U/W Control

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I'll be putting up a basic description of the deck soon.

Lands/Mana Sources


Celestial Colonnade - Dual land and alternate win condition/blocker in a pinch. 4-of
Glacial Fortress - Often just a straight-up Tundra (though it can't be fetched). 4-of
Blue Fetches Power up Jace & Halimar Depths. Optional.
White Fetches
Halimar Depths - Amazing synergy with Treasure Hunt, good with Jace & fetches. 2+
Tectonic Edge - Great solution for manlands, to mana screw Jund or control, etc. Taps for mana, too! Optional, recommended 2+
Island, Plains - The basic stuff
Everflowing Chalice - Much-needed mana ramp for X spells, and makes for t3 Jace, etc.


Warning: Contains RotE spoilers

Defense

Oblivion Ring - Takes out any troublesome permanent. 2-3 of
Path to Exile - Kept to a minimum because of resulting mana ramp & dissynergy with Tectonic edge. Optional, max 2.
Martial Coup - Clears the board & puts an army out there, or provides some blockers if needed. 2+
Day of Judgement - Wrath of God. 3-of
Cancel - Clunky, but effective at what it does. 3-4 of
Negate - With plenty of removal, this helps deal with troublesome spells/planeswalkers. Optional, recommended 2+
Essence Scatter - Effective, but narrow answer. Optional.
Flashfreeze - Considering the metagame of Naya, Jund, and RDW, a worthy MD inclusion. Not too shabby against Bant, either. Optional, necessary in SB at least.
Wall of Denial - Insane blocker, amazing vs RDW, but can be a dead draw. Optional

Wall of Omens - A wall of blossoms for white, coming in Rise of the Eldrazi. Looks fo be a staple 4-of in the future.


Card Draw/Selection

Halimar Depths - A land, and also some card filtering.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card/draw selection machine, capable of protecting himself/keeping the board under control, and able to control the top of the opponent's deck. 4-of, don't play the deck without him.

Treasure Hunt - Great card draw in combination with Halimar Depths and/or Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Without support, on average it draws about 1.75 cards.

Mind Spring - Card draw, not the greatest, but provides a fresh grip when you have the time & mana.


Win Conditions

Baneslayer Angel - Maindeck or sideboard, a monster that spells game over if it attacks. Optional MD, recommended in SB.

Iona, Shield of Emeria - Usually game over on its own if it hits the table, but expensive. Optional, max 1.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Hard to kill win condition that's also excellent at stalling. Optional, highly recommend 1-3.

Celestial Colonnade - Land that's also a win con. Run 4.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Yes, he can even use his ultimate to win the game. This guy is a machine, do not play any less than 4.


Sideboard

Kor Firewalker - A serious blow to RDW, and good against Jund as well. 3-4 of

Baneslayer Angel - Win con out of the sideboard, helps with going to time, and makes opponents keep otherwise dead removal in. Comes in for almost every matchup. 3-4 of between MD and SB.

Flashfreeze - Sick against Naya, Jund, and RDW. 4 between MD and sideboard.

Negate - Great for the control matchup. Optional

Other cards to be added


Top Decklists

Forum Denizens' Decklists

Lightning Link'serdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> List


// Lands
4 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
3 [M10] Glacial Fortress
3 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
5 [ALA] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ALA] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ROE] Wall of Omens
4 [M10] Baneslayer Angel
3 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid

// Spells
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [M10] Mind Spring
3 [CFX] Martial Coup
2 [ROE] Gideon Jura
3 [ARB] Fieldmist Borderpost

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
SB: 4 [M10] Celestial Purge
SB: 4 [M10] Negate
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 3 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle


gamegeek2's list

--- Mana Sources (29) ---
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Island
5 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Halimar Depths
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Everflowing Chalice

--- Win Conditions (8) ---
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Gideon Jura
2 Baneslayer Angel

--- Card Draw (6) ---
4 See Beyond
2 Mind Spring
 
--- Control Elements (17)
4 Wall of Omens
3 Day of Judgement
2 Martial Coup
2 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Negate/Cancel



Don't you think you should of posted the two current UW decks? Permission and Tap-out before posting where you think it would go? I don't think i've ever seen UW control run Tec Edges, I may be wrong there though.
Bringing the Rock to Standard. One post at a time.
Don't you think you should of posted the two current UW decks? Permission and Tap-out before posting where you think it would go? I don't think i've ever seen UW control run Tec Edges, I may be wrong there though.


You're wrong there
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Link for Patrick Chapins' UW Control(primer like)
magicgameplan.com/blog/uw-control-chapin...

Decklist for UW Tap-Out Control
www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34511

And they both run Tec Edges, my bad.. First time i've actually seen a DL.
Bringing the Rock to Standard. One post at a time.
This is my current post-ROE tap-out version:

Show

// Lands
4 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
4 [M10] Glacial Fortress
3 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
7 [ALA] Plains (4)
4 [ALA] Island (4)
3 [WWK] Halimar Depths

// Creatures
4 [M10] Baneslayer Angel
4 [ROE] Wall of Omens
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
4 [M10] Mind Spring
4 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 4 [M10] Negate
SB: 3 [M10] Celestial Purge
SB: 4 [M10] Flashfreeze
SB: 2 [M10] Mind Control 


This is a fun and great deck. Thanks, gamegeek.
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Don't you think you should of posted the two current UW decks? Permission and Tap-out before posting where you think it would go? I don't think i've ever seen UW control run Tec Edges, I may be wrong there though.



