Daze vs extra action

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Yesterday that happen in our weekly session.

A lot of us were daze cause of a Grell. Then our bard asked us "Will you be able to use the extra action my power grants you to perform any non-violent action on your next turn if you are daze ?"

And we all were like "dah!" well we decide just to do something else but we didn't come up with a solution either you can use the extra action or not when you're daze.

Anyone have their own houserule about that or maybe something we didn't read correctly in the books.


Lotsif
Depends on the acton type.  But if it doesn't specify then it's considered a free action, which you can do while dazed (but not stunned).

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

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Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

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Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

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Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well the power was granting an extra standard action to all people in a certain range but we had to use it in a way it would not harm the ennemies. ex.: second wind. 

Will we be able to use that standard action ? 

What was the power used granting the extra standard action?

Dazed allows the use of free actions and one regular action (minor, move, or standard).

If the power used during one of the allowed actions grants an extra standard action, then per the Specific Beats General ruling (PHB 11) you could use that "extra" standard action per the restrictions of the power which granted it (non-violent actions).
If you dig enough I think you will find that there is an ongoing debate as to whether Dazed limits you to 1 of the action types or whether Dazed sets your allotment of actions to 1 (as opposed to your usual allotment of 3).

Personally I am in the camp that believes Dazed does not prevent you from gaining extra actions. 
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
I agree with zgrose.
I'm more inclined to lean toward rules vs exceptions on this one. The rule is when you are Dazed you get one standard action, and you can take free- and no- actions. If the Bard uses a specific power to grant extra actions, that would appear to be an exception to the rule, in the same way a Rogue or Ranger power would let you shift multiple squares, even though the rule is you shift one square.

That being said, not knowing exactly how the Bard power works, I would say present your case to the DM and let him rule it.

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

The power is the following :

Inspired Solutions Life Singer Utility 12
Daily * Arcane
Standard action Close burst 5
Target : You and each ally in burst
Effect: Each target can take an extra standard actions as part of his or her next turn. The target cannot spend this extra action to make an attack that deals damage. 

So basicly if I looked at the page 11 of PHB who says that specific rules beats general rules, then this power is the specific rule and the daze condition is the general rule.

Thanks guys for all your answers it made it a whole lot clearer now.  
That seems pretty analogous to an Action Point to me, and you can AP while dazed, thus gaining another action.
I would definitely say yes, allow it. It even sounds like it was named for that particular scenario. "My party's all dazed, I need a solution to this problem....I know!..." and there you go.

Call it Specific beats General, call it Exception beats Rule, or call it awesome strategy, but I'd allow it.

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

This is one of the reoccuring debates here.  As I am on the side of the people already posted here, I'll let SUO come in and explain his cards to you.
This is one of the reoccuring debates here.  As I am on the side of the people already posted here, I'll let SUO come in and explain his cards to you.

Speak not the name of the Beast lest you summon him!

Laughing 
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)
And so it begins...
Heere we go again !

I am in the opinion that you'd be granted this extra action, but would still be limited to spend either a Standart, a Move or a Minor, regardless of what's available to you while Dazed.
From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)



Obligatory:  "Being able to spend an Action Point is not the same as being able to take an extra action.  After all, Action points do *lots* of extra things for some characters"

This argument is transparently not RAI, but actually has a fair point to being RAW.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)

Yes you can spend it, but can you take the extra action? That is the unasked and unanswered question in the FaQ.

Don't get me wrong. I do think you get and can use the action. The FaQ is just lacking in its answer. It should go the slight extra distance and say that you can use the extra action granted becasue as LoW mentiones, there are many reasons to spend the AP.

From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)



Obligatory:  "Being able to spend an Action Point is not the same as being able to take an extra action.  After all, Action points do *lots* of extra things for some characters"

This argument is transparently not RAI, but actually has a fair point to being RAW.



It's pushing it even to be RAW.

"During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action."

It would require a very clear exception to allow one to spend an action point and yet not gain an action.   Daze most certainly is not such a case.
From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)



Obligatory:  "Being able to spend an Action Point is not the same as being able to take an extra action.  After all, Action points do *lots* of extra things for some characters"

This argument is transparently not RAI, but actually has a fair point to being RAW.



It's pushing it even to be RAW.

"During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action."

It would require a very clear exception to allow one to spend an action point and yet not gain an action.   Daze most certainly is not such a case.



The argument is that the wording of Action Point - "gain an extra action" does not supercede Dazed's limits on the number of actions you can TAKE, regardless of how many you have.

