4/12/2010 MM: "On the Rise, Part III"

33 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Anyone else getting a server error?

Indeed, i was hoping they'd fix this before Monday.

… and then, the squirrels came.
Confirmed, server error here. This is what the link leads to, with 'Greater than' symbols replaced with 'V':

Show

 
Server Error in '/' Application.

Runtime Error


Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.

Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".






V!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

Vconfiguration>
Vsystem.web>
VcustomErrors mode="Off"/>
V/system.web>
V/configuration>




Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.



V!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

Vconfiguration>
Vsystem.web>
VcustomErrors mode="RemoteOnly" defaultRedirect="mycustompage.htm"/>
V/system.web>
V/configuration>


To get to the article, log out of the forums. You may also have to navigate in from wizards.com; I didn't have much luck with going directly to Daily MTG through my bookmark toolbar.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Pretty lackluster article, it cemented my dislike of ROE.

I don't mind them wanting to promote a diffrent style of play, but changing it this drastically seems like a bad idea.

The spread thing was an interesting tidbit, but in the end fell short. Any large project runs into this kind of system of parrellel solutions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ROE isn't for me, i'm sad to see that the land theme was ended for this themeless pile of high converted mana costs.
… and then, the squirrels came.

Hmmm... this preview card seems ok. The art isn't quite the style I like, but its decent. Depending on the other cards that support it, I might be tempted by this one (maybe).

Thanks for the article Mr R.  I wish I could say I was more interested in RoE, but you can't like everything.

The design of this set is unlike any previous Magic set.  I can't wait to try it out myself.
To get to the article, log out of the forums. You may also have to navigate in from wizards.com; I didn't have much luck with going directly to Daily MTG through my bookmark toolbar.



Thanks for the tip. Would have been handy yesterday as well but better late than never

I don't think I have ever been this indifferent to a brand new card set. I can't even be "mad" at it like Lorwyn. I feel nothing at all. It took me some time to figure out if the article is bad or if I just don't care about the topic. But after last week's "walls, fatties, auras and inefficient small creatures" article, it would probably have taken a "just kidding!" article this week to bring me back aboard.

 I am skipping this prerelease. The thought of actually playing with these cards versus hanging out at the marina watching boats all day is unexciting at best, yawn-inducing at worst.
I liked the card. It could be interesting with all the ways there are to have lots of Eldrazi Spawn tokens in play, but unfortunately these tokens probably won't appear in any other set.....

I understand why so many players dislike RoE. It's a very different set, which generates very different opinions. I like it so far because of that, it will be a new experience and will create new challenges, (not to mention the big creatures, I'm a Timmy-Johnny player).
But a lot can go wrong, so let's wait and see...
I little bit too much vanilla for my taste but nice. Probably I got spoiled by the new wave of tribal lords who give something else apart from the stat bonus.
As a side note is just me or in the last two weeks for every card that been spoiled we had the same posters, 4 or 5 I think, telling the world that they don't like RoE? Don't want to start a flame or something just stating that we got the message so please start with something new.

 
I'm kind of meh about this set so far. It felt very much like a second swing at Kamigawa, and now that I have seen a lot more of the set, I'm afraid it feels like like a second swing at Kamigawa.

I would actually be more interested for Mark to revisit his seminal piece on design vs rarity issues

www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.a...

because two of the three principles - wanting power levels to remain constant and in particular not wanting rarity=power seem to have been overturned, or at the very least call for an explanation.
As a side note is just me or in the last two weeks for every card that been spoiled we had the same posters, 4 or 5 I think, telling the world that they don't like RoE?

I'm willing to give this set a chance.

Of course, they will start out with cards like Kozilek - exciting, flavorful, but not giving away where the real power in the set lies.

As this set is supposed to contain mana accel to enable people to get the Eldrazi out early - and not all of that will be tied to casting Eldrazi spells - I think this set will have real meat in it that we haven't seen yet. After all, mana accel is pretty strong... we all remember Black Lotus and the Moxen.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

Pretty lackluster article, it cemented my dislike of ROE.

I don't mind them wanting to promote a diffrent style of play, but changing it this drastically seems like a bad idea.

The spread thing was an interesting tidbit, but in the end fell short. Any large project runs into this kind of system of parrellel solutions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ROE isn't for me, i'm sad to see that the land theme was ended for this themeless pile of high converted mana costs.



