Tapping opponent's creature during opponents attack phase.

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Forgive my noobness!
My opponent has the card 'Flood'
 : Tap target creature without flying.
I entered my attack phase, said what creatures I was attacking with, and tapped the cards. My opponent gave it a few seconds and then used Flood to tap one of my attacking creatures (even though i had tapped it to attack.) My opponent did this to stop the creature from attacking him.
Was this a legal move? After i had tapped the card to attack him, surely its too late for him to tap it? Should he not have tapped it in my initial main phase?

it isn't possible to tap a tapped ceature, however, it is possible to tap a creature before it attacks in the beginning of combat step (or earlier like the main phase) so if you stopped and indicated that the combat phase has started, to give your opponent the option to use Flood and he doesn't and then you declare attackers, that's fine and legal (he was given the opportunity), however, if you don't stop and indicate that you're in the combat phase (as it seems from your example) and you move straight to declaring attackers (he wasn't given the opportunity), he can back you up and tap them down with Flood.

Moral of the story: you have to give him the option.

If it had played out this way...

I entered my attack phase by saying "combat phase", waited and he had no response, and said "Declaring attackers", paused a second and then said what creatures I was attacking with, and tapped the cards.

then his play wouldn't do what he wanted as they were legally declared as attackers and are already tapped and attacking.

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My opponent gave it a few seconds

This part of the original post makes me think the opponent is out of luck. If he was thinking about using flood, he should have immediately insisted that the game be backed up and the creatures untapped. By waiting a few moments before saying anything, he has probably allowed the game to proceed into the declare attackers step.
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My opponent gave it a few seconds

This part of the original post makes me think the opponent is out of luck. If he was thinking about using flood, he should have immediately insisted that the game be backed up and the creatures untapped. By waiting a few moments before saying anything, he has probably allowed the game to proceed into the declare attackers step.

this has to do with the opponent allowing the shortcut proposed by the OP, can we actually infer that his pause to think about whether he wants tap them down or not means that he has accepted the shortcut? Granted, it would be clearer if he said "wait a sec", but he hasn't responded to acknowledge or refuse the proposed shortcut to the Declare attackers step.

To be honest, neither player was communicating effectively.

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My opponent gave it a few seconds

This part of the original post makes me think the opponent is out of luck. If he was thinking about using flood, he should have immediately insisted that the game be backed up and the creatures untapped. By waiting a few moments before saying anything, he has probably allowed the game to proceed into the declare attackers step.

There is nothing in the rules about waiting a certain number of seconds.  Magic doesn't work that way.

Nobody declares every Beginning of Combat step, they only do so if there is a card like Flood on the table, or they know that their opponent has cards that can tap creatures.  By skipping right to Declaring Attackers, the threadstarter screwed up and gave his opponent too much information.  How long the opponent waits to make a decision doesn't matter AT ALL, and in no way indicates that he accepted the shortcut to the Declare Attackers step.

At the least it is good practice to get into the habbit of saying "Declare attack step, do you have any effects?" and prompt an answer, whether it is, hang on (think) or yes ... no ...
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really though, i mean if ur playing head to head with someone and they have a creature with the ability to tap another creature, or a card in hand that can do the same, they have so much time to tap a creature, i mean unless the op went from drawing a card to immidiately declaring attackers, theres really no excuse for not having enough time to tap a creature....also to the op, if he was waiting to see who you attacked with, then trying to tap that creature because he was the one u chose to attack with, thats not legal (happens in most cases i've witnessed concerning this topic)
really though, i mean if ur playing head to head with someone and they have a creature with the ability to tap another creature, or a card in hand that can do the same, they have so much time to tap a creature, i mean unless the op went from drawing a card to immidiately declaring attackers, theres really no excuse for not having enough time to tap a creature....also to the op, if he was waiting to see who you attacked with, then trying to tap that creature because he was the one u chose to attack with, thats not legal (happens in most cases i've witnessed concerning this topic)

No, this is not right.