I'm on your side, honestly, but I can see where they're coming from.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
From the PHB FAQ (if desired):
"29. Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
    Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed."


(edit: no additional debate is needed anymore... if this helps you, great. If not, no worries)



Obligatory:  "Being able to spend an Action Point is not the same as being able to take an extra action.  After all, Action points do *lots* of extra things for some characters"

This argument is transparently not RAI, but actually has a fair point to being RAW.



It's pushing it even to be RAW.

"During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action."

It would require a very clear exception to allow one to spend an action point and yet not gain an action.   Daze most certainly is not such a case.



The argument is that the wording of Action Point - "gain an extra action" does not supercede Dazed's limits on the number of actions you can TAKE, regardless of how many you have.

I'm on your side, honestly, but I can see where they're coming from.




and you would think when they did a FAQ on daze and using a action point they would say you can use a action point and you can use the extra action, or not use the extra action instead of leaving us hanging.

Its a in the FAQ because we wanted to know if we could use the Action point to gain another action.  We really didn't want to know if we could use a action point and thats it
They didn't do that because they didn't have to.

What reasonable person would actually believe that a FAQ clarification that taking an Action point was permissible would not include using the action that that Action Point give?

I don't expect further clarification because its rather obvious.

Yes, you can read Dazed to let you use an Action Point and not get the action, but, c'mon now, is that really a reasonable reading?  No, it's not, it is only a possible reading, but not a reasonable way to read it.
They didn't do that because they didn't have to.

What reasonable person would actually believe that a FAQ clarification that taking an Action point was permissible would not include using the action that that Action Point give?

I don't expect further clarification because its rather obvious.

Yes, you can read Dazed to let you use an Action Point and not get the action, but, c'mon now, is that really a reasonable reading?  No, it's not, it is only a possible reading, but not a reasonable way to read it.



I agree, but they seem to answer this question FAQ so..odd.  This is what makes people wonder if you still can or can't
They didn't do that because they didn't have to.

What reasonable person would actually believe that a FAQ clarification that taking an Action point was permissible would not include using the action that that Action Point give?

I don't expect further clarification because its rather obvious.

Yes, you can read Dazed to let you use an Action Point and not get the action, but, c'mon now, is that really a reasonable reading?  No, it's not, it is only a possible reading, but not a reasonable way to read it.



I agree, but they seem to answer this question FAQ so..odd.  This is what makes people wonder if you still can or can't



I never thought the answer was odd.  Very straightforward.  It's only odd if you take the somewhat twisted view that you can spend an action point and not be granted the extra action to which you are entitled.  That's not really possible unless the power or condition specifically stated you could spend an Action Point and yet not get the granted extra action.  After all, the Action Point use is granting an exception.
As I am on the side of the people already posted here, I'll let SUO come in and explain his cards to you.



The Action Point rules allow you to 'gain' an extra action.  This particular power allows you to 'take' an extra action.  Therefore, even with the card analogy you can use an extra action with this power.

Hoard: may earn you gp; Horde: may earn you xp.
An AP let you gain an extra action. No doubt. Even if you could spend an AP while Stunned you would gain it. But you couldn't still use it. Problem is that being Dazed dosen't take you're other actions away. No matter what is available to you, you can either take a Standart, a Move or a Minor and some Free's. Stunned dosen't take your Actions away neither, you just can't take any of them. Spending an AP will let you gain one more of them of your choice. A Warlord could give you an additional Move Action as well. Some PP could let you gain another Move action for later uses during the encounter. You could have 6 Standarts, 3 Moves and a Minor available that you could still only either take a Standart , a Move or a Minor.

The FAQ states you can spend an AP while Dazed. Sure, since you can take Free Actions. What's not written is assuming you can use that action even while limited. It's not, and 4E is fairly clear usually on what you can do or what you can't. The FAQ lacks any further explanations demonstrating you can and i therefore understand since FAQ aren't for errata but to provide clear definition of Rules in place. I don't see it as conclusive. Why it would still say so ? Because there are other benefits from spending an AP than strickly gaining and using the extra Action with Feats, PP's, Warlord's Features etc...

Can you spend an AP while Dazed ? Sure.
Can you take more than either a Standart, a Move or a Minor while Dazed. Nope.

Suo ? Bring Suo down here to demonstrate the card exemple for a better understanding.
When the issue is finally, officially, resolved; I hope the losing side has the fortitude to own up to it.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Here's to hoping the issue IS ever resolved!
When the issue is finally, officially, resolved; I hope the losing side has the fortitude to own up to it.



LOL
Just like any Errata that turns the tide down. A satisfaction of seeing things getting dealt with, accompaign by a little feeling of deception for the loss. Wink

If they do so, it will be to allow the uses of the extra action gained, since 4E is all about heroic action and it's more heroic to spend a resosurce and gain the full benefit of itwhen limietd. It won't be to support the other side i am sure..

But only if they get tired of seeing this endless debate still raging on, and finally decide to do so.

EUH WIZARDS ? DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO HANDLE THIS MATTER ONCE AND FOR ALL ? Tongue out
When the issue is finally, officially, resolved; I hope the losing side has the fortitude to own up to it.



Oh, for the love of...

There is no issue to resolve.

Dazed:  You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take immediate actions or opportunity actions.

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION   ...You gain an extra action this turn....

Spending an Action Point is CLEARLY giving you an EXTRA action.  That's what is says.  When your are dazed you get one action plus free actions.  Spending an action point gives you an EXTRA ACTION.

Done.

A power or condition that refuses you the extra action from spending an action point would have to actually specify, "no extra action was is granted if spending an action point," or some similar language.

Dazed does not do that.

That's it.  There is nothing for WotC to clarify.  Nothing in the Dazed condition states or implies you are denied any extra actions that you might gain one way or another.

When your are dazed you get one action plus free actions.  Spending an action point gives you an EXTRA ACTION.



Dazed doesn't take any actions away from you. It let you only take either  Standart, a Move or a Minor. It doesn't give you one action knocking of the two others. It doesn't say you can take anymore than that by spending an AP. It limit you regardless of what you can do. Spending an AP doesn't make you take that extra action, only gain it. If another source limits the action you can take, unfortunatly, you won't get anymore than the limitations allow you to take.

If a Warlord uses Commander's Strike or Opening the Shove while adjacent to an Uncouncious or Stunned PC that let him attack or Shift, do you think that his Unconcious ally will move or attack because he doesn't take any actions to do so ?
Spending an Action Point is CLEARLY giving you an EXTRA action.  That's what is says.  When your are dazed you get one action plus free actions.  Spending an action point gives you an EXTRA ACTION.



Dazed doesn't take any actions away from you. It let you only take either  Standart, a Move or a Minor. It doesn't give you one action knocking of the two others. It doesn't say you can take anymore than that by spending an AP. It limit you regardless of what you can do. Spending an AP doesn't make you take that extra action, only gain it. If another source limits the action you can take, unfortunatly, you won't get anymore than the limitations imposes you to take.

If a Warlord uses Commander's Strike or Opening the Shove while adjacent to an Uncouncious or Stunned PC that let him attack or Shift, do you think that his Unconcious ally will move or attack because he doesn't take any actions to do so ?





No, because they cannot take any actions.  That precludes them even from taking extra actions, because they are denied all actions.

Dazed does not do that.  Nothing about dazed prevents you from taking extra actions.  There will likely be no clarification from WotC.  Why would they?  I am sure, from their prespective, there is nothing to clairfy.  It is very clear.   When something grants you an extra action, you get to take it unless you can take no actions at all.

I realize that somehow in your head you read Dazed to say: 

You can take only one standard action, move action, or minor action during your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions or any extra actions granted to you.

That would preclude taking any extra actions.  But it does not say that.  It says:

You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor  action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions.

Nothing about that precludes taking extra actions you are granted somehow.
Wow look like that my first post what on an itchy subject ;). Fun to see that there's so many people that have the same issue. But true that I would like to see a wizards link or a quote in a book that lead to a complete answer about that issue. 

Anyway I hope some answer will be given to some readers.
No, because they cannot take any actions.  That precludes them even from taking extra actions, because they are denied all actions.



Who told you they were taking actions ? The mentioned Powers doesn't state or at best it wouldbe No Action, which Unconcious creature are allowed to take.


I realize that somehow in your head you read Dazed to say: 

You can take only one standard action, move action, or minor action during your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions or any extra actions granted to you.

That would preclude taking any extra actions.  But it does not say that.  It says:

You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor  action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions.

Nothing about that precludes taking extra actions you are granted somehow.



It is IMO, despite what Fitz was saying to me the other day. It's a limitation. Regardlesss of how many extra actions you could possibly take you either take a Standart, a Move or a Minor. The limitations is in regards to the options it enumerate, not what you can take. And The original 3 actions aren't restrictions. It's a base of what you get and you can possibly get more using different methods. 

