4/21/2010 StF: "Rise of the Inbox"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Savor the Flavor, which goes live Wednesday on magicthegathering.com.
So, how long do I have to wait for Ghostfire to be a "real" card?  Far flung future.  
Where did all the humans in ROE come from? I don't seem to recall any in Zendikar or Worldwake, except the planeswalkers.
Where did all the humans in ROE come from? I don't seem to recall any in Zendikar or Worldwake, except the planeswalkers.



They've been there sice the beginning: beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/D...["Zendikar"]|["Worldwake"]&subtype=+["Human"]


Anyway, the frame of Ghostfire was an issue that, in part, kept it out of the set? I actually agree that it probably doesn't belong in RoE (I'd like it if it was always kept from reprint, as a teaser), but all the future-shifted cards that have seen reprint were given traditional frames. Why wouldn't they Ghostfire have been treated in the same way? 
Where did all the humans in ROE come from? I don't seem to recall any in Zendikar or Worldwake, except the planeswalkers.



They've been there sice the beginning: beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/D...["Zendikar"]|["Worldwake"]&subtype=+["Human"]


Anyway, the frame of Ghostfire was an issue that, in part, kept it out of the set? I actually agree that it probably doesn't belong in RoE (I'd like it if it was always kept from reprint, as a teaser), but all the future-shifted cards that have seen reprint were given traditional frames. Why wouldn't they Ghostfire have been treated in the same way? 



It would probably look disjointed to give Ghostfire the glass frame, and then put a red mana symbol in the corner.
 
I realize from a mechanics standpoint (and overall set integration) it makes sense to make these guys colorless and therefore you can pay with any mana.  What I'm having a difficult time reconciling is why you're allowed to pay the Eldrazi costs with white mana.  I thought white was the color of purity, honor, and justice.  These big baddies seem anything but.  Unless their internal motives are purity, honor, and justice in the form of destroying everything that is against their will.
Where did all the humans in ROE come from? I don't seem to recall any in Zendikar or Worldwake, except the planeswalkers.



They've been there sice the beginning: beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/D...["Zendikar"]|["Worldwake"]&subtype=+["Human"]
 


Ah, I didn't notice that. Thanks. =)
So, how long do I have to wait for Ghostfire to be a "real" card?  Far flung future.  

It most likely never will be reprinted, at least not with the same name and flavor. It did its job of hinting at a future setting, a setting where the card itself didn't fit well enough, so it missed its chance.

A lot of people (not necessarly yourself, but this still warrants reminding others) still seem to think that all of Future Sight's shifted cards mandatorily have to be reprinted, but that's not the case. It has been explained that those cards were hints at possible futures, and possible future settings. Ghostfire is not the first to miss its chance like this : Nacatl War-Pride, from a creative standpoint, is evidently from Alara, but the card wasn't reprinted because of its heavy mono-coloredness and because it did not fit with Naya's mechanical feel.

The further in time the game advances from Future Sight, the less likely it is that we're gonna see futureshifted cards reprinted, and the less references to the set we will see. At the time they designed the set, there was only a handful of future projects in motion, and only a part of them had their creative feel determined. So some direct pre-prints from the few subsequent sets were planted in it, but the rest gets less and less likely to reprinted with time, because the current sets and beyond weren't planned at the time of Future Sight. I am pretty sure that they will keep drawing ideas from Future Sight, both mechanicaly and creatively, because it was an innovative set made to tap into possible future design space, but I think the result will most often be the same as with War-Pride and Ghostfire : a creative link, but no reprint unless the card happens to fit the new setting perfectly.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
I realize from a mechanics standpoint (and overall set integration) it makes sense to make these guys colorless and therefore you can pay with any mana.  What I'm having a difficult time reconciling is why you're allowed to pay the Eldrazi costs with white mana.  I thought white was the color of purity, honor, and justice.  These big baddies seem anything but.  Unless their internal motives are purity, honor, and justice in the form of destroying everything that is against their will.

