I was intrigued by this feat, so I decided to play with some numbers to see when it was worth using in terms of DPR. First off, here's the text from p137 of MP2:Martial PloyPrequisite: Any Martial ClassBenefit: When you use aid another on an ally's w

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I was intrigued by this feat, so I decided to play with some numbers to see when it was worth using in terms of DPR. First off, here's the text from p137 of MP2:

Martial Ploy
Prequisite: Any Martial Class
Benefit: When you use aid another on an ally's weapon attack roll, the ally can roll twice and use either result. This effect replaces the normal +2 bonus to the attack roll. An ally can benefit from this feat only once per attack.

Here's the text for Aid Another (PHB p287):

Aid Another: Standard Action
Attack Roll: Choose a target within your melee reach and make a melee basic attack vs AC 10. If you succeed, deal no damage but choose one ally. That ally gets a +2 bonus to his or her next attack roll against the target or to all defenses against the target's next attack. This bonus ends if not used by the end of your next turn.

Note that Martial Ploy only applies to weapon attack rolls, so Monks are out of luck. Also note: Aid Another counts as an attack, so a fighter will mark the target with Combat Challenge.

So if you have a low DPR fighter or warlord, is it worth it to use this feat to help other classes? Let's say you're a defensive sword and board type with 18 str at first level. You're +8 vs AC and deal 1d8+4 dmg with your at-wills; against a level 1 monster with AC 15 you have a 6.13 DPR. Your buddy is a str 18 con 18 rageblood barbarian with a greataxe; he's +6 vs AC and deals 3d12 + 8 if he hits with Avalanche Strike. The DPR on that encounter power is 17.65 normally, but it becomes 23.35 if you give him an extra d20 to roll; you've improved his DPR by 5.7 -less than the DPR you gave up to provide that reroll. Of course the math improves for higher AC monsters. If you were fighting a level 3 soldier with AC 19, you'd give up a 4.43 DPR to boost the barbarian's 12.15 DPR to 19.85.

Now this seems like these should be the optimal builds to make the feat worthwhile, but it's still situational to have the DPR math come out in your favor. It doesn't help rangers as much because they usually make two attack rolls, and rogues are a lot more interested in making sure you give them CA. Most dailies deal half damage on a miss, and Paladin or Figher dailies are often reliable. A warlord with Wisdom or Charisma as a secondary will be much better off with Intuitive Strike, and Int-based warlords have other ways to boost attacks. That leaves fighters that don't lean towards striker or controller.

On the other hand, the DPR math of using Martial Ploy might not allways be great, but other benefits of making big attacks hit shouldn't be discounted. For example, everyone will breathe a lot easier if you make sure the taclord hits a dangerous elite or solo with Lead the Attack.

To sum things up, I'd say that this feat is a good pick for a fighter in a group whose leader can't do much to buff other players and particularly good if that group has a barbarian who needs help hitting. Your buddies will really appreciate the help hitting with dailies, but in most groups the feat is just solid for a fighter and weak for everyone else.
It's a reasonable feat for lazy Warlords - but they have other things that they can be doing with thier standard actions.
Edit - I take it back after looking more closely i think there could eb some good synergy here... i just need to find it
Oops! I forgot to make a title for the thread. That's what I get for typing it out ahead of time. I meant to title it: "Is Martial Ploy worthwhile?"
It's not really fair to compare a leader's At-will loss to a striker's Encounter power gain.

Plus, how does this compare to a good old Commander's Strike or even a Direct the Strike?  Is Martial Ploy + Avalanche Strike better than Melee Basic + Int Mod damage bonus + (unbuffed) Avalanche Strike?  I haven't done the math but I'm dubious on the answer.
I suspect that a fully optimized commander's strike would beat out martial ploy, as non-standard action attacks usually provide a huge jump to DPR.

BUT... if you have a character that gets huge bonuses for dropping an enemy and a low attack bonus then it might be worthwhile for a fighter to grant the extra roll to a barbarian to make sure he can get the kill. However, it would require some tricky init ordering and other funny business in combat to set up right. 