It kind of seemed to me like they knew that this sentiment would be out there among a segment of the Magic populace but by trying this out in a stand alone set they would give players the opportunity to try something different and if the set isn't for you then:

1st it won't likely affect too much right off the bat (if ever)
2nd it will only be 3 months until you get something that will (probably) be more to your interests

I relate this stand alone set to coldsnap (the last stand alone expansion) in many ways. I personally enjoyed Coldsnap when everyone else hated it. Like coldsnap I think that RoE will be awesome to draft. I know people who hated Coldsnap overall but absolutely loved to draft it. They call it a "for draft only" set and I could totally see RoE being that way for some people. Yes, I question the effectiveness of the set overall in standard. In particular this set doesn't look like it will play well against themes and cards from other sets like day of judgment since most of the mana acceleration is creature based. Still I am confident that I can find a way to cast these spells even if I have to do it on the kitchen table instead of FNM.

So far I like RoE. I really liked shards block but I wasn't a huge fan of zendikar and worldwake. You could say that the landfall theme wasn't for me and I have a particular dislike of the quests and most of the traps (but thank you R & D for the enemy colored sac lands and the worldwake man lands). Not every set is for everyone but if their target audience for this set was not the tourney player it would explain why they have limited it to a stand alone set to maybe draw some new players into the game. I also think the storyline of having these Eldrazi enemies of the planeswalkers is very attractive. Since the first fat pack I bought back in 2005 the MtG books have been (IMO) much worse than your average fantasy novel. Today I can confidently pay for a MtG novel and know that I'm getting my money's worth. I say all that to say that I think the game mechanics meet up with the overall storyline really well in this set and I think that will go a long way towards bringing in new players.

On the preview card. I can't say I didn't expect it. I kind of wish it was a 3/4 so that I would have less competition if I was drafting it but overall I really enjoy this preview card.




I would actually be more interested for Mark to revisit his seminal piece on design vs rarity issues

www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.a...

because two of the three principles - wanting power levels to remain constant and in particular not wanting rarity=power seem to have been overturned, or at the very least call for an explanation.



that is my one disappointment about this set. You can't tell me that you're moving a card from rare to mythic because of limited purposes and yet it seems that more and more "power level mythics" are popping up. This set is by far the worst offender of this to date.
Don't be too smart to have fun

As a side note is just me or in the last two weeks for every card that been spoiled we had the same posters, 4 or 5 I think, telling the world that they don't like RoE? Don't want to start a flame or something just stating that we got the message so please start with something new.

 



1) The kitchen will be hot until the prerelease this Saturday. We have an equal number of people falling on their swords for WOTC, which actually destroys discussion rather than promoting it.
2) Most people who are criticizing the set are saying more than "I don't like it."
3) As morticianjohn above me has noted, they were smart to experiment in this way on a third set. That right there is a clear indicator that they knew there would be some dissenting opinions. And the people have shown up on cue.
4) It's a lot more than 4 or 5 people, although probably not nearly enough to prevent this set from being a financial success.

On the subject of rarity=power: I agree that this set is the worst offender so far, but it seems like they've been doing this for some time now. I can go back at least as far as Lorwyn block and find some examples. The article seems like it was written many years ago (instead of only five)
I liked the card. It could be interesting with all the ways there are to have lots of Eldrazi Spawn tokens in play, but unfortunately these tokens probably won't appear in any other set.....



And that's why I've changed my mind about this card since I commented this morning. I'm tired of trying to build around things that don't get supported further down the line.

I find this is especially a problem with certain kinds of token makers. I'm the kind of OCD-afflicted player who'll only use token generators if I have the tokens to match them, but lots of tokens are only made by one or two cards (not enough to build around).

With so many different kinds of tokens, its annoying having to collect a bunch of different ones for a token deck. Besides, casual players like themes, and I'd rather use all the same kind of creature tokens than mix different ones. I'll put that down to being a Timmy, and not OCD this time.

Eldrazi Spawn seem well supported in this set, but we may never see them again, so is it worth collecting them now? I think I'd much rather collect something like Saprolings because they appear in a lot of different blocks. I wish other token types would see that kind of support across different sets - it makes it more fun because you can expect new cards to freshen up your deck.

And on a related note, bring back squirrel tokens Wizards!!!
Eldrazi Spawn seem well supported in this set, but we may never see them again, so is it worth collecting them now?

Has it ever been worth the effort to "collect" any token cards ever?

If you want them for the purpose of having them, then by all means, catch them all.  The idea that they'll ever be more functional than a pile of pennies, however, is just plain delusional.