Note that you can use all white mana to pay for the colorless part of the cost of a big bad black demon, and it's always been that way. That makes even much less sense than using white to summon the Eldrazi, which are in no special way opposite to any of the five colors because they're simply outside of their system. They're even hard to define as "evil" as they are simply too alien with an alien form of intelligence and alien motives, the only understable ones being that they want to feed and that they want to roam free.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
you should have pressed for ghostfire. you failed the fans, you failed Ugin and you failed the theme concept. we can say no more.

The further in time the game advances from Future Sight, the less likely it is that we're gonna see futureshifted cards reprinted, and the less references to the set we will see. At the time they designed the set, there was only a handful of future projects in motion, and only a part of them had their creative feel determined. So some direct pre-prints from the few subsequent sets were planted in it, but the rest gets less and less likely to reprinted with time, because the current sets and beyond weren't planned at the time of Future Sight. I am pretty sure that they will keep drawing ideas from Future Sight, both mechanicaly and creatively, because it was an innovative set made to tap into possible future design space, but I think the result will most often be the same as with War-Pride and Ghostfire : a creative link, but no reprint unless the card happens to fit the new setting perfectly.



I hope they don't stop referring to the set.. I love the tiny glimpses of flavor we got in some of those cards!  Some highlights for me: Street Wraith, Fomori Nomad, Edge of Autumn all the shifted lands.

I could also see Darksteel Garrison being a good fit in the upcoming block, although I'd prefer the mechanic tweaked.  It would be interesting pairing "fortify" with the Zendikar man-lands.

you should have pressed for ghostfire. you failed the fans, you failed Ugin and you failed the theme concept. we can say no more.



I'm not sure I'd use the word "failed", but "disappointed" certainly fits the bill. When you originally put these cards in Future Sight, no matter how much you tried to spin it otherwise, most people who opened cards like that thought they were quite plainly "pre"prints of cards from sets to come. They put together in their heads (from info you provided) about how that set would look and play. You obviously had some idea of what you wanted to do with mechanic of Ghostfire when you designed it, and, yes,  you could have pressed for its inclusion in the set regardless (though it would have been even better if the set had made to naturally fit the theme of what you had already hinted at). 

And trying to blame the Future Sight frame? That's just pathetic, and I call you out for that bit of weasel-ness right here and now. You foisted the horrific Windows XP frame on us without any hesitation whatsoever, so trying to blame the frame for something like this is, as noted, pathetic and weaselly.


And as for paying colored mana for the "colorless" Eldrazi: you really missed your opportunity to finally introduce the 6th basic land type. You could have created a new symbol for the colorless Eldrazi's mana costs, to ensure only mana from this new colorless land type was used. When the "land matters" theme of Zen/Wake was announced so soon after Barry's Land was dropped from Alara block, I just knew you had found the way to make it work, and then when we learned about the "colorless" casting costs of ROE, I was even more sure it was happening.

Why do I keep setting my sights so high for you guys? Why does it seem my ideas for a fantasy based card game seem more fantastic than what we keep getting?  
Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013
With respect to one question answered in that article: if I remember correctly, the planeswalkers for which we have cards are the "new style" planeswalkers that are limited in power... while we, the players, are still the near-omnipotent "old style" planeswalkers.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

You foisted the horrific Windows XP frame on us without any hesitation whatsoever, so trying to blame the frame for something like this is, as noted, pathetic and weaselly.


The what?


And as for paying colored mana for the "colorless" Eldrazi: you really missed your opportunity to finally introduce the 6th basic land type. You could have created a new symbol for the colorless Eldrazi's mana costs, to ensure only mana from this new colorless land type was used. When the "land matters" theme of Zen/Wake was announced so soon after Barry's Land was dropped from Alara block, I just knew you had found the way to make it work, and then when we learned about the "colorless" casting costs of ROE, I was even more sure it was happening.


So make the set into another Kamigawa? I can't see one reason, other than your wishes, that this is a good idea. Literally all it does is cut off interaction with other sets, with no gain. Okay one higher domain count, whoopee.
Why do I keep setting my sights so high for you guys? Why does it seem my ideas for a fantasy based card game seem more fantastic than what we keep getting?  


Because most of your ideas either lower profits or, in this case, make a set incredibly insular?