Here's a question for you guys... Does hitting with the MBA on the aid another action count as hitting with an MBA? There are several feats, the one i am thinking of is pinning challenge (which immobilizes an enemy with a hit off a MBA when the target is marked by you and you are using a spear), that will allow you to drop a status effect when you hit with an MBA. So I have immobilized an enemy and given my rogue buddy a double attack roll. And if my rogue buddy has the feat that allows the rogue to gain combat advantage against immobilized enemies... then you would give 2 attack rolls and CA for the rogue. And if he is a daggermaster... crits Ahoy!
Well it does say to make a melee basic attack, so if you've got a melee basic attack with a good set of riders you'd be pretty well off.

Let's see, basic attack are pretty rare as at wills, but there are some slides (Savage Rend or Eldritch Strike) and Grasping Claws for a slow.  I think there's even a feet to upgrade Grasping Claws to an immobilize, which could be useful.

If you're willing to spend the feat, Power of Skill might be worth taking a look at, as that add Overwhelming Strike (shift and slide) and Righteous Brand (+3 melee accuracy bonus).

Alternately, for another odd angle you could take Power of Arcana and Virtuous Strike.  The saving throw bonus is pretty mild, but openning up the white lotus feats can be nice.

I'd also suggest Righteous Fury.  You'd take a -2 to hit but the AC is fixed at 10, so it's not like you'll have much of a chance to miss.  That will give you a free rattling effect.

At paragon Warlord's Formation is nice as it lets you give that aid to two allies.  You could pick up Lashing Flail to get a slide on these attacks.

If you can get cold on the weapon you can set up cold vulnerability via Lasting Frost.

Heck with fixed target AC of 10 so you'll probably be auto-hitting before paragon.  With the right combo of effects, this could get pretty nice.  Sure, you'd be low damage, but you could put some decent control and ridiculous accuracy on this.

Heck, I might but up a sample build this weekend to show what I'm talking about.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Alright, here a quirky example of how much you coul milk out of the feat if you really wanted to.

The new cheese here comes from using Power of Love with Virtuous Strike.  Virtuous Strike can be used as a melee basic attack.  Power of Love lets you forgo damage to to grant temporary hit points to up to two allies.  Neither this nor aid another requires the power do any damage in the first place, so you should be able to stack them.

Combine that with the other feats and by 12th level you're getting the following perks at a 95% hit chance (+13 (17 - 2 Righteous Fury - 2 Double Team) vs a fixed AC of 10):
  • 10 temporary hitpoints to 2 allies within 5 squares (Power of Love).

  • Up to 2 allies (Walord's Formation) get a free reroll on their next attack (Martial Ploy)

  • An ally adjecent to the target gets a +3 bonus to damage rolls against the target (Double Team).

  • The target is at -4 to all attacks (-2 from rattling via Righteous Fury, -2 from Whip Training).

  • The target can be slid 4 squares (Lashing Flail gives 1 square, +3 for a staggering weapon).

  • +2 to user's saving throws (Virtuous Strike).


So yeah, all those perks so long as the player doesn't roll a 1 sounds like a good deal for losing out on 7 points of damage (1d4 + 5 using the whip) per round.

For alternate dickery, swap the whip with a net.  You'd slow the target and slide them away 5 squares.  That's close enough for you to reach them but too far for them to reach you, so say hello to divine challenge damage every round.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Wrenn, level 12
Gnome, Paladin|Warlord, Fey Beguiler
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Fortitude
Warlord Leadership: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Bedazzling Orb: Bedazzling Orb Charisma
Background: Early Life - Well-Loved (+2 to Diplomacy)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 9, Dex 14, Int 17, Wis 11, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 8, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 31 Fort: 23 Reflex: 23 Will: 23
HP: 77 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +16, Religion +14, Diplomacy +20, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +11, Bluff +11, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +1, Heal +6, History +9, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Streetwise +11, Thievery +4, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Power of Love
Level 2: Whip Training
Level 4: Martial Ploy
Level 6: Righteous Fury
Level 8: Double Team
Level 10: Hybrid Talent
Level 11: Warlord's Formation
Level 12: Lashing Flail

