4/19/2010 MM: "To Eldrazi and Back"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I must admit, I wasn't happy when I found out that Ulamog's Crusher got its drawback because playtesters weren't attacking with it, instead of any power level reasons.

It's basically a non-issue in duels, but it makes it a somewhat unattractive multiplayer card, which is unfortunate because the other cheap Eldrazi isn't nearly as good.
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.



Agreed. There's supposed to be an FFL for stuff like this.

I suppose that reasoning could also be used to explain how they went from trying to tone blue down some to making it bad.
So Wall of Omens is white partially because of how badly (we percieved) white was doing during Lorwyn / Alara? Ouch. So what sets were developed during the time when Spreading Seas was used as "land destruction"? This'll be good.

----------------------
Thraxihumongous 4BBRRG
Legendary Creature - Giant
Haste, trample
Whenever Thraxihumongous attacks, defending player sacrifices 2 creatures.
9/9
Nooooo! I don't want to attack with my Thraxihumongous! You might block it!
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.



There are more formats then Standard first and secondly he said blue already had Mnemonic Wall...is it really so awful white got a cantrip wall...I mean its not like UW control cares what color the wall is...
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.



Are you referring to shattering spree which actually saw a lot of play as an affinity hoser in extended after mirrodin rotated? I never really had a problem with wall of omens being white. Anyway I think his point was that in general white was considered to be underpowered so they were coming up with ways to make it more competitive since Lorwyn. path to exile followed by baneslayer angel followed by kor firewalker and now wall of omens. They have been flooding white with good stuff recently in part due to the fact that it was so underpowered. Even with the FFL they can't balance all five colors perfectly one color will find itself in the role of "best color" while another is "worst color".

To me good cards are welcome at any time. Better late than never on shattering spree. Keep in mind that wall of blossoms would have been out of color for blue as well as they don't usually get 0/4 defenders for 2 mana let alone with a cantrip attached. The closest thing I've seen in recent memory was bonded fetch
Don't be too smart to have fun
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.



No, it does make sense. The point is to avoid too many Std seasons in a row dominated by one color.

Yes, Faeries would have rotated out by the time ZEN/ROE came in, and R&D knew that. R&D wasn't trying to hose Faeries by printing Wall of Omens in white; R&D was trying to prevent yet another consecutive season dominated by blue.

They didn't put wall of omens in blue because faeries was around. 



All the design reasons pointed to white.  It is just that at the time in which they designed it, Blue was a dominant power, so it didn't seem like blue needed a push over the edge.   

erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really enjoyed the Crusher story, I've always wondered why a mostly irrelevant line of text was on a common
I must admit, I wasn't happy when I found out that Ulamog's Crusher got its drawback because playtesters weren't attacking with it, instead of any power level reasons.

It's basically a non-issue in duels, but it makes it a somewhat unattractive multiplayer card, which is unfortunate because the other cheap Eldrazi isn't nearly as good.

Oh, I think it's a good line of text to have on a multiplayer card.  First, people in multiplayer need to be reminded to attack even more than people in duels do.  Second, when you do attack someone in multiplayer with Ulamog's Crusher, you can be apologetic, and say "sorry, I have no choice".  They'll still want to kill your creature just as much, but they may be less frustrated with you personally.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
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These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
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Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Dear Mark

How about an article on why you design rarity=power now.

Thanks

HWM
Personally I think making Wall of Omens white rather than blue was absolutely the right decision.  Good job on that one.

On the other hand, I'm a bit annoyed that RoE has continued the M10 plan of making of functional reprints with worse names than the original.  Case in point: Shrivel, Last Kiss, and Evolving Wilds.  Sometimes it does make sense to use a new name for flavor reasons.  But none of those names are any more specific to this set than Nausea, Douse in Gloom, or Terramorphic Expanse, they sound dumb, and they prevent people from playing their old cards.

Overall I do think the set looks pretty cool and I'm looking forward to the MODO release.
I must admit, I wasn't happy when I found out that Ulamog's Crusher got its drawback because playtesters weren't attacking with it, instead of any power level reasons.

It's basically a non-issue in duels, but it makes it a somewhat unattractive multiplayer card, which is unfortunate because the other cheap Eldrazi isn't nearly as good.

Oh, I think it's a good line of text to have on a multiplayer card.  First, people in multiplayer need to be reminded to attack even more than people in duels do.  Second, when you do attack someone in multiplayer with Ulamog's Crusher, you can be apologetic, and say "sorry, I have no choice".  They'll still want to kill your creature just as much, but they may be less frustrated with you personally.