The player who wants to tap an attacking creature can (and probably should) wait until he has priority in the beginning of combat step. That means his opponent has an obligation not to just blow through that step. If he does, the player can ask that the game be backed up. While there may be some disagreement in this thread about how quickly he needs to make that request, there is no controversy with the idea that he has the right to do that, no matter how much time has elapsed since the start of the active player's turn.
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so just to clarify because I had a similar question. So the opponent must tap the creatures before you declare attackers and after that its too late provided you gave them the time to respond before declaring.
really though, i mean if ur playing head to head with someone and they have a creature with the ability to tap another creature, or a card in hand that can do the same, they have so much time to tap a creature, i mean unless the op went from drawing a card to immidiately declaring attackers, theres really no excuse for not having enough time to tap a creature....also to the op, if he was waiting to see who you attacked with, then trying to tap that creature because he was the one u chose to attack with, thats not legal (happens in most cases i've witnessed concerning this topic)

No, this is not right.

The player who wants to tap an attacking creature can (and probably should) wait until he has priority in the beginning of combat step. That means his opponent has an obligation not to just blow through that step. If he does, the player can ask that the game be backed up. While there may be some disagreement in this thread about how quickly he needs to make that request, there is no controversy with the idea that he has the right to do that, no matter how much time has elapsed since the start of the active player's turn.



that could be easily abused though if the defending player has a card like backlash....I don't think its all that common to declare combat phase(maybe some disagree, I havent played with many different people so I cant really say) but an attacking player wouldn't know the defending player had this card in his hand so he probably wouldn't take the time to think- oh, maybe i should say entering combat phase, so he just attacks with whoever he wishes to attack with, meanwhile if what you say is right, the defending player (knowing that the attacking platyer wouldn't anounce start of combat) could just say he went to fast and that he needs to back up, thus knowing who the attacking player wants to attack with, and use backlash on that creature....I totally understand what your saying and it seems that being able to back up your opponent is the only way to go about the situation...but it still sucks that a situation like I just mentioned could happen, because it doesnt seem like declaring the start of phases is common practice
so just to clarify because I had a similar question. So the opponent must tap the creatures before you declare attackers and after that its too late provided you gave them the time to respond before declaring.


Correct.
 
that could be easily abused though if the defending player has a card like backlash....I don't think its all that common to declare combat phase(maybe some disagree, I havent played with many different people so I cant really say) but an attacking player wouldn't know the defending player had this card in his hand so he probably wouldn't take the time to think- oh, maybe i should say entering combat phase, so he just attacks with whoever he wishes to attack with, meanwhile if what you say is right, the defending player (knowing that the attacking platyer wouldn't anounce start of combat) could just say he went to fast and that he needs to back up, thus knowing who the attacking player wants to attack with, and use backlash on that creature....I totally understand what your saying and it seems that being able to back up your opponent is the only way to go about the situation...but it still sucks that a situation like I just mentioned could happen, because it doesnt seem like declaring the start of phases is common practice

It's really not an issue at all.  99% of the time, he knows which creatures you were going to attack with anyway, and 99% of the time he is going to tap your best one.

If there is a card on the battlefield or a commonly used Instant in the format you're playing that can tap a creature, then you could err on the side of caution and announce every Beginning of Combat step.  But like I said, most of the time skipping ahead to Declare Attackers really doesn't give your opponent that much of an advantage, it's usually pretty obvious what you're going to attack with.
that could be easily abused though if the defending player has a card like backlash....I don't think its all that common to declare combat phase(maybe some disagree, I havent played with many different people so I cant really say) but an attacking player wouldn't know the defending player had this card in his hand so he probably wouldn't take the time to think- oh, maybe i should say entering combat phase, so he just attacks with whoever he wishes to attack with, meanwhile if what you say is right, the defending player (knowing that the attacking platyer wouldn't anounce start of combat) could just say he went to fast and that he needs to back up, thus knowing who the attacking player wants to attack with, and use backlash on that creature....I totally understand what your saying and it seems that being able to back up your opponent is the only way to go about the situation...but it still sucks that a situation like I just mentioned could happen, because it doesnt seem like declaring the start of phases is common practice

It's really not an issue at all.  99% of the time, he knows which creatures you were going to attack with anyway, and 99% of the time he is going to tap your best one.