I included all the relevant card choices for these 2 strategies, so I think it's fine.

Can you guys go about gathering some decklists? I'll also post some of yours, and mine'll be up soon.

EDIT: updated with the chapin list and lightning link's list
The links are chopped and screwed for Chapins' build.
Bringing the Rock to Standard. One post at a time.
I know, when I have time I'll make it neat.
People's thoughts on Gideon in here?
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People's thoughts on Gideon in here?



Yes, if you like winning, play Gideon.
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If you like winning, play Jund =P.

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Here's a UW Control deck that I'm testing for post-ROE:

Show

Lands: 23
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Halimar Depths
5 Island
4 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge

Creatures: 9
4 Baneslayer Angel
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sea Gate Oracle

Other Spells: 28
3 Day of Judgment
4 Deprive
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3 Essence Scatter
4 Everflowing Chalice
1 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Martial Coup
2 Mind Spring
1 Negate
1 Recurring Insight
1 Shared Discovery
1 Unified Will

I'm giving Deprive a try. I noticed that it combos with Halimar Depths, so I only put 2 of those in because I can keep spamming them.

I know it seems like I have a lot of random 1-ofs, but the combination of Halimar Depths and Sea Gate Oracle should allow me to consistently draw them.

There are a lot of things that I wanna playtest from ROE, like Recurring Insight, Unified Will, Shared Discovery, and Kozilek. Of course, Unified Will and Shared Discovery are really only good when used with Martial Coup, so that's why there are only one of each in there.

I've done a little bit of playtesting, and I've gotten 7 cards off Recurring Insight with the Rebound, and I've been consistently able to successfully cast Unified Will and Shared Discovery.

Tell me what you think. Love it, or tear me a new one. =P
"If you like winning, play Jund =P" - S1AL. 

here is an idea, if you like posting on the Standard tourney forums, post things that are relavent to the thread, and when you do, back it up with some actual facts...


Moving on.

I have tried two versions of this deck, one focusing on the creature win con (mainly) and the other heavy control Jace win con focus with one baneslayer and one Iona just for back-up. I have to say both do extremely well. the Jace win-con has alot of trouble with goblin guide decks and similar, and is alot of fun to play against Jund and other green/white creature decks. The creature build is the opposite, having trouble with Jund but wrecking Goblin guide decks.

In my opinion (which means no more than anyone else's here) is that the heavy control version seems to be the better build. it is a bit more versital and seems to have less weaknesses.
On the Gideon Jura comment;
     I don't believe he is the best choice in this deck...Dont get me wrong, he is a great card. but there are things i'd rather see go into the build than try to make room for a card that has abilities that are sub-par compaired to cards we could run in the deck standard.

    +2 - all creatures attack GJ if able ; this is fine and all, but i'd rather just DoJ and be rid of them. Sure if you are looking at a baneslayer you get to kill it in two turns (if they dont O-ring), but they still get 5 life from the damage in exchange. If they are running mass creatures you might have bought a turn and killed ONE creature, but if you killed a creature with him then they are free to attack who they want next turn anyway.

    -2 - Destroy target tapped creature ; Once again...cool, but id rather just DoJ, PtE, or O-ring a big threat. and against a Goblin guide or Boros deck this ability kinda falls short imo.

     0 - 6/6 creature, prevent all damage ; woot, a slightly less effective baneslayer...doesnt fly, doesnt get me 5 life...

He has options is the only real case that can be made for him. i'd rather fill his slot with baneslayers or DoJs...he is a 1 of at the most.
Re-useable removal is always a strong choice in any format. GJ is a pretty awesome finisher and can also save you from a hoard of attackers or open up the field for the win. Yeah, i'd rather Path/O-Ring/DoJ also but, that options not always redly available and having a back-up plan is a good idea. I'd say an auto 2-of. 
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XIII13Thirteen,
     The build looks pretty solid. I was wondering about how your land base is working out? i run 28, and i found that to be the best number to work with the Halimar Depths/Treasure hunt, plus having the extra lands to activate Colonnade and still have lands left over. also makes chalice an auto 2 mana+. also, if you are running Kozilek, i think you can do without the coup. he is removal himself and he is waaaay too big a body to answer with creatures after a DoJ or Jura.
     like i said, it looks good, id just drop a few cards to get a couple more lands in there personally.
13: 1 Iona seems a lot better then 1 Butcher of Truth.
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i agree with you Lightning, but he might not have access to an Iona.
I was just playing with the idea of Butcher in the deck as anything short of Path or Ring can't keep him out of the game. I have a Iona available to put in if need be. You guys are probably right in that she is the better choice.

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I have seen this deck.  As a UWR player I had no problems playing against it.  I don't know if it was the people playing it or what.  Is this deck better or worse or about the same with more stable mana.  I know with UWR (I run 8 MD counter) my biggest problem is bant and I am working on it.  My SB has alot of the same cards you are running because of RDW.  Was thinking about making a switch to the control version of this to open up some red cards for other decks my kids play.  All opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Well, WU is "harder" to run, but has some advantages.