POWERS
Clever Versatililty: Circle of Protection
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Commander's Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine
Hybrid daily 1: Majestic Halo
Hybrid utility 2: Flash of Insight
Hybrid encounter 3: Avenging Smite
Hybrid daily 5: Pike Hedge
Hybrid utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Hybrid encounter 7: Price of Cowardice
Hybrid daily 9: Teachable Moment
Hybrid utility 10: Strider Stance

ITEMS
Staggering Whip +3, Summoned Gith Plate Armor +3, Recoil Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Cloak of Distortion +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
what about power of skill instead of power of love?
Virtuous Strike is already an MBA, is Charisma based and does other beneficial things on a hit, especially when combined with Power of Love.
Power of Skill is tied to Valiant Strike, which is a Strength based power that gets an attack bonus based on the number of adjacent enemies.

This is not as good as it sounds in this instance as we only need to hit an AC of 10, which can be guaranteed on anything but a 1 from level 3.
A level 3 whip user would have a +9 attack (+1 half-level, +4 ability, +3 proficiency, +1 magic weapon), a roll of 2 will give you a hit, the +1 enhancement bonus isn't even needed as a +8 modifier is all you need to guarantee the hit.

If you are a Chaladin then why aren't you using Virtuous Strike anyway, it's better than an MBA and saves you from needing to take Melee Training (Charisma) and if you are a Straladin then your Strength should be 18, in which case you don't need that attack bonus.

It depends on whether you are a Strength or Charisma Paladin but it also ties to the fact that you can't deal damage on an aid another attack. Virtuous Strike does other things besides damage, Valiant Strike doesn't.
Yeah, that pretty much covers it.  You can use Power of Skill, but that paladin option (Valiant Strike) doesn't help much with this combo.  If you're going that route, you better off going Cleric (Righteous Brand for +3 melee attack for one ally on target) or Avenger (Overwhelming Strike for shift 1 and slide target into space left).

You can probably stack more on this if you go the arcane route either through Virtuous Strike + Power of Arcane or with Eldritch Strike.  The warlock route is cheaper, but the paladin route lets you set up a nasty divine challenge + White Lotus Master Riposte combo.

I showed off the Power of Love combo since it's cost has no effect on aid another.  Plus the idea of a whip wielding warrior of love is entertaining. Laughing
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Power of Skill + Overwhelming Strike + Rushing Cleats + Polearm Momentum + Aid Another does give some nice easy proning.

Also: cool thread!
I showed off the Power of Love combo since it's cost has no effect on aid another.  Plus the idea of a whip wielding warrior of love is entertaining.



So I've had Frankie Goes To Hollywood running through my head all day thanks to this thread and now you go and say that!
With a comment like that shouldn't your Paladin be in Leather armour?! Laughing
It's not really fair to compare a leader's At-will loss to a striker's Encounter power gain.

Plus, how does this compare to a good old Commander's Strike or even a Direct the Strike?  Is Martial Ploy + Avalanche Strike better than Melee Basic + Int Mod damage bonus + (unbuffed) Avalanche Strike?  I haven't done the math but I'm dubious on the answer.

Let's see:

3[d12]+4+4=27.5, 45% hit chance, 5% crit chance (+1 weapon) = 14.75 DPR
1[d12]+4+4=14.5, 45% hit chance, 5% crit chance (+1 weapon) = 7.7
Total Commander's Strike + Avalanche Strike DPR = 22.45

3[d12]+4+4=27.5, best of 2 = 65.25% hit chance, 9.75% crit chance = 22.575

So yeah, that's a wash.  It gets better with a better crit, though.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

It's interesting, at least. I wouldn't bother using Martial Ploy for encounter powers unless you really, really need them to hit for some reason. Daily powers, however, often impact a combat for the rest of the encounter. I could see spending a standard action to help ensure that a powerful hit-entry daily power lands.

