3/31/2010 BoaB: "Call Him the Lorax"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Why does the article keep referring to the Joraga Treespeaker as a 'him' when she clearly has breasts?
Wizards really wants those baneslayer's out turn three
That elf is semi bonkers.  I like it. :D

With couple of these guys, and a Elvish Archdruid out, things would get crazy pretty quick.
I havn't cared for most of the other level up cards but this one is great even if you just level her once.
I love how the battle cry is "sleeve it up, elves are back!" as though they ever really left. I mean, its not like there were any good elves around, plaguing every casual and tribal game with their absurdity.

I'm so down on this whole block, really. They touted it as a "plane unlike anything we'd ever seen before!" They teased us with how different it all was going to be. And I guess it kinda was, except for the same old elves and goblins we've had for decades.

Oh, and the tribal sub-theme that we devoted a block to just one block ago.

And the storyline progression of "Introduce a plane, rumors of an epic worldchanging event surface, said event happens" that we've seen now for, oh, I dunno, about the last 6 blocks straight.

So you know, other than things being much the same, they're totally different and new. Oi.


Plus, the whole leveling up thing: really, did we need to template all new cards when we could have easily just had it read, "Put a +1/+1 couner on such-and such for 2 mana. When it has 2 counters it has X. When it has 4 counters it gains Y."

Ok, the old guy is done sucking things up now. Go back to your business, folks.
I havn't cared for most of the other level up cards but this one is great even if you just level him once.

No it isn't.

For a total of 1GG, we've got something almost on par with a Fyndhorn Elder.
For a grand total of 5GGGGGG, it's essentially two Priest of Titanias that require overextending your own elves for the same net effect.  Oh, and that "two priests" can be killed with a single killspell (and very likely long before 'levelling up' enough to matter).

The Dave Price Rule
Dave has this rule, see. When you see a weird card and you don't know why someone is playing it ..."

"You kill it on the spot."


"That's right. You kill it on the spot."


Why does the article keep referring to the Joraga Treespeaker as a 'him' when she clearly has breasts?


those are actually mana-producing orbs.  that's why it allows you to tap for 2.
I havn't cared for most of the other level up cards but this one is great even if you just level him once.

No it isn't.

For a total of 1GG, we've got something almost on par with a Fyndhorn Elder.
For a grand total of 5GGGGGG, it's essentially two Priest of Titanias that require overextending your own elves for the same net effect.  Oh, and that "two priests" can be killed with a single killspell (and very likely long before 'levelling up' enough to matter).



We all got our own opinions, no need to be rude about it. Anyway I like it and thats all that matters to me.

No it isn't.

For a total of 1GG, we've got something almost on par with a Fyndhorn Elder."





Your evaluation abilities are lacking badly if you think Fyndhorn Elder is a better card. Besides she will be leveled up 99%+ of the time only once, and while you don't get to three mana on turn 2 like with Llanowar Elves (which is probably a better card overall), you are likely to reach 5 mana on turn 3 barring removal from opponent. Later in the game, there are many more scenarios where she's better card to have than Llanowar Elves than vice versa.
Later in the game, there are many more scenarios where she's better card to have than Llanowar Elves than vice versa.

Ah.
I'll reserve further blathering on the matter until after we see how "Rise of the Fatties" works out.

No it isn't.

For a total of 1GG, we've got something almost on par with a Fyndhorn Elder."





Your evaluation abilities are lacking badly if you think Fyndhorn Elder is a better card. Besides she will be leveled up 99%+ of the time only once, and while you don't get to three mana on turn 2 like with Llanowar Elves (which is probably a better card overall), you are likely to reach 5 mana on turn 3 barring removal from opponent. Later in the game, there are many more scenarios where she's better card to have than Llanowar Elves than vice versa.

Agreed. It is so much better than Fyndhorn Elder. Taps the turn it gains the ability(assuming you dropped it on turn one, like a good player), allows for five mana turn three, and even if it gets killed, you just drop something on turn three. Hmm, what three drops does green have that are rediculous and need immediate answers?
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
Please, call him the Lorax!
Please, call her a her!
Please, call him the Lorax!
Please, call her a her!

Clearly, there are sex-changing traps in RoE.  Or maybe that was Munchkin.
It is so much better than Fyndhorn Elder.

I'll grant you that.  Some sort of 'Echo 0' Elder for G.

"Conveniently, if you do not have anything to do with the two mana, you can simply use its ability to level up again."


Exactly!  That's the broken thing...



 

I can´t avoid the impression that this big-breasted Lorax-Guy Wink is simply not playworthy. For 1 Mana its just a very very bad filler - so you at least need another 2 mana (or another turn) to turn it into a Fyndhorn Elder (which isn´t excatly an awesome  card either) - Assuming we play it on turn 1 and kicker it turn 2 -> we still only have 2 mana in the second turn and wasted two turns without affecting the game at all. It can´t attack, it can´t block, and just hope your opponent doesn´t kill it. Assuming this play lasted until turn 3 - now you really need a good 5 mana spell (otherwise it would´ve been much easier to just play Llanowar Elves).

That´s the problem, this card just can´t compete with Llanowar Elves, which don´t need further mana/time investment. Lorax *sometimes* speeds up your mana base - Llanowar Elves do it all the time - and the most important thing: you have 3 mana on turn 2, which is better than "maybe 5 mana on turn 3".

Yeah its better than Fyndhorn Elder - sadly the Elder isn´t a playworthy card either. And it really doesn´t matter that you can use the additional mana to kicker it every turn - if a manaacceleration creature sits around useless for 5 turns something went wrong...
1) This elf is clearly female. I won't be calling her a "him" any time soon.

2) Where's the proofreader for this article? Or editor, or even a spellchecker?
"Eldrazi like like Kozilek"
"hinderences"
"feasable"
"Sandard"
Ugh.

3) I like this level up creature more than a few others I've seen. Level Up is going to be good in casual games if you can stall the board, like, say, with a bunch of creatures with defender.
Incidentally, this creature goes quite well with Quest for Renewal.
You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid

I have been unimpressed with the level up creatures and this one hasn't changed my mind. The level up creatures look to be, at best, limited (and maybe casual) fodder at best.

As with the other level up creatures, you need to spend ridiculous amounts of mana to get any real action of of them. The comment that Treespeaker is bringing back elves is funny, where did elves go exactly? If I play an elf deck, it would not be sporting the Treespeaker, maybe come October, but I doubt it.


Let's see currently we have:


T1: Land, Llanowar or Arbor Elf


T2: Land, Elvish Archdruid.

So for T3, we have 2 2/2's and if we play a land, 6 mana available.