If there is a card on the battlefield or a commonly used Instant in the format you're playing that can tap a creature, then you could err on the side of caution and announce every Beginning of Combat step.  But like I said, most of the time skipping ahead to Declare Attackers really doesn't give your opponent that much of an advantage, it's usually pretty obvious what you're going to attack with.



I was thinking this, and im not trying to nit pick, but if every player knows what cards his opponent has, then one can equally make the arguement that whoever has backlash has equal knowledge that the attacking player has no means to untap an already tapped creature, so he could just play backlash at any point before combat starts if he knows who his opponent is going to attack with....i think the op is referring to a more casual setting, in which you wouldn't know your opponents cards, and less experienced players (not saying the op is one) might not know an obivous attacker when they see one, all I'm saying is that this issue is never going to dissapear (in casual or non-competitive settings) unless it becomes manditory to declare start of combat phase
i think the op is referring to a more casual setting, in which you wouldn't know your opponents cards, and less experienced players (not saying the op is one) might not know an obivous attacker when they see one, all I'm saying is that this issue is never going to dissapear (in casual or non-competitive settings) unless it becomes manditory to declare start of combat phase

Like I said, it's not an issue.  If you don't want it to happen to you, then declare your Beginning of Combat step every time. There is no need to make it mandatory.

heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it
heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it

Just because YOU have an issue with it, doesn't make it an issue.

Go ahead and properly announce EVERY priority pass and see how fun your "casual" play becomes.

heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it

Just because YOU have an issue with it, doesn't make it an issue.

Go ahead and properly announce EVERY priority pass and see how fun your "casual" play becomes.



really dont look at both sides of the arguement do you?....Just because YOU dont have an issue with it, doesn't make it a non-issue

and this isn't an issue for me btw, and i have fun not annoucing every priority pass, but whether this comes up 90% of the time, or .0001% the fact of the matter is theres no rule in the book that can settle an arguement about this topic, so yes, it is an issue
heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it

Just because YOU have an issue with it, doesn't make it an issue.

Go ahead and properly announce EVERY priority pass and see how fun your "casual" play becomes.




Have you actually tried this?  I know the normal wisdom is that announcing every priority change is mind-numbingly slow and tedious, but is it really?  I mean, all it means is saying "response?" and "I'd like to enter combat" and stuff like that every so often.

I haven't tried it myself, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem that bad.
I haven't tried it myself, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

Player A untaps his permanents.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A draws a card.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A plays a land.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A declares his attackers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B declares his blockers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Combat damage is resolved.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A casts a creature spell. 
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B untaps his permanents....

Does that sound like a fun game?
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I haven't tried it myself, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

Player A untaps his permanents.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A draws a card.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A plays a land.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A declares his attackers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B declares his blockers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Combat damage is resolved.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A plays a creature spell. 
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B untaps his permanents....

Does that sound like a fun game?



im not suggesting this be put into the rules, im only saying that the only way right now to settle this and have a ruling thats effective 100% of the time is to make it manditory..in EVERY setting of magic

besides that, the only phase you would have to declare is entering combat.. thats the problem here
Does that sound like a fun game?

It's loads of fun, and it's called "Legacy"

(Ok, not really.  Shortcuts are an integral part of magic.  So is step-by-step priority passing.  Experienced players know when to use one, and when to use the other so the game flows smoothly.)

Gerdef

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heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it

Just because YOU have an issue with it, doesn't make it an issue.

Go ahead and properly announce EVERY priority pass and see how fun your "casual" play becomes.




Have you actually tried this?  I know the normal wisdom is that announcing every priority change is mind-numbingly slow and tedious, but is it really?  I mean, all it means is saying "response?" and "I'd like to enter combat" and stuff like that every so often.

I haven't tried it myself, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

yes, I've tried it, it's called Magic Online. Have you played a six player game online? Fortunately (sometimes unfortunately), they have a nice function keyed to F6.