The Pros:

Everflowing Chalice: Since you are not going 3 color you can fit in Chalice. While you can still run Chalice in 3 color it doesn't fit as well and causes you to cut other cards that you are running. Chalice ramps you ahead of the other player in the early game. This let's them get Jace out before you are able to. It generally places them ahead of where you are on the mana curve throughout the game. This makes it harder for you to win counter wars. Several "big effects" can take over the game.

WU draws more cards: This is tied into Chalice some (aka. Mind Spring), but is more heavily aimed at Treasure Hunt. While WUR can like WU run it, the performance is less optimal for the typical build. It also makes WU strong against discard strategies like Blighting. Usually you don't care to get hit with Blighting.

Tectonic Edge: WUR can't stretch the mana for Tectonic as well. Some will say they don't have problems, but the minute I try to I can't find a color I need to save my life.

No problems with WW in casting cost: I've noticed the 3 color combination makes WW hard to hit early. This causes cards like Kor Firewalker. To not run optimal when sided in against speed decks.

The Cons:

WUR is more proactive: WU is a more difficult deck to play as you have to survive in a speedy meta and even than you can be low on life and unable to win if they can just burn you out the reminder of the way. WUR is quicker to win. This causes a speedy recovery and less draws when going to 3 games in a match. Access to Lightning Bolt helps against speed strategies and it is mainboarded.

Ajani Vengeant: He is the biggest incentive to run WUR in my opinion. He has to be countered or Ring'd.

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Well, WU is "harder" to run, but has some advantages.

The Pros:

Everflowing Chalice: Since you are not going 3 color you can fit in Chalice. While you can still run Chalice in 3 color it doesn't fit as well and causes you to cut other cards that you are running. Chalice ramps you ahead of the other player in the early game. This let's them get Jace out before you are able to. It generally places them ahead of where you are on the mana curve throughout the game. This makes it harder for you to win counter wars. Several "big effects" can take over the game.

WU draws more cards: This is tied into Chalice some (aka. Mind Spring), but is more heavily aimed at Treasure Hunt. While WUR can like WU run it, the performance is less optimal for the typical build. It also makes WU strong against discard strategies like Blighting. Usually you don't care to get hit with Blighting.

Tectonic Edge: WUR can't stretch the mana for Tectonic as well. Some will say they don't have problems, but the minute I try to I can't find a color I need to save my life.

No problems with WW in casting cost: I've noticed the 3 color combination makes WW hard to hit early. This causes cards like Kor Firewalker. To not run optimal when sided in against speed decks.

The Cons:

WUR is more proactive: WU is a more difficult deck to play as you have to survive in a speedy meta and even than you can be low on life and unable to win if they can just burn you out the reminder of the way. WUR is quicker to win. This causes a speedy recovery and less draws when going to 3 games in a match. Access to Lightning Bolt helps against speed strategies and it is mainboarded.

Ajani Vengeant: He is the biggest incentive to run WUR in my opinion. He has to be countered or Ring'd.



Thanks for your help.  They both looked good, I wanted to play Ajani.  UWR rocks, however it is sucking up cards that can be in other decks.  As for the harder to play, I was playing the control version of UWR with Judgement over the earthquake version.  I shouldn't have a problem converting.  Thanks again for the help.

EDIT
Just wondering why no spreading seas or doesn't this need it.


Thanks for your help.  They both looked good, I wanted to play Ajani.  UWR rocks, however it is sucking up cards that can be in other decks.  As for the harder to play, I was playing the control version of UWR with Judgement over the earthquake version.  I shouldn't have a problem converting.  Thanks again for the help.

EDIT
Just wondering why no spreading seas or doesn't this need it.



I'd love to fit it in, but it is competing for space in the MD. At current WU's biggest problem is speedy strategies. In this place Wall of Omens typically works better. Tectonic is a good way to sort of trade off here and you don't have to commit a "spell slot" to it. Throwing away your land is less of a problem as your deck is less color sensitive and you have tempo support from the Chalices. Many times Path to Exile can undo your attempt to mana screw the other player with Spreading Seas. I do think Spreading is a great card, but its just at current I think Wall of Omens is safer. I'm also in a testing mode with this deck, so that might turn out to not be the case, but on the surface it looks like the right choice.

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I am still debating what I am gonna play.  I dont get my new cards to next week so I am stuck pre eldrazi.  I card that I have fallin in love with and think it should start seeing some play is Mind Break Trap for all the uncounterable crap running around.  I am bored with UWR but it has served me so well.  I have always played some form of blue control.  This looks like it is right up my ally.  What exactly do you side out for what kind of deck.

Here's an updated version from my earlier post.

Show
Lands: 23
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Halimar Depths
6 Island
4 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge

Creatures: 10
4 Baneslayer Angel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Wall of Omens

Other Spells: 27
3 Day of Judgment
4 Deprive
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3 Essence Scatter
4 Everflowing Chalice
1 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Martial Coup
2 Mind Spring
1 Negate
2 Treasure Hunt

I'm still playing with Deprive. I really like the synergy that it has with Halimar Depths. However, I feel like some of my ratios are pretty awkward.
 "What exactly do you side out for what kind of deck?"