With Treespeaker:

T1: Land, Treespeaker

T2: Land; Level Up Treespeaker

So for turn 3, we have 1 1/2 and if we play a land, 5 mana available. So here we can dump more mana to level up more or play something @ 5 mana. I'll pass.

I would much rather prefer the board presence that scenario 1 provides.

You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid



well....at least it looks prettier..

I think I would prefer overgrown battlement over this in limited...


I have been unimpressed with the level up creatures and this one hasn't changed my mind. The level up creatures look to be, at best, limited (and maybe casual) fodder at best.

As with the other level up creatures, you need to spend ridiculous amounts of mana to get any real action of of them. The comment that Treespeaker is bringing back elves is funny, where did elves go exactly? If I play an elf deck, it would not be sporting the Treespeaker, maybe come October, but I doubt it.


Let's see currently we have:


T1: Land, Llanowar or Arbor Elf


T2: Land, Elvish Archdruid.

So for T3, we have 2 2/2's and if we play a land, 6 mana available.

With Treespeaker:

T1: Land, Treespeaker

T2: Land; Level Up Treespeaker

So for turn 3, we have 1 1/2 and if we play a land, 5 mana available. So here we can dump more mana to level up more or play something @ 5 mana. I'll pass.

I would much rather prefer the board presence that scenario 1 provides.





turn 2 you'd level up treespeaker and then drop 2 llanowar elves so now turn 3 you've got 7 mana

I really do like level up. I don't think it's going to be some crazy mechanic that is going to make an impact in extended but it is a nice little trick and many of the level up creatures previewed so far will be standard playable. For example figure of destiny (who is essentially a level up creature) was heavily played in standard but didn't do much in extended because the format is so much quicker. Level up is also comparable to multikicker in a lot of ways. I appreciate that it is a new interesting take on Magic cards without being broken and overpowered. Plus I doubt we've seen the best of these cards yet.
Don't be too smart to have fun
I can´t avoid the impression that this big-breasted Lorax-Guy is simply not playworthy. For 1 Mana its just a very very bad filler - so you at least need another 2 mana (or another turn) to turn it into a Fyndhorn Elder (which isn´t excatly an awesome  card either) - Assuming we play it on turn 1 and kicker it turn 2 -> we still only have 2 mana in the second turn and wasted two turns without affecting the game at all. It can´t attack, it can´t block, and just hope your opponent doesn´t kill it. Assuming this play lasted until turn 3 - now you really need a good 5 mana spell (otherwise it would´ve been much easier to just play Llanowar Elves).

That´s the problem, this card just can´t compete with Llanowar Elves, which don´t need further mana/time investment. Lorax *sometimes* speeds up your mana base - Llanowar Elves do it all the time - and the most important thing: you have 3 mana on turn 2, which is better than "maybe 5 mana on turn 3".

Yeah its better than Fyndhorn Elder - sadly the Elder isn´t a playworthy card either. And it really doesn´t matter that you can use the additional mana to kicker it every turn - if a manaacceleration creature sits around useless for 5 turns something went wrong...



You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid




I have been unimpressed with the level up creatures and this one hasn't changed my mind. The level up creatures look to be, at best, limited (and maybe casual) fodder at best.

As with the other level up creatures, you need to spend ridiculous amounts of mana to get any real action of of them. The comment that Treespeaker is bringing back elves is funny, where did elves go exactly? If I play an elf deck, it would not be sporting the Treespeaker, maybe come October, but I doubt it.


Let's see currently we have:


T1: Land, Llanowar or Arbor Elf


T2: Land, Elvish Archdruid.

So for T3, we have 2 2/2's and if we play a land, 6 mana available.

With Treespeaker:

T1: Land, Treespeaker

T2: Land; Level Up Treespeaker

So for turn 3, we have 1 1/2 and if we play a land, 5 mana available. So here we can dump more mana to level up more or play something @ 5 mana. I'll pass.

I would much rather prefer the board presence that scenario 1 provides.



the one thing many of you fail to notice(except you Warrior57, although you still don't realize it's good) is that it taps for two green on turn two.
T1: Forest, Treespeaker
T2:Level up Speaker, two Llanowar elves.
T3: Khalni Hydra, Wolfbriar Kicked three Times, Joraga Warcaller Kicked three times, Kaldorian Behemoth, two Leatherback Baloths. Nissa Revane and Elvish archdruid.

And those are just the things off the top of my head. Treespeaker let green do what they haven't been able to do in a while, get big, must-deal-with fatties into play early, or get rediculous board position that must be answered by a wrath effect.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
I can´t avoid the impression that this big-breasted Lorax-Guy is simply not playworthy. For 1 Mana its just a very very bad filler - so you at least need another 2 mana (or another turn) to turn it into a Fyndhorn Elder (which isn´t excatly an awesome  card either) - Assuming we play it on turn 1 and kicker it turn 2 -> we still only have 2 mana in the second turn and wasted two turns without affecting the game at all. It can´t attack, it can´t block, and just hope your opponent doesn´t kill it. Assuming this play lasted until turn 3 - now you really need a good 5 mana spell (otherwise it would´ve been much easier to just play Llanowar Elves).

That´s the problem, this card just can´t compete with Llanowar Elves, which don´t need further mana/time investment. Lorax *sometimes* speeds up your mana base - Llanowar Elves do it all the time - and the most important thing: you have 3 mana on turn 2, which is better than "maybe 5 mana on turn 3".

Yeah its better than Fyndhorn Elder - sadly the Elder isn´t a playworthy card either. And it really doesn´t matter that you can use the additional mana to kicker it every turn - if a manaacceleration creature sits around useless for 5 turns something went wrong...



You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid



I have been unimpressed with the level up creatures and this one hasn't changed my mind. The level up creatures look to be, at best, limited (and maybe casual) fodder at best.

As with the other level up creatures, you need to spend ridiculous amounts of mana to get any real action of of them. The comment that Treespeaker is bringing back elves is funny, where did elves go exactly? If I play an elf deck, it would not be sporting the Treespeaker, maybe come October, but I doubt it.


Let's see currently we have:


T1: Land, Llanowar or Arbor Elf


T2: Land, Elvish Archdruid.

So for T3, we have 2 2/2's and if we play a land, 6 mana available.

With Treespeaker:

T1: Land, Treespeaker

T2: Land; Level Up Treespeaker

So for turn 3, we have 1 1/2 and if we play a land, 5 mana available. So here we can dump more mana to level up more or play something @ 5 mana. I'll pass.

I would much rather prefer the board presence that scenario 1 provides.



the one thing many of you fail to notice(except you Warrior57, although you still don't realize it's good) is that it taps for two green on turn two.
T1: Forest, Treespeaker
T2:Level up Speaker, two Llanowar elves.
T3: Khalni Hydra, Wolfbriar Kicked three Times, Joraga Warcaller Kicked three times, Kaldorian Behemoth, two Leatherback Baloths. Nissa Revane and Elvish archdruid.