With respect to one question answered in that article: if I remember correctly, the planeswalkers for which we have cards are the "new style" planeswalkers that are limited in power... while we, the players, are still the near-omnipotent "old style" planeswalkers.



I think of it more as "I used this mana to contact the planeswalker, and she agreed to help me for a while" rather than "I summon this planeswalker and make her ping my enemy".
 
Where did all the humans in ROE come from? I don't seem to recall any in Zendikar or Worldwake, except the planeswalkers.

It's already been pointed out to you that we've had humans throughout ZEN and WWK, but I think you had your question because there are more humans in ROE than there are in ZEN and WWK combined.  I don't understand why, since I had always assumed that the proportions of different creature types in a set were the same as those proportions in the set's world.  Did the Eldrazi kill a lot of members of the nonhuman races first?  Are the humans rising to the challenge of the Eldrazi more than the nonhumans are?

Speaking of humans, is it me or do the humans of this block have equipment that's way too nice for a world as savage as Zendikar?  I know someone mentioned this on these boards before, but I can't find where.
You foisted the horrific Windows XP frame on us without any hesitation whatsoever, so trying to blame the frame for something like this is, as noted, pathetic and weaselly.


The what?


The new style frame, I've heard it described that way by others, it's the only thing I could think of that other folks might understand. But my point still stands, to blame not printing Ghostfire in this set because it used the Future Sight frame is just pathetic and weaselly. 


And as for paying colored mana for the "colorless" Eldrazi: you really missed your opportunity to finally introduce the 6th basic land type. You could have created a new symbol for the colorless Eldrazi's mana costs, to ensure only mana from this new colorless land type was used. When the "land matters" theme of Zen/Wake was announced so soon after Barry's Land was dropped from Alara block, I just knew you had found the way to make it work, and then when we learned about the "colorless" casting costs of ROE, I was even more sure it was happening.




So make the set into another Kamigawa? I can't see one reason, other than your wishes, that this is a good idea. Literally all it does is cut off interaction with other sets, with no gain. Okay one higher domain count, whoopee.



They've talked about doing it for years, so it's not something they're just going to throw in without any consideration, which is why I halfway expected to see it. I'm not stupid enough to expect them to throw in something just because it looks cool, I read the articles every week and if anything, I've learned how willing they are to cut stuff that isn't working, as much as it pains me to see it go. 

As far as the 6th basic land type, their discussions from Alara made me feel that they were just on the cusp of getting it sorted out before it had to be cut, and when the very next block has a land theme, with the third set in the block having to do with "sorta" alternate casting costs, well, I guess I leapt to a different conclusion than WOTC did. Maybe we've got different "Leap to Conclusion" mats or something. 

Why do I keep setting my sights so high for you guys? Why does it seem my ideas for a fantasy based card game seem more fantastic than what we keep getting?  




Because most of your ideas either lower profits or, in this case, make a set incredibly insular?




Again, my speculation was based on previously discussed design ideas and theories from WOTC. I think that last comment is a little harsh. It's not like I'm asking for a contraptions block. 

Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013

The new style frame, I've heard it described that way by others, it's the only thing I could think of that other folks might understand. But my point still stands, to blame not printing Ghostfire in this set because it used the Future Sight frame is just pathetic and weaselly.


I didn't read his statement that way at all. I read it as a small aside about how the frames were made different and then he gives his, valid, reasoning as to why ghostfire wasn't in.
They've talked about doing it for years, so it's not something they're just going to throw in without any consideration, which is why I halfway expected to see it. I'm not stupid enough to expect them to throw in something just because it looks cool, I read the articles every week and if anything, I've learned how willing they are to cut stuff that isn't working, as much as it pains me to see it go.


If it was to be in it would have been in the block with Domain or the one with a land theme. ROE has nothing that has anything to do with Barry's land or a 6th color. Sure they coulllld've made a 6th color but thats just wishful thinking, or cursed thinking if you oppose it.