I doubt that spending a feat on it would be worthwhile until there were 2-3 such daily powers in a party, though. Given that there are restrictions on the type of attacks that Martial Ploy can work with, this makes it a corner-case feat. Definitely interesting for some parties though.

I wouldn't bother using it to help a Barbarian hit, though. More often than not, Barbarian rages and the effect line happens either way. If you are only getting damage out of Martial Ploy, we're back to expected damage calculations, and you have to compete with Commander's Strike again.

Something like Villain's Menace would be a better power to use it on. The difference between missing and hitting with that in an extended solo monster fight is pretty big. I'm sure there are better examples out there (especially dailies without a miss line) but I can't think of them right now.

Edit: Lead the Attack
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With a comment like that shouldn't your Paladin be in Leather armour?!



Heh, actually with the high Int needed for Warlord's Formation, the build does about as well in hide as in chainmail.  Heck, if you wanted to you could shift to strength primary and treat this more like a tactical warlord with paladin extras.  Yes, your Virtuous strike would technically be worse, but it's not like the reduced accuracy or damage will matter if you just use it for aid another attempts.

It looks like by itself,  you're best just using Martial Ploy on the big single hit attack powers.  However, if you choose to invest heavily in basic attacks you can hand out buffs and debuffs left and right every round if you're willing to sacrifice damage.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Power of Skill + Overwhelming Strike + Rushing Cleats + Polearm Momentum + Aid Another does give some nice easy proning.



You'd run into MAD issues tryin to get polearm momentum unless you drop another ability score hog like Warlord's Formation.  If you can juggle that, you could drop Net Training for fighter multiclassing, which is needed for Polearm Momentum.

That actually brings up an interesting point.  Would the extra damage on prone from Iron Vanguard or Draconic Arrogance be negated when it happens as a result of aid another?  It looks like that's a separate effect independant of the original attack, so it looks like it would work.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
I seem to recall that there were other feats that boost Aid Another as well.  It might well be worth it for someone to dig those out and see what they are.

Side note - if you can get your Animal Companion to Aid Another, there are animal companions that deal ongoing damage on MBA (as well as other things).

If you had a heavy blade and HBO (or an equivalent way to do the same thing), could you Aid Another with an opportunity attack?
I seem to recall that there were other feats that boost Aid Another as well.  It might well be worth it for someone to dig those out and see what they are.



Character builder gives us 4 on a search for "aid another", but 2 of those boost the +2 bonus, which we're no longer giving with Martial Ploy.  That leaves Martial Ploy and Warlord's Formation unless I'm missing something.  You get the same problem with Erathis Boon and Dujun of Erathis.

Side note - if you can get your Animal Companion to Aid Another, there are animal companions that deal ongoing damage on MBA (as well as other things).



That would be pretty nice if it works.  I'd think you could argue it working since you can do things like make some skill checks through an animal companion.

If you had a heavy blade and HBO (or an equivalent way to do the same thing), could you Aid Another with an opportunity attack?



I don't think so.  I looks like Aid Another is it's own action that uses a melee basic attack, rather than Aid Another being a subset of melee basic attacks.  If if did work that way it would really open things up as their are plenty of at wills that are only MBAs while making opportunity attacks or charging.

Heck, one of the ironies of this is that martial classes actually seem to have at wills that act as MBAs save under one of those two conditions.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Ah, right.  Aid Another is rather like Charge, I suppose, or Coup De Gras.

...and speaking of which, presumably you *could* still crit with Aid Another, resulting in the crit effects (though not the damage).  If you had an effect that would leave the enemy unconscious until they first received damage, you might be able to do something interesting in using Aid Another for the crit effects and then let someone else grab the actual damage.

Mostly, I was thinking that the overall "how do I exploit Aid Another" is actually a lot more interesting than the simple "how do I exploit Martial Ploy".