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im not suggesting this be put into the rules, im only saying that the only way right now to settle this and have a ruling thats effective 100% of the time is to make it manditory..in EVERY setting of magic

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to make it mandatory.  The rules are already very clear about this scenario, and the solution is to announce your Beginning of Combat Step.  If you want to do that, go for it, but there is no reason for it to be mandatory for the rest of us!

im not suggesting this be put into the rules, im only saying that the only way right now to settle this and have a ruling thats effective 100% of the time is to make it manditory..in EVERY setting of magic

No, that is not true. At present, the rules are very clear and are enforced consistently across the world at events large and small. This is not a problem in the real world. When thousands of dollars are on the line, these rules are good enough to ensure a fair outcome every time.
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im not suggesting this be put into the rules, im only saying that the only way right now to settle this and have a ruling thats effective 100% of the time is to make it manditory..in EVERY setting of magic

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to make it mandatory.  The rules are already very clear about this scenario, and the solution is to announce your Beginning of Combat Step.  If you want to do that, go for it, but there is no reason for it to be mandatory for the rest of us!




fight the power! again, this isnt an issue for me, the problem is people that are stuck in this scenario cant look to the rulebook to resolve it in real time
heh, who cares about casual play right? and saying this isnt an issue is kinda odd, seeing as how were posting in a thread about it



My CASUAL table announces beginning of combat. There's too high a likelihood that someone wants to do something to just skip straight to the turning-sideways part. (This does not mean we explicitly pass priority at each point, it just means that the particular shortcut of skipping to declaring attackers is declined often enough by the defender that it's not generally used at our table.)

In any event, if the attacker does offer the shortcut of skipping to declare attackers, and proceeds to tap to attack without an opportunity for the defender to perform actions in beginning of combat, then he is perfectly within his right to rewind the game to that point. The shortcut is declined, the attackers are returned to their original position, and people cast / do stuff until they're ready to proceed. The attacker is under no obligation to keep his original choice of attackers if the defender did anything at all; he could ultimately decline to name a single attacker.

The argument that "he could have done it in main" is invalid; the defender is also perfectly within his rights to see what sorcery-timing events (such as, say, a big fatty with Haste) his opponent may be casting before he makes his combat-affecting choices.
 
besides that, the only phase you would have to declare is entering combat.. thats the problem here

Uh, no, there are all kinds of "advanced" plays that people want to do during your opponents upkeep or during the declare attackers/blockers steps, the end step, etc.  EVERY priority pass is there for a reason, beacause there are some scenarios where you want to act.  If you propose that this particular one be announced every single time, then all of the others should be as well.
fight the power! again, this isnt an issue for me, the problem is people that are stuck in this scenario cant look to the rulebook to resolve it in real time

WTF.  This argument could be made for every rule in the entire comprehensive rulebook!  The game has rules, if that's a problem for you, you're playing the wrong game.

I've never seen it become much of an issue.

Usually people play with shortcuts all the time, until someone has to be backed up, and then they given their opponent opportunity to react, now that they know it's relevant.

e.g. Against a blue player, I just tap my guys to signal their attack.  Once they back me up and use something like Cryptic Command, on future turns I will do the "declare attacks?"

Gerdef
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besides that, the only phase you would have to declare is entering combat.. thats the problem here

Uh, no, there are all kinds of "advanced" plays that people want to do during your opponents upkeep or during the declare attackers/blockers steps, the end step, etc.  EVERY priority pass is there for a reason, beacause there are some scenarios where you want to act.  If you propose that this particular one be announced every single time, then all of the others should be as well.
fight the power! again, this isnt an issue for me, the problem is people that are stuck in this scenario cant look to the rulebook to resolve it in real time

WTF.  This argument could be made for every rule in the entire comprehensive rulebook!  The game has rules, if that's a problem for you, you're playing the wrong game.




ugh, when players get confused about cards/steps/the stack or anything else they can look it up and find an answer thats 100% in favor of one side the arguement, since the OP, (which we seem to have forgot) about was attacking and didnt have to declare combat, this situation arose and they can both argue endlessly with eachother because niether of them is wrong or right

 since the OP, (which we seem to have forgot) about was attacking and didnt have to declare combat, this situation arose and they can both argue endlessly with eachother because niether of them is wrong or right



Well, the OP was wrong in that, no, his opponent did not have to do it in his initial main phase. There was an additional step that was skipped.