         I play the heavy controll version of this deck (one baneslayer, one Iona), so i have ALOT of control to begin with. Your sideboard is going to consist of cards that will help you with your current meta. In my meta, there is alot of Boros and Goblin Guide decks going around so my SB selection is heavy for going against these decks. But metas aside, my version of this deck has alot of trouble with Goblin Guide decks and Jund can be iffy. So against Jund you could sideboard in cards like "Flashfreeze" and "Essence Scatter". Where if you play against RDW or Goblin Guide, board in some "Negate", "Flashfreeze", and maybe some Lightmine Field.
        A bit long, but i hope this answered your question.
Speed decks (RDW, Boros et al) don't care in the least about Wall of Omens. A typical exchange looks like this:

Them: Mountain, Goblin Guide, swing for two.
You: Land
Them: Mountain, Hellspark, swing for five.
You: Land, Wall of Omens
Them: Mountain, unearth, swing again.

In this situation, a burst lightning or LB takes care of your wall, and without a consistent three-drop, you relegate yourself to a beatdown.

If you're going to play UW control, you're going to have to accept the fact that speed decks will bleed you dry. In other words, take an autoloss against RDW and Boros in order to maximize your chances against Jund, Naya and Bant. Looking at tournament reports, you'll notice that many of the UW decks that have experienced any sort of success have done the same.

Now, on to your decklist:


Lands: 23
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Halimar Depths
6 Island
4 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge




+2 Halimar Depths
+1 Island
+1 Plains

-4 Tectonic Edge


Typical strategy involves a second-turn Chalice into a third-turn Wrath (If necessary) or Jace. This means you get one CITP land on turn 1, and another on turn 4. As such, you want the split between your CITP lands and your basics to be about even.

By using Halimars, you give yourself an opportunity to Treasure Hunt on that fifth turn, as well as iron out some consistency issues with your initial draw. I think you'll find that by playing 3 Halimars, you're going to have to mulligan a few times less per hundred - a welcome sight for any deck.


Creatures: 10
4 Baneslayer Angel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Wall of Omens



-1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-2 Sea Gate Oracle
-3 Wall of Omens

+2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

I know everyone loves Iona, but if it's me, I'd rather have a Sphinx of Jwar Isle any day of the week. Shroud in this environment is pure beats. You can save the other 4 deck slots for more spells, which are the backbone of any UW deck.

Other Spells: 27
3 Day of Judgment
4 Deprive
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3 Essence Scatter
4 Everflowing Chalice
1 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Martial Coup
2 Mind Spring
1 Negate
2 Treasure Hunt


-3 Essence Scatter
-2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-1 Gideon Jura
-2 Martial Coup

+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 Treasure Hunt
+1 Day of Judgment
+3 Negate
+4 Path to Exile


Countering creature spells doesn't win you games. If you maindeck 4x Wrath and 4x Path to Exile, you open up the deck slots those counters use for more integral pieces. I know, I know - everyone's thinking "but ZOMG they might rock me with teh baneslayer angles!!" Which is true. However, you're the one playing with all the card draw, as well as Sphinxes. Your goal isn't to worry about their threats so much as it is to force their hand in playing all of them out. And in addition to that, 2 of the 3 top decks that can run baneslayer angels can also run Great Sable Stags, which effectively neuter your creature counters anyway. With this build, you've got 4 Wraths, 4 Paths, and two O-Rings. If you can't stop an angel with that + superior card draw, then you deserve to lose.

Countering spells and Planeswalkers, on the other hand, will definitely win you games. Bump it up to 4 Negates.

I've left the Deprives in, but those are probably the next card on the cutting block. Cancel isn't a clear-cut alternative, but if you find a non-counter that suits the deck better, you should probably use it.

At any rate, remember that you're a CONTROL deck. It's not your job to dictate the pace of play. Rather, your job is to control any and every threat that your opponent throws at you, and once you've established board control, win however you can. With only 6 creatures and 3 Jaces, you'll need to be creative at times. However, this version of the deck will provide you with many more opportunities to be successful - the rest is up to your playskill.
this thread is long overdue, i wanted to post lists somewhere, but obviously there wasn't any place.

bear in mind, my list is still pre-Rise, as i play online and obviously its not been released yet.

Lands:
4 - Glacial Fortress
4 - Celestial Colonnade
3 - Sejiri Refuge
6 - Island
6 - Plains
4 - Tectonic Edge
27 Lands

Creatures:
3 - Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Creatures

Other Spells:
4 - Cancel
3 - Essence Scatter
2 - Negate
4 - Path to Exile
2 - Oblivion Ring
4 - Day of Judgment
2 - Martial Coup
3 - Mind Spring
2 - Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 - Spreading Seas
30 Other Spells

Sideboard:
2 - Celestial Purge
3 - Baneslayer Angel
3 - Archive Trap
2 - Negate
3 - Flashfreeze
1 - Martial Coup
1 - Oblivion Ring


things to note:
1. yes, i know only 2 jace.  i would be more, but college is expensive.  besides, its usually been enough.

2. no everflowing chalice.  its a great card and all, just like signets and mind stone, but i have a personal preference to play a more counterspell oriented build, and the chalices were getting in the way.  by bumping the list up to 27 lands, i'm usually able to draw the lands as i need them, mind springing for those i'm missing.

