or when using that number would break a rule (such as "Reroll all the dice on the floor").

So, when you reroll a Brutal Weapon die, and it rolls the Brutal Value or less, there's a rule that tells you to reroll that die. You already know that there are circumstances (including when following another rule) that allow you to ignore the prohibition on a reroll on Luckbender. There don't appear to be any other circumstances that tell you to ignore the Brutal rule. Thus, to avoid breaking a rule (Brutal), you ignore the rule (Luckbender), which you already have established is permissible to break in certain specific circumstances, including "when following another rule". 

That's not ironclad, because "reroll the dice on the floor" isn't an official rule, but I think it's illustrative. The prohibition from Luckbender is there to prevent you from deciding to go with the original roll, not to prevent you from EVER rerolling the second roll (although forcing a player to delicately shift the fridge to read the die is an attractive rules application).

Alternatively, when you use Luckbender on  a Brutal Weapon and roll a 1, you are ejected from the game as a cheater, because regardless of what you do, you have knowingly and voluntarily broken a rule. If your game group is a bunch of dangerously free thinking anarchists, you could decide to allow someone to break one of the two rules, rather than making them quit. I would probably choose to break the rule on Luckbender.  
But... it's pretty clear there there are two right answers per RAW - it;s a matter on interpretation.  I think the interpretation that makes you get stuck with a damage result of "1" with a Brutal weapon is not the right one, it is valid per a reading of RAW.



Except it isn't.  That ignores the RAW of Brutal.  Brutal cannot be lower than its value.

Excep tthen you mis out on the satisfaction of rolling under then brutal value and rerolling to get the max value. 




Well I never said I didn't agree with you RAI, I do have to speak against this in RAW. Artoomis see's it is RAW but that RAW is flawed. Hence why I asked if there were other rulings on this.

Brutal never says in it definition it can not ever be lower than its value. It also never states a minimum damage. To me brutal is just another re roll ability and not a minimum dmg property by its own definition. If it was to establish a minimum damage then it would be defined simply as if you roll something below its minimum, set it at its minimum. There are already powers that do that. I know of one that treats a roll as such. But it only says by definition that you can reroll it over and over again until its above its brutal rating. Hence as you said get max value. If my first roll is a 1, minimum dmg would make it a 3 for the example of a craghammer. Not max dmg unless it was a reroll ability. And this is where the contradiction where luckbenders and reroll powers come in. They state take the next roll as the final roll. I am not jumping off the deep end here, just taking the defintion and the power at face value, and when specific beats general, luckbenders wins.

Please think of this beyond RAI and assumptions and break it down to just the 2 statements. And you can see my point if you don't get to upset. I am not forcing anyone to play RAW just that RAW states this and it should be changed to the popular IDEA of RAI. And that it should be fixed unless there is a ruling else where that I have missed which NO ONE has stated as of yet. Sofar this conversation has only been about interpertation of the RAW by stating RAI and not the RAW itself.
Well I never said I didn't agree with you RAI, I do have to speak against this in RAW. Artoomis see's it is RAW but that RAW is flawed. Hence why I asked if there were other rulings on this.

Brutal never says in it definition it can not ever be lower than its value. It also never states a minimum damage. To me brutal is just another re roll ability and not a minimum dmg property by its own definition. If it was to establish a minimum damage then it would be defined simply as if you roll something below its minimum, set it at its minimum. There are already powers that do that. I know of one that treats a roll as such. But it only says by definition that you can reroll it over and over again until its above its brutal rating. Hence as you said get max value. If my first roll is a 1, minimum dmg would make it a 3 for the example of a craghammer. Not max dmg unless it was a reroll ability. And this is where the contradiction where luckbenders and reroll powers come in. They state take the next roll as the final roll. I am not jumping off the deep end here, just taking the defintion and the power at face value, and when specific beats general, luckbenders wins.

Please think of this beyond RAI and assumptions and break it down to just the 2 statements. And you can see my point if you don't get to upset. I am not forcing anyone to play RAW just that RAW states this and it should be changed to the popular IDEA of RAI. And that it should be fixed unless there is a ruling else where that I have missed which NO ONE has stated as of yet. Sofar this conversation has only been about interpertation of the RAW by stating RAI and not the RAW itself.

I still don't see where you are coming from. Brutal specifically says the weapon has a higher minimum damage. How does Brutal accomplish this? If you roll a 1 or a 2 you reroll, that is exactly how it establishes minimum damage. Could it have, instead, established a minimum damage by saying if you roll a 1 or a 2 treat that result as a 3? Yes, but it didn't, instead, it sets minimum damage by requiring rerolls. I don't see how that is so hard to understand when the text specifically talks about having a higher minimum damage.

If I understood what Artoomis said he wasn't specifically agreeing with you. You seem to think RAW doesn't allow the reroll. Artoomis seemed to believe RAW did allow the reroll but that it was possible to read RAW as not allowing it. Those are two very different positions. Artoomis can correct me if I'm wrong on that, I really haven't read incredibly thoroughly since at this point it's just rehasing the same stuff again & again.

You have already agreed, I believe, that RAI allows the reroll. Assuming, just for argument's sake, that one reading of RAW would not allow the reroll there would then be two valid ways of reading RAW. If that's the case I would posit that where there are two ways to read RAW the one that is clearly in line with RAI is most likely the correct one.

Just think you are trying to read way too much into things and are creating conflicts where none exist.
The simplest way to handle it correctly every single time without exception is to actually *replace* the dice.  Instead of rolling "d12 Brutal 2", roll "d10+2".  Instead of "d10 Brutal 2", roll "d8+2".

Same, perfect results, every time, no rerolling required, AND it very clearly makes the result of things like Luckbender gloves obvious for the audience.  For a Craghammer, the possible results of W are 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.  A Craghammer can *never* have a W die come up 1 or 2, so you might as well just roll 1d8+2 and get thigns over with.

(Of course, trying to fix Kukris and Mordenkrads this way involves needing d5s.  Not quite so simple, for them.)
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The feat Punishing Axe that is a paragon feat is what a lot of people are defining brutal as since this feat is stated by establishing a minimum damage. However that feat doesn't apply Brutal to the dice, it actually establishes a minimum damage roll. This to me points out that brutal is still a re roll ability. 

Brutal does say it has a higher minimum damage to a 'standard weapon'. This general condition is satisfied before luckbenders is used. Nothing beyond that sets what the damage should be. But the "." does seperate out the wording in brutal so what follows is a re roll ability. What I am trying to say for RAW is that the reroll ability does interact and contradict that of another reroll power where it says the next roll result is the final roll. 
I like your methodology for the house rule of just rolling the smaller die and adding the brutal rating but that does limit the ability to reroll for higher then min damage. Hence another issue that brutal is more of a reroll ability then a min dmg ability.
Brutal does say it has a higher minimum damage to a 'standard weapon'. This general condition is satisfied before luckbenders is used. Nothing beyond that sets what the damage should be. But the "." does seperate out the wording in brutal so what follows is a re roll ability. What I am trying to say for RAW is that the reroll ability does interact and contradict that of another reroll power where it says the next roll result is the final roll. 

Why is that condition satisfied before Luckbender is used? You are still rolling a weapon damage dice, which is what brutal applies too. There's nothing to indicate why you should separate it in such an illogical manner, which is exactly what you are doing.