I agree that it must have the attack if able line, but the reason behind is stupid....and who are these "less experienced" players they keep turning to to playtest the new cards...?
maybe they had good reason not to attack, because the opponent had a deathtouch creature.?!

b) that's not going to work because: you could have attacked somebody else....

I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.



Are you referring to shattering spree which actually saw a lot of play as an affinity hoser in extended after mirrodin rotated? I never really had a problem with wall of omens being white. Anyway I think his point was that in general white was considered to be underpowered so they were coming up with ways to make it more competitive since Lorwyn. path to exile followed by baneslayer angel followed by kor firewalker and now wall of omens. They have been flooding white with good stuff recently in part due to the fact that it was so underpowered. Even with the FFL they can't balance all five colors perfectly one color will find itself in the role of "best color" while another is "worst color".

To me good cards are welcome at any time. Better late than never on shattering spree. Keep in mind that wall of blossoms would have been out of color for blue as well as they don't usually get 0/4 defenders for 2 mana let alone with a cantrip attached. The closest thing I've seen in recent memory was bonded fetch



shattering spree came 1,5 years too late, so they had to ban most of the affinity deck long before that...

one colour will come out on top and they wanted blue to take a backseat..I'm ok with that, but then don't give me a silly reason WHY they are printed...that's all I ask

Oh and by the way If they had good playtesters every colour should/could be balanced in typeII.

I'm fine with white getting 1 really good cantrip card in a defender...3 is ridicillous !! White has better card draw then Blue..!?!

Keep in mind that wall of blossoms would have been out of color for blue as well as they don't usually get 0/4 defenders for 2 mana let alone with a cantrip attached. The closest thing I've seen in recent memory was bonded fetch


Didn't blue just get a 0/4 for ONE mana?  And it didn't even need defender!
"Our research has shown that X Mana spells confuse many players and as such I like to keep them out of common."

Wow, I suddenly feel a lot smarter than the average magic player...
our new, happy life
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.

MaRo is indeed stuck in his own little world.

"Our research shows that X spells confuse many players, and as such I like to keep them out of common" - from the article

Who is confused by X spells? Really? Were the groups they tested a bunch of elementary schoolers? And how would restricting what rarity they are printed at make a difference? They would still pop up in play anyways.
MaRo is indeed stuck in his own little world.

"Our research shows that X spells confuse many players, and as such I like to keep them out of common" - from the article

Who is confused by X spells? Really? Were the groups they tested a bunch of elementary schoolers? And how would restricting what rarity they are printed at make a difference? They would still pop up in play anyways.


No, I'm afraid it's you who're stuck in your world. You're assuming everyone's like you and your group (and for that matter my group, and most posters on the forums) - able to cope with close to all the many and complex rules of this multi-layered and immensely complex game.

It is important that the game be approachable by new players. MaRo is the one who has the survey data. You claim he's stuck in his own world even when he explicitly refers to market research they've done?

I wouldn't have thought of X spells as one of the things that'd confuse people, but the people who have the data do. They know how to do market research, almost certainly rather better than you or I do.

And yes, uncommon X spells will still pop up in play, but much less frequently to the casual players who're getting most of their cards by opening a few boosters. Rarity is one of the tools they have to balance exposure of the more complex concepts to less-experienced players. It doesn't work as effectively as a mystic lock that only let you put a card in a deck once you'd played N games or had a constructed rating of N, but it works well enough for their purposes.


On the article: I'd been hoping for a mention of why Glory Seeker and Knight of Cliffhaven are both in the set, but ah well. I do appreciate the aesthetics of things like Triple Mind Stone, or consistent level-up P/T increments. (But having 6-drops that are 6/6 at rare seems a bit much to claim as something particularly special. It's pretty common. I do love Hellcarver Demon's design though.)

One more thought: it'd be interesting to see someone answer the question which Spawnsire of Ulamog has prompted many people to ask for the first ever time, "Why isn't this creature mythic?"
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.

MaRo is indeed stuck in his own little world.

"Our research shows that X spells confuse many players, and as such I like to keep them out of common" - from the article

Who is confused by X spells? Really? Were the groups they tested a bunch of elementary schoolers? And how would restricting what rarity they are printed at make a difference? They would still pop up in play anyways.