You seem to read to Dazed let you take eighter one action of the ones you can originally take extra after.
I read it as you can take either one of the three mentioned, regardless of what you have available.

Anyway, tell me what's either truly means thereby ? Not an adverb, not a pronoun. It's an adjective ?

WIKI:  Either is an English pronoun, adjective, conjunction and adverb. As a pronoun or adjective it means one, or the other, of two choices. As an adjective, it can also mean both of two possibilities. As a conjunction, it means one of two or more choices. As an adverb, it means "likewise" or "also", and is used for emphasis after a negative statement. Its origin is from Old English ǽghweþer, which literally analyses as a compound word "any - whether." In some constructions it may also mean both of the two choices. (i.e. The hallway was lined on either side with shelving.)

Either/or means "one or the other." It usage versus the simple or structure is often for emphatic purposes, sometimes intending to emphasize that only one option is possible, or to emphasize if there are only two options. Its use in a sentence lets the reader/listener know in advance that a list of two or more possibilities will be given. Its negative is neither/nor, meaning "none of them".

No, because they cannot take any actions.  That precludes them even from taking extra actions, because they are denied all actions.



Who told you they were taking actions ? The mentioned Powers doesn't state or at best it wouldbe No Action, which Unconcious creature are allowed to take.


I realize that somehow in your head you read Dazed to say: 

You can take only one standard action, move action, or minor action during your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions or any extra actions granted to you.

That would preclude taking any extra actions.  But it does not say that.  It says:

You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor  action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions.

Nothing about that precludes taking extra actions you are granted somehow.



It is IMO, despite what Fitz was saying to me the other day. It's a limitation. Regardlesss of how many extra actions you could possibly take you either take a Standart, a Move or a Minor. The limitations is in regards to the options it enumerate, not what you can take. And The original 3 actions aren't restrictions. It's a base of what you get and you can possibly get more using different methods. 

You seem to read to Dazed let you take eighter one action of the ones you can originally take extra after.
I read it as you can take either one of the three mentioned, regardless of what you have available.
Anyway, tell me what's either truly means thereby ?

WIKI:  Either is an English pronoun, adjective, conjunction and adverb. As a pronoun or adjective it means one, or the other, of two choices. As an adjective, it can also mean both of two possibilities. As a conjunction, it means one of two or more choices. As an adverb, it means "likewise" or "also", and is used for emphasis after a negative statement. Its origin is from Old English ǽghweþer, which literally analyses as a compound word "any - whether." In some constructions it may also mean both of the two choices. (i.e. The hallway was lined on either side with shelving.)

Either/or means "one or the other." It usage versus the simple or structure is often for emphatic purposes, sometimes intending to emphasize that only one option is possible, or to emphasize if there are only two options. Its use in a sentence lets the reader/listener know in advance that a list of two or more possibilities will be given. Its negative is neither/nor, meaning "none of them".




But... their is no mention of extra actions.  Therefore you can take them.  Unless something somehow actually denies you taking them, which Dazed most certainly does not no matter how you read it. Extra actions are simply not covered at all by Dazed condition, and therefore you get to take them.

Why?  Because, well, duh, they are EXTRA.  As in above and beyond what you are otherwise restricted to in a round.

You want dictionary defintions?  Okay, I can play:

Meriam-Webster says extar means "...more than is due, usual, or necessary...."  I'll certainly go along with Dazed saying you are "due" only one of the three actions, plus free actions.  But not that this means you are denied the extras you are otherwise entitled to get.  Because, well, they are extra.  "More than is due..."

Other sources :

More than or beyond what is usual, normal, expected, or necessary
Beyond what is due, usual, expected, or necessary; additional; supernumerary...
...excess: more than is needed, desired, or required...
...more, larger, or better than is expected, usual, or necessary; additional or superior...
...more than normal, expected or necessary....

Well, you get the idea.
Dazed limitation of either a Standart, a Move or a Minor is in regards to these 3 enumerations, regardless of how many extras one might get.

Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standart to attack.  (Left actions: a Move, a Minor and Free's)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standart (Left actions: a Move, a Minor, a Standart and Free's)
            
Can he use his extra Standart ? No. Because he took what he was allowed to take in the action limitations imposed by Dazed.
Dazed limitation of either a Standart, a Move or a Minor is in regards to these 3 enumerations, regardless of how many extras one might get.

Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standart to attack.  (Left actions: a Move, a Minor and Free's)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standart (Left actions: a Move, a Minor, a Standart and Free's)
            
Can he use his extra Standart ? No. Because he took what he was allowed to take in the action limitations imposed by Dazed.


I see what you are saying.  You are wrong , but I see it.

Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standard to attack.  (Only Free actions left)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standard (Still have Free left too)

Can he use his extra Standard ? Absolutely. Because he is entitled to an extra action.  As in above and beyond what he otherwise gets for that turn.

You just have your head in the wrong place.  Dazed does not restrict you to ONLY one action, regardless of other powers.  It simply changes your round to let you take only one of Standard. Move or Minor.  If you somehow get an extra action, you can still take that because, well, it is extra.  By definition, an extra action is one you take in addition to what you are otherwise entitled to in that round.

Now, when you can take no actions, you of course cannot take any extra actions because there is a specific prohibition against all actions, and an extra action, while being, well, extra, is still an action.


Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standard to attack.  (Only Free actions left)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standard (Still have Free left too)

Can he use his extra Standard ? Absolutely. Because he is entitled to an extra action.  As in above and beyond what he otherwise gets for that turn.



No, that's wrong. Dazed doesn't take the rest of your actions away. You still have them, just can't take them because you took the one and only that you could. 

Extra is on top of what you have. Not on top of what you can take. The extra actions you gain from an AP ALWAYS go in the actions available to you.  If you exceed your limitations you just can't take any more. If you're Slowed and a power let you Charge, you won't move any farther than 2 even if you're an Half-Orc and get a bonus to Speed in extra. If you're Immobilized, you can't move even if you Run and gain +2 bonus extra squares of movement in extra.

The only instance where i can see an AP could let you use the extra action you gained if if you would have use your Move, your Minor and you're Standart and got interrupted Dazing you. You'd effectively be able to take any of the type you'd choose it to be, since it would be either a Standart, a Move or a Minor anyway.
My opinion (if ya care):

Plaguescarred is 100% correct on the rules interpretation as everything stands right now.  However, I think that the developers intend without ever having said anything for AP's allow in the way that Artoomis wants.  This has been discussed a lot previously, though, and no one will be happy until those dev's finally release an update/errata/faq entry that addresses this once and for all.

-TheNative
So I read your argument since an hour or two now, and well I have to say that the big problem I see is that Action point is for what I think and know of 4th edition is a general rule, and Daze condition is a general rule as well basicly. 

But what about other source of extra action then Action point, like the power I linked.

In PH1 they say that power and item property can modify rule and bring up exeptions to general rules. And the Specific rule win over General do help out to sort things out. So like the power I linked say you can use an extra action for non-damaging action on your next trun bring up an exection to the general rule of Daze condition. As would an item with a similar property would do.

Do you both agree on that statement ? 
Glad our arguments entertained one or two (Cheers Artoomis !) Laughing

I know RAI that's what they want. RAW isn't in accord with RAI all the time. RAW think that no matter how many actions you'll have available to you, via the basics 3 + extra AP + Warlord goodies + PP Features + whatever, really whatever,
it won't change the fact that you will be allowed to take either a Standart, a Move or a Minor. Even if you have available the following : Standart, Standart, Move, Move , Move, Minor Minor and Free's

I understand what people are saying but here's the rules from the PHB regarding action points:

Action Points Once per encounter, you can spend an action point. When you spend an action point, it’s gone, but you can earn more.
EARNING ACTION POINTS
- You start with 1 action point. (Monsters usually have no action points.)
- You gain 1 action point when you reach a milestone (page 259).
- After you take an extended rest (page 263), you lose any unspent action points, but you start fresh with 1 action point.

Most often, you spend an action point to take an extra action during your turn.

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION
- During Your Turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.
- Gain an Extra Action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action.
- Once per Encounter: After you spend an action point, you must take a short rest (page 263) before you can spend another. (Some monsters can spend more than 1 action point per encounter.)

If you spend an action point to take an extra action and are within sight of an allied warlord, the warlord’s Commanding Presence grants you a benefit. Instead of taking an extra action when you spend an action point, you can use a paragon path feature or a feat that requires an action point. Whatever you use an action point for, you can spend only 1 per encounter.

Note that even though it says you gain an extra action, it also states that you can take the extra action. Or instead of taking it, you can use a paragon path feature of feat. So, you gain, and take, the extra action. The whole argument against being able to use the extra action is only based on the "Gain an Extra Action" text, but not the whole thing.
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