Looking at the art (forgive me if I don't weigh in on whether the card is any good, or if this set is any good), I've been seeing radial spikes on numerous cards in this set. Broodwarden, of course, has what appears to be the RotE expansion symbol floating behind his head. But other non-Eldrazi cards in the Visual Spoiler, like Aura Gnarlid, Domestication, Deathless Angel, and even Sphinx of Magosi (to a limited extent) feature radial spike elements in their design, too. I could argue for others (Transcendent Master or Vengevine) but they aren't so distinct. Is this a visual theme? An attempt to tie the artwork to the newly rearranged Hedrons? Have they employed abstract artistic layout to unify other sets? I'm not an artist, nor have I studied art, so forgive me if I'm not using the right vocabulary.

I'm meh about the card, but I really like the set, so far.
"When the team talked about what the Eldrazi needed to be, talk turned to other games where it is common strategy to "turtle up" and build up your forces waiting, until each side has established substantial armies before any fighting begins. The team liked the idea of bringing this style of play to Magic. They dubbed this style of play "battlecruiser Magic."

This is about the most disappointing thing that could be said.   This style already exists at the kitchen table.  Making it a viable strategy in tournament Magic, even if only a few months of sealed/draft will give new players the wrong ideas. Basically, let's teach people that it's ok to play bad Magic because the environment rewards it. They'll be in for a shock the second they face down a 1 mana 2/2 in any other format.

The end is always nigh.
"When the team talked about what the Eldrazi needed to be, talk turned to other games where it is common strategy to "turtle up" and build up your forces waiting, until each side has established substantial armies before any fighting begins. The team liked the idea of bringing this style of play to Magic. They dubbed this style of play "battlecruiser Magic."

This is about the most disappointing thing that could be said.   This style already exists at the kitchen table.  Making it a viable strategy in tournament Magic, even if only a few months of sealed/draft will give new players the wrong ideas. Basically, let's teach people that it's ok to play bad Magic because the environment rewards it. They'll be in for a shock the second they face down a 1 mana 2/2 in any other format.


sometimes I think people overestimate how supposedly devastating it is for new players to jump from kitchen table to tournment. Sure they lose, but its not like they go home crying and throw their cards away in a tantrum. I remember, coming back to magic, having not played in at least 5 years, fresh to the concept of doing more than building "Dragon decks" and silly things like that, getting trounced by the then-standard legal faerie deck. Its was a paradigm shift, but its not something people can't just get over. Sure, the idea of the power of an aggressively costed 2/2 might take a bit of an adjustment, but there won't be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
um.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
sometimes I think people overestimate how supposedly devastating it is for new players to jump from kitchen table to tournment. Sure they lose, but its not like they go home crying and throw their cards away in a tantrum.

Hey, it isn't just people in this forum who do that. Seen Counterspell in a Standard-legal set lately?

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

sometimes I think people overestimate how supposedly devastating it is for new players to jump from kitchen table to tournment. Sure they lose, but its not like they go home crying and throw their cards away in a tantrum.

Hey, it isn't just people in this forum who do that. Seen Counterspell in a Standard-legal set lately?


Meh... I'm personally not one who believes that just because it's "unfair to new players" is the entire reason they removed counterspell. I personally am of the opinion was that that it was removed to prevent what Tom LaPille referred to as "a beautiful mana curve of versatile and powerful counterspells". If the Counterspell was necessary for a health blue component in standard it would be, but its not. Also, its not just "new players" as he also says "Magic developers, who by nature are top-level players who have played hundreds of matches at high-level events, are just as susceptible to this illogical, emotional response as our players. We hate it when our spells get countered too, and we are also much happier when our ..."OpenTip(event, "Craw Wurm")" href="...:autoCardWindow('Craw_Wurm')">Craw Wurms get ..."OpenTip(event, "Doom Blade")" href="...:autoCardWindow('Doom_Blade')">Doom Bladed than we are when they get ..."OpenTip(event, "Essence Scatter")" href="...:autoCardWindow('Essence_Scatter')">Essence Scattered. This was an uncomfortable realization, because it makes no sense and we recognize it, but we are human too." So... the counterspell thing isn't entirely to help new players, but for a large body of players that spreads the stratum of new to old.
Counterspell was dropped once R&D saw the results of Armageddon disappearing.
Further elaboration upon request.
I'm concerned about this "battlecruiser" style.  It sounds like it will be utterly horrible when two such decks play against each other, having nothing happen until one of them wins the race to drop their ridiculous fatty fastest.  Whoever attacks first with an annihilator is very heavily favored to win - yet they don't have trample, so it may take a long time to deliver the deathblow as the rapidly losing player fights to stay alive for one more turn in hopes of drawing removal they can still afford to cast or a monstrosity of their own to turn the tide.  If there were still some players fighting it out with aggro, it might be interesting to build a deck designed to withstand them - but the environment pushes the "battlecruiser" style (which is basically just control play with less than the adequate amount of removal and such, probably containing more finishers than necessary but no way to protect them) so hard with all these defenders and such that I don't think anyone will be even trying to aggro out.