Take it from a judge who's had to help plenty of new players with various issues: MaRo is spot on with X spells being potentially confusing.  Try to keep in mind that players who regularly play in tournaments, players who regularly read magic articles, and players who regularly post to message boards are part of a small, elite group of magic players.  The people who get confused by X spells and don't want to attack with their huge fattie?  Not part of that elite group.

t~
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Wall of Omens is white instead of blue because of *Faeries*?  Blue in Zendikar block is bad because of *Faeries*?

What, did you forget how format rotations work?  Isn't that like printing Affinity hosers in Guildpact?

Seriously, I feel like that explanation is in serious need of expansion, because right now, that just sounds like bizzaro-world MaRo.

MaRo is indeed stuck in his own little world.

"Our research shows that X spells confuse many players, and as such I like to keep them out of common" - from the article

Who is confused by X spells? Really? Were the groups they tested a bunch of elementary schoolers? And how would restricting what rarity they are printed at make a difference? They would still pop up in play anyways.

Take it from a judge who's had to help plenty of new players with various issues: MaRo is spot on with X spells being potentially confusing.  Try to keep in mind that players who regularly play in tournaments, players who regularly read magic articles, and players who regularly post to message boards are part of a small, elite group of magic players.  The people who get confused by X spells and don't want to attack with their huge fattie?  Not part of that elite group.

t~


I don't care how much data they have... If someone is confused by X spells then they probably can't handle other much more important, and more frequent, aspects of the game. And as such probably won't play the game anyways because they won't understand it. The stack is much more complex and confusing then any X spell could ever be and it pops up 10 times more often than X ever will. It is alo more important than X spells in understanding the game.

The difference between activated, triggered, and static abilities (and what that difference means in term of playing them) is also more difficult to understand than X spells.

The official rules of 2HG are hard to understand at first also.

There are tons more examples of things in the game that are alot more confusig than X.

Really though, if thier research shows that people don't understand X spell well, than many of those people need to go back to middle school and learn the concept of Variables.

what kind of players are u talking about maro? I mean if heat ray is confusing for you, level up will be much more difficult to understand. also were you inviting people with some mental disabilities to try the cards? People who would not attack, so you put that close to force them. Do us a favor, pls do not share these stories with us, you are really shaking our faith in you/your team.
Design goes through fads just like any creative endeavor. A current trend is "get A & B, either of which you'd be happy to get. This is most often used in the activation of Timmy-friendly giant monsters, almost exclusively at rare and mythic rare.


This one made me squirm a little. So getting all-upside fatties is just a current fad? So Magic will try to establish the former "get A or B" or "get A with a drawback" again in the future? I can already hear the cries about sets being lame because of making worse cards.

The power creep has always to be held in check, and I fear ROE might be too much over the top.
It bothers me that so many of the people in this community think that tournament-level players are the only ones that matter. Casual players are a vast majority, and many of them don't care to try and find all the latest rules and updates. And, yes, it makes perfect sense that X spells would not be easy to understand for new players; the idea that you can arbitrarily assign a number to whatever value you'd like is really not the most intuitive concept. I think you guys seem to think that he's implying that there are people sitting at home spending hours trying to figure this stuff out; no one does that, but if a player opens a pack of Magic and can't understand half the cards, he will not buy another.

And, by the by, Wall of Omens is fine in White; it's a cheap, all-upside, defensive creature. Very white, indeed. And every colour gets cantrips. The fact that it overlaps may make it seem blue, but no part of it fails to make sense in white...
It bothers me that so many of the people in this community think that tournament-level players are the only ones that matter. Casual players are a vast majority, and many of them don't care to try and find all the latest rules and updates. And, yes, it makes perfect sense that X spells would not be easy to understand for new players; the idea that you can arbitrarily assign a number to whatever value you'd like is really not the most intuitive concept. I think you guys seem to think that he's implying that there are people sitting at home spending hours trying to figure this stuff out; no one does that, but if a player opens a pack of Magic and can't understand half the cards, he will not buy another.

And, by the by, Wall of Omens is fine in White; it's a cheap, all-upside, defensive creature. Very white, indeed. And every colour gets cantrips. The fact that it overlaps may make it seem blue, but no part of it fails to make sense in white...

When did I ever say tournament players are the only players that matter? And how dare you suppose what we think. Are you a mind reader?

I am simply, as many other are, in this thread that X isn't that hard to understan. Casual player or not.