Things that help you improve you Aid Another action:
- direct boosts to Aid Another (like Martial Ploy)
- interesting riders on MBAs (like eldritch strike, or some of the paragon-feat MBA-boosters)
- interesting riders on weapon attacks in general (like the whip thing)
- things that let you cash in your weapon damage for interesting effects (like the net thing)
- interesting non-direct-damage crit effects/crit optimization (like jagged - 19-20 critrange and the crit effect is ongoing damage)
- Things that let you sacrifice hitroll for interesting effects on an MBA (can't think of any at the moment, but they might still be out there - and you're almost certain to hit with Aid Another regardless of the penalties you stack on it, so...)

Also, it's a last-ditch thing, but unless Aid Another targets enemies only (and I can't see why it would) you could use it as a way to apply some effect of your MBA (slide, say) to an ally without damaging them.  A standard action is rather pricey for the effect - you'd hope not to have reason to use it all that often - but options are always good, right?

Bizarre little question - currently, only the AC is specified for Aid Another MBAs.  What if the MBA you're using is specifically targeting a NAD?

Something I forgot to consider: The feat is "any martial class."  Comparing it to a taclord's Commander's Strike is perhaps unfair: that's probably the best way to get around having low damage of your own.  An inspiring warlord could consider this, as could a leader of any other power source MC'ed into a martial class.  I'm considering this for my bard now.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

Here is a Paladin|Warlord build I just finished.. looks rather impressive to me...

Put this guy next to a strikers.. and a controler/leader standing behind them = AMAZING.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Board, level 16
Human, Warlord|Paladin, Knight Commander
Warlord Leadership: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Will
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 15, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 20.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 14.



AC: 28 Fort: 22 Reflex: 26 Will: 25
HP: 103 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 25


TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +11, Diplomacy +20, Religion +18, Intimidate +20


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +13, Bluff +13, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +13, Insight +7, Nature +7, Perception +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +13, Thievery +6, Athletics +4


FEATS
Human: Whip Training
Level 1: Power of Love
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Rending Chains Student
Level 6: Martial Ploy
Level 8: Double Team
Level 10: Righteous Fury
Level 11: Warlord's Formation
Level 12: Lashing Flail
Level 14: Rending Chains Warmaster
Level 16: Justice Hammer


POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Inevitable Wave
Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Valorous Smite
Hybrid daily 1: Majestic Halo
Hybrid utility 2: Cunning Adjustment
Hybrid encounter 3: Inspiring War Cry
Hybrid daily 5: Exemplar of Action
Hybrid utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Hybrid encounter 7: Deadly Returns
Hybrid daily 9: Ready the Charge
Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders
Hybrid encounter 13: Pincer Maneuver (replaces Inspiring War Cry)
Hybrid daily 15: Knight's Defiance (replaces Majestic Halo)
Hybrid utility 16: Decisive Timing


ITEMS
Whip, Heavy Shield, Plate Armor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Alright, here a quirky example of how much you coul milk out of the feat if you really wanted to.

The new cheese here comes from using Power of Love with Virtuous Strike.  Virtuous Strike can be used as a melee basic attack.  Power of Love lets you forgo damage to to grant temporary hit points to up to two allies.  Neither this nor aid another requires the power do any damage in the first place, so you should be able to stack them.

Combine that with the other feats and by 12th level you're getting the following perks at a 95% hit chance (+13 (17 - 2 Righteous Fury - 2 Double Team) vs a fixed AC of 10):
  • 10 temporary hitpoints to 2 allies within 5 squares (Power of Love).

  • Up to 2 allies (Walord's Formation) get a free reroll on their next attack (Martial Ploy)

  • An ally adjecent to the target gets a +3 bonus to damage rolls against the target (Double Team).

  • The target is at -4 to all attacks (-2 from rattling via Righteous Fury, -2 from Whip Training).

  • The target can be slid 4 squares (Lashing Flail gives 1 square, +3 for a staggering weapon).

  • +2 to user's saving throws (Virtuous Strike).


So yeah, all those perks so long as the player doesn't roll a 1 sounds like a good deal for losing out on 7 points of damage (1d4 + 5 using the whip) per round.

For alternate dickery, swap the whip with a net.  You'd slow the target and slide them away 5 squares.  That's close enough for you to reach them but too far for them to reach you, so say hello to divine challenge damage every round.
 