3. sejiri refuge.  i've really enjoyed the added color fixing these provide alongside the other 8 duals.  randomly, the lifegain helps i guess.

4. archive trap in the board.  since i'm playing in a pre-Rise environment, and i guess assuming eldrazi don't take off in control builds, these things are just so amazing in the mirror match and for other control decks.  basically, i more or less take their wraths and removal out of the picture, for an instant speed win con that begs countermagic or they lose.  since most lists seem to opt out of using countermagic, i find myself at an advantage here.

i think everthing else is fairly obvious, but so far i'm running this to great success, both against jund and the mirror, along with a majority of the rest of the field.

always open to comments, criticism, or whatever

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Speed decks (RDW, Boros et al) don't care in the least about Wall of Omens. A typical exchange looks like this:

Them: Mountain, Goblin Guide, swing for two.
You: Land
Them: Mountain, Hellspark, swing for five.
You: Land, Wall of Omens
Them: Mountain, unearth, swing again.

In this situation, a burst lightning or LB takes care of your wall, and without a consistent three-drop, you relegate yourself to a beatdown.



Wall improves your chances. If they are throwing spells at the Wall they aren't throwing them at you and you're slowing them down. Post board you bring in a bunch of Firewalkers and Purge. Really RDW almost has to scoop to that. If they are running a black splash they have to throw their sided removal in at the Firewalkers. This gives you time to land a Baneslayer, which is pretty much worse for them. Omens also works well against Jund. My explaination weighed Wall against Spreading Seas and I think it is a sound example as Spreading does nothing really to help against RDW.

RDW has always been a one trick pony in my opinion. You either win early or lose later. Granted it has mown me down many a time and I respect it. I have to say I am starting to endorse Baneslayer in the main for reasons like those mentioned. A single unmolested Baneslayer will completely move the game around. Like Tarmogoyf (barring the mana cost,) it has to be addressed. Granted they have 500 billion ways to do that it is still in their court. They can't even attack into you with her out unless they can swing for more than about 10 damage and that is if you are about dead anyway.

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>


Wall improves your chances. If they are throwing spells at the Wall they aren't throwing them at you and you're slowing them down. Post board you bring in a bunch of Firewalkers and Purge. Really RDW almost has to scoop to that. If they are running a black splash they have to throw their sided removal in at the Firewalkers. This gives you time to land a Baneslayer, which is pretty much worse for them. Omens also works well against Jund. My explaination weighed Wall against Spreading Seas and I think it is a sound example as Spreading does nothing really to help against RDW.

RDW has always been a one trick pony in my opinion. You either win early or lose later. Granted it has mown me down many a time and I respect it. I have to say I am starting to endorse Baneslayer in the main for reasons like those mentioned. A single unmolested Baneslayer will completely move the game around. Like Tarmogoyf (barring the mana cost,) it has to be addressed. Granted they have 500 billion ways to do that it is still in their court. They can't even attack into you with her out unless they can swing for more than about 10 damage and that is if you are about dead anyway.




In the example that I highlighted, your wall stops one attack from one creature, and absorbs one burn spell. If you assume that to be a crippling disadvantage to RDW or boros, then I would suspect that your metagame doesn't have very competitive speed decks, and I would encourage you to play an effective speed deck to take advantage of that disparity.

One attack, one creature, or even one spell does not make or break a speed deck like RDW or Boros - rather, those decks thrive on establishing an early advantage and ending the game before you as a control deck can catch up and dictate the pace of the game. Try to look at the situation with that particular outlook and it will help you to only choose the cards for your deck which will most efficiently accomplish control of the board. As Olle Rade once quipped: "Life doesn't matter - board control matters."

However, if you feel that Kor Firewalker gives you such a distinct advantage against Boros or RDW, then why not simply maindeck four of those and toss the walls? WW versus 1W seems like a small price to pay for what would be a better creature than walls against approximately 80% of the environment (RDW pre-sideboard, as well as 50% of Boros, and 33% of Jund). If nothing else, that's something you should definitely consider.
I dont exactly agree with you NickCiufi. you make some valid points, but at the same time i don't understand some of the points you are making on what cards he should swap.

First off, i have NEVER seen a UW build that uses 4 Path to Exiles... There are better cards to put in over this, especially when you are running Tectonic Edge. Between O-Rings, Counters, and DoJs you do not need 4. In my opinion go down to 1-2.

"-2 Martial Coup" - I dont agree with this at all. Coup is another wipe, INSANE synergy with Chalice, and is a possible win con. keep it.

You talk about beating Boros and aggro decks, but then you take out essence scatter and add negate? When i lose to Boros and friends, its because of creatures, not Planeswalkers. 1-2 negates and 1-2 essence is a good idea -IMO-.

I havent got alot of chance to test with Wall of Omens, but in my expierence playing this deck, when playing against aggro sucking up one burn spell into my wall and buying a turn and one extra card can land me my DoJ or Coup to turn the game around. Like you quoted earlier, life is a moot point as long as you can control the board. and we are much better after a wipe then any aggro deck.

Now i do agree with you than the deck needs to auto 3-4 halimars. i also dont think there is room in this deck for elspeth. Sphinx is good, but only if you cant afford the baneslayers.