And those are just the things off the top of my head. Treespeaker let green do what they haven't been able to do in a while, get big, must-deal-with fatties into play early, or get rediculous board position that must be answered by a wrath effect.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
Why does the article keep referring to the Joraga Treespeaker as a 'him' when she clearly has breasts?


those are actually mana-producing orbs.  that's why it allows you to tap for 2.


So what does it mean, when all Elves get the ability to tap for 2 mana??? And she can be easily mistaken for a male. Her breasts barely touch each other. In magic, this makes her a male! Look at this token

@ the art:
Beside the fact, that her elven rope (or her magic) creates a huge push-up effect, does she have spears??? No bow and arrows? I'm surprised! Good job! But why are there birds in the background? They look like printing mistakes... The paper strips remind me of "Purity Seals" from Warhammer 40k. So they feel wrong.

But what I don't like at all:
The effect makes her produce green mana (the symbols are trees) and she might grant this ability other elves as well. But there are no trees in the background (she tortures the tree in the foreground with wax & you can barely call this a tree) and there is no hint of other elves. So I guess this is a picture swap.

@ the card:
Once and for all: I HATE THE DESIGN!!! Who was that genius with the "level up" design? There is no alternative magic-card backside and the timespiral card design didn't find much supporters either. But both ideas were MUCH better than this mess.

The "level 1-4" separations on the left side are to big (who needs the "level" reminder?) and noone needs an oversized arrow. Where else could you have printed the effect??? And the worst: 3 P/T ratings? Maybe R&D should invest in better printers so they don't have to test these cards on black/white proxies!!! Come on! We have the technology to do this better!! Is the normal +0/+1 statement to much calculation for a typical WotC customer???

Agree with it or not - the bottom half is just a reminder for the card that isn't important for me at all! I would rather play a game with textless cards and have a small checklist if I forget the exact wording. So do not push my focus downwards by printing 2 oversized arrows and 3 P/T containers on the bottom half!!!

@ the effect:
Stupid. The level up effect feels like an echo/kicker/suspend mix failure. If you play it on turn 3, I would have preferred a Fyndhorn Elder with haste or a version- plain & simple. If you play it on turn 1, it feels so stupid, that the cost for the level up is negated by her tap ability. So what does "level up" mean to you WotC, if a creature can do it all by itself/herself? This feels like a druid summoning bears to slaughter them right away for XPs! With each new level he get's more powerful pets for even more XPs.

And I appreciate the new Vine Trellis card (Overgrown Battlement) much more and feel disappointed by the fact that there is more than one green card with a plain "add ..." effect in RoE. That feels like a lack of creativity for other mana-acceleration options. So if this is all R&D can do, the Great Design Search and the Judges back than did a poor job. (most cards back then feel better than this one)
Yeah, a lot of people in this thread should just give up on card evaluation entirely. Please.

Now I know this isn't as sick as JVL is making it out to be, but I'd just chalk that up as the "Evan Erwin effect." This card is still very good.

Evaluating versatile cards as only one of their possible outcomes is just so idiotic it's not even funny. Spite/Malice saw a good amount of play, but "it's only a bad Dark Banishing" or "it's only a really bad Negate" durrrrrr.

First of all, what makes this infinitely better than Fyndhorn Elder is that you get the mana on the third turn, rather than having to play it on the third turn. But what almost all of you seem to be overlooking is that YOU STILL GET YOUR 2 MANA ON THE SECOND TURN. This is of course if you don't walk into a removal spell (which is the one situation where this creature can be bad - zoman, not skill-testing play, DO NOT WANT!). And that doesn't just have to be spent on leveling her up again like some people insist, in fact, getting her past her 2nd ability is only very rarely going to happen (it adds to versatility late-game, but it's far from a selling point). No, instead you just get to have a normal second turn (more on this later) and then a sick third turn, all for the price of a 1 mana creature and avoiding a removal spell. Then of course there's the fact that you can play her as "just" a Fyndhorn Elder later on AND quickly upgrade her to Priest status if you have silly things to do with extra mana like Omnath or Wolfbriar.

Now, as far as her vs. Llanowar Elves: it really isn't possible to determine which is better, because they both aim to do different things. If you're trying to cast fatties/spend big mana, you'd probably prefer Treespeaker. If you're just trying to curve out with strong threats like Leatherback Baloth, you'd probably prefer Llanowar. Any elves mana deck (including the elves version of Eldrazi Green) will most likely want to play both. Now I am a realist and will admit the one big failing of Treespeaker in this comparison: Llanowar, by giving you the extra mana on your second turn, dodges removal a bit better, because even though you don't lose anything on the second turn with Treaspeaker (unless you walk into instant removal, which is less likely this early) she does have to survive till the third turn for you actually to gain anything, which is less likely than Llanowar surviving till the second turn. This basically makes it a risk vs. reward comparison however, where Llanowar is more of a sure thing.

And Qmark, quoting the Dave Price thing... I don't even know what to say... When you see rumor mill threads of new powerful creatures and people post "dies to removal" you must not realize they're being satirical and actually laughing AT people like you, do you? So please, allow me...

DIES TO REMOVAL.
Yes, its a little better than most people seem to have first realized because the first Level Up is free thanks to her ability to tap for two immediately.  So you don't have to waste your second turn.  You just get a Fyndhorn Elder+ for free, assuming you have the second land.  You can still hit your green two drop.

But after that, there isn't much more anyone would want with her as the investment is far to great to continue leveling up.

She will help dropping those huge Eldrazi in limited, but like most cards will have no constructed impact.
You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid



well....at least it looks prettier..

I think I would prefer overgrown battlement over this in limited...


Well, unless you control other creatures with defender, Treespeaker allows you to cast your Eldrazi faster than the Battlement. Of course, playing other creatures with defender may end up very easy and a good thing to do, making the Battlement the better card in context, but still.

The important thing people don't seem to realize is that cards like the Treespeaker, Greenweaver Druid and Overgrown Battlement with other defenders gain a lot of value over cards like Llanowar Elves when your goal is to cast something that costs truly huge amounts of mana (more than 6). Recently, there's been almost no cards worth paying that much, so people aren't used to think about it, but the Eldrazi very much change that. Hence why R&D put that kind of accelarators, slower to deploy but that produce more, into the set and into the few previous ones. I wouldn't be surprised if people start playing a few Greenweaver Druids in green Eldrazi mana ramp decks to complement their Treespeakers, as they have a lot of value in that kind of deck.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
I can´t avoid the impression that this big-breasted Lorax-Guy is simply not playworthy. For 1 Mana its just a very very bad filler - so you at least need another 2 mana (or another turn) to turn it into a Fyndhorn Elder (which isn´t excatly an awesome  card either) - Assuming we play it on turn 1 and kicker it turn 2 -> we still only have 2 mana in the second turn and wasted two turns without affecting the game at all. It can´t attack, it can´t block, and just hope your opponent doesn´t kill it. Assuming this play lasted until turn 3 - now you really need a good 5 mana spell (otherwise it would´ve been much easier to just play Llanowar Elves).

That´s the problem, this card just can´t compete with Llanowar Elves, which don´t need further mana/time investment. Lorax *sometimes* speeds up your mana base - Llanowar Elves do it all the time - and the most important thing: you have 3 mana on turn 2, which is better than "maybe 5 mana on turn 3".

Yeah its better than Fyndhorn Elder - sadly the Elder isn´t a playworthy card either. And it really doesn´t matter that you can use the additional mana to kicker it every turn - if a manaacceleration creature sits around useless for 5 turns something went wrong...



You know, if this elf is as good as Jake makes it, then everyone would already play Greenweaver Druid




I have been unimpressed with the level up creatures and this one hasn't changed my mind. The level up creatures look to be, at best, limited (and maybe casual) fodder at best.

As with the other level up creatures, you need to spend ridiculous amounts of mana to get any real action of of them. The comment that Treespeaker is bringing back elves is funny, where did elves go exactly? If I play an elf deck, it would not be sporting the Treespeaker, maybe come October, but I doubt it.


Let's see currently we have:


T1: Land, Llanowar or Arbor Elf


T2: Land, Elvish Archdruid.

So for T3, we have 2 2/2's and if we play a land, 6 mana available.

With Treespeaker:

T1: Land, Treespeaker

T2: Land; Level Up Treespeaker

So for turn 3, we have 1 1/2 and if we play a land, 5 mana available. So here we can dump more mana to level up more or play something @ 5 mana. I'll pass.

I would much rather prefer the board presence that scenario 1 provides.



the one thing many of you fail to notice(except you Warrior57, although you still don't realize it's good) is that it taps for two green on turn two.
T1: Forest, Treespeaker
T2:Level up Speaker, two Llanowar elves.
T3: Khalni Hydra, Wolfbriar Kicked three Times, Joraga Warcaller Kicked three times, Kaldorian Behemoth, two Leatherback Baloths. Nissa Revane and Elvish archdruid.

And those are just the things off the top of my head. Treespeaker let green do what they haven't been able to do in a while, get big, must-deal-with fatties into play early, or get rediculous board position that must be answered by a wrath effect.



This is still unimpressive. Treespeaker does tap for 2 on turn 2 if you level up, but Treespeaker also makes you over commit to be effective. Turn 2 Treespeaker, 2 llanowar elves it great but leaves you open to any mass removal. a 1/2 and two 1/1's are not too tough to deal with and not very opposing. Warcaller or Archdruid pumps your guys and Archdruid can accelerate as well as and better than Treespeaker.  If you cannot get your hands on an Archdruid, then I guess Treespeaker could be an okay replacement for mana-acceleration purposes. 

the one thing many of you fail to notice(except you Warrior57, although you still don't realize it's good) is that it taps for two green on turn two.
T1: Forest, Treespeaker
T2:Level up Speaker, two Llanowar elves.
T3: Khalni Hydra, Wolfbriar Kicked three Times, Joraga Warcaller Kicked three times, Kaldorian Behemoth, two Leatherback Baloths. Nissa Revane and Elvish archdruid.

And those are just the things off the top of my head. Treespeaker let green do what they haven't been able to do in a while, get big, must-deal-with fatties into play early, or get rediculous board position that must be answered by a wrath effect.



A card isn´t good because you can imagine some incredible powerful (but unlikley) play with it. In your example 3 of your handcards are mana creatures - you´re in deep trouble if that *awesome* turn 3 drop (Khalni Hydra?...) doesn´t win you the game right away. (How likley is it you can put off a start like that anyway?).

The problem with the Treespeaker is, unlike Llanowar Elves its not good on its own. You need to pay at least additional 2 mana before it affects the game at all! Not only is that quite slow, but also vulnerable to any kind of disruption.

Before I try to play an incredible expensive threat on turn 3, while completley emptying my hand, why not just play Leatherback Baloth on Turn 2 with the help of the friendly 1 mana elves/birds - stable & reliable Smile .

You can play 16 (4xplayset) 1-mana creatures in green at the moment which will net  you an additional mana, I don´t see how a slow, unreliable creature like the treespeaker will have any impact.
This is still unimpressive. Treespeaker does tap for 2 on turn 2 if you level up, but Treespeaker also makes you over commit to be effective. Turn 2 Treespeaker, 2 llanowar elves it great but leaves you open to any mass removal. a 1/2 and two 1/1's are not too tough to deal with and not very opposing. Warcaller or Archdruid pumps your guys and Archdruid can accelerate as well as and better than Treespeaker.  If you cannot get your hands on an Archdruid, then I guess Treespeaker could be an okay replacement for mana-acceleration purposes.



Not always completely true. First there are the Lotus Cobra examples (ie casting the cobra after leveling up on turn 2, which allow for very explosive turn 3's and don't require 3 cards on the board). Or how about this relatively simple and not overly uncommon line of play:

Turn 1: Forest, Treespeaker.
Turn 2: Forest, level up, Elvish Visionary.
Turn 3: Joraga Warcaller kicked twice, swing with Visionary.

Now you've attacked with a 3/3 on turn 3 and have a board of 3/3, 3/3, and 3/4 while only investing 2 cards. On the draw this is still relatively weak to DoJ, but on the play it's very strong; and this is why you have Eldrazi Monument as well. Not to mention, you have to remember that you're playing a green deck. Saying an opening with a green deck is weak to sweepers is like worrying about a combo deck being weak to counters or discard. Yeah, you knew that when you picked up this kind of deck. Not to mention that it's only a small section of the metagame that are actually playing sweepers right now, with Jund at 40% you should be more worried about just having the Treespeaker bolted or Terminated before the third turn, which actually makes the 2x elves on turn 2 play not as horrible.

not alot of productive uses for 2 mana on turn 2

maybe:

explore playing an oran-rief
nissa's chosen
lotus cobra...? for something 6 mana and awful


he is a nice gift for those unable to pay for 15$ hierarchs


Evaluating versatile cards as only one of their possible outcomes is just so idiotic it's not even funny. Spite/Malice saw a good amount of play, but "it's only a bad Dark Banishing" or "it's only a really bad Negate" durrrrrr.




Spite/Malice is an expensive but flexible card, which makes it playable (unless the format is just to fast of coure). Treespeaker isn´t, its a useless 1/1 vanilla creature on its own with a narrow timeframe for mana acceleration. It only chance to see some serious play is an extremely slow format (ok, that might be possible with RoE), but its not a "good card".


First of all, what makes this infinitely better than Fyndhorn Elder is that you get the mana on the third turn, rather than having to play it on the third turn. But what almost all of you seem to be overlooking is that YOU STILL GET YOUR 2 MANA ON THE SECOND TURN. This is of course if you don't walk into a removal spell (which is the one situation where this creature can be bad - zoman, not skill-testing play, DO NOT WANT!). And that doesn't just have to be spent on leveling her up again like some people insist, in fact, getting her past her 2nd ability is only very rarely going to happen (it adds to versatility late-game, but it's far from a selling point). No, instead you just get to have a normal second turn (more on this later) and then a sick third turn, all for the price of a 1 mana creature and avoiding a removal spell. Then of course there's the fact that you can play her as "just" a Fyndhorn Elder later on AND quickly upgrade her to Priest status if you have silly things to do with extra mana like Omnath or Wolfbriar.




And Qmark, quoting the Dave Price thing... I don't even know what to say... When you see rumor mill threads of new powerful creatures and people post "dies to removal" you must not realize they're being satirical and actually laughing AT people like you, do you? So please, allow me...

DIES TO REMOVAL.



But you give your opponent the opportunity to seriously cripple your early game , which will very likely cost you the game (no first turn play, no second turn play and no additional mana in turn 3 - which should hurt pretty badly since it seems you build a mana-hungry ramp deck - otherwhise why bother playing treespeaker?) And how flexible is a Fyndhorn Elder, a card which you don´t really want to play.

A creature isn´t bad because it dies to removal, but the "dies to removal"-argument begins to matter if you´ll need to put some heavy mana/time investment into it to make it useable, while removal usually needs no further effort (which is the case with Treespealker if you don´t play it like a regular Fyndhorn Elder).
 
In addition you´ll need to play some very expensive spells in your deck, to have a reason for a bigger mana acceleration (otherwise Llanowar Elves would automatically be the better choice). This is a another serious disadvantage, since you´ll allways run the risk not to be able to play those fatties. 





Evaluating versatile cards as only one of their possible outcomes is just so idiotic it's not even funny. Spite/Malice saw a good amount of play, but "it's only a bad Dark Banishing" or "it's only a really bad Negate" durrrrrr.




Spite/Malice is an expensive but flexible card, which makes it playable (unless the format is just to fast of coure). Treespeaker isn´t, its a useless 1/1 vanilla creature on its own with a narrow timeframe for mana acceleration. It only chance to see some serious play is an extremely slow format (ok, that might be possible with RoE), but its not a "good card".


First of all, what makes this infinitely better than Fyndhorn Elder is that you get the mana on the third turn, rather than having to play it on the third turn. But what almost all of you seem to be overlooking is that YOU STILL GET YOUR 2 MANA ON THE SECOND TURN. This is of course if you don't walk into a removal spell (which is the one situation where this creature can be bad - zoman, not skill-testing play, DO NOT WANT!). And that doesn't just have to be spent on leveling her up again like some people insist, in fact, getting her past her 2nd ability is only very rarely going to happen (it adds to versatility late-game, but it's far from a selling point). No, instead you just get to have a normal second turn (more on this later) and then a sick third turn, all for the price of a 1 mana creature and avoiding a removal spell. Then of course there's the fact that you can play her as "just" a Fyndhorn Elder later on AND quickly upgrade her to Priest status if you have silly things to do with extra mana like Omnath or Wolfbriar.




And Qmark, quoting the Dave Price thing... I don't even know what to say... When you see rumor mill threads of new powerful creatures and people post "dies to removal" you must not realize they're being satirical and actually laughing AT people like you, do you? So please, allow me...

DIES TO REMOVAL.



But you give your opponent the opportunity to seriously cripple your early game , which will very likely cost you the game (no first turn play, no second turn play and no additional mana in turn 3 - which should hurt pretty badly since it seems you build a mana-hungry ramp deck - otherwhise why bother playing treespeaker?) And how flexible is a Fyndhorn Elder, a card which you don´t really want to play.

A creature isn´t bad because it dies to removal, but the "dies to removal"-argument begins to matter if you´ll need to put some heavy mana/time investment into it to make it useable, while removal usually needs no further effort (which is the case with Treespealker if you don´t play it like a regular Fyndhorn Elder).
 
In addition you´ll need to play some very expensive spells in your deck, to have a reason for a bigger mana acceleration (otherwise Llanowar Elves would automatically be the better choice). This is a another serious disadvantage, since you´ll allways run the risk not to be able to play those fatties. 




You really just don't seem to get it, epitomized by your statement of "no first turn play, no second turn play." Please tell me, how do you come to this conclusion? YOU GET TWO MANA AFTER YOU LEVEL HER UP. The only way you don't get a second turn play is if you're somehow dumb enough to try leveling her up when your opponent leaves a red untapped (somehow I do see you falling for this, but most people wouldn't. And Jacob even addressed this in the article). On the draw there are a few more situations to watch out for, but they're all pretty uncommon.

Yes, it's much more likely that they'll kill her before your third turn though, but that's not crippling because you either cast some more mana elves on turn two (arbor elf, llanowar elves) if you're playing against a deck without sweepers (read: most decks currently) and are still poised for a big third turn - especially given that they just burned a removal spell on a mana-producer and now have less for the threats you'll be playing (this actually brings up an interesting decision-making process they need to make here: if they think you're going to cast just a big dude on turn 3, it actually makes sense for them to hold their removal to kill your actual threats and just leave you with a bunch of mana producing dorks, but then if you have something like a Wolfbriar you probably just win, etc.); or if you're playing against a deck with sweepers you might be able to just cast something like an elvish visionary (this is admittedly less likely for you to have, and is why match-ups for decks like these against control decks are worse).

As far as the whole "you'll need expensive spells to make this make sense" - do you have any idea what Eldrazi Green looks like these days, especially the elves version (where this card is obviously at its best fit)? Wolfbriar Elemental, Joraga Warcaller, Omnath, etc. - fine without a ton of mana, much better with mana. Damn, it sure sucks that I wont be able to get to... oh wait, I can totally still cast these! Man, you sure got me there.

And lastly, it doesn't have to be a choice of this versus Llanowar Elves. There's no reason for the Elves Eldrazi not to play this, Llanowar, and Arbor elves. Playing with 8 lords and Eldrazi Monument, you're never really going to hate having a bunch of 1/1 or 1/2 elves just sitting around.



You really just don't seem to get it, epitomized by your statement of "no first turn play, no second turn play." Please tell me, how do you come to this conclusion? YOU GET TWO MANA AFTER YOU LEVEL HER UP. The only way you don't get a second turn play is if you're somehow dumb enough to try leveling her up when your opponent leaves a red untapped (somehow I do see you falling for this, but most people wouldn't. And Jacob even addressed this in the article). On the draw there are a few more situations to watch out for, but they're all pretty uncommon.




I believe you´re the one who "doesn´t get it".

If your opponent just needs a single R mana open (just open! he doesn´t even need to have that lightning bolt, just the possibility that he MIGHT have it is enough) to  prevent you from following your deck stratgey and using the card you just played -thats a clear indication that this is a weak & vulnerable, unreliable (not playworthy!) card. Its not a matter of "just playing some other elves", if you can´t risk to Level up the speaker, you just suffered card disadvantage since you have a pointless vanilla 1 power creature with no impact on the board.



Yes, it's much more likely that they'll kill her before your third turn though, but that's not crippling because you either cast some more mana elves on turn two (arbor elf, llanowar elves) if you're playing against a deck without sweepers (read: most decks currently) and are still poised for a big third turn - especially given that they just burned a removal spell on a mana-producer and now have less for the threats you'll be playing (this actually brings up an interesting decision-making process they need to make here: if they think you're going to cast just a big dude on turn 3, it actually makes sense for them to hold their removal to kill your actual threats and just leave you with a bunch of mana producing dorks, but then if you have something like a Wolfbriar you probably just win, etc.); or if you're playing against a deck with sweepers you might be able to just cast something like an elvish visionary (this is admittedly less likely for you to have, and is why match-ups for decks like these against control decks are worse).




What? The guy with the lightning bolt holds all the aces here. He just waits if you´re willing to invest 2 mana for the Level up - if you are, he bolts and you lost a complete turn. If you don´t he bolts the other guy you just played or waits for your more important cards. Llanowar Elves are a different thing - here your opponent really needs to think if he should trade his removal for them before you ENTER your second turn (thats pretty fast!). But the Treespeaker is a no-brainer, just wait and see.



As far as the whole "you'll need expensive spells to make this make sense" - do you have any idea what Eldrazi Green looks like these days, especially the elves version (where this card is obviously at its best fit)? Wolfbriar Elemental, Joraga Warcaller, Omnath, etc. - fine without a ton of mana, much better with mana. Damn, it sure sucks that I wont be able to get to... oh wait, I can totally still cast these! Man, you sure got me there.

And lastly, it doesn't have to be a choice of this versus Llanowar Elves. There's no reason for the Elves Eldrazi not to play this, Llanowar, and Arbor elves. Playing with 8 lords and Eldrazi Monument, you're never really going to hate having a bunch of 1/1 or 1/2 elves just sitting around.




So now we´re talking about Eldrazi Green, not some kind of RoE-Ramp anymore?

Fine, why the heck should I bother playing a 1 mana Elf, with no impact on the game AT ALL unless I invest further mana into it? Because it doesn´t matter if she actually produces mana since my creatures are "fine without a ton of mana but much better with mana" ? - Sounds like a great plan! Here´s another: lets just play elves which allways generate mana (and faster) and forces your opponent to some decisions!

I have access to eight good & "powerful" 1-mana acceleration elves atm.

Seriously, you don´t pack 12 1-mana "dorks" (as you said) in Eldrazi Green, many don´t even play 8! That way your opponent won´t need sweepers if thats your deck plan - he handles the 2 creatures and/or the artifact that matters and you´re done.

Why does it always have to be elves?
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!


You really just don't seem to get it, epitomized by your statement of "no first turn play, no second turn play." Please tell me, how do you come to this conclusion? YOU GET TWO MANA AFTER YOU LEVEL HER UP. The only way you don't get a second turn play is if you're somehow dumb enough to try leveling her up when your opponent leaves a red untapped (somehow I do see you falling for this, but most people wouldn't. And Jacob even addressed this in the article). On the draw there are a few more situations to watch out for, but they're all pretty uncommon.




I believe you´re the one who "doesn´t get it".

If your opponent just needs a single R mana open (just open! he doesn´t even need to have that lightning bolt, just the possibility that he MIGHT have it is enough) to  prevent you from following your deck stratgey and using the card you just played -thats a clear indication that this is a weak & vulnerable, unreliable (not playworthy!) card. Its not a matter of "just playing some other elves", if you can´t risk to Level up the speaker, you just suffered card disadvantage since you have a pointless vanilla 1 power creature with no impact on the board.



Yes, it's much more likely that they'll kill her before your third turn though, but that's not crippling because you either cast some more mana elves on turn two (arbor elf, llanowar elves) if you're playing against a deck without sweepers (read: most decks currently) and are still poised for a big third turn - especially given that they just burned a removal spell on a mana-producer and now have less for the threats you'll be playing (this actually brings up an interesting decision-making process they need to make here: if they think you're going to cast just a big dude on turn 3, it actually makes sense for them to hold their removal to kill your actual threats and just leave you with a bunch of mana producing dorks, but then if you have something like a Wolfbriar you probably just win, etc.); or if you're playing against a deck with sweepers you might be able to just cast something like an elvish visionary (this is admittedly less likely for you to have, and is why match-ups for decks like these against control decks are worse).




What? The guy with the lightning bolt holds all the aces here. He just waits if you´re willing to invest 2 mana for the Level up - if you are, he bolts and you lost a complete turn. If you don´t he bolts the other guy you just played or waits for your more important cards. Llanowar Elves are a different thing - here your opponent really needs to think if he should trade his removal for them before you ENTER your second turn (thats pretty fast!). But the Treespeaker is a no-brainer, just wait and see.



As far as the whole "you'll need expensive spells to make this make sense" - do you have any idea what Eldrazi Green looks like these days, especially the elves version (where this card is obviously at its best fit)? Wolfbriar Elemental, Joraga Warcaller, Omnath, etc. - fine without a ton of mana, much better with mana. Damn, it sure sucks that I wont be able to get to... oh wait, I can totally still cast these! Man, you sure got me there.

And lastly, it doesn't have to be a choice of this versus Llanowar Elves. There's no reason for the Elves Eldrazi not to play this, Llanowar, and Arbor elves. Playing with 8 lords and Eldrazi Monument, you're never really going to hate having a bunch of 1/1 or 1/2 elves just sitting around.




So now we´re talking about Eldrazi Green, not some kind of RoE-Ramp anymore?

Fine, why the heck should I bother playing a 1 mana Elf, with no impact on the game AT ALL unless I invest further mana into it? Because it doesn´t matter if she actually produces mana since my creatures are "fine without a ton of mana but much better with mana" ? - Sounds like a great plan! Here´s another: lets just play elves which allways generate mana (and faster) and forces your opponent to some decisions!

I have access to eight good & "powerful" 1-mana acceleration elves atm.

Seriously, you don´t pack 12 1-mana "dorks" (as you said) in Eldrazi Green, many don´t even play 8! That way your opponent won´t need sweepers if thats your deck plan - he handles the 2 creatures and/or the artifact that matters and you´re done.



   Have you ever even played a mono green ramp/swarm deck? almost all the individual creatures die to any kind of removal, almost to the point that removal doesn't matter. Yes, bolting the Elves would not be the best for you, but a good green deck should usually recover. The only way that a deck like this could be blown out by removal is if your opponent had a whole grip full of it. Two land, three terminate, and two Smother would be bad news. Other than that, if one early removal spell kills you, you're either A) not playing well, or B) playing a bad deck.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
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but where DID the other fork come from?
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Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
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97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
Man, arguing with some people really just is pointless. Fortunately, I really will do anything I can to put off writing this paper.


I believe you´re the one who "doesn´t get it".

If your opponent just needs a single R mana open (just open! he doesn´t even need to have that lightning bolt, just the possibility that he MIGHT have it is enough) to  prevent you from following your deck stratgey and using the card you just played -thats a clear indication that this is a weak & vulnerable, unreliable (not playworthy!) card. Its not a matter of "just playing some other elves", if you can´t risk to Level up the speaker, you just suffered card disadvantage since you have a pointless vanilla 1 power creature with no impact on the board.



No, actually, I am the one that gets it and I'm afraid that you don't. That or you're just thinking of some idealized format that includes Lightning Bolts but isn't actually this standard. So tell me, how many decks in this format get to have a turn 1 play of Mountain - go? Yeah.. I'm still waiting.

So we've got Naya. Well, if you've read any tournament reports from a Naya player, they're usually looking for an opening hand that's a green source and a bird/hierarch, so it's HIGHLY unlikely that they can audible that into a "mountain-searching fetch - go" after seeing your Treespeaker. Even if they weren't looking for that starting hand, not a lot of their openers really would permit the bolt bluff. Next.

Jund. Hah. Hahaha. They don't even play mountain-searching fetches. Just about every one of their red sources comes into play tapped (especially on the first turn). Yeah, they may have the bolts but they're certainly not going to be able to leave it up. Next.

RDW/Boros. Okay, here you have a real contender for actually being able to leave R up and having the bolts. But first of all, this is a relatively small subsection of the metagame. Couple that with the fact that if my RDW/Boros opponent isn't playing a Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, etc. on the first turn just so he can bolt/bluff one of my mana producers, I'm not really that scared.

On the draw this becomes a more serious issue, but again if my opponent isn't getting to make any proactive plays in the first two turns just to prevent me from leveling up my one-drop, it's already having an effect on the game. This gets into the second point: assuming you're forced into playing around the bolt and just dropping some more elves, this is still great for you and makes him much more than a vanilla 1/1. Because now let's say you cast some combination of 2 arbor elves/llanowar elves (or even just one of them) on your second turn. What does your opponent (who's still not playing anything on his turn yet just to put you in this "situation") do? You say he kills the elf you played (hopefully you only played one). That's swell and all, but then he's right back in the same situation - he can't cast a three-drop on his turn because he still needs to keep mana open to keep you from leveling up on your turn. This is good for you because now your "vanilla 1/1" is completely changing the way your opponent is forced to play the game. Or he does just tap out on his turn, and then you level up and cast a three-drop of your own (elvish archdruid anyone?) and you have 2 must-kill targets before your fourth turn. None of this is bad.

He could just kill your Treespeaker after you cast the other elf(s), but this is no different than were you to be playing llanowar elves in the first place because he could just kill them before your turn and you're still not getting anything from your 1-drop.

So now we´re talking about Eldrazi Green, not some kind of RoE-Ramp anymore?



Was I ever talking about "some kind of RoE-Ramp?"


Fine, why the heck should I bother playing a 1 mana Elf, with no impact on the game AT ALL unless I invest further mana into it? Because it doesn´t matter if she actually produces mana since my creatures are "fine without a ton of mana but much better with mana" ? - Sounds like a great plan! Here´s another: lets just play elves which allways generate mana (and faster) and forces your opponent to some decisions!



Again, you don't actually have to invest any more mana into it because if it works it refunds that mana immediately, and I think I pointed out how it forces your opponent into making many decisions just to play around it going active (or they kill it and it becomes no different than any other 1 mana elf). If your opponent spends the first few turns playing around a 1-mana elf it has had far more of an impact than any number of llanowar elves could ever hope to. And even if they do and it's forced to sit around as a 1/1, it still becomes relevant later on thanks to the lords and Eldrazi Monument, just like any other elf does.

I have access to eight good & "powerful" 1-mana acceleration elves atm.

Seriously, you don´t pack 12 1-mana "dorks" (as you said) in Eldrazi Green, many don´t even play 8! That way your opponent won´t need sweepers if thats your deck plan - he handles the 2 creatures and/or the artifact that matters and you´re done.



Please, do tell me how you can just "handle" a Wolfbriar Elemental (which is pretty much an auto 4-of in every Eldrazi Green deck) or Bestial Menace (seeing more and more play in the aforementioned deck). Yeah, sweepers, I got that already. Please re-read "bad against control decks - small portion of the metagame - etc." And "artifacts?" What is anyone actually playing that can kill artifacts these days? Maelstrom Pulse. Those are rarely a 4-of in jund decks these days (and many are even cutting them altogether). Oblivion Ring. Mostly a 2-of, and played in many, many less decks than the pulse (please bear in mind this is all referring to pre-sideboarded decks, don't bother talking to me about how "X deck post-board has Quasali Pridemage" or whatever). Also, Oran-rief?

No... you really went about this argument the wrong way. The issue isn't the removal. The issue is Blightning (and BBE into Blightning) because when you play out your mana-producers quickly, your opponent can just mise you with Blightning and you lose your threats from your hand. And there's no real way to play around this without losing the advantage of ANY mana-producers. Read: why Jund is such a resilient deck.


   Have you ever even played a mono green ramp/swarm deck? almost all the individual creatures die to any kind of removal, almost to the point that removal doesn't matter. Yes, bolting the Elves would not be the best for you, but a good green deck should usually recover. The only way that a deck like this could be blown out by removal is if your opponent had a whole grip full of it. Two land, three terminate, and two Smother would be bad news. Other than that, if one early removal spell kills you, you're either A) not playing well, or B) playing a bad deck.



Maybe I did not make myself clear or used the wrong words. The problem here isn´t the simple fact the she dies to removal, but that you waste additional ressources and offer the opponent the opportunity to put you at a big disadvantage.