A few extra things I found...

Rending Chains Student (MP2) =  slide 1.

Rending Chains Warmaster (MP2) = makes alot of warlord encounter powers usable as "melee basic attacks".. so you can aid another with those powers.. some interesting rider effects on those powers
This also allows you to completly dump your STR score.. since you only need to hit AC10.

Justice Hammer (Dra 381) = Critical on aid another for free daze effect
It seems like a good party favor for those times when you really need to land a shot. The DPR difference might be a wash, but being able to give a +5 bonus to landing that upcoming Anvil of Doom or Hammer Fall seems to be really worth it. There are times when it is really critical that a power lands (for example hitting a flying monster with your only proning attack, or keeping one from taking off with an attack that stuns or grabs), DPR be damned.
That's a lot of temp HP you can be giving out. With all those bonuses that's actually pretty cool.

The trick is if you can turn a MBA granting power into a MBA. Now THAT is when some serious exploitation can happen. Maybe with the new half-elf feats?
With the recent feat/power errata, feats like Lashing Flail no longer work with most of the MBA-substitute powers. The wording of most of those powers is now "can be used as" instead of "counts as", which means the feats that trigger off of a "melee basic attack" won't trigger off the substitute powers. I'd guess that the errata was to intentionally prevent this kind of overstacking of rider effects.

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With the recent feat/power errata, feats like Lashing Flail no longer work with most of the MBA-substitute powers. The wording of most of those powers is now "can be used as" instead of "counts as", which means the feats that trigger off of a "melee basic attack" won't trigger off the substitute powers. I'd guess that the errata was to intentionally prevent this kind of overstacking of rider effects.



so.. when using the Warlord encounter powers from Rending Chains Warmaster.. (instead of melee basic) .. you could NOT gain the Righteous Fury or Lashing Flail.. becouse the attacks are not treated as melee basics.. but with the virtuous strike power.. they would work fine since it counts as a melee basic.

All the other feats stack either way..

Knight command paragon path = +2 attacks for all adjacent allies, +1 ally defences when you AP, +CHA mod to allies opportunity attack damage rolls (paladin & warlord have powers that grant opportunity attacks).

Legendary General (Epic destiny) = Second wind for free healign to 1 ally, Allies can share action points.. and use other (and ignore the normal limits for 1 AP per encounter), Keep yourself alive = allies never die from negative hp.
Avenging Spirit + Legendary General.. with a minotaur striker ally.
Let the minotaur fall below 0. (Legendary General keeps him alive.. but he still gets his racial attack, and you get a free action point, which he can use.
I just wanted to take a second to compliment the OP and all those who have posted in this thread.  It is made of win.  I love reading about feats/powers that I would normally never consider taking, and finding out you can make a strong build around them

Great thread. I always thought about abusing Martial Ploy, but never got around playing a Warlord since the release MP.
I took the liberty to add it to the build collection. It's very Leader'ish and even falls well into the flavour of the Lazy Warlord...
With the recent feat/power errata, feats like Lashing Flail no longer work with most of the MBA-substitute powers. The wording of most of those powers is now "can be used as" instead of "counts as", which means the feats that trigger off of a "melee basic attack" won't trigger off the substitute powers. I'd guess that the errata was to intentionally prevent this kind of overstacking of rider effects.



To my understanding, "can be used as" is still fine.  It's "can be used in place of" that doesn't work.  Has there been additional errata of which I was unaware?
I am currently building a few characters for DND encounters this weekend and when i found this thread, i thought that i must try this!

Currently, my warrior of love is an LV 1 changeling (can do good for both genders) warlord/paladin of sune. What i don't understand is, what do both example builds in this thread need INT for? Many encounter and daily powers in haferkas build need STR to hit, why not rather go for that?

Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

It's mostly for "Warlord's Formation", a paragon feat which requires 17 Int.  It's costly but it's got this nice little perk "When you use the aid another action, you can aid up to two allies."  Combined with Martial Ploy that's 2 ally rerolls per turn.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
What i don't understand is, what do both example builds in this thread need INT for?