My version of this deck runs 28 lands, with only 2 creatures. i am happy to say it plays wonderfully. I dont see the point of running so many creatures when we have 8 cards that act as win-cons staple's in before creatures (4/4 flaying vigilance is often a forgot about threat until it hits them in the face =P)

In the example that I highlighted, your wall stops one attack from one creature, and absorbs one burn spell. If you assume that to be a crippling disadvantage to RDW or boros, then I would suspect that your metagame doesn't have very competitive speed decks, and I would encourage you to play an effective speed deck to take advantage of that disparity.



Actually my meta his very good players in it. Players' DCI typically rank in the 1700-1800 area with a few high 1900's and 1-3 2000 level players. Granted DCI numbers are sort of arbitrary and not an absolute means to gauge skill, they are a good indicator. One creature and one spell is notable to a deck with a very straightline plan and attempting to kill you as fast as possible. If they can not kill you in that time than likely you can win through sheer card advantage and better creatures. It's sort of

land
creature
land
creature
burn
burn
land
creature

Are you dead yet?

No, well let's hope I can top deck or Unearth myself to victory the rest of the way. Again, you are sort of ignoring the fact that my remarks were comparing Spreading Seas to Wall of Omens and not an analysis of the WU to RDW matchup. Wall of Omens also isn't there just for RDW. It is there to address many aggressive strategies. The first round against RDW is difficult, but hardly impossible. After the sideboard it becomes much more favorable.


One attack, one creature, or even one spell does not make or break a speed deck like RDW or Boros - rather, those decks thrive on establishing an early advantage and ending the game before you as a control deck can catch up and dictate the pace of the game. Try to look at the situation with that particular outlook and it will help you to only choose the cards for your deck which will most efficiently accomplish control of the board. As Olle Rade once quipped: "Life doesn't matter - board control matters."



RDW and WU have a very different approach in their attempt to beat the other player. To point out RDW's strategy is a bit insulting, as I imagine you are assuming I have no idea what the deck is trying to do. Looking at the deck from the viewpoint you are mentioning is exactly how I am evaluating strategies against it.


However, if you feel that Kor Firewalker gives you such a distinct advantage against Boros or RDW, then why not simply maindeck four of those and toss the walls? WW versus 1W seems like a small price to pay for what would be a better creature than walls against approximately 80% of the environment (RDW pre-sideboard, as well as 50% of Boros, and 33% of Jund). If nothing else, that's something you should definitely consider.



Well, RDW and Boros are not the only decks in the meta to worry about. I'm actually a bit more concerned with Jund (aka the deck drawing/cascading cards with a more efficient removal suite.) There are also decks like Vampires in the meta that Kor is very much useless against. Wall of Omens also cantrips making it a sort of "free ability" that makes the card seldom a dead draw. If my single goal at FNM were to beat RDW or speed decks I'd build some mono white deck and be through with it.

In a vacuum or an ideal draw situation it is easy to create an example or try to point out the hopelessness of certain play situations, but things of course do not always play out that way and are often the exception.

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First, I use 4 Path of Exiles not because I intend to play four of them, but because I would like to draw two or three over the course of a game. 4x doesn't always indicate the quality of a card so much as the desire to draw it or multiples of it as quickly as possible. Now to the meat of the posts:


Actually my meta his very good players in it. Players' DCI typically rank in the 1700-1800 area with a few high 1900's and 1-3 2000 level players. Granted DCI numbers are sort of arbitrary and not an absolute means to gauge skill, they are a good indicator. One creature and one spell is notable to a deck with a very straightline plan and attempting to kill you as fast as possible. If they can not kill you in that time than likely you can win through sheer card advantage and better creatures. It's sort of

land
creature
land
creature
burn
burn
land
creature

Are you dead yet?

No, well let's hope I can top deck or Unearth myself to victory the rest of the way. Again, you are sort of ignoring the fact that my remarks were comparing Spreading Seas to Wall of Omens and not an analysis of the WU to RDW matchup. Wall of Omens also isn't there just for RDW. It is there to address many aggressive strategies. The first round against RDW is difficult, but hardly impossible. After the sideboard it becomes much more favorable.

You're correct in your assessment that a high rating doesn't make a good player. Arguing that case is tantamount to saying that being rich makes someone hard-working. I've never been one for Ad Verecundium arguments, and I don't give them much weight. Instead, perhaps we could agree to only assess other deck archetypes as they are posted on this particular board. That will allow us to theorize without "playing in a vacuum".

As a Boros player, I understand both variants of the speed kill deck inside and out. I understand what forms of threat they utilize, what forms of attrition you can expect to see, and most importantly I understand what works and what doesn't. You made the argument comparing Wall of Omens to Spreading Seas, but I never argued for SS. Instead, I argued that there are more efficient uses of deckspace than a 2-drop which is little more than cannonfodder and a cantrip, or a two-drop that does little more than deprive a blitz deck of one type of mana for one turn with a cantrip. I don't believe either to be efficient options for controlling the pace of a game.


RDW and WU have a very different approach in their attempt to beat the other player. To point out RDW's strategy is a bit insulting, as I imagine you are assuming I have no idea what the deck is trying to do. Looking at the deck from the viewpoint you are mentioning is exactly how I am evaluating strategies against it.