If may not be intiutive, but to understand Heat Ray all you need to do is read the danm card. Is that too much to ask?

Wow if someone gives up on something that qiuckly then society is indeed in a sad state. but its not like that. That person will buy another pack after just a qiuck read through the basic rules. My friend didn't understand at least 60% of the cards when he started. No one did, but we took a little time to learn. We didn't just throw our hands in the air and go "Well upon opening one pack and not understanding them. I have decided to not play." If you apply that logic to video games no one would ever buy a new video game because every game you play you start out with 0 knowledge of how the controls work.

If you apply that logic to video games no one would ever buy a new video game because every game you play you start out with 0 knowledge of how the controls work.




Completely untrue. There's a ton of mechanics that are shared between games and a lot of iconography that's shared throughout all media, let alone games.

Hearts representing lives/energy? Instantly understandable.

Modern FPS gamers will recognise a diminishing line or reddening screen as a sign of lowering health.

Most racing games use the right trigger to accelerate and the left to brake.

In a 2D side-on game wherein you control an avatar, the d-pad or left analogue stick should move you and the most accessible button (X on PS or A on XBox) should probably either make you jump or shoot.

There's a ton of stuff above and beyond all that, done so that the controls and mechanics become self-evident. Numbers popping up to signal what's going on 'behind the scenes', bosses or enemies flashing to show they took damage, representational objects behaving similarly to real-life counterparts...

EVERY developer wants their game to be somewhat accessible, regardless of artistic intent or the depth they hope for.
If you apply that logic to video games no one would ever buy a new video game because every game you play you start out with 0 knowledge of how the controls work.




Completely untrue. There's a ton of mechanics that are shared between games and a lot of iconography that's shared throughout all media, let alone games.

Hearts representing lives/energy? Instantly understandable.

Modern FPS gamers will recognise a diminishing line or reddening screen as a sign of lowering health.

Most racing games use the right trigger to accelerate and the left to brake.

In a 2D side-on game wherein you control an avatar, the d-pad or left analogue stick should move you and the most accessible button (X on PS or A on XBox) should probably either make you jump or shoot.

There's a ton of stuff above and beyond all that, done so that the controls and mechanics become self-evident. Numbers popping up to signal what's going on 'behind the scenes', bosses or enemies flashing to show they took damage, representational objects behaving similarly to real-life counterparts...

EVERY developer wants their game to be somewhat accessible, regardless of artistic intent or the depth they hope for.

okay, yeah, sure. There are shared elements. But, lets be honest here...

Despite all the shared elements they still vary wildly in gameplay strategy and controls. And before you ever play you have to begin somewhere with videogames. What if the person buys there first ever videogame and doesn't understand it (which is unavoidable)? Yet again applying the same logic some others have given in this thread this first time ever playing videogames should convince the person to never play one again. cause it will take them awhile to understand it.

I don't care how much data they have...


In other words, you don't care about reality, you just want to have your already-formed opinion validated.  It really is you who is stuck in your own little world, not MaRo.

There are many aspects to the game that are more confusing than X spells - and many players are confused by them as well.  What you've failed to grasp is that many of those aspects don't need to be understood by novice players.  They can play perfectly well just by doing what the cards say, and most of the time they'll get it right.  One of the primary goals Wizards has is to make the game accessible to new players by concealing the complexity from them until they're ready to handle it.  Printing complex cards at higher rarities is one way they achieve that.
Despite all the shared elements they still vary wildly in gameplay strategy and controls. And before you ever play you have to begin somewhere with videogames. What if the person buys there first ever videogame and doesn't understand it (which is unavoidable)? Yet again applying the same logic some others have given in this thread this first time ever playing videogames should convince the person to never play one again. cause it will take them awhile to understand it.


Yes, video games are a good analogy - but you're applying it completely backwards!

Video games don't throw all their complexities at the player as soon as he or she begins playing.  They have tutorials, practice stages, training stages...  They begin with the simplest levels and progress to harder and more complicated levels.  The player begins with a basic set of equipment and/or abilities, and gains more as he or she plays.

That's the same idea as printing X spells at uncommon or higher in Magic: introduce the simplest aspects of the game to the player first, and bring in the more complex stuff as they learn the game.
From the prerelease one of my opponents pulled off a Goblin Tunneler and Valakut Fireboar pretty nicely on me.  Next match I used a Perish the Thought on an opponent and he had an Ulamog's Crusher and an Eldrazi Conscription in hand.  I got rid of the Crusher and two turns later got reamed by a fully leveled Knight of Cliffhaven with the Conscription.  Good times.