By the way I did like hearing about "the spread", although it's not a stupendously brilliant revelation.  I'd like to hear more about this sort of parallel-processing evolution during design.

For the record, I kinda like this set even though I don't like its Thing A (the eldrazi) very much, and absolutely hate its Thing B (the levelers).  Because its Thing C (totem armor) is pretty nice, and its thing D (rebound) is amazing (and comes with some awesome cards to support it, such as Surrakar Spellblade), and it also brings a few other things to the table such as red getting new tech (returning cards from graveyard, a 1/7 blocker who attacks as a 7/1, and a mini-Treasure Hunt which replaces the land-drawing with some burn), or clever new takes on "haste" (the Doppelganger becomes your new creature and attacks in that form right away, or Emrakul simply manufactures the turn she needs to become attack-capable).  That kind of creativity, and the intriguing storyline, are enough to catch my interest despite my disliking the set's two biggest themes - a good bit of design work.  Whether it's good enough will sorta depend, but it's impressive on paper at least.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
I'm concerned about this "battlecruiser" style.  It sounds like it will be utterly horrible when two such decks play against each other, having nothing happen until one of them wins the race to drop their ridiculous fatty fastest.

So.... Giant free-for-all multiplayer with just two people?

I'm concerned about this "battlecruiser" style.  It sounds like it will be utterly horrible when two such decks play against each other, having nothing happen until one of them wins the race to drop their ridiculous fatty fastest.

So.... Giant free-for-all multiplayer with just two people?




Sort of, but with the important difference that a player who seizes a commanding lead in multiplayer almost always gets ganged up on and stomped into the ground for his trouble, while a person who fires the first artillery shell in this version of Magic is almost certainly going to snowball his way to victory - it'll just take a while.

As an aside, the idea of this style of gameplay reminds be about that Archenemy product they announced a while ago...might it function similarly, giving the player the tools to make a "battlecruiser" and/or stall long enough to play one out of a normal deck?  The idea would work somewhat better in a "many vs. one" multiplayer game than in a duel, methinks, and I believe Archenemy was supposed to be coming out somewhere around this spring.  (Personally I'm more interested in hearing about the Deck Builder's Toolkit, which was announced even earlier and also hasn't been mentioned since, but either way.)
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
Eldrazi Spawn seem well supported in this set, but we may never see them again, so is it worth collecting them now?

Has it ever been worth the effort to "collect" any token cards ever?

If you want them for the purpose of having them, then by all means, catch them all.  The idea that they'll ever be more functional than a pile of pennies, however, is just plain delusional.




No, I'd collect them to use, which is the point. Its nice if new cards come out later that make them matter. Some people don't mind using pennies and that's fine, but I don't. Its a matter of personal preference.

As a side note is just me or in the last two weeks for every card that been spoiled we had the same posters, 4 or 5 I think, telling the world that they don't like RoE? Don't want to start a flame or something just stating that we got the message so please start with something new.

 



1) The kitchen will be hot until the prerelease this Saturday. We have an equal number of people falling on their swords for WOTC, which actually destroys discussion rather than promoting it.
2) Most people who are criticizing the set are saying more than "I don't like it."
3) As morticianjohn above me has noted, they were smart to experiment in this way on a third set. That right there is a clear indicator that they knew there would be some dissenting opinions. And the people have shown up on cue.
4) It's a lot more than 4 or 5 people, although probably not nearly enough to prevent this set from being a financial success.

On the subject of rarity=power: I agree that this set is the worst offender so far, but it seems like they've been doing this for some time now. I can go back at least as far as Lorwyn block and find some examples. The article seems like it was written many years ago (instead of only five)



2) I didn't say they they were criticizing in an unreasonable matter. I was simply saying that if I keep hearing the same assertion over and over it get kinda boring.
3) I completely agree on this. While I'm interested because the play experience will be really different I completely understand that many people simply want more of the same. And anyway maybe the play experience will  turn horrible. Is a very good idea to try this kind of experiments on a stand alone set.
4)I said 4 or 5 on these forums that I noticed. Of course there are more out there.
Hope is all clear. My main language is not English. 
I liked the card. It could be interesting with all the ways there are to have lots of Eldrazi Spawn tokens in play, but unfortunately these tokens probably won't appear in any other set.....



And that's why I've changed my mind about this card since I commented this morning. I'm tired of trying to build around things that don't get supported further down the line.

I find this is especially a problem with certain kinds of token makers. I'm the kind of OCD-afflicted player who'll only use token generators if I have the tokens to match them, but lots of tokens are only made by one or two cards (not enough to build around).