Fair enough. Sometimes its important to establish what kinds of RDW or Boros are being played in your area. There are many variants of these decks that sacrifice raw speed for more options. Testing against those is actually kind of futile, as those decks aren't of a realistic tournament speed. It's best to avoid a scenario where you think you're fast enough to compete with a deck, and then find that at a tournament, the "pure" versions of those decks have an extra gear that you didn't know about before. This is why I advocate a universal standard of each deck archetype when we discuss them individually and collectively.


Well, RDW and Boros are not the only decks in the meta to worry about. I'm actually a bit more concerned with Jund (aka the deck drawing/cascading cards with a more efficient removal suite.) There are also decks like Vampires in the meta that Kor is very much useless against. Wall of Omens also cantrips making it a sort of "free ability" that makes the card seldom a dead draw. If my single goal at FNM were to beat RDW or speed decks I'd build some mono white deck and be through with it.

In a vacuum or an ideal draw situation it is easy to create an example or try to point out the hopelessness of certain play situations, but things of course do not always play out that way and are often the exception.



Jund uses red cards as tools for removal as well. I actually was referring to Jund as being 33% annoyed with firewalker because they can't use Terminate or LB / BL against it. It's also good against Naya, which will typically comprise 1-10% of a tournament field.

In any case, your goal is to make your deck as viable against the field as humanly possible. A tournament field these days is appoximately 40-60% jund, 20-30% RDW, 10% Mythic Bant, and a bunch of insignificance for Boros, Naya, Vampires, Eldrazi Green et al. A creature that's great against somewhere between 70% and 90% of a field is probably worth considering, even if it's a Grizzly Bear against 10%-30% of the field.

I'm sure I've nitpicked enough about one particular card. I think you can peruse my earlier comments and get some ideas for the improvement of your control deck. I hope you find a mix that allows you to beat Jund without compromising the speed matchup.


I been learning all I can about U/W control and feel I have learned enough to construct my own and i got to say my results have been very good and its alot more fun to play than Jund(which I have done for about 6 months ) lol .This deck has been built from the cards I have available to me in my collection so dont expect to a baneslayer.It does however run the mind sculptor ,without him the deck would be garbage he is its heart after all. anyways here is the deck






3x jace the mind sculptor
1x Iona shield of emeria
2x sphinx of jwar isle

spells
4x everflowing chalice
3x twitch
2x mysteries of the deep
3x treasure hunt
1x mind spring
3x oblivion ring
3x days of judgement
3x negate
3x essence scatter
4x cancel

lands(right now these represent what i have right now but with the intention of getting another colonnade and fortress)

6x plains
10x islands
2x halimar depths
3x celestial colonnade
2x sejeri refuge(just til i get the other colonnade and fortress)
2x glacial fortress

sideboard
1x perimeter captain
2x spell pierce
2x luminarch ascension
2x pithing needle
2x celestial purge
1x oblivion ring
4x spreading seas
1x flash freeze


so how does it look
any thoughts?
 
Blue White CONTROL
I been learning all I can about U/W control and feel I have learned enough to construct my own and i got to say my results have been very good and its alot more fun to play than Jund(which I have done for about 6 months ) lol .This deck has been built from the cards I have available to me in my collection so dont expect to a baneslayer.It does however run the mind sculptor ,without him the deck would be garbage he is its heart after all. anyways here is the deck






3x jace the mind sculptor
1x Iona shield of emeria
2x sphinx of jwar isle

spells
4x everflowing chalice
3x twitch
2x mysteries of the deep
3x treasure hunt
1x mind spring
3x oblivion ring
3x days of judgement
3x negate
3x essence scatter
4x cancel

lands(right now these represent what i have right now but with the intention of getting another colonnade and fortress)

6x plains
10x islands
2x halimar depths
3x celestial colonnade
2x sejeri refuge(just til i get the other colonnade and fortress)
2x glacial fortress

sideboard
1x perimeter captain
2x spell pierce
2x luminarch ascension
2x pithing needle
2x celestial purge
1x oblivion ring
4x spreading seas
1x flash freeze


so how does it look
any thoughts?
 


Some cards are subpar.  For example, twitch and mysteries.  You should probably be running martial coups and more mind springs.
in the defense of the subpar cards everyone goes on complaining that control doesnt have draw ability at instant speed yet mysteries and twitch do a great job and both are instant!!! Now sure mysteries cost 5 but twitch it is actually a pretty good control spell think about it,its turn 3 and ur opponent is gonna swing with his 4/4 leech or better yet his broodmate on turn 5-6 i play twitch tap that creature and minimize the damage or eliminate it all together. that to me seems like im in control
but yea i do want one more mindspring and maybe 2 martial coups but i dont want to just net deck chapins list on anyone elses I want to do something slightly different slightly unique thats why i have no bankslayer angels lol I only got the 3 jace cause i bought a box and got 2 in one pack one was holo and then one in a wwk fatpack last night
but thanks for the feedback I do appreciate the advice anymore is welcomed
overall besides the 2 subpar instadraws does the deck seem like it stands a strong chance at a run at control?
Blue White CONTROL
in the defense of the subpar cards everyone goes on complaining that control doesnt have draw ability at instant speed yet mysteries and twitch do a great job and both are instant!!! Now sure mysteries cost 5 but twitch it is actually a pretty good control spell think about it,its turn 3 and ur opponent is gonna swing with his 4/4 leech or better yet his broodmate on turn 5-6 i play twitch tap that creature and minimize the damage or eliminate it all together. that to me seems like im in control
but yea i do want one more mindspring and maybe 2 martial coups but i dont want to just net deck chapins list on anyone elses I want to do something slightly different slightly unique thats why i have no bankslayer angels lol I only got the 3 jace cause i bought a box and got 2 in one pack one was holo and then one in a wwk fatpack last night
but thanks for the feedback I do appreciate the advice anymore is welcomed
overall besides the 2 subpar instadraws does the deck seem like it stands a strong chance at a run at control?


