3/17/2010 BoaB: "Know Your Enemy"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
well i dont know where he went for his prices this week, but I did go and check them at one of the big online bot chains 3 minutes after the article was posted and he actually overpriced by about a dollar...so this should keep the his prices are wrong arguments down to nil.  He isnt responsible for raised prices after an article is posted
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
I mean, it's not his fault, but if the prices go up, he may well be responsible for the increase in popularity. An extreme example of this was the wake left by Ben Bleiweiss's 8-post deck a few years ago
Somehow I doubt this article is going to cause a huge jump in bloodbraid elf prices.
youre right BBE should stay the same i was think more along the lines of Creeping Tar Pit or Sedraxis Specter going up in price
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Specter had its rush when he posted his last article. My, you are a critical one. I'm just glad Pit has found a home.
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its just another jund deck,so bite me...
In an online world where some rares can be found for 0.1 tickets and some uncommons for 3 tickets, it's not enough to just show the ticket costs of the rares.  I'd also add in the cost of any 1+ ticket uncommons, like BBE and Path.
its just another jund deck,so bite me...



Seconded! I look at the final list and all I see is a Jund deck splashing blue and playing a substandard mana base...
So....what exactly makes this a non-Jund deck?

Or is this more of a "Win the mirror match" Jund?
its just another jund deck,so bite me...



Seconded! I look at the final list and all I see is a Jund deck splashing blue and playing a substandard mana base...

I think splashing blue could be considered a pretty big deal if it's as good as he claims. This may be "just" a blue jund deck or "just" a junk deck with mirror tech, but jund is a great deck to start with, so being just a teched out jund deck is no small feat.

Plus I think this deck is legitimately different from regular Jund. Though some of this is due to what I assume is budget reasons (the lack of m10 duals, fetches, pulses) the fact that there are no terminates, tar pits over ravine, and specters does make this play different in both the jund mirror and against the field.
Agreed.

A paraphrase of the article is as follows, "Jund is completely dominant; therefore, I must defeat it!!!  I developed an AWESOME new budget deck that can beat it.  Granted, it's 95% Jund.  The only additions I made were adding a few cards that are good in the mirror.  But its a totally new deck, I swear!"

Interestingly, I built a four color Ziggurat deck a long time ago that was designed to beat Jund.  Except it ran all creatures, except for 3X Eldrazi Monument, which is a card Jund doesn't want to see.  It also ran more Unearth, including Shambling Remains, which is really good against Jund's discard.  Jund is easy to beat if that's your intent in building a deck, whether or not it is good against other decks is still up in the air. 
FYI, I was agreeing with Layton, not Moblin88.
I agree. This deck is just one of Junds variation... Just add a little blue, some BU manlands and one unearth creature to a basic Jund deck and you get this one...

No wonder it's strong!

I think he should have added a few more match-ups... in his earier articles, he reported more than just 2 and with a wide range of decks...
Well, can't fault the man for his honesty.  "To beat Jund, played a teched-out version of Jund."  Not an answer that will please a lot of people, but nevertheless...
Someone needs to explain to me how Playing a jund deck qualifys as beating the boggie man (jund). Its just a jund deck with spector and no pulse.
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Im shocked as too why fetches were not included they are fairly cheap online, and since once you have four you are set.  I mean youre seriously only looking at roughly 12 for a playset of misty rainforest or 16 for a playset of verdant catacombs, and i think 16 as well for scalding tarns...
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
As has already been noted this is just jund with a very slight splash of blue, title of the column should be 'Become Your Enemy' instead of 'Know Your Enemy'. Plus there is no way this can be considered a budget deck for FNM as you suggest (your mtgo prices are worthless here), if you wanted to buy this in card form it would cost:

Creeping tar pit: £4.99 x4 = £19.96
Bloodbraid elf: £4.95 x4 = £19.80
Broodmate dragon: £4.99 x4= £19.96
Sedraxis Specter: £1.99 x4= £7.96
Seige Gang Commander: £2.99 x3 = £8.97
Sprouting Thrinax: £1.49 x4 = £5.96
Blightning: £1.95 x4 = £7.80
Lightning Bolt: £1.95 x4 = £7.80

Total: £98.21 or $149.53 - dropping 100 quid on 31 cards can hardly be considered budgeting.


I normally enjoy these columns but this one is poor, you've already done this idea previously and all you have done is updated it slightly and made it significantly more expensive. I'm dubious as to whether you even read these comments as adding more matchups and some stats on how you did over 100 or so games vs. the main standard archetypes would add a great deal to this column and the decks credibility, these ideas have all been put forward numerous times in the past.
I just had to post after this weeks article. I used to be a big fan of the building on budget articles because they would bring something different to the table but as of late, no so much. They would  often use undervalued, under appreciated cards in creative and semi competative decks that were different. They would not always be winners, but they could set seeds for ideas that you could tweek to your style. I enjoy that, because really, most articles talk about the SAME decks over an over and over. Between tournament results and the such it gets very stale and monotonous.

I pull up the article today and what do we get....JUND....Really?....JUND!? If I wanted to read about Jund again, I could have gone to any site any day and pulled up probably 20 articles. I don't need to been seeing a "builiding on a budget" version as well.  Yawn.

I must say that this week's article was very disappointing, I didn't even bother reading the matches and result.
As has already been noted this is just jund with a very slight splash of blue, title of the column should be 'Become Your Enemy' instead of 'Know Your Enemