Shaman Spirit Companion FAQ

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This is identical to what I have up in my shaman handbook, but I think this is useful enough to include here as well since there are regular questions about it and this is a better place for a rules discussion.  I will update it whenever I update the one in the handbook and vice versa.  Here is a link to a dragon article 387about shamans for DDI subscribers which has statements on spirit companion rules that I mention below several times.

SC=Spirit companion, PHB=Players Handbook, PP=primal power DS=Dark Sun OA=opportunity attack RAW=rules as written RAI=Rules as intended

Q; Where are the rules about conjurations?

A: Page 120 of the PHB2 has the SC companion rules.  Page 219 and 220 in PHB2 have updated conjuration rules and they slightly expand on the rules in PHB1 page 59.

Q: What does the spirit keyword mean?

A: From Page 220 of PHB2: "You can use a spirit power only if your spirit companion is present in the encounter. If a spirit power includes “spirit” in its range, you determine line of sight and line of effect from your spirit companion’s space, which is the power’s origin square."

Q: Does my SC occupy a square?  Who can move through it?

A: Yes it does occupy a square, unlike most conjurations.  Your allies can move through it, but can not end their turn in the same square.  You enemies can not move through it.  See PHB2 p 120.

Q: Does my SC provoke OA? 

A: No.  The PHB2 FAQsays it does not provoke OA.  The reasoning is that only creatures provoke OA and your SC is not a creature.

Q: When does my SC get to make an OA?

A: Technically your SC never makes an OA.  He has an attack that functions as an opportunity action.  He gets to make that attack only when an enemy moves away from it without shifting.  Note that "Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions" according to page 285 of the PHB.   The updated rules say teleportation does not provoke.  Ranged powers also do not provoke attacks from SCs.  Remember that it is always you making the attack and that the SC is a proxy or a puppet that you are attacking through, so if you are stunned, dazed etc. you don't get to take the opportunity action.

Q: How fast does my SC move?  Can it Shift?  What happens when I am slowed?  What happens if I am immobilized?  What about difficult terrain?

A: It moves up to your move speed when you take a move action.  It probably can not shift normally (no rule says it can), but for the most part that does not matter since it does not provoke OA (there is a feat that lets Githzerai's SC shift when they shift).  If you are slowed, you movement drops to 2 and therefore your SC can only move 2.   Immobilization does not cause you to loose your move actions and technically does not reduce your speed, so you should be able to move it, but ask your DM.  Page 220 of PHB2 says conjurations are not effected by difficult terrain.

Q: Can my SC be pushed, pulled, slid, slowed, stunned, dazed, blinded, deafened, petrified, or take ongoing damage?

A; No.  It can only be damaged and only you can move it according to the rules on page 120
of PHB2.  If it takes 10 + 1/2 your level in damage then it is dismissed and you take damage equal to 5 +1/2 your level 

Q: Is my spirit an ally?

A: No.  Conjurations are not allies, but some powers and feats may let it do things normally only allies can do like flank or provide cover.

Q: If I have combat advantage against an enemy does the +2 bonus apply to attacks I make through my spirit companion?

A: Yes.  For instance if the shaman is flanking an enemy he gets a +2 bonus to all attacks against that enemy.  That includes attacks from conjurations since the rules provide for no exception to this.  See pages 279 and 285 in the PHB for the relevant rules: "You gain a +2 bonus to your attack roll when you have combat advantage against a target". 

Q: If I am being flanked or if someone has combat advantage against me for another reason does the bonus also apply to the companion?

A: No.  The bonus applies to attack rolls against that particular target.  It does not lower your defenses and the spirit companion is a different target.


Q: I know my SC can’t be effected by conditions but what happens to my SC if my shaman is effected by one of these conditions?


conditions

Blind: This does effect the spirit like blinded normally does, because the SC has no senses of its own. So if the shaman is blind and enemies succeed with stealth checks against his passive perception (-10) and that effects his spirit attacks equally.  The attacks still have -5 for total concealment, because the shaman actually makes the attack.  The rules say nothing about the SC being able to make perception checks on its own.

Dazed: Works as normal. You can take only one action. Though if it is a move action, you both can move.   This is why sudden call/nimble spirit are such good feats.


Immobilized: You can't move, but you can still take move actions, which means you can move your SC.


Marked: Works as normal. Even if you attack through your SC, it would still be -2 to hit a target other than the one that marked you.  And since the PC is one marked if the PC attacks a target other than the one that marked it any mark punishment will be directed against the PC.


Dying/Petrified/Unconscious: Your SC is dismissed since you must be conscious for it to remain summoned


Prone: While prone you get a -2 to all attacks, including spirit attacks.  The shaman grants CA to melee attacks, but the spirit can’t grant CA.  The SC gets a +2 bonus to defenses against all ranged attacks from enemies not adjacent to the shaman since the shaman gets that bonus.  Some DMs may rule otherwise on that last point, since that sounds a bit weird, but I think the SC gets all conditional defensive bonuses that the shaman gets.


Restrained: Same as immobilized, but you get a -2 to attack through your spirit too.


Slowed: Your SC has your movement speed, so you both can only move 2.


Stunned: Nothing happens to the SC, but you can’t move it or attack with it.


Weakened: Your SC attacks do half damage.



Q: How many SCs can I have active at a time?

A: One, unless you have a specific power or ability that lets you summon a second one.  The October 2010 errata confirmed this.

Q: Can I dismiss my SC and then bring it back the same round in some other location?

A: Yes.  Normally that requires 2 minor actions unless you have one of the feats mentioned below that let you summon it as a free action or you are an animist. (The march 2010 Errata makes it so that you can dismiss and then recall the SC as one action.  Then they undid the march 2010 errata in the October 2010 errata so it is back to 2 minor actions)

Q: What does it mean for the spirit companion to be "destroyed"?

A: A couple of powers (call forth the spirit world and spirit of destruction) mention the spirit companion being "destroyed" and when that happens the boost the power gives goes away for the rest of the encounter.  The power call spirit companion only says the spirit companion can be "dismissed" (shaman is unconscious or voluntarilty dimisses it) or that it "disappears" when it takes enough damage.  A few powers like spirit infusion also make the SC disappear.  The feat retributive spirit says a spirit is destroyed by another creature as well, so I infer the authors mean that detroying a SC means dealing enough damage to make it disappear, not voluntarily dismissing it.  So powers like call forth the spirit world still remain effect after using powers like spirit infusion.   Ask your DM. 

Q: So what's the deal with the feats Sudden Call (PP) and Nimble Spirit (PHB2)?

A: They used to be pretty much the same, but they issued errata to make sudden call work only 1/encounter, so you should retrain it to nimble spirit in paragon.  See page 267 of the PHBs for a full explanation of free actions.   And you can only summon your SC during your turn with or without these feats.  The other main difference is that mc shamans can't take nimble spirit, while hybrid and pure shamans can take both nimble spirit or sudden call.

Q: When can I summon my SC?

A: Only during your turn.  Either it takes a minor action which has to be on your turn or it if you have a feats like sudden call or nimble spirit, it is a free action on your turn.  Animists can summon it as a free action during their turn if it was not present at the beginning of the turn.  You can also ready an action to summon it on a trigger, but that will be the only action you can do since readying an action only grants you one action.  MC shamans always need a standard action to summon the spirit unless they take sudden call.

Q: When does my SC disappear with powers like Spirit Infusion (DS)?  Can I bring it back in the middle of the attack with a free action if I have a feat like Nimble Spirit?

This is up to your DM (free actions can always be limited by the DM) and it depends on the power.  For most them it looks like the first thing that happens with the power is the the spirit disappears right away since it is the first line in the effect.  That means that your boosts to allies do not apply if they require your SC to be adjacent to them, so allies would not get any additional boosts when making a Spirit Infusion triggered basic attack.   The rules do not say you can't use a free action in the middle of an attack, but again some DMs may not allow it and in general the answer to this question is ask your DM.

Q; Can my SC fly?

A: Pretty much.  The PHB2 FAQ now says you can summon the SC midair

It can float and does not need to be supported by a solid surface.  The Dragon 387 article on shamans states:  "This means when it moves, it ignores difficult terrain and can move vertically and horizontally."  When the shaman first came out customer service used to say no you can't move it above ground very consistently, but it looks like that the current official position is that you can summon and move it in the air with no problem.

Q; How far away can my SC go and still be sustained?

A: It needs to be within 20 squares of you at the end of your turn for you to sustain it.  There has been a lot of debate about this, but the new rules compendium clarified it with this comment on page 120: "A close power's range rarely matters. If it is ever relevant, the number given for the size also functions as the range"  The following is why this use to be controversial if you care.

closeburst sustains


There is a lot of argument about this, but for my answer I am relying on this FAQ from the Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn, which states that "Q The Dragon Storm power has a zone that starts in a close burst 2, but can be moved.  How far can I move it? A: You can move the zone 3 squares, and it ends if you end your turn more than 2 squares away from it " So as poorly as this answer is written, we now know that close burst powers do have a range requirment for sustaining.

The rules on close burst powers and range are a bit of a mess and need an official FAQ.  People have been arguing about the range of close burst sustainable/movable zones & conjurations since consecrated ground was published in PHB.  PHB2 page 220 states you can move a conjuration as far as you want to during your turn, but conjurations end unless at least 1 square is within range.

If you read page 270 of the PHB there is never a range specified for close powers.  They have area of effect, not range.  In fact the word "Range" never appears in that section, while it occurs in the sections for melee powers, ranged powers, and area powers.  Page 273 however says that the  "Range is the distance from you to a target (or to the attack's origin square)."  The origin square for close burst powers is the creature using the power, so the range = 0.  There is a customer service answer quoted in the thread to this FAQ for instance that as long as you have line of sight there is no range limit.

Now if you go back to PHB page 56 it says "Following a power’s action type on the same line is the power’s attack type and its range." That makes it look like the range is the number on the line following the attack type.  A lot of people think that is the common sense answer since the power is close burst 20 that the range is 20 and treat the square the spirit companion is summoned in as the target referred to on page 273.  To top it off Dragon issue 387 says "If you end your turn with the spirit companion more than 20 squares away from you, it goes away."  Of course that article also contradicts other earlier errata and says you need a minor action to dismiss the SC.
   
So that's why people disagree about this and why we need an official FAQ: page 56 makes it look like close burst 20 is a range, page 270 makes it look like close powers do not have a "range".  Ask your DM, but in my experience this does not come up too often in real game play.   No matter how far away you think the SC can go, you need to have line of effect to it at the end of your turn or it goes away (see PHB2 page 220).



Q: Do I need line of sight or line of effect when using spirit powers?

A: Normally with conjurations you need line of sight to use a power, but with SCs it is different and you use your SC to determine line of sight.  You determine also line of effect from your SC.  See page 220 of PHB2.

Q: Can my SC be damaged by area/close attacks or zones?

A: No.  According to page 120 in PHB2 it can only be damaged by ranged or melee attacks.  And you only have to worry about damage from one attack at a time.

Q: Can my SC flank or provide cover?

A: Not normally because it is not an ally.  The powers stalker's strike and capturing jaws let it flank, which implies that it normally can't flank.  The power (Massive Companion) and feat (Stone Heart Spirit) let it provide cover, which again implies it normally does not.

Q: Can the spirit companion be flanked?

A: No.  This is a bit of complicated reasoning, but to be flanked the target needs to be a creature as defined by the PHB 57.  Your SC is not a creature and therefore can not be flanked.

Q: If I use healing spirit on two allies who are both next to my bear spirit companion, do both get the additional hp from my spirit boon or does only one get it?

A: Yes.  WOTC has not answered the question with a FAQ, but customer servicesays yes pretty consistently.  The players stragtegy guide says yes as well (I believe in chapter 3, but I don't own the book myself).

Q: What if I have the feat Vigorous Spirit (PP) and heal 1 ally and a second ally adjacent to my SC?  Do both get the extra healing from my wisdom modifier?

A: No.  That feat says "the target regains additional hitpoints".  The only target of healing spirit is "you or one ally in burst", the second character adjacent to your SC who gets the extra d6s of healing is not a target.

Q: Can my spirit companion make skill checks?  Can it be stealthy or notice things with perception?

A: Ask your DM, but the rules are pretty silent on this from what I can tell.  My first RAW answer is no since it does not have any ability scores and is not a creature.  It uses your ability scores for determining the outcome of attacks, but it does not mention on page 59 of the PHB or 220 in the PHB2 that it uses your scores for skill checks.  But for things like stealth and passive perception checks you can argue that RAI it is reasonable for it to make some checks using your skills since you can get line of sight from it.

Q: Can a shaman see through a Spirit Companion's Eyes?

A: Even though you determine line of sight for spirit powers through the SC, RAW nothing says you can actually see through the spirit. The power roaming mind, roaming spirit is an exception since it lets you perceive things the spirit can.

Q: Does it have to be a bear or can I make mine a giant otter?

A: Make it whatever animal you want.

Feel free to ask any question that you don't see an answered in the FAQ.  I have removed sblocks, because I do not think they make sense for a stickied thread.
Thanks for this! I am making up a new shaman character and this answered a lot of questions. (I first saw this in your great handbook).
Excellent! I've added a link to this thread in the forum FAQ.
Fantastic work!  I am sure that I could ask a few more questions next time we have combat with our Shaman.
Nice work
Added new question:

Q: What if I have the feat Vigorous Spirit (PP) and heal 1 ally and a second ally adjacent to my SC?  Do both get the extra healing from my wisdom modifier?

A: No.  That feat says "the target regains additional hitpoints".  The only target of healing spirit is "you or one ally in burst", the second character adjacent to your SC who gets the extra d6s of healing is not a target.
Q: When does my SC get to make an OA?

A: Technically your SC never makes an OA.  He has an attack that functions as an opportunity action.  He gets to make that attack only when an enemy moves away from it without shifting.  Note that forced movement does not provoke opportunity actions or opportunity attacks according to page 285 of the PHB.   The updated rules say teleportation also does not provoke.  Ranged powers also do not provoke attacks from SCs.



I was under the impression that the spirit companion doesn't actually have actions; it's the shaman who is making actions through the spirit companion. As such, the "he has an attack that functions as an opportunity action..." would rather be stated, "The shaman can make an Opportunity Action through the spirit companion...."

This may be splitting hairs; however, is my understanding of the spirit companion correct nonetheless? Are all its actions actually the Shaman's actions manifesting through the conjuration?

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Yes, you make the attack through the spirit companion.  It can't do anything by itself, you are always acting through it.  So if you are dazed for instance and can't take opportunity actions, then you can not make any opportunity action attacks through the spirit.
Can the spirit companion be effected by powers that target "enemies"?

For example, can an enemy Avenger set his Oath of Emnity upon my Spirit Companion before he attacks it?

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Nope, they only take damage from ranged of melee attacks. Anything else has to specifically target conjurations.
Q: When can I summon my SC?

A: Only during your turn.  Either it takes a minor action which has to be on your turn or it if you have a feats like sudden call or nimble spirit, those say your turn.

Couldnt you ready an action to summon it based on a trigger? just in case terrain allows you to block a charge with it for eg. It just takes a minor action and us usually a waste of your standard action and immediate actions, but tactics being what they are...
You can use it as a readied action.  Or if an ally has a power that lets you take a minor, move, or standard action on their turn you could summon it then as well.  The point of that comment is that even if it is a free action, you normally can't use it the middle of someone else's turn.  If your rogue moves adjacent to a bloodied enemy, then normally you can't as a free action summon your panther spirit next to the rogue before the rogue uses his standard action to attack.  With other free action powers you can normally use them on anyone's turn without a problem.
Someone said to me, that when my readied action is triggered and i take it, that it's my turn for the actions duration. So if i have "sudden call" could i call the spirit companion during my readied action (that wasn't "call spirit companion itself)?

What happens if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, the actions is triggered, but the target is too far away? Or won't a readied action triggered if the readied power has some invalid conditions? In any case, if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, could i move the spirit (sudden call) in range to the target?

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I am not an expert on readied actions and they do not come up much in my game.  There is an entire stickied thread devoted to it, but my understanding is that it does count as part of your turn and your initiative changes to be right before the creature that triggered the action.  If the trigger does not happen, then the action does not occur and you lose your standard action.  You only get a standard action, but since readied actions count as part of your turn you should be able to use free actions as well.  After rereading the rules I think I have to change my response.  You get to "choose the specific action" which is the singular.  So you get 1 action, which I would think means no extra free actions.  Ask your DM.

Without sudden call there is no problem using your standard action to call your spirit companion to a specfic space when another creature moves into a space adjacent to it.
Someone said to me, that when my readied action is triggered and i take it, that it's my turn for the actions duration. So if i have "sudden call" could i call the spirit companion during my readied action (that wasn't "call spirit companion itself)?

What happens if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, the actions is triggered, but the target is too far away? Or won't a readied action triggered if the readied power has some invalid conditions? In any case, if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, could i move the spirit (sudden call) in range to the target?



Not posable I'm afraid. I did do this for a short while till I had another look at what you get with a readied action.

Readied actions are Immediate Reactions. As an Immediate action can not be used on your turn, it is not your turn, meaning you can't use the Call SC power.

On a side note, I know SC's can't "fly" but as they float this still means they can be summoned infront of the flying dragon and hit it on the nose. Or am I not reading this right?
Thats how my shaman makes attacks against flying creatures, and how i see the float rule, i dont let my shaman players to move it while up there tho as it doesnt have a fly speed!

but since its just a minor to teleport it from one side of the battlemat to the other, they really dont bother moving it on their move action anymore, shamans are pretty much stationary artillery pieces in my campaigns.
Someone said to me, that when my readied action is triggered and i take it, that it's my turn for the actions duration. So if i have "sudden call" could i call the spirit companion during my readied action (that wasn't "call spirit companion itself)?

What happens if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, the actions is triggered, but the target is too far away? Or won't a readied action triggered if the readied power has some invalid conditions? In any case, if i ready a melee spirit 1 power, could i move the spirit (sudden call) in range to the target?



Not posable I'm afraid. I did do this for a short while till I had another look at what you get with a readied action.

Readied actions are Immediate Reactions. As an Immediate action can not be used on your turn, it is not your turn, meaning you can't use the Call SC power.



Take a look at the wizard power "storm pillar". It damages an enemy, that moves adjacent to the pillar on it's turn. My idea was to ready an action, to push/slide a creature adjacent to the pillar on it's turn. But someone else countered this, by saying that it's technically my turn, when a triggered action resolves. So who is right, you or my friend?


Thats how my shaman makes attacks against flying creatures, and how i see the float rule, i dont let my shaman players to move it while up there tho as it doesnt have a fly speed!

but since its just a minor to teleport it from one side of the battlemat to the other, they really dont bother moving it on their move action anymore, shamans are pretty much stationary artillery pieces in my campaigns.



Wether an SC can fly or not is a controverse topic. I'm myself unsure how to handle it,  but your interpretation seems viable. I can't move the SC in the air, but i can call it there... this way a shaman is not totally useless againg flying creatures if he has no ranged powers.

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Take a look at the wizard power "storm pillar". It damages an enemy, that moves adjacent to the pillar on it's turn. My idea was to ready an action, to push/slide a creature adjacent to the pillar on it's turn. But someone else countered this, by saying that it's technically my turn, when a triggered action resolves. So who is right, you or my friend?



In this case your friend is wrong. Readied actions take place as immediate reactions during the turn of whatever creature they are triggered during. The Storm Pillar tactic WILL work. Note however that the power Call Spirit Companion does not have an 'on your turn' restriction. The Sudden Call feat has this restriction, but I don't see any reason why having this feat disallows you from conjuring your SC as a minor action, it just gives you the option to do so as a free action during your turn. You can still ready an action to use Call Spirit Companion. It expends a standard action to ready, but it will work. This is not much of a tactic though in general. You give up your own attack in the hope that a very specific trigger condition will be tripped and allow you to give an ally a small advantage. Chances are this will be useful very rarely and it seems like the cost is high enough to make the tactic balanced at the very worst and sub-optimal most of the time.

Wether an SC can fly or not is a controverse topic. I'm myself unsure how to handle it,  but your interpretation seems viable. I can't move the SC in the air, but i can call it there... this way a shaman is not totally useless againg flying creatures if he has no ranged powers.



Yeah, no FAQ is going to answer that one unless its put out by WotC. There is no doubt that an SC can't 'fly', the real question is whether or not you can get effectively the same thing by having it float above the ground. Here's an interesting point though. The Watcher Spirit option from PP clearly describes the Shaman's SC as 'soaring above the battlefield'. The powers oriented to this build and its paragon path are clearly assuming a flying SC. Yet there is no mechanical aspect to this at all. Obviously whoever wrote Primal Power is convinced that SCs can fly, or else just plain overlooked adding a mechanic that allowed it. Take from that what you will.
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If you manage to get a fly speed on your shaman does the SC pick up a fly speed from you as well?
Blah blah blah
If you manage to get a fly speed on your shaman does the SC pick up a fly speed from you as well?



No, Call Spirit Companion simply says you can move it a number of squares equal to your speed whenever you move. Movement modes are never mentioned in reference to conjurations. If you were slowed the SC would only be able to move 2 squares, etc.
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Q: how physical is a spirit? can it lift things or trigger weight-based traps (pressure plates or pit traps)?

(both answers can give it tactical adantage: if it does trigger, we've got an auto-trap finder. if it doesn't, the spirit can fight above untriggered traps with no problem) )
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There is no general rule on this, but the general consensus is that the spirit has no physical form (though it occupies a square). So it cannot trigger traps on it's own (floating above a pressure plate is the same as above a fissure or simply air).

But you can use attacks, like "stalkers strike" or any other that doesn't target will, to try to active traps that you discover (with perception). Just be aware, that objects don't have a will defense, meaning they are immune to attacks, that target will.

The at-will utility power "Assistence of the strong spirit" could be used to manipulate objects. During combat you'd have to spend a standard action for it, which is quite a waste. What you can do with it outside if combat is up to your DM (i don't have this power, so i haven't asked mine what he thinks of it).

Mechanically, the spirit does not have a will of it's own, so it's just a puppet controlled by the shaman.

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Mechanically, the spirit does not have a will of it's own, so it's just a puppet controlled by the shaman.

Fluff-wise... our shaman's Spirit Companion is opinionated and stubborn. The two of them argue frequently. (On the other hand, the SC is rather amused by how much the appearance of a "ghost" terrifies most of the locals folks.)

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
What happens, in the following scenarios:
The spirit is out of my shamans line of sight (LoS), Line of Effect (LoE) or range (burst 20)?

The compendium says about "Movable Conjurations: If the power you use to create a conjuration allows you to move it, it’s a movable conjuration. At the end of your turn, the movable conjuration ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at least 1 square it’s in. When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it through blocking terrain."

Spirit keyword reads:

"You can use a spirit power only if your spirit companion is present in the encounter. If a spirit power includes “spirit” in its range, you determine line of sight and line of effect from your spirit companion’s space, which is the power’s origin square."

I couldn't find any other RAW rulings, regarding my question. If the above are the only ruling, could i do the following things:

1. Attacking enemies aroung corners: If i conjure the SC in range and take a move action, to let him move my speed around a corner or wall, i can still attack enemies i can't see, because LoS and LoE are both determined from the SC with spirit powers. After the attack i could reconjure him in LoS and LoE so he doesn't disappaer at the end of my turn.

2. Healing around corners: Again i conjure the SC in range, LoS and LoE and move him around a corner or wall, adjacent to a dying ally. Then i use "healing spirit" on myself. If i spend a healing surge, could i use the secondary effect of "healing spirit" on the dying ally?

3. Attacking outside of spirits range (close burst 20): I conjure the spirit 20 squares away and move him 5 square, so he's 25 squares away (i have LoS and LoE to him). Could i then let him attack an enemy that's 26 squares away (or 27 with totemic spear) with a spirit attack?

4. Healing outside of spirits range: Could i heal an ally with "healing spirits" secondary effect, who's adjacent to the spirit in the prior case (i'm the primary target again)?

5. Attacking outside of spirits range, without LoS and LoE: Like 3, but this time i moved the spirit around a corner or wall, after conjuring it.

6. Healing outside of spirits range, without LoS and LoE: Like 4, but this time i moved the spirit around a corner or wall, after conjuring it. I still use healing spirit myself and try to "use" it's secondary effect on an ally adjacent to the spirit, but i don't have LoS and LoE to both.

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Those all should work fine.  From my understanding of the rules you need line of sight for the square you first conjure it into, but afterwards it can go anywhere and can attack and heal outside 20 squares.  It just needs to be within 20 squares at the end of your turn if you don't want it to disappear.

I think the greatest range I can think of assuming your shaman has a base move of 6 and you are using a farseeing totem (+2 squares for ranged powes) and a power like spirit lance (ranged spirit 10).  You could start out with the spirit 20 squares away, move it 6 and then attack a target another 12 squares away, which is a target 38 squares away from you.
or range (burst 20)?



"close burst X" is not a range. The range for close powers is either 0 or infinity, so you most likely can move your spirit companion anywhere where you maintain LoE (at the end of your turn).
or range (burst 20)?



"close burst X" is not a range. The range for close powers is either 0 or infinity, so you most likely can move your spirit companion anywhere where you maintain LoE (at the end of your turn).



@Suoitidure: Are you sure about this? I don't know of any RAW sources, that would clarify this. But if this was true, then a shaman could sit on top of a tree in an open plain and sent his spirit miles away to attack random targets. Even if there was fog, the spirit could still operate,  because the shaman doesn't need LoS to maintain the spirit (though he couldn't perceive possible targets, because technically the spirit has no senses of it's own).

@GelatinousOctahedron: I haven't come across any ranged spirit attacks on LV 5, but there might be some of them on higher levels. If i used such an attack, would it count as the shaman executing the ranged attack (and provoke OAs as normal)? The spirit keyword only refers to LoS and LoE.

As a side note, the spirit couldn't benefit from the shaman running, because the shaman can move it his (base) speed, or could it?

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There are not many ranged spirit attacks.  I think Hunter in the sky is the only other one. They should still provoke since you are the technically the one making the attack.

The power Roaming Mind, Roving Spirit says that the spirit has a normal range.  That powers allows you to send your spirit more than 20 squares from you, but your spirit is unable to make attacks when more than 20 squares from the shaman while you are using the power.  The power would make no sense if the spirit did not have a range of 20.  The rules for range and close powers are not clear, but I think RAI that the spirit can not normally go more than 20 squares from you and still be in effect after the end of your turn.

@Suoitidure: Are you sure about this? I don't know of any RAW sources, that would clarify this. But if this was true, then a shaman could sit on top of a tree in an open plain and sent his spirit miles away to attack random targets. Even if there was fog, the spirit could still operate,  because the shaman doesn't need LoS to maintain the spirit (though he couldn't perceive possible targets, because technically the spirit has no senses of it's own).



A close burst, by its nature, only dictates an area of effect. I lacks a range entry (because it does not normally need a range entry).

This has some akward side effects with some close burst/blast conjurations and zones.  I was hoping for clarification on this subject in PH3, but it did not come.
A close burst, by its nature, only dictates an area of effect. I lacks a range entry (because it does not normally need a range entry).

I'm not sure that's completely clear-cut.

"Attack Type and Range: The power's attack type and range appear on the same line as its action type. The attack types are melee, ranged, area, and close. Each attack type has rules for range and targeting, detailed on pages 270-273 of the Player's Handbook." (PH3, p. 214)

That sounds to me like all powers have a range.  We just need to parse out what it is.

I think you can make arguments for either:
* The PH description of origin squares for close bursts is implicitly defining the range of the spell as being 0.
* If the power's range appears on the same line as its action type, then the only number we can point to as indicating range is the size of the area of effect.
* Since no range is explicitly listed, we'll just assume the range is infinite.

Argument 1 might work for zones but fails badly with conjurations.  Argument 3 leaves us with nothing (and just assumes the most powerful interpretation without any basis; "undefined" might as well be 0 as infinity).

I think the argument that, for purposes of being within range of a movable zone/conjuration created with a close burst, at least one square of the zone/conjuration needs to be within range of you (as defined by the size of the area of effect of the power), is the one that makes the most sense.
According to the rules on conjuration in PH3 (page 216), when you move a conjuration at least one square of the conjuration must be within range of you and you must have line of effect to at least one square (these apparently don't have to be the same square) at the end of your turn or the conjuration ends.

(There is no comment, in that location, on what happens if the conjuration stays put and you move.)

So no, you can't park yourself in a nice safe location and send your Spirit Companion rampaging for miles.

Also, if the conjuration can attack, you must have line of sight to the target. The conjuration must have line of effect. (If it's a blast/burst that targets "all creatures" then I would houserule to say that you must have line of sight to the origin square. A fireball doesn't care who can see what part of it. When a power says "all enemies" you're being selective, and it's reasonable to say you can't select enemies in areas you can't see.)
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
According to the rules on conjuration in PH3 (page 216), when you move a conjuration at least one square of the conjuration must be within range of you and you must have line of effect to at least one square (these apparently don't have to be the same square) at the end of your turn or the conjuration ends.

(There is no comment, in that location, on what happens if the conjuration stays put and you move.)

So no, you can't park yourself in a nice safe location and send your Spirit Companion rampaging for miles.

Also, if the conjuration can attack, you must have line of sight to the target. The conjuration must have line of effect. (If it's a blast/burst that targets "all creatures" then I would houserule to say that you must have line of sight to the origin square. A fireball doesn't care who can see what part of it. When a power says "all enemies" you're being selective, and it's reasonable to say you can't select enemies in areas you can't see.)



Your arguments are irrelevant for this discussion. If the shaman is on top of a tree on an open plain, then LoE shouldn't be a problem most of the time. The question is just, wether "close burst 20" is similar to "area brust X within 20" or not. Also note that both conditions (range and LoE) only need to be fullfilled at the end of the shamans turn.

Most Shaman attack powers have the spirit keyword, which specifies that LoS and LoE for them are determined from the SPIRIT (which is a conjuration with rule exceptions).

I know that this is a confusing topic, because there are so many rules exceptions in regards to the shaman. But taht's also why i ask questions on the board, to clear them.

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Which close burst are we talking about exactly? Call Spirit Companion?

Minor Action      Close burst 20


Effect: You conjure your spirit companion in an unoccupied square in the burst. 


 
• Movable Conjurations: If the power you use to create a conjuration allows you to move it, it’s a movable conjuration. At the end of your turn, the movable conjuration ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at least 1 square it’s in.
 
Seems pretty clear cut to me. If the spirit is >20 squares away from you at the end of your turn, the conjuration ends.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387

Also, if the conjuration can attack, you must have line of sight to the target. The conjuration must have line of effect.



In this case specific beats general.  Page 220 of PHB2 says that with the spirit keyword you determine both line of sight and effect from the spirit.

I think the argument that, for purposes of being within range of a movable zone/conjuration created with a close burst, at least one square of the zone/conjuration needs to be within range of you (as defined by the size of the area of effect of the power), is the one that makes the most sense.



It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?

I think the argument that, for purposes of being within range of a movable zone/conjuration created with a close burst, at least one square of the zone/conjuration needs to be within range of you (as defined by the size of the area of effect of the power), is the one that makes the most sense.

It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?

I think that as long as some people are unwilling to interpret "range" in regard to a close power as "where you could have been when casting it, to cover all the target area in question", this issue cannot be resolved except by asking WotC.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose

I think the argument that, for purposes of being within range of a movable zone/conjuration created with a close burst, at least one square of the zone/conjuration needs to be within range of you (as defined by the size of the area of effect of the power), is the one that makes the most sense.



It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?



Which conjuration is summoned within a blast?

"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387

It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?



Which conjuration is summoned within a blast?



Bolded the part you apparently missed.

It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?



Which conjuration is summoned within a blast?



Bolded the part you apparently missed.



Bolded the part that is relevant to the thread.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387

I think the argument that, for purposes of being within range of a movable zone/conjuration created with a close burst, at least one square of the zone/conjuration needs to be within range of you (as defined by the size of the area of effect of the power), is the one that makes the most sense.


It is also the argument that has the least RAW support.

Also, what of close blast zones? Would a close blast 3 then have a range of 4?



Which conjuration is summoned within a blast?



Bolded the part you apparently missed.



Bolded the part that is relevant to the thread.



Bolded the parts that are relevant to the post you replied to.

Also, it is relevant to the thread, since movable conjurations and movable zones have the exact same rules text.

✦ Movable Conjurations: If the power you use
to create a conjuration allows you to move it, it’s
a movable conjuration. At the end of your turn,
the movable conjuration ends if you are not within
range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s
range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at
least 1 square it’s in.
When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it
through a solid obstacle.

✦ Movable Zones: If the power you use to create
a zone allows you to move it, it’s a movable zone.
At the end of your turn, the movable zone ends if
you are not within range of at least 1 square of it
(using the power’s range) or if you don’t have line of
effect to at least 1 square of it.
When you move a zone, you can’t move it
through a solid obstacle.



Bolded the different text for ease of comparison.

Bolded the different text for ease of comparison.



Ok, so I'll pick a zone. Stinking Cloud

Standard Action      Area burst 2 within 20 squares

The stinking cloud ends if, at the end of your turn, at least one square is not within 20 squares of the caster.

Where is the confusion here?

(edit) Found a blast zone. There are 3 hits for "zone blast move" in the compendium.

Standard Action      Close blast 3

Effect: The blast creates a zone of brambles that lasts until the end of your next turn. While within the zone, you and your allies gain cover. When any enemy enters the zone or starts its turn there, it takes 5 damage. As a move action, you can move the zone 3 squares.
 
I'll concur, not as clear as a Stinking Cloud. Seems straight forward enough to be that if one square of the zone is still within a close blast 3 of the caster it doesn't end. 
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387