Brian David-Marshall was at our prerelease and I got to see the power of the Guul Draz Assassin first-hand as he wrecked my board of all of my mid-size creatures.

Anyway, it was nice to read the backstory on some of these cards.  I think this will be a fun limited environment.
I don't care how much data they have...


In other words, you don't care about reality, you just want to have your already-formed opinion validated.  It really is you who is stuck in your own little world, not MaRo.

There are many aspects to the game that are more confusing than X spells - and many players are confused by them as well.  What you've failed to grasp is that many of those aspects don't need to be understood by novice players.  They can play perfectly well just by doing what the cards say, and most of the time they'll get it right.  One of the primary goals Wizards has is to make the game accessible to new players by concealing the complexity from them until they're ready to handle it.  Printing complex cards at higher rarities is one way they achieve that.


No, I am saying his data is completely wrong, though I could see where it sounded like that. They might have had a sample size that was too small. Or they may have just asked straight up idiots and not your average joe. Yes, Maro is in his own little world. He has consistantly made false, misleading, and sometimes flat out wrong statements.

No they can't. I can't even begin to convcieve how many times I have played with people that don't understand the rule and found that they were having botched games due to misinterpritations. Or games in which one card is highly overpowered (using thier misinterpreted rules) due to lack of comprehension of rules.

No, that won't do it at all. In a playgroup of three people, and with fireball at uncommon, how long do you think it will take for one of them to pull fireball and use it?

Simply put, what it comes down to is...

If you are older than 14 and can not comprehend Heat Ray then you are really stupid. You don't need to be playing magic in the first place.

You can play this "we are tryign to make it more comprehendable" game all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of X spells are very easily comprehended by anyone with a brain that has graduated middle school.



I don't care how much data they have...


In other words, you don't care about reality, you just want to have your already-formed opinion validated.  It really is you who is stuck in your own little world, not MaRo.

There are many aspects to the game that are more confusing than X spells - and many players are confused by them as well.  What you've failed to grasp is that many of those aspects don't need to be understood by novice players.  They can play perfectly well just by doing what the cards say, and most of the time they'll get it right.  One of the primary goals Wizards has is to make the game accessible to new players by concealing the complexity from them until they're ready to handle it.  Printing complex cards at higher rarities is one way they achieve that.


No, I am saying his data is completely wrong, though I could see where it sounded like that. They might have had a sample size that was too small. Or they may have just asked straight up idiots and not your average joe. Yes, Maro is in his own little world. He has consistantly made false, misleading, and sometimes flat out wrong statements.

No they can't. I can't even begin to convcieve how many times I have played with people that don't understand the rule and found that they were having botched games due to misinterpritations. Or games in which one card is highly overpowered (using thier misinterpreted rules) due to lack of comprehension of rules.

No, that won't do it at all. In a playgroup of three people, and with fireball at uncommon, how long do you think it will take for one of them to pull fireball and use it?

Simply put, what it comes down to is...

If you are older than 14 and can not comprehend Heat Ray then you are really stupid. You don't need to be playing magic in the first place.

You can play this "we are tryign to make it more comprehendable" game all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of X spells are very easily comprehended by anyone with a brain that has graduated middle school.






Hahahahahaha you are really really really dense Smile
I'm not even going to try to say everything that has been said to you in an even easier way

EDIT: ok fine maybe you want to read this: False Consensus Effect
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_ef...

As an extension, when confronted with evidence that a consensus does not exist, people often assume that the others who do not agree with them are defective in some way.



Laughing
Not sure why we're complaining about the X spell comment.. the card got printed, right?
And it's not like Wizards stopped making X spells.. they just normally put them at uncommon or rare.  

We still have cards like Gelatinous Genesis, or Comet Storm from the last set, which ARE pretty tough to evaluate vs. other cards.  At what mana level are these cards good?  Imagine having to do these kinds of evaluations for the first time, during a draft..

The difficulty of X spells isn't in how to play them.. it's in card evaluation and deck construction.  Where do these cards belong in your "curve"?
I don't care how much data they have...


In other words, you don't care about reality, you just want to have your already-formed opinion validated.  It really is you who is stuck in your own little world, not MaRo.

