Pupil of the All-Father?

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So the latest Channel Divinity article in Dragon #385 introduces some new cleric and avenger prayers for those dedicated to Moradin (and those who just want to poach them).

However, it also introduces a new feat for heroic level characters... Pupil of the All-Father...

This feat allows a Dvine follower (i.e. any Divine class) of Moradin (Moradin only I'm afraid) access to the Enchant Magic Item and Make Whole rituals... and more importantly... allows them to create magical weapons & armour as if they were four levels higher than they are.

This type of feat was discussed in an earlier thread, when the Artificer came out and had a feat that affected item creation.

Was there a concensus about the viability of this type of feat?

I would think that the GP cap on LFR modules would limit any potential abuse. However, it might be worth taking at low level so that a character can create/buy a specific set of (cheap) armour or a weapon from a source that hasn't made it into the module picks yet.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

I recently played through the MINI campaign, where gold was plentiful and the magic item picks were pretty poor (for our party anyway)... something like this would have been very useful... very useful indeed! Wink
If you have a rules item that allows you to craft something of higher level you can.  Whether or not you can afford it is another question altogether.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Yeah, it's not going to be much use because won't have enough gold to make many items above your level.  But I guess with the change to the retraining rules (since Eberron came out), it might be worthwhile to get the feat only for the level when you want to make your item, then get rid of it.
The only case where you might have the cash would be rust monster abuse, and there the issue is really the rust monster abuse.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

The only case where you might have the cash would be rust monster abuse, and there the issue is really the rust monster abuse.



Or you could sell a few expensive magical picks to boost your cash.

Either way, I don't think it's "broken". As I said above, the GP cap will prevent to much abuse.

It's just something interesting to add to a character.

Has anyone any experience with the higher level modules... is there any scope for getting higher level picks to sell for more cash?

Any thoughts?
Or you could sell a few expensive magical picks to boost your cash.

Not really. You can't sell an item until you're within 4 levels of it (CCG 1.95, p9), and at that point selling it won't get you anything otherwise out of range.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Sweet!

Time to retrain my Cleric and play a MYRE.
When I was developing the article in question, I actually told my playtesters "yeah, that's a flavorful feat that probably won't see much use in LFR." If its useful to you though, go for it!

Mainly it was made for homegames where people can develop characters a bit more.
When I was developing the article in question, I actually told my playtesters "yeah, that's a flavorful feat that probably won't see much use in LFR." If its useful to you though, go for it!

Mainly it was made for homegames where people can develop characters a bit more.



Thanks Gadren... it was a great little article, I really enjoyed it... Laughing

Although as a STR Cleric player I curse you for all the WIS based powers!

Will my Human STR Cleric ever get a third at-will that beats Astral Seal (even with my rotten WIS & CHA)???

Oh well... at least our party knows that if I'm reduced to using Astral Seal, we really are in serious trouble! Tongue out

Cheers...
Sweet!

Time to retrain my Cleric and play a MYRE.


Trolling is against the rules, FYI.

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It's a good thing I have this Flaming Weapon +2!!
Sweet!

Time to retrain my Cleric and play a MYRE.


Trolling is against the rules, FYI.


Maybe I missed something, but I don't think Hibiki was trying to troll.
I know him personally, and I'm pretty sure he was being sincere about retraining and playing a MYRE.
Either way, I don't think it's "broken". As I said above, the GP cap will prevent to much abuse.



Yeah, in general, it really isn't possible to exploit it - the exponential nature of the gold curve makes it difficult to accumulate gold to buy an item of your level, let alone four levels higher.

The interesting possibility is finding a +X item and then upgrading it a couple of notches. As an example, a character finds a +3 magic weapon and then makes it into a +3 farbond spellblade. 
Either way, I don't think it's "broken". As I said above, the GP cap will prevent to much abuse.



Yeah, in general, it really isn't possible to exploit it - the exponential nature of the gold curve makes it difficult to accumulate gold to buy an item of your level, let alone four levels higher.

The interesting possibility is finding a +X item and then upgrading it a couple of notches. As an example, a character finds a +3 magic weapon and then makes it into a +3 farbond spellblade. 


That's typically what my master crafter artificer does. For example, when he wanted a +2 wand of fire shroud, he got a +2 wand, sold a level 9 bundle item, paid the remaining difference and had it by level 5. Granted, that's two bundles + some extra gold for one item you want, but I usually don't use up all my bundle slots anyway.
When I was developing the article in question, I actually told my playtesters "yeah, that's a flavorful feat that probably won't see much use in LFR." If its useful to you though, go for it!

Mainly it was made for homegames where people can develop characters a bit more.



Thanks Gadren... it was a great little article, I really enjoyed it...

Although as a STR Cleric player I curse you for all the WIS based powers!

Will my Human STR Cleric ever get a third at-will that beats Astral Seal (even with my rotten WIS & CHA)???

Oh well... at least our party knows that if I'm reduced to using Astral Seal, we really are in serious trouble!

Cheers...



Why does WOTC hate Str clerics? Lousy proficiencies, one good at-will (which has been nerfed), and just a couple of PPs, compared to over a dozen for the WIS cleric (why oh why oh why is warpriest a WIS based path?)

Grrrr.
When I was developing the article in question, I actually told my playtesters "yeah, that's a flavorful feat that probably won't see much use in LFR." If its useful to you though, go for it!

Mainly it was made for homegames where people can develop characters a bit more.



Thanks Gadren... it was a great little article, I really enjoyed it...

Although as a STR Cleric player I curse you for all the WIS based powers!

Will my Human STR Cleric ever get a third at-will that beats Astral Seal (even with my rotten WIS & CHA)???

Oh well... at least our party knows that if I'm reduced to using Astral Seal, we really are in serious trouble!

Cheers...



Why does WOTC hate Str clerics? Lousy proficiencies, one good at-will (which has been nerfed), and just a couple of PPs, compared to over a dozen for the WIS cleric (why oh why oh why is warpriest a WIS based path?)

Grrrr.



Well now you can MC runepriest and pick one of their paths =P  I know that's not a real solution and my strength based cleric has considered retraining to be a laser cleric because of the lack of support.
Blah blah blah
When I was developing the article in question, I actually told my playtesters "yeah, that's a flavorful feat that probably won't see much use in LFR." If its useful to you though, go for it!

Mainly it was made for homegames where people can develop characters a bit more.



Thanks Gadren... it was a great little article, I really enjoyed it...

Although as a STR Cleric player I curse you for all the WIS based powers!

Will my Human STR Cleric ever get a third at-will that beats Astral Seal (even with my rotten WIS & CHA)???

Oh well... at least our party knows that if I'm reduced to using Astral Seal, we really are in serious trouble!

Cheers...



Why does WOTC hate Str clerics? Lousy proficiencies, one good at-will (which has been nerfed), and just a couple of PPs, compared to over a dozen for the WIS cleric (why oh why oh why is warpriest a WIS based path?)

Grrrr.


You know, the feats in the article work just as well for str clerics as for wisdom clerics.
The reason I chose wisdom for the paragon path was because wisdom is the universal divine stat (all divine classes have it as a primary or secondary), so the pp is viable for all divine classes. Also, the other two moradin PPs were strength-based, so why would I make yet another one?
The reason the one cleric power is wisdom-based is because I saw a need at the tables I played at for wisdom clerics to get an MBA power.
The reason the avenger powers are wisdom-based is because they are avenger powers.

Honestly, I don't understand why people keep up with this "you must hate strength clerics!" just because I put in one wisdom cleric power. Or my other favorite, I must hate avengers because I didn't give them an MBA too.
So, is the logic here that providing support for x means you must hate y? Tongue out

Overall, as a Channel Divinity: Moradin article, I was trying to make the options useful to as many divine Moradite characters as possible. Not just clerics.

You know, the feats in the article work just as well for str clerics as for wisdom clerics.
The reason I chose wisdom for the paragon path was because wisdom is the universal divine stat (all divine classes have it as a primary or secondary), so the pp is viable for all divine classes. Also, the other two moradin PPs were strength-based, so why would I make yet another one?
The reason the one cleric power is wisdom-based is because I saw a need at the tables I played at for wisdom clerics to get an MBA power.
The reason the avenger powers are wisdom-based is because they are avenger powers.

Honestly, I don't understand why people keep up with this "you must hate strength clerics!" just because I put in one wisdom cleric power. Or my other favorite, I must hate avengers because I didn't give them an MBA too.
So, is the logic here that providing support for x means you must hate y? Tongue out

Overall, as a Channel Divinity: Moradin article, I was trying to make the options useful to as many divine Moradite characters as possible. Not just clerics.



no no no, your article was fine!  It's an overall lack of options for strength based clerics that is the problem, it's not your job to fill that gap.  All divine classes using wisdom is a bit much in my opinion and should have not been the case, but it is so there we are. 
Blah blah blah
All divine classes using wisdom is a bit much in my opinion and should have not been the case, but it is so there we are. 



The Runepriest doesn't use Wis.  (except as a secondary) Then again, a lot of peopel whine it should be INT for some strange, cooked up, contrived reason.  See what happens when you leave the WIS realm with divine classes?  Be careful what you wish for.  ;)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
All divine classes using wisdom is a bit much in my opinion and should have not been the case, but it is so there we are. 