With so many different kinds of tokens, its annoying having to collect a bunch of different ones for a token deck. Besides, casual players like themes, and I'd rather use all the same kind of creature tokens than mix different ones. I'll put that down to being a Timmy, and not OCD this time.

Eldrazi Spawn seem well supported in this set, but we may never see them again, so is it worth collecting them now? I think I'd much rather collect something like Saprolings because they appear in a lot of different blocks. I wish other token types would see that kind of support across different sets - it makes it more fun because you can expect new cards to freshen up your deck.

And on a related note, bring back squirrel tokens Wizards!!!



I completely agree. 
Me, I'm more of a saproling fan and I wonder why we got so little fungus goodness after time spiral. Micoloth is wonderful of course but we need more stuff to be able to build a decent theme deck.
P.S. Bring back doubling season!
 

As a side note is just me or in the last two weeks for every card that been spoiled we had the same posters, 4 or 5 I think, telling the world that they don't like RoE? Don't want to start a flame or something just stating that we got the message so please start with something new.

 



1) The kitchen will be hot until the prerelease this Saturday. We have an equal number of people falling on their swords for WOTC, which actually destroys discussion rather than promoting it.
2) Most people who are criticizing the set are saying more than "I don't like it."
3) As morticianjohn above me has noted, they were smart to experiment in this way on a third set. That right there is a clear indicator that they knew there would be some dissenting opinions. And the people have shown up on cue.
4) It's a lot more than 4 or 5 people, although probably not nearly enough to prevent this set from being a financial success.

On the subject of rarity=power: I agree that this set is the worst offender so far, but it seems like they've been doing this for some time now. I can go back at least as far as Lorwyn block and find some examples. The article seems like it was written many years ago (instead of only five)



2) I didn't say they they were criticizing in an unreasonable matter. I was simply saying that if I keep hearing the same assertion over and over it get kinda boring.
3) I completely agree on this. While I'm interested because the play experience will be really different I completely understand that many people simply want more of the same. And anyway maybe the play experience will  turn horrible. Is a very good idea to try this kind of experiments on a stand alone set.
4)I said 4 or 5 on these forums that I noticed. Of course there are more out there.
Hope is all clear. My main language is not English. 



2) I say if it's a good card, and bad cards are bad...because sometimes some people don't know..
3)moar bigger creatures isn't new...you know what new would be: a totally creatureless set !!
I would like to play this set in the pre-release though, finally 6 boosters of the new set !!! this should be the set up since they faded out the tournament packs...
4) I hate it when they print awesome mythics, which I know will get expensive and I have to wait until they drop out of standard before I can pick them up.. 



2) I didn't say they they were criticizing in an unreasonable matter. I was simply saying that if I keep hearing the same assertion over and over it get kinda boring.
3) I completely agree on this. While I'm interested because the play experience will be really different I completely understand that many people simply want more of the same. And anyway maybe the play experience will  turn horrible. Is a very good idea to try this kind of experiments on a stand alone set.
4)I said 4 or 5 on these forums that I noticed. Of course there are more out there.
Hope is all clear. My main language is not English. 



I actually should have accounted for that in my reply. Sorry about that, I think you told me that once before. I know sometimes in printed words aren't going to come off exactly as you intend. Most of the time I can get the gist of it.

By the way, English is my only language, so you are one up on me
"When the team talked about what the Eldrazi needed to be, talk turned to other games where it is common strategy to "turtle up" and build up your forces waiting, until each side has established substantial armies before any fighting begins. The team liked the idea of bringing this style of play to Magic. They dubbed this style of play "battlecruiser Magic."

This is about the most disappointing thing that could be said.   This style already exists at the kitchen table.  Making it a viable strategy in tournament Magic, even if only a few months of sealed/draft will give new players the wrong ideas. Basically, let's teach people that it's ok to play bad Magic because the environment rewards it. They'll be in for a shock the second they face down a 1 mana 2/2 in any other format.




Interesting. That was exactly what I was thinking when I read over that part of the article and it really stuck out at me. This set, from my perspective, appears to be a "fun-oriented" set and probably won't shouldn't be considered much more than that when playing "serious" / "tournament" / etc... . /shrug

This set looks fun and I will play it limited... but after limited... what am I gonna do with it?



Here's another point that really bugged me about this article:

The idea was that Rise of the Eldrazi was a large set played in isolation (a.k.a. no expansions)


"The idea was that Rise of the Eldrazi would be a new take on Kamigawa (a.k.a. "a functionally reprinted" set oriented only for Limited play)."

Fixt. Yell