There are many aspects to the game that are more confusing than X spells - and many players are confused by them as well.  What you've failed to grasp is that many of those aspects don't need to be understood by novice players.  They can play perfectly well just by doing what the cards say, and most of the time they'll get it right.  One of the primary goals Wizards has is to make the game accessible to new players by concealing the complexity from them until they're ready to handle it.  Printing complex cards at higher rarities is one way they achieve that.


No, I am saying his data is completely wrong, though I could see where it sounded like that. They might have had a sample size that was too small. Or they may have just asked straight up idiots and not your average joe. Yes, Maro is in his own little world. He has consistantly made false, misleading, and sometimes flat out wrong statements.

No they can't. I can't even begin to convcieve how many times I have played with people that don't understand the rule and found that they were having botched games due to misinterpritations. Or games in which one card is highly overpowered (using thier misinterpreted rules) due to lack of comprehension of rules.

No, that won't do it at all. In a playgroup of three people, and with fireball at uncommon, how long do you think it will take for one of them to pull fireball and use it?

Simply put, what it comes down to is...

If you are older than 14 and can not comprehend Heat Ray then you are really stupid. You don't need to be playing magic in the first place.

You can play this "we are tryign to make it more comprehendable" game all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of X spells are very easily comprehended by anyone with a brain that has graduated middle school.






Hahahahahaha you are really really really dense Smile
I'm not even going to try to say everything that has been said to you in an even easier way

EDIT: ok fine maybe you want to read this: False Consensus Effect
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_ef...

As an extension, when confronted with evidence that a consensus does not exist, people often assume that the others who do not agree with them are defective in some way.



Laughing

Troll alert.

Maybe I am projecting. Maybe I am projecting because I have faith in humanity that its not so stupid as to not understand statements such as....

"Choose a number for X where X is < or = to the number of resources you have."

Well you would have to be defective not to understand the majority of X spells.

You'll notice that in Rise of the Eldrazi bounce (cards that put permanents back into their owner's hands) are light both in quantity and in quality. The reason for this is that the set is all about getting giant creature onto the battlefield. Plentiful and cheap bounce spells makes such an environment hard to build, so by necessity we excised most of it from the set.

Wise decision, but I do like that you left at least one well-balanced common for people to realize the power of bounce in this format. Between the Eldrazi, which are most often cast thanks to Spawn sacrificing the first time around and can't be re-cast immediatly if bounced, to levelers, to Totem Armor auras enchanted creatures, bounce is several times better in this environment than in any other format.

Regress is an interesting choice as compared to Boomerang; it is splashable, and good players will get rewarded by recognizing that it is one of the set's best commons and splash it in their Limited decks. From an other point of view, one could say that Boomerang would have been the better choice as only real blue decks would have been able to use its power. Well, either way, as long as it's not Unsummon, which would be busted in RoE limited, I'm fine with it.
(about Heat Ray)The design team put this repeat in at common because it matched their goal of removal that was good but worse at destroying larger creatures. The card was so beloved by so many on the design and development teams that it stayed at common even though it was an X Mana spell.

Worse at destroying larger creatures? What are you talking about? It's at least much better at destroying larger creatures than almost any burn spell that deals a set amount of damage. True, it costs a lot of mana to do it, but if you kill a fatty with it, that fatty most likely costed a lot of mana too,  and the mere fact that it is possible gives red a very welcome answer to Eldrazi at common, and I'm pretty sure that's in great part why R&D loved it so much. Being an instant also makes it great for responding to leveling up and auras. The card really is a perfect fit for the format and I am very glad that it was kept at common, despite the complexity issues it has.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
Well, either way, as long as it's not Unsummon, which would be busted in RoE limited, I'm fine with it.

Not really.
Most of the Eladrazi do funky stuff just from casting them.  A bounce spell just means the funk happens twice.
[On the article: I'd been hoping for a mention of why Glory Seeker and Knight of Cliffhaven are both in the set, but ah well.



Apparently they are blending the purposes of the Core Set vs Advanced Sets - now both contain new cards and both contain within themselves cards that people can "learn" the game with. Oh, look, *this* card is clearly superior to *that* card despite being essentially the same thing. I should replace those cards with copies of this in my deck to make it better.

Once upon a time the packaging for block sets stated on it that they were recommended for Advanced players, and the core sets had packaging and inserts indicating that they were for beginners. Apparently they have abandoned this approach and the Core Set is just the fourth set in a block with a higher occurance of reprints.
EDIT: ok fine maybe you want to read this: False Consensus Effect
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_ef...