The Runepriest doesn't use Wis.  (except as a secondary) Then again, a lot of peopel whine it should be INT for some strange, cooked up, contrived reason.  See what happens when you leave the WIS realm with divine classes?  Be careful what you wish for.  ;)


Right, same thing with paladins. That's why I said its "the universal divine stat (all divine classes have it as a primary or secondary)". It's not unheard of to have your secondary tied with your primary though, especially if your race has a +2 to your secondary, so you can make a viable paladin or runepriest Soul Forged (though unfortunately runepriest would have to MC to get channel divinity. I did not forsee a divine class without the CD class feature...)
I don't know about mt fellow STR Clerics, but to say WIS is my secondary stat, is really a red herring.

It's true that it is my second highest stat, but it's only that high (15 at the moment) so that I get a small boost to heals and qualify for the Hero of Faith feat (at level 4). It's probably not going to go much (if any) higher.

The problem is, that in my experience, the WIS of STR Clerics will always be too low to make WIS based PP and feats a viable investment, over say a weapon-based feat (i.e. weapon proficiency, weapon focus, weapon expertise etc.).

This is why I would say that there is little support for STR Clerics, there is no weapon-based feat support that is unique to the Cleric class, so without an MC into something that has weapon-based support, you are stuck with the vanilla armour proficiency/weapon focus/expertise/racial weapon training/superior weapon feats.

Hero of Faith is one of the few (you could say) WIS based feats that is of any use, as it gives you any Avenger skill (hello Athletics) and a double attack roll until the end of your next turn allowing for a surprisingly powerful nova turn.*

A couple of weapon feats with a "battle cleric" flavour would be nice... not all of us want a shield or to worship Tempus for an attack-based channel divinity...

Incidentally, does anyone know the list of STR based Cleric PPs? The only one I can think of is the Battle Chaplain... Undecided



* I use a Vicious Mordencrad +2... charge + Gift of Incomparable Strength (3[W] daily)... action point... Strike of Judgement (2[W] encounter)... followed by a Healing Strike (2[W] encounter) on the next turn if I need a bit of healing.
Except Hero of Faith has been errata'd so it doesn't even do that anymore.
Hero of Faith is one of the few (you could say) WIS based feats that is of any use, as it gives you any Avenger skill (hello Athletics) and a double attack roll until the end of your next turn allowing for a surprisingly powerful nova turn.

Disciple of Divine Wrath gives you the effect you're talking about (OOE until the end of your next turn), but gives you training in a skill you already have and only has a Wis 13 prerequisite.

Hero of Faith effectively no longer exists: it now just gives you the double attack roll until the first time you hit, which will usually be inferior to getting it for two rounds.

Incidentally, does anyone know the list of STR based Cleric PPs? The only one I can think of is the Battle Chaplain...



There's the Hammer of Moradin which you can get if you worship Moradin and are proficient with a warhammer or throwing hammer (it's in DP, but in the Paladin section).  And Stone Keeper which requires you to be a dwarf and know history (also from DP).  That's it.  So if you aren't a dwarf and don't worship the dwarf god or use a shield, you have to multiclass to get a path you can use.  It is pathetic.

That's why my cleric has been level 9 since last summer.  There's no reason to level him past 10 because there's nothing for him in paragon.  I could of course take the cliche that is Pitfighter, but I've been hoping there'd be an actual cleric path he could take.  So far, no.
I am honestly surprised that they haen't just gone ahead and errata'd all the dual primary stat PHB classes to be single primary stat. Like making all the Cleric Strength based weapon powers just Wisdom based.

It seems to be their current design philosophy, anyhow. ONE primary stat that determines pretty much all class attack and damage bonuses, and at least one secondary stat that adds to many situations. All the books after the PHB pretty much have classes with this design.


-karma

LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard | Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard | Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric

AL Character: Talia Ko'bori Silverwane - Tiefling Tome Fiend Warlock

I don't know about mt fellow STR Clerics, but to say WIS is my secondary stat, is really a red herring.



lol

My Str cleric has a 9 starting Wis (so it's a 10 at Paragon).  It was higher back in the day, but the instant Healer's Mercy came out I dropped Turn Undead and Sacred Flame (my only two Implement powers) like a couple of hot potatoes, and then when attribute retraining was added I dropped starting Wis from 14 to 9 (and it'll be down to 8 when I get to Epic, just to prove a point more than anything else).

So I heal a couple less points.  Boo hoo, cry me a river, you still get the surge(s) + maybe some dice.  I can still solo-heal a group of level 11s playing P1 high.  With, I might add, the least healing-specialized cleric of all time probably.  I did suck it up and take a couple of Encounter attack powers that do healing (but only ones with 2[W] damage), along with Healer's Mercy, but I don't have a single healing-related feat, magic item, or Utility power.

Hero of Faith effectively no longer exists: it now just gives you the double attack roll until the first time you hit, which will usually be inferior to getting it for two rounds.



So that has been taken away too... (sigh)... Frown

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