PHB4 Races-What would you like to see?

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  I always liked the Vanara from Oriental Adventures or Hadozee from Stormwrack (They are quite similar.)

  Without being specific, here are some themes I might be interested in seeing covered in a new race:

  another small race
  a large race?
  another fey race
  an avian or flying race
  another undead race
  another planar race
  another elemental race
  another shadow race
  a saurian race
  an aquatic race

  I realize that any of the races already released in the Monster Manuals may be eligible, but perhaps they will be saved for a Savage Species book?  Also races already released online such as the Revenant and Shadar-Kai might be contenders as well?

  It appears we will see Thri-kreen and Mul in Dark Sun  

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((Disclaimer: This is my opinion)) 

- I want the Goblinoids to get their due -

     Goblin
     Hobgoblin
     Bugbear

- I want Lizard Folk (I wanted them far more than Dragon-blech.)

- I know people love Kobolds, I'd like to see them.

- Thri-Kreen (Dark Sun - I love you!)

- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.

*shrugs*

So - by and large, a "Savage Species" PHB.

These races need to become civilization builders and leave behind this "Savage" cliche.

Well Revenant is off limits since it is a DDI exclusive. I doubt we'll see Shadar-Kai since they were reprinted in Dragon Annual.

I honestly can't say that there are any races that I personally want. If they include Shadow in PHB4, a race idea that I just thought of which could be interesting would be a race whose members are created when fragments of souls taken by the Shadowfell converge in a single location to create an amalgram of the base beings. I just came up with that 5 min ago, so I don't know how you would go about making it mechanically distinct from both the Revenant and Deva. I think it is an interesting idea that could be explored though.

I don't really know what they could do for Elemental though. Genasi do a pretty good job of covering the "elemental" race niche. Perhaps bring back spiritfolk? I don't really recall them too well though, so I don't know if they would actually work or not.
 I  know it's about as likely as a flying race, but I'd love to see a large race. Be it giant/half-giant or something less humanoid I'd still love it. Also I'd like to see playable centaurs. And lastly I want a race or two that are nothing like we have now. Non-humanoid races that....... I don't even know what just not humanoid. 
Along the lines of the OP, I would like to see...

A Small Race.
A Race that Fits the New Power Souce.
A Race that Pushes the Envelope with the "Humanoid PCs" Concept.
A Completely NEW Race.
(None of these are mutually exclusive.)

I would love to see at least 6 races present - optimally, a return to the PH1's 8 races.
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Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue.

-One of the monster manual races reborn into a PHB format.  The Goblinoids could do the shifter thing and have a single entry with three stat blocks, the lizardmen could get an in-depth look, the yuan-ti could get a special little niche, etc.  Only one savage race, however, otherwise the entire section is too focused on one concept.

-A completely new race.  Something innovative and interesting.  Something that will be part of DnD on into the future, carving itself a new place in the worlds.

-A race from outside of DnD reimagined.  Magic: The Gathering has several, for example, that would make fantastic editions to the game, be it Aven, Cephalid, Nantuko, Nezumi, Orochi, etc.  Bring in something not yet touched upon but full of fluffy and crunchy potential.

-Something aquatic.  It doesn't have to be exclusively sea-bound, but exploring water themes would help round out the races, which currently place a lot of emphasis on mountain, forest, etc, but not on several other aspects of nature.
I'd like to see half-dragons presented in some way besides 'Reflavor the Dragonborn', maybe like loodline feats like the Dhampyr and Deva Heritage.

Kobolds for certain, love those little guys :D (MWonder how their shift as a minor action at-will racial power would interact with the seeker's shift as a minor action at-will class feature).

Some sort of golem race, baked clay instilled with false life or a soul ripped from the Shadowfell.

Something more distinctly bestial than the shifters (Rakshasa or were-races).

One cool concept that's a little on the sci-fi side is extra-planetary beings, a race from another planet!

Maybe rules for creating half-breeds of the various races already out there, kind of like how PHB3 did with hybrid classes?
My only major bid for the next player's handbook is that I hope to see the illumians revisited at some point. I probably wouldn't be as vested in this save for their mention in the Manual of the Planes--now, it seems like a shame to just let them go now that we've already brought them up, and I'd like to see their return sometime.

Other than that, I have no other major demands. There's a lot of races I'd like to see, but then, there's a lot of races I'd like to see. 
I think they should fully publish the some of the various monster races with which they have tempted us and for which so many clamour... err, for which some of us clamour:

Githyanki
Kobold
Goblin
Icanabulum
Bladeling
Member of Grognards for 4th Edition
I don't want to see another small race until WotC fixes the problems with the small trait.


- Thri-Kreen (Dark Sun - I love you!)



They're coming in Dark Sun in less than five months.  There's no need for them to be in a PHB.




- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.


Why?  The Wilden are awesome as is.

- I want the new Wilden thrown out - and replaced with a new Wilden.

Why?  The Wilden are awesome as is.





... How 'bout this then (though I know you weren't responding to me - it just got me thinking):

I'd like to see a race that is actually plant-like in some fashion.
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... How 'bout this then (though I know you weren't responding to me - it just got me thinking):

I'd like to see a race that is actually plant-like in some fashion.


Except that they, you know, do look like plants ...
Dragonborn or Tiefling that can fly!


Like their (dragonborn) racial PPs?

Except that they, you know, do look like plants ...



Yeah, when I finally got the PH3 and started looking through it, my first thought was 'WTF is everybody complaining about with the Wilden?'
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'm actually going to agree with Celtic on this one. Wilden are definitely plant-like. I think it's a mistake that they don't have the Plant keyword, and I wish that they had racial features that gave them mechanics evocative of plant-like traits or behavior, but they definitely look like plants to me, and I think that their flavor places them as plants enough for my personal liking.

Would I mind another plant race? I would not. I like the idea of a playable plant race more than I like the idea of a playable living construct race, and if D&D has enough room for more than one of those, and it does, then I think that it should also have enough room for more than one playable plant race. For example, while Wilden are more magical plant creatures, I think that I would prefer to play a more non-magical plant creature. It wouldn't be too difficult to reflavor Wilden, no, but still...

Anyways, as for races I'd like to see... I'm actually pretty much fine with what we have now. I will say in response to other posts, though, that I'd prefer they not do small races until they realize that they need to fix the small size mechanics and that a large race would be mechanically broken so I hope that never happens.

I wouldn't mind seeing Illumians again, though, and even though most people are terrible at homebrewing their flying races, Raptorans have enough of a history in my homebrew campaign setting that I wouldn't mind seeing them again if they can get the mechanics right.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
MYCONIDS!

Ok ... they're fungi, not plants ... but still ...

MYCONIDS!

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out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly? besides its basically nothing but a drawback. you can't gain the benefits of versatile weapons without a feat. most of the smallness factor was made into racial feats and race features for the halfling. gnomes by contrast dont really have any smallness features built in but theyre the only other small race. I think to myself whats the point in being small? I'd like to see dromites some day but if theres a problem with small fries then maybe they can wait.

I'd like to see some of the monster races but i'd rather they be featured in a book all their own. like savage species. If you dont like the word savage then whine and cry till they rename the book monstrous species. I think that some monsters are in terrible need of some fixing. when a DM uses a monster in an encounter the various tricks these monsters employ make great challenges for players but in the hands of players become severely overpowered. the gnoll's variety of bonuses to damage and the kobold's ability to shift every turn as a minor action for example. conversely some monsters are just too damn weak as playable races, for example the kenku who only have a small bonus to flank and assists going for them. mimicry is cool but still not enough plus if your DM employs a hack and slash gaming style then you wont be using it much.

CelticMutt, i think Medhia_Nox was rejoicing the coming of thri-kreen in darksun not asking for them to be in a players handbook. so you objected to a non sequitur
out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly? besides its basically nothing but a drawback.



That's precisely the problem.

And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly? besides its basically nothing but a drawback.



That's precisely the problem.

And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).


I dont think thats necessarily true, drow and genasi never made it into a PHB warforged and kalashtar havent either. It seems there will always be at least two races featured in each setting book that arent going to be in PHBs. the myriad of monster races mostly havent made the leap to full player eligibility yet either.

Edit: just noticed you also said "or players guide" which i guess counts setting books. darksun isnt the exception there will still be two books but its looking like the players stuff and DM stuff will be a lil mingled in the first book and the second will be a darksun specific monster manual.
Given PHB3 was 50/50 old and new races, I imagine PHB4 will be even more new races.
The writers are creative people who like seeing their ideas in print. Why update something when you can make something brand new and leave your mark on the game?

Most of the MM1 and MM2 races probably have the same problem as githyanky: they're better as villains. 

Kenku are pretty popular now, I can see them making the cut. And give we know at least one person in the WotC office is playing one, they probably want feats for their character. 
They might reprint gnolls from DDI.  
They could do some aquatic races like sea-elves or tritons, but 4e seems to be steering away from underwater adventures.  

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And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).


I dont think thats necessarily true, drow and genasi never made it into a PHB warforged and kalashtar havent either. It seems there will always be at least two races featured in each setting book that arent going to be in PHBs. the myriad of monster races mostly havent made the leap to full player eligibility yet either.


That's why he said or Player's Guides.  The FRPG and EPG are Player's Guides. 

And any and all playable races should be in Player's Handbooks or Player's Guides, as it has been since 4e launched (though apparently Dark Sun is going to be something of an exception, I heard).


DarK sun's only an exception in that the Player's Guide and Campaign Guide will be the same book.  I'm willing to bet that's how all future settings will be too if it's sells more than the Eberron or FR Campaign Guides.
Given PHB3 was 50/50 old and new races, I imagine PHB4 will be even more new races.


Technically it's 75/25, since the Wilden are just revamped Killoren from 3.5e.
The drow, and gensai were in the Forgotten Realms Player Guide. The Warforged, Kalastar, and Changeling were in the Eberron Player's Guide.
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Mutt you didnt see my edit. never having set eyes on either of those books comes back to bite me in the ass yet again... also fix your quoats.

I agree with The_Jester the MM races wont get much attention because they are villainous and IMO players using monsters complicates things a little. but as long as girls want to date jerks players will want to be badass anti-heroes. Thats why there should be a book that focuses more attention on these races if not only to shut up the people who go on and on about it ad nauseum. call it: Monstrous Species Player's Guide...
See, there shouldn't be a complication because you want to play a bugbear, a hobgoblin, or a goblin, or any "suitably evil" race. No race is inherently evil, especially if care naught for any of the actual "fluff" in the books. If for example, I decided that Eladrin are an evil race in my campaign, and Hobgoblins stood for truth, justice, and the american way... What's there to stop the players from playing Hobbies? A lack of real support from the developers. Let's say, in that campaign, someone just had to play a redeemed subfaction of the Eladrin... I won't stop them, and it's all supported too. I don't see why it's a bad thing to have what are traditionally off the cuff races actually supported, so as to actually facilitate playing your own game world, and try to break the molds of the cliche and overwrought fantasy tropes. Then again, half the fun of being a DM is making up rules; but seriously, that's a lot of work.
If a Small race is included, I want Dark Ones, since they're a significant population within civilisation in the Shadowfell and thus tie deeply to the theme of the Shadow Power Source (assuming that's what PH4 features).


Besides Dark Ones (whom the PC version should be renamed into a one-word name – the renaming is precedented: Doppelgänger -> Changeling is a good example), I want much as others have been saying.

I want a race that revamps an old edition race or monster race.  Raptorans are at the top of my book, though if they're fused with Aarakockra I'd be happy too (making them more avian than elf-with-wings).  That would require better control over using flight in early game.  Possibly removing the ability to fly until Racial Paragon Path, much as Dragonborn do.  But it's a territory I'd like to explore.

I want another brand-new race, but I think I'm fine with Shardminds and Warforged as the only living construct races.  I think there are other ways to push in new, less human directions. 

I want another race that racially ties to Psionics. Right now, Githzerai and Shardmind in particular do, but I want another race that does as well. 

I think we have a -lot- of primal-themed races.  I want some races that are less primal in origin. 

That said, I wouldn't be -against- another more primal race joining the crew in PH4.  There are plenty of powerful themed races that are primal in origin to draw on.  I just think there are other directions that can followed. 

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out of curiosity, whats wrong with the small mechanic exactly?

Well, look at what the small size mechanics actually do. They limit and restrict weapons. This means that implement-users see no drawback to small size while weapon-users (with the possible exception of Rogue) see their weapon options nerfed. Basically, it penalizes you for playing certain classes while not penalizing you for playing others. This is pigeon-holing, and it's bad. Take a look at the opposite of Small size for another example of why this is bad: Oversized. Don't play a weapon-based class? Well then, sorry, but you're cheated one racial feature.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Not to mention that Gnomes are doubly screwed for being Small by getting a speed of 5.  Check the books - they are the only small race with PC or NPC stats that have a speed of 5.  What kind of crap is that?
After looking over the posts, there definitely seems to be some interest in existing Monster Manual races appearing in a future PHB, including kobolds, goblinoids and saurians. 

Also perhaps a race representative of a power source like shadow.

Or a different plant race. 

Or the unlikely potential for either a large or flying race.

Or a totally new, original race.
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Top Pick: Goblin and Hobgoblin, not so keen on making bugbear overly player friendly however

Other things: Illumians were an interesting idea that could be fun to explore.


And while not a direct attempt to grid fill it would be nice to see some spread out of stat love. Int/Con is popular for classes but not supported race has it, Dex/Con while not a popular combo for classes that i can think of it is only supported by 1 race that is DDI exlusive with a single article. . Int/Cha and Dex/WIs both have plenty of coverage so I'd like to see less of these combos, same with str/con, int/wis, and dec/cha. SO on and so forth. Basically if that stat pair/triplets already have more then two races I feel they could be innovationg more.
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Given PHB3 was 50/50 old and new races, I imagine PHB4 will be even more new races.


Technically it's 75/25, since the Wilden are just revamped Killoren from 3.5e.



They changed the name, appearance, and backstory of the race and only kept its most basic mechanic and nature. 
It's a new race. 

Killoren weren't exactly an a-list race either. For the number of people who knew of them WotC probably could have made a brand new race. 