Twitch is pretty weak as far as cantrips go.  It's effect isn't even close to as good as fog, which is pretty subpar.  With treasure hunts, jaces, and mindsprings you should be fine on card advantage.  That said the deck looks good otherwise.
i agree with you Lightning, but he might not have access to an Iona.



"here is an idea, if you like posting on the Standard tourney forums, post things that are relavent to the thread, and when you do, back it up with some actual facts..."

--you

irony.

Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Honestly it angers me to see people fighting between what is in my opinion to be an invalid comparison. Firewalker vs Wall of Omens. They have their time and place. I personally use neither yet (talking about wall) because I use an all-star that is overlooked by a majority of the tournament scene. I have had players call my 2cmc "bear" sub-par and an easy kill. RDW players, Jund, and Boros all complain when it's on the board. I'm of course talking about deft duelist. Against many decks I see she does a huge workload. RDW or Boros need Earthquake to kill her. Jund needs either Jund Charm or hope I don't have 2 for the Leech. It's quite often that RDW opponents will scoop to her when I do find time to go out. She has her drawbacks, you cannot save her easily, she has a small ass, and she diminishes late in the game against any deck that plays increasing threats (so I think RDW is out, boros tends to be better at scaling but that's what removal is for.)

I won't champion her to you because most decks that make PT won't ever run her because of how people view her. But she has won many games for me as a beater against some decks. She won't do well against Wall of Omens.

I am in favor of the tap-out versions of this deck. They play smoother and win a boatload of games. I am not a fan of Treasure hunt. I have not been since it was spoiled. I know how to use it, and in my luck and stacking ability it's usually 5+ card draws. This is great for it's price, except for the fact it's 4+ lands and one actual card that my opponent sees. I've always done better fronting an unknown land or two. What your opponent doesn't know might save you. But I think in today's standard fronting a counter isn't that great against an opponent that doesn't know you well enough to know you play counters. So that point is pretty moot against most opponents that are just used to turning cards sideways.

I am glad this arch-type is rebounding and I think that soon it'll fully return. Depending on M11 it shouldn't loose much after the next rotate minus a second sweeper, instant speed point removal, and a general removal. Actually it seems like it's going to hurt a lot but we did get some good stuff for when that day comes in Rise.

I also don't think this will gain much more than the few cards that have been evaluated. I think Lightmine field could find a home here possibly but I doubt it will. Gideon Jura also looks promising but I think that would really do best in it's own type of control.
Honestly it angers me to see people fighting between what is in my opinion to be an invalid comparison. Firewalker vs Wall of Omens. They have their time and place. I personally use neither yet (talking about wall) because I use an all-star that is overlooked by a majority of the tournament scene. I have had players call my 2cmc "bear" sub-par and an easy kill. RDW players, Jund, and Boros all complain when it's on the board. I'm of course talking about deft duelist. Against many decks I see she does a huge workload. RDW or Boros need Earthquake to kill her. Jund needs either Jund Charm or hope I don't have 2 for the Leech. It's quite often that RDW opponents will scoop to her when I do find time to go out. She has her drawbacks, you cannot save her easily, she has a small ass, and she diminishes late in the game against any deck that plays increasing threats (so I think RDW is out, boros tends to be better at scaling but that's what removal is for.)

I won't champion her to you because most decks that make PT won't ever run her because of how people view her. But she has won many games for me as a beater against some decks. She won't do well against Wall of Omens.

I am in favor of the tap-out versions of this deck. They play smoother and win a boatload of games. I am not a fan of Treasure hunt. I have not been since it was spoiled. I know how to use it, and in my luck and stacking ability it's usually 5+ card draws. This is great for it's price, except for the fact it's 4+ lands and one actual card that my opponent sees. I've always done better fronting an unknown land or two. What your opponent doesn't know might save you. But I think in today's standard fronting a counter isn't that great against an opponent that doesn't know you well enough to know you play counters. So that point is pretty moot against most opponents that are just used to turning cards sideways.

I am glad this arch-type is rebounding and I think that soon it'll fully return. Depending on M11 it shouldn't loose much after the next rotate minus a second sweeper, instant speed point removal, and a general removal. Actually it seems like it's going to hurt a lot but we did get some good stuff for when that day comes in Rise.

I also don't think this will gain much more than the few cards that have been evaluated. I think Lightmine field could find a home here possibly but I doubt it will. Gideon Jura also looks promising but I think that would really do best in it's own type of control.


The land argument with treasure hunt is terrible.  Cards are cards.  The whole point is those are 4+ lands you would have been drawing eventually.  Imagine how much worse it is to be drawing 4 lands one per turn then just getting them all out of the way.
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