The question of "how much of a pause constitutes acceptance of the shortcut" is not something that will be answered here, or in the rulebook, except that I'm not certain the OP was even aware of the "Beginning of Combat" step, before "Declare Attackers", in the Combat Phase.
 
ugh, when players get confused about cards/steps/the stack or anything else they can look it up and find an answer thats 100% in favor of one side the arguement, since the OP, (which we seem to have forgot) about was attacking and didnt have to declare combat, this situation arose and they can both argue endlessly with eachother because niether of them is wrong or right

The OP wasn't aware that there was a priority pass during the Beginning of Combat Step.  This information can be found in the rulebook.

Any confusion about shortcutting can be found in the Tournament Rules.

In any casual situation I hope you have better friends than to just sit there arguing endlessly.  If you wanted an answer I just told you where it can be found.

In any competitive situation I would think that both players would know enough of the rules for this not to come up, and if it did, there is a judge to set them straight.

I haven't tried it myself, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem that bad.

Player A untaps his permanents.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A draws a card.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A plays a land.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A declares his attackers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B declares his blockers.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Combat damage is resolved.
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A casts a creature spell. 
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player A: "Pass"
Player B: "Pass"
Player B untaps his permanents....

Does that sound like a fun game?



Why not?  Those passes would have taken a lot less time to say than it took you to write them, and you seemed to have fun enough with that.

ugh, when players get confused about cards/steps/the stack or anything else they can look it up and find an answer thats 100% in favor of one side the arguement, since the OP, (which we seem to have forgot) about was attacking and didnt have to declare combat, this situation arose and they can both argue endlessly with eachother because niether of them is wrong or right

The OP wasn't aware that there was a priority pass during the Beginning of Combat Step.  This information can be found in the rulebook.

Any confusion about shortcutting can be found in the Tournament Rules.

In any casual situation I hope you have better friends than to just sit there arguing endlessly.  If you wanted an answer I just told you where it can be found.

In any competitive situation I would think that both players would know enough of the rules for this not to come up, and if it did, there is a judge to set them straight.




I know the answer and where to find it, this isnt an issue for me, im glad when money is on the line the rules are tight...i simply pointed out a small exploitation that probably would nearly never come up, but it is there


Why not?  Those passes would have taken a lot less time to say than it took you to write them, and you seemed to have fun enough with that.



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58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Why not?  Those passes would have taken a lot less time to say than it took you to write them, and you seemed to have fun enough with that.

Now you're just be intentionally dense.  That was a single turn where almost nothing happened.  You KNOW that your suggestion is ridiculous, so just drop it.

Why not?  Those passes would have taken a lot less time to say than it took you to write them, and you seemed to have fun enough with that.

Now you're just be intentionally dense.  That was a single turn where almost nothing happened.  You KNOW that your suggestion is ridiculous, so just drop it.




I know your not quoting me... but just to throw it out there, I was only talking about declaring the start of combat is all....and whether this ever did pass as a rule I wouldn't care either way, as i personally wouldn't find it to be neccesary
I know your not quoting me... but just to throw it out there, I was only talking about declaring the start of combat is all....and whether this ever did pass as a rule I wouldn't care either way, as i personally wouldn't find it to be neccesary

In that case I will copy & paste one of my previous posts:

There are all kinds of "advanced" plays that people want to do during your opponents upkeep or during the declare attackers/blockers steps, the end step, etc.  EVERY priority pass is there for a reason, beacause there are some scenarios where you want to act.  If you propose that this particular one be announced every single time, then all of the others should be as well.

The rules of the game are already quite clear. When priority passes to another player he must give permission for the game to continue. If you assume that a lack of any statment is permission and continue with the game, it is his right to ask you to back up to the point where he had priority so that he can perform an action, or just to study the situation and decide whether he does or does not want to perform an action. If he does something which indicates permission, such as declare blockers or adjust his life total after you declare attackers, then he has passed on his opportunity to perform an action.