But it might be an idea to skim through the other 3.5 races books. Illuminam or whatever they were called might have been popular to see a come-back. And raptorians might also be interesting as a race with an at-will or encounter flying power (but they might just name them aarakocra).

See, there shouldn't be a complication because you want to play a bugbear, a hobgoblin, or a goblin, or any "suitably evil" race. No race is inherently evil, especially if care naught for any of the actual "fluff" in the books. If for example, I decided that Eladrin are an evil race in my campaign, and Hobgoblins stood for truth, justice, and the american way... What's there to stop the players from playing Hobbies? A lack of real support from the developers. Let's say, in that campaign, someone just had to play a redeemed subfaction of the Eladrin... I won't stop them, and it's all supported too. I don't see why it's a bad thing to have what are traditionally off the cuff races actually supported, so as to actually facilitate playing your own game world, and try to break the molds of the cliche and overwrought fantasy tropes. Then again, half the fun of being a DM is making up rules; but seriously, that's a lot of work.



It's one of the default assumptions of how you play the game that PCs will be heroes. Which means no channel divinity powers for evil gods and no truly evil races as PCs. 

Can you plan a traditionally evil race with DM permission? Yes, there are stats in the first MM. But having an actual race entry in a PHB will dramatically increase the number of players using said races. Players will have more contact with "redeemed" members of that race than evil members. It diminishes the vileness and evil if the race if so many are good. 
And it adds grey morality to the game. If there are hundreds of good goblins then you have to stop and wonder if that pack of gobbies you and your party slaughtered were unredeemably evil or just desperate. 

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Yes, the player's characters will set the theme of a game just as much as any setting the GM creates, because they'll be the main stars of the story. And developers, like DMs, try to have specific themes in minds with their games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about making the less savory races playable, but I understand why they're unlikely candidates for a PHB. At best I hope for supplements down the road that focus on the player material for such game themes, like Savage Species, Heroes of Battle, or Heroes of Horror did in 3.5.

They changed the name, appearance, and backstory of the race and only kept its most basic mechanic and nature. 
It's a new race.


Their backstory really isn't that different.  Immune system against civilization destroying the natural world, versus immune system against the Far Realms destroying the natural world. 

And their appearance wasn't changed that greatly.  They're still plants, they still change colors according to their age/season, and they still change appearance according to aspect, with almost the exact same changes.  The only real difference in their appearance is the digitigrade legs and Wolverine "hair."
Killoren weren't exactly an a-list race either. For the number of people who knew of them WotC probably could have made a brand new race.


Well, I wasn't arguing that they were well known. 
I always liked the Vanara from Oriental Adventures or Hadozee from Stormwrack (They are quite similar.)


Can't believe I missed this until now - my powers of perception are slipping.  Anyways, the Hadozee aren't from Sotrmwrack.  They're actually from Spelljammer.  Stormwrack was just the only thing to ever mention them in 3e.
Vanara would actually make me -really- happy. 

Especially if they were a Wis/Cha – Dex/Cha race.

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I'd guess the next step in new races might be to focus on races with unusual traits, such as an aquatic race or a flying race. One of the genasi types already gets water breathing as a racial feature, and flight could be limited to gliding until paragon tiers where the winged race can take racial feats to give them overland flight (If one of the big draws of a race is that it has wings, then taking feats to fly rather than having to take a special paragon path might be fair). That way, the balance issues with extra environmental options would be taken care of.

Adapting more villainous races (such as goblinoids or orcs) to be playable might be another option, though it might be saved for its own supplement or an Insider article.
Oh man, am I going to be flamed for this...

Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next. 

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Oh man, am I going to be flamed for this...

Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next. 

Haha, you're funny...
That was supposed to be a joke, right?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Could be. On the other hand, I've already seen a few online games and D&D-derived comics including Warcraft troll derivatives, heh.
A list with which  I would be utterly pleased:

Kobold - I see so many requests!
Bariaur - Enough to satiate the Centaur craving and yet not an established "monster".
Kenku - Cool, different, dark... what's not to like?
Gloaming - Fey in an un-fluffy bunny fey way.
Raptoran - People want a flying race.
Illumian - Interesting and not yet fully explored.
Aasimar - Because I miss them dearly and Deva don't match.
 

Danny

Aasimar - Because I miss them dearly and Deva don't match.
 



Deva bloodline(from Dragon) pretty much covers the design space for the Aasimars.
Oh man, am I going to be flamed for this...

Given they have (half) orcs, tauren minotaurs, forsaken revenants, and draenai deva in 4e, I wonder if they'll add a half-troll or troll-oid race next. 

Haha, you're funny...
That was supposed to be a joke, right?




Wouldn't not overly shock me.

Also: Ettercaps.  We need the goofy creature that wont die to become a playable race!