Roleplaying reasons maybe. Probably someone don't want to play a powerfull but stupid ****. Wink

Thanks for the info, i created haferkas LV 16 build to take a look and it seemed interesting to say the least. But it has a lot of STR based daily and encounter powers, so i'm not sure how well this plays on high levels. "Martial Ploy" alone with the "Power of Love" is already powerful (doubling allies crit chance and stuff).

Anyways, i could potentially dump INT as changeling on low levels and retrain it later on (in LFR, as you can retrain anything except base class and race).  I could go with DEX instead. I lose some minor knowledge  skill, but gain higher INI and some movement skills.

I always hated the design of DND 4.0, that chances to hit are so low (about 50%) and needing to take numerous feats to offset this. Now i finally found i way to circumvent this.

@Acrylium: This is CharOp not the RP Op forum, so i doubt someone would pump a stat for RP reasons here instead for optimisation.
But i have to admit, that i highly favor "whip training" over "net training", simply for RP reasons. With a net i slow an opponent i hit (and it can be thrown), while the whip only gives him -2 to attack rolls againt a single ally, so mechanically the net would be stronger.

A warrior(ess) of love simply needs a whip, there's no way around that!

Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

I agree with the sentiment.  However, I will say that the whip does have a couple points going for it.  First off, it is slightly more accurate than the net.  This is neglible for your aid another attempts, but it does help with any of your other powers.

The second and more significant edge is it has reach.  That opens up some interesting tactical options such as attacking and challenging a target from behind an ally.  If done right you can create a cache 22 scenario where they'd suck up an OA from your ally to reach you or suffer your Divine Challenge if they don't.  Pick an ally with a nasty OA and give them the whip bonus and you've got a nasty combo.

True, the net has range, but you can't use that with you aid another attempts as they're melee only.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
My fault. I didn't realize CharOp means just making a character most powerfull in combat situations besides anything else. In my notion CharOp could also mean making a character most interesting and fun for playing.
My fault. I didn't realize CharOp means just making a character most powerfull in combat situations besides anything else. In my notion CharOp could also mean making a character most interesting and fun for playing.

Both are valid options.  The thing about CharOp is it's really about optimizing a character for something in particular.  This is often damage output but can also be skill use, bonuses/penalties applied, healing granted per surge, etc.  But you'll notice that it's usually a mathematical, quantifiable optimization.  Numbers are generally king on the CharOp board.  So since "fun" can't be quantified, often the only real way to ask CharOp how to make a fun character is to give them a specific goal.

Example: "I have a lot of fun moving around the battlefield during my turn, outmaneuvering the enemies, but don't want to get killed/lose much damage output for the mobility.  Can you guys help teak my character to do this, so I keep having fun playing the character?"  It ahs a quantifiable goal that is "fun", so they can do something about it.  Simply saying "I want a fun character with this backstory," is often not really enough direction.

My point is that "fun" isn't a number, and so it's not usually something people on this board try to optimize.
"Besides, pushing someone over a pit is still entirely 2D... it just becomes 3D rather quickly afterwards." ~ yesnomu "Mind you, that doesn't change the fact that the poor str-priest is cowering in the corner wondering what horrible thing it was that he did that makes daddy keep hitting him so much, but it's not like the nerf was senseless." ~ SanityFaerie
Right, there's a seperate board for "fun chacter with a backstory".

This is primaraly a math board.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Fun is hard to quantify but there are some builds that try to optimize fun on CO.  I would count something like Mr. Stupid as optimized for fun. 
So below that paragon feat, Int is not really needed?

I am really excited about the possibility of this build. I've just started playing and I love the Leader role (not so much the healing side of it, though).

It looks incredibly fun, and when built the right way actually effective.



One thing I'm confused about. The Compendium seems to have a different wording for Aid Another than what was referenced in the OP.

In fact, in the compendium, it appears that there is no attack roll at all, just an expenditure of a standard action.

Are we all sure that this still works the same way?
This thread is a year old, and based on an Aid Another that has since been heavily errata'd.