You can't just wait a few seconds and assume he isn't going to do anything, the game is very complex and if he holds more than one card that could apply in this situation, he may need time to decide which action to take, if any. Otherwise, the game could devolve into an argument such as:

"I-attack-with-these-two-creatures-you-take-eight-damage-because-you-have-no-blockers-and-die-I-win!" (Picks up cards and shuffles)
"Wait a moment, before damage I cast Lightning Bolt at the 3/3 and Unsummon at the 5/5"
"Too late the games over I won!"

In a friendly, casual game you should be willing to back up a step and let your opponent take the time he needs to make a decision. In a tournament you have to, I'm sure that trying to rush through the game without giving your opponent a chance to respond would result in a warning from a Judge, and subsequently disqualification. Likewise, in casual games if you try to trick your way into winning like that, you will find few people willing to play a game with you, once they realize you try to bully your way into a win like that.


I know your not quoting me... but just to throw it out there, I was only talking about declaring the start of combat is all....and whether this ever did pass as a rule I wouldn't care either way, as i personally wouldn't find it to be neccesary

In that case I will copy & paste one of my previous posts:

There are all kinds of "advanced" plays that people want to do during your opponents upkeep or during the declare attackers/blockers steps, the end step, etc.  EVERY priority pass is there for a reason, beacause there are some scenarios where you want to act.  If you propose that this particular one be announced every single time, then all of the others should be as well.




advanced yes, but this is a unique case that only pertains to combat being announced or not, I dont think there is a situation quite like this one that could happen during any other phase/step transition. Again im ONLY talking about that small exploitation i mentioned(I know its probably never going to happen) backing a player up cant be used to the defending players advantage to the extent that it COULD be used with tapping a creature the attacking player wants to attack with
advanced yes, but this is a unique case that only pertains to combat being announced or not, I dont think there is a situation quite like this one that could happen during any other phase/step transition.


A player may want to cast something in your upkeep to tap all your lands, so you cannot cast anything you might draw in your draw step. So, by your own logic, you have to also make it mandatory to explicitly pass priority to enter your draw step. And your opponent may want to cast a discard spell in your draw step so you won't be able to cast that sorcery you just drew. So, by your own logic, you have to also make it mandatory to explicitly pass priority to enter your first main phase.

Again im ONLY talking about that small exploitation i mentioned(I know its probably never going to happen) backing a player up cant be used to the defending players advantage to the extent that it COULD be used with tapping a creature the attacking player wants to attack with


I'm not sure what you're saying here. If the active player rushes through the Beginning of Combat without giving his opponent a chance to tap his creatures, the game will be backed up to before the declaration of attackers. This is an advantage for the defending player, but it's the active player's own fault that his opponent gets this advantage, so there's no need to be sympathetic.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

advanced yes, but this is a unique case that only pertains to combat being announced or not, I dont think there is a situation quite like this one that could happen during any other phase/step transition.


A player may want to cast something in your upkeep to tap all your lands, so you cannot cast anything you might draw in your draw step. So, by your own logic, you have to also make it mandatory to explicitly pass priority to enter your draw step. And your opponent may want to cast a discard spell in your draw step so you won't be able to cast that sorcery you just drew. So, by your own logic, you have to also make it mandatory to explicitly pass priority to enter your first main phase.

Again im ONLY talking about that small exploitation i mentioned(I know its probably never going to happen) backing a player up cant be used to the defending players advantage to the extent that it COULD be used with tapping a creature the attacking player wants to attack with


I'm not sure what you're saying here. If the active player rushes through the Beginning of Combat without giving his opponent a chance to tap his creatures, the game will be backed up to before the declaration of attackers. This is an advantage for the defending player, but it's the active player's own fault that his opponent gets this advantage, so there's no need to be sympathetic.



you dont get to see what card they drew though, so its not an advantage compared to knowing who they want to attack with

it's not common practice to announce combat phase, so its not really the attacking players fault either...im not talking about scnearios where the attacking player rushes from draw to combat...i posted a scenario earlier on in this thread about instances that tap creatures