As far as the 6th basic land type, their discussions from Alara made me feel that they were just on the cusp of getting it sorted out before it had to be cut, and when the very next block has a land theme, with the third set in the block having to do with "sorta" alternate casting costs, well, I guess I leapt to a different conclusion than WOTC did. Maybe we've got different "Leap to Conclusion" mats or something.


I think you are thinking of ROE as far more of a third set than it is. It is a standalone set on the same plane.
Again, my speculation was based on previously discussed design ideas and theories from WOTC. I think that last comment is a little harsh. It's not like I'm asking for a contraptions block.


You suggested they make the Eldrazi only playable with a certain kinda mana. Thats even more insular than Kamigawa.


The new style frame, I've heard it described that way by others, it's the only thing I could think of that other folks might understand. But my point still stands, to blame not printing Ghostfire in this set because it used the Future Sight frame is just pathetic and weaselly. 




It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it was originally printed in the Future Sight frame.

It's just that the "Glass" frames they developed for Colorless Eldrazi Spells in ROE didn't, in their opinion, fit Ghostfire well.



Again, my speculation was based on previously discussed design ideas and theories from WOTC. I think that last comment is a little harsh. It's not like I'm asking for a contraptions block.


You suggested they make the Eldrazi only playable with a certain kinda mana. Thats even more insular than Kamigawa.



Then I guess it's just a flavor fail for me. The way they built up the Eldrazi as being from before "colored" mana makes me think that it should require a different type of mana to cast it, even if it's only something like requiring 2-4 of the new stuff, but being able to pay for the rest of it with any other color (kinda like how thousands of other Magic cards already do.) Or maybe it could have been done like the snow supertype on the lands or something. 

I admit I don't have all the answers, but it's not like I was pulling this one out of my butt, there was precedent.



The new style frame, I've heard it described that way by others, it's the only thing I could think of that other folks might understand. But my point still stands, to blame not printing Ghostfire in this set because it used the Future Sight frame is just pathetic and weaselly. 




It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it was originally printed in the Future Sight frame.

It's just that the "Glass" frames they developed for Colorless Eldrazi Spells in ROE didn't, in their opinion, fit Ghostfire well.





I guess then I just don't understand why it was even mentioned. It seems like they consistently try to make every excuse they can to not reprint the FS pre-prints and to throw in the comment about the frame seemed like the author was just throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.

ETA: Or is it your interpretation of that comment to mean that they just thought it wouldn't look good in that glassy frame? Cause that's even worse. 
Proud member of C.A.R.D. - Campaign Against Rare Duals "...but the time has come when lands just need to be better. Creatures have gotten stronger, spells have always been insane, and lands just sat in this awkward place of necessity." Jacob Van Lunen on the refuge duals, 16 Sep 2009. "While it made thematic sense to separate enemy and allied color fixing in the past, we have come around to the definite conclusion that it is just plain incorrect from a game-play perspective. This is one of these situations where game play should just trump flavor." - Sam Stoddard on ending the separation of allied/enemy dual lands. 05 July 2013


Then I guess it's just a flavor fail for me. The way they built up the Eldrazi as being from before "colored" mana makes me think that it should require a different type of mana to cast it, even if it's only something like requiring 2-4 of the new stuff, but being able to pay for the rest of it with any other color (kinda like how thousands of other Magic cards already do.) Or maybe it could have been done like the snow supertype on the lands or something. 

I admit I don't have all the answers, but it's not like I was pulling this one out of my butt, there was precedent.


All of those things are set-ruiningly insular as opposed to the incredibly open thing they are now. And I don't see how 'pre-colored mana' lead you to believe they used . . . a different color of mana. I dunno it just seems like colorless is the most practical, flavorful and sensible way of doing it.
I guess then I just don't understand why it was even mentioned. It seems like they consistently try to make every excuse they can to not reprint the FS pre-prints and to throw in the comment about the frame seemed like the author was just throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.
ETA: Or is it your interpretation of that comment to mean that they just thought it wouldn't look good in that glassy frame? Cause that's even worse. 


It might have been a factor but its not like its all he said on the matter. He had an actual, very reasonable and flavorful, reason right after. Its kind of silly to complain about a minor reason when they had another reason.
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