Disciple of Divine Wrath and Oath of Enmity

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Hi all! I do have a little doubt on the application of this feat and the Avenger power in question.

The feat states;
"The effect lasts until the end of your next turn."

 while the power says;
"This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power."

How does it works?

Thanks!
There's been a bit of an argument, and I don't remember what most people ended up decding on.

The basic options are that the feat completely overwrites the duration of the base power, and it only lasts until the end of your next turn, no matter what, and you can only use it the once in an encounter;

or that it lasts until the end of your next turn, but if the target drops to 0 hp before it fades, you regain the use of the power.


Personally I lean towards the first interpretation myself.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Personally I lean towards the first interpretation myself.


I did too until they errata'ed Hero of Faith, the other Avenger MC feat, to include the words "You cannot switch or extend the duration of the power in any way" but then fail to include the same words for Disciple of Divine Wrath.  That to me suggests they do not function the same way and hence I leaned towards the latter interpretation.
Personally I lean towards the first interpretation myself.


I did too until they errata'ed Hero of Faith, the other Avenger MC feat, to include the words "You cannot switch or extend the duration of the power in any way" but then fail to include the same words for Disciple of Divine Wrath.  That to me suggests they do not function the same way and hence I leaned towards the latter interpretation.



Technically, a 'recharge' is neither an extend nor a target switch.

So to me, Hero of Faith has the same vague wording as Disciple of Divine Wrath, because the real issue here isn't the power's duration; it's whether or not it retains the recharge mechanic.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.

Technically, a 'recharge' is neither an extend nor a target switch.

So to me, Hero of Faith has the same vague wording as Disciple of Divine Wrath, because the real issue here isn't the power's duration; it's whether or not it retains the recharge mechanic.


Even if you would interpret it in such a narrow interpretation, the fact of the matter is that additional line was included in one and not the other.  It's essentially saying that Disciple of Divine Wrath can be extended or redirected to another target whereas Hero of Faith can't.  Similarly, the fact that Hero of Faith grants you its bonus once -- nipping the possibility of recharging in the bud; whereas DoDW continues its bonuses throughout the round implies that there is an inherent difference in their recharge possibilities.

Even if you would interpret it in such a narrow interpretation, the fact of the matter is that additional line was included in one and not the other.  It's essentially saying that Disciple of Divine Wrath can be extended or redirected to another target whereas Hero of Faith can't.  Similarly, the fact that Hero of Faith grants you its bonus once -- nipping the possibility of recharging in the bud; whereas DoDW continues its bonuses throughout the round implies that there is an inherent difference in their recharge possibilities.



I simply don't see that as a valid inference.

Neither of them says that the power can recharge.  (Similarly, neither of them explicitly prevents it from recharging).  Any other language is irrelevant to the question of recharge.

I suspect there's probably some game element that would let you extend Oath of Emnity (prpbably something that extends an EoT debuff), and so Hero of Faith is forbidding the use of such a thing, while Disciple of Divine Wrath isn't.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
This seems to be issue that needs clarification/errata by WotC.

So resuming, the combination of choices in the OP either:

a) Make the use of Oath of Enmity last until until the end of your next turn, thus overwriting the power duration completely as it does not recharge.

or

b) Make the use of Oath of Enmity last until the end of your next turn but if the target drops to 0 hp before the end of your next turn, you regain the use of the power.


The power does recharge, but you're still limited, by the feat, to using it once per encounter.  It's like recharging a Channel Divinity power (assuming you don't have something that lets you use more than one CD per encounter); it doesn't matter that you've recharged Turn Undead, you still can't use it since you can only use one CD per encounter.  The fact that you've recharged OoE doesn't overcome the once per encounter restriction.
The power does recharge, but you're still limited, by the feat, to using it once per encounter.  It's like recharging a Channel Divinity power (assuming you don't have something that lets you use more than one CD per encounter); it doesn't matter that you've recharged Turn Undead, you still can't use it since you can only use one CD per encounter.  The fact that you've recharged OoE doesn't overcome the once per encounter restriction.




By definition, 'recharge' means 'you can use it again'.

MM2, page 7:

A monster power is at-will, encounter, or daily, or it recharges in certain circumstances.

Recharge 2/3/4/5/6:  The power has a random chance of recharging during each round of combat.  At the start of each of the monster's turns, roll a d6.  If the roll is one of the die results shown in the power description, the monster [i]regains the use of that power[/i].  The power also recharges after a short rest.

Recharges when... The power recharges in a specific circumstance, such as when the monster is first bloodied during an encounter.  The power also recharges after a short rest.



By your definition, even a single-class avenger would only be able to OOE once per encounter.  "Recharge" and "regain the use of" are synonymous.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Even if you would interpret it in such a narrow interpretation, the fact of the matter is that additional line was included in one and not the other.  It's essentially saying that Disciple of Divine Wrath can be extended or redirected to another target whereas Hero of Faith can't.  Similarly, the fact that Hero of Faith grants you its bonus once -- nipping the possibility of recharging in the bud; whereas DoDW continues its bonuses throughout the round implies that there is an inherent difference in their recharge possibilities.

Hero of Faith can't be moved to a new target with Refocus Enmity.  Disciple of Divine Wrath can.  Hero of Faith can't be extended by effects that would extend an effect that would end this turn to the end of your next turn instead, whereas Disciple of Divine Wrath can.  (I can't think of an existing example for the latter, but that doesn't mean there isn't or won't be one.)

Both of them can only be used once, because that's what the feat limits them too.  Same as the whole Multiclass Healing Word thing.

I'll also note that according to the compendium, they didn't add the "Extended or switch" line with an errata.  They added "end of turn or drops to 0 hit points" with an errata.  Before that errata, Hero of Faith allowed you to smack the opponent multiple times with the full bonus.

I hate to bring up an old thread, but I need some further clarification once an attack is made.

Using Disciple of Divine Wrath

Does it expire after the first attack is made (if you choose to roll twice ofcourse)

OR

does it allow multiple uses of attacks through it ending "at the end of your next turn". Using an AP, you can technically get use of OoE 3x this way.

Comparing to the higher pre-req feat 'Hero of Faith', if the 2nd option is the case, why would anyone ever want Hero of Faith? Just to have a better selection of a new class skill?

I would assume that both expire after the 1st attack is made using OoE (2 dice rolls).
Using Disciple of Divine Wrath

Does it expire after the first attack is made (if you choose to roll twice ofcourse)

No, it doesn't expire after the first hit.

The Disciple of Divine Wrath version of oath of enmity lasts until the end of next turn. You get to roll twice for all attacks that qualify until then (melee attacks when the OoE target is the only adjacent enemy).

Hero of Faith was better pre-update -- it used to last until the creature dropped to 0 hit points, hence the higher prerequisite.  Hero of Faith still gives you a better choice of skills, but Disciple of Divine Wrath is probably a better choice now.