As an extension, when confronted with evidence that a consensus does not exist, people often assume that the others who do not agree with them are defective in some way.






Maybe I am projecting. Maybe I am projecting because I have faith in humanity that its not so stupid as to not understand statements such as....

"Choose a number for X where X is < or = to the number of resources you have."

Well you would have to be defective not to understand the majority of X spells.




Re: False Consensus... LOL good one.

Re: Understanding X Spells

The Decline of Western Civilization is well on its way. Sorry.

There are entire generations of Americans (Gen X and Y, and most likely their children) who commonly fail to name all 50 states or pick out commonly known European countries on a globe. Who can't do math in their heads and who have no concept of history beyond Y2K, who have no knowledge of current events beyond what (insert Teenage Starlet of the Week) is doing and with whom.

It is not at all surprising that a significant minority of Magic players are confused by cards in which there is a variable effect or specific decisions to make beyond choosing targets. Just browse these forums for questions about deckbuilding and card interactions and rulings. Most such questions could be answered without posting by looking up the rulings in Gatherer but people ask anyway. Or build and play decks based on mistaken assumptions, like building a Death's Shadow/Ad Nauseum deck with Abyssal Persecutor and using it to go to -7 life then attack for the win.
Interesting conversation. Undecided



I can see exactly where HippySpec's perspective is coming from. I personally think that it is rather sad that it appears that individuals who first start playing Magic somehow are considered to be less intelligent than the average human being. The fact that variables is an undeniably common part of every highschool curriculum, at even the most basic level, should be more than sufficent. If there is still a problem, wouldn't a short reminder text solve it immediately? (ex. Choose a Number. "X" is that number). Oh, look! Instant comprehension of the card and its ability without some form of ridiculous design reasoning...


Similarly, those of you who are relying on market data should realize that said data is extremely unflexible and narrow. Any sort of statistic can be manipulated or misunderstood and intervening and/or abscent variables is always a possibility. Before lending your voice in support of "market data" you might want to first observe that data for yourself instead of just blindly assuming it is valid. "Statistics show..." is probably one of the most common ways of getting people to absentmindedly jump on your "band-wagon."

Toby: Not only are you unmeritably using "False Consensus Effect" (which =/= uncompromising disagreement)... you also attempted to arrogantly reference it using wikipedia... which diminshes the credibility of your knowledge and only exemplifies your unneccesary douchebaggery, to say the least.

It would be nice to appreciate the constructive elements people point out instead of excessively nitpicking them...

...Kthx.

---

Dear Mark

How about an article on why you design rarity=power now.

Thanks

HWM


Seconded. I believe that this is an entirely relevant DESIGN problem for the DESIGN column.
if you are going to tell me that levelers are less complicated than X spells then I am going to laugh at you. Even protection, regeneration, and persist, are more complicated than X spells. These are all abilities that I've had to explain over and over again but at most I've explained X to someone one time . fireball is needlessly complicated but most X spells are very easy to understand. Plus as others have mentioned the difference between uncommon and common only affects players in limited. In constructed you'll see a higher concentration of good spells so fireball will be much more common than shock even in casual constructed decks.

I have taught 20+ people how to play and not one of them has had a problem with X spells. My 10 year old daughter who can not get the hang of tideforce elemental, and when to kick her multikicker spells knows how to cast blaze and consume spirit just fine. She had some trouble with gelatinous genesis (she understood it when I explained it to her though) but no trouble with conflagrate or martial coup.

Like others have mentioned I am very skeptical about this "market reasearch". How are they quizzing these people who don't visit the webpage (most who do will quickly learn the rules), and don't attend tournaments (once again someone will inform them of the proper way to play X spells). I know they used to put survey's into fat packs and maybe it's research from those surveys I don't know but like I said I am in disbelief that anyone could think that Level counters are less complicated than X spells.
Don't be too smart to have fun
I've also never had an issue teaching players to play X spells.  My little brother first started playing back when he was about 5 (but he started understanding a lot better at 7), and when he was 7, he was casting Blaze with no issues.  Sure, we probably explained it to him once, but he understood it.  Same with everybody else I've taught the game to.

I'm not calling anybody a liar, but I guess I never thought X spells were that confusing, and I've never found any beginners to feel the same way.  I would say that Regeneration is a lot more confusing than X spells.
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