I try to explain it in depth. Lets assume you played the speaker on your first turn (instead of say, Llanowar Elf). Now you enter your second turn, drop a land. Your opponent has 1 red untapped - what do you do? Do you try to level her up or do you play some more elves?

If your opponent holds that lightning bolt and you spent 2 mana for the level up your in deep trouble - your opponent will bolt her and you wasted turn 1+2 and start turn 3 with no creature on board. You´re now at a serious tempo disadvantage.

If you don´t level her up and play another elf (or elves) your board position is better but this time you have a useless 1/1 vanilla creature on board. You wasted a card for a creature which has nearly no impact on the game. (And you opponent will save his removal for the important creatures to come (say Jorgan Warcaller, Elvish Archdruid). Effectively you suffer card disadvantage.

If you play a Llanowar Elf on the first turn instead it looks much better for you. Your opponent immediately needs to decide if he lets you enter your second turn with an additional third mana.
You have the mana right away, and don´t need to invest further ressources  (which you have to do with the Treespeaker). If he bolts your Llanowar Elf nothing happend, you traded 1:1 while not losing any speed or card quality.

Your opponent doesn´t need three Terminates and two Smothers. He just needs to pretend he has the Bolt - thats enough, because you will not risk to enter the third turn with an empty board facing a deck which features red burn. And you don´t want to play a 1/1 vanilla creature either because you will not win the game with it in a format which features 1 mana 2/2 haste or 2 mana 4/4 creatures.

That the reason why I believe the Treespeaker is simply not playworthy. Her disadvantages are to great, the mana acceleration she offer is to unreliable and weak compared to Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elf, Noble Hiearch or Arbor Elf.

P.S. Any further answer needs to wait for the next day, good night Wink.

to be honet, i highly doubt this card will see a level of play worthy of 4 pages of arguments...
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Why does it always have to be elves?



+1

I think a new creature should replace elves as the permanent green race. Like, cats for instance.
Man, arguing with some people really just is pointless. Fortunately, I really will do anything I can to put off writing this paper.



Have a discussion with me or let it be, but don´t give me pointless & insulting remarks.


No, actually, I am the one that gets it and I'm afraid that you don't. That or you're just thinking of some idealized format that includes Lightning Bolts but isn't actually this standard. So tell me, how many decks in this format get to have a turn 1 play of Mountain - go? Yeah.. I'm still waiting.
So we've got Naya. Well, if you've read any tournament reports from a Naya player, they're usually looking for an opening hand that's a green source and a bird/hierarch, so it's HIGHLY unlikely thats~



My answer would be Boros, its more or less heavy played in my region.
Lightning Bolt is played in most decks, and just as First-Turn Lightning isn´t allways the case/possibility the same will be true for First-Turn Treespeaker.



~...make any proactive plays in the first two turns just to prevent me from leveling up my one-drop, it's already having an effect on the game. This gets into the second point: assuming you're forced into playing around the bolt and just dropping some more elves, this is still great for you and makes him much more than a vanilla 1/1. Because now let's say you cast some combination of 2 arbor elves/llanowar elves (or even just one of them) on your second turn. What does your opponent (who's still not playing anything on his turn yet just to put you in this "situation") do? You say he kills the elf you played (hopefully you only played one). That's swell and all, but then he's right back in the same situation - he can't cast a three-drop on his turn because he still needs to keep mana open to keep you from leveling up on your turn. This is good for you because now your "vanilla 1/1" is completely changing the way your opponent is forced to play the game. Or he does just tap out on his turn, and then you level up and cast a three-drop of your own (elvish archdruid anyone?) and you have 2 must-kill targets before your fourth turn. None of this is bad.

He could just kill your Treespeaker after you cast the other elf(s), but this is no different than were you to be playing llanowar elves in the first place because he could just kill them before your turn and you're still not getting anything from your 1-drop.




I think you overrate the impact of the Treespeaker. Its not like your opponent NEEDS to prevent it turn after turn to level up, its just an easy way for him to prevent you from using it.  After 1-2 turns its mana acceleration just has not as much impact anymore - and you wasted these 1-2 turns with a mana-acceleration creature which, well doesn´t accelerate. The llanowar elf forces him to make a decision - the treespeaker offers him an option.

And no, the treespeaker isn´t a great card because you play Arbor Elf/Llanowar Elf instead of leveling her up in turn 2... (how does that even make sense?).



Was I ever talking about "some kind of RoE-Ramp?"



I thought we try to judge the card in a slower RoE Environment (I am sure there and/or in limited it could have an impact, just as Fyndorn Elder). Maybe I got that wrong, sorry.



~And even if they do and it's forced to sit around as a 1/1, it still becomes relevant later on thanks to the lords and Eldrazi Monument, just like any other elf does.



And the opponent will ignore it and needs to deal with the Lords or Monument just like any other elf.


Please, do tell me how you can just "handle" a Wolfbriar Elemental (which is pretty much an auto 4-of in every Eldrazi Green deck) or Bestial Menace (seeing more and more play in the aforementioned deck). Yeah, sweepers, I got that already. Please re-read "bad against control decks - small portion of the metagame - etc." And "artifacts?" What is anyone actually playing that can kill artifacts these days? Maelstrom Pulse. Those are rarely a 4-of in jund decks these days (and many are even cutting them altogether). Oblivion Ring. Mostly a 2-of, and played in many, many less decks than the pulse (please bear in mind this is all referring to pre-sideboarded decks, don't bother talking to me about how "X deck post-board has Quasali Pridemage" or whatever). Also, Oran-rief?



I never said anything against Wolfbriar Elemental (an incredible powerful card for sure). And of course isn´t Eldrazi Monument as easily to handle as creatuers in this format - but that doesn´t really matter in our discussion. I said that Treespeaker isn´t worth playing in my opinion and I still believe that. It/she doesn´t turn into a good card just because green has powerful other cards available. Whats with Oran-rief - does that make every single green creature playable ?


No... you really went about this argument the wrong way. The issue isn't the removal. The issue is Blightning (and BBE into Blightning) because when you play out your mana-producers quickly, your opponent can just mise you with Blightning and you lose your threats from your hand. And there's no real way to play around this without losing the advantage of ANY mana-producers. Read: why Jund is such a resilient deck.




I don´t disagree, Blightning is another serious problem. I just believe, if you´ll run Treespeaker you unnecessary make yourself more vulnerable to removal. And its not like that an on "Elf-interaction" based Eldrazi Deck is unaffected by removal. On their own Llanowar Elf, Arbor druid, Evlvish Visionary & Co. just can´t compete with jund creatures (or even Boros).

Treespeaker doesn´t improve this, and I don´t see why I should run an unreliable creature. I can´t see how the additional mana it *sometimes* produces justifies to play it over Llanowar Elf/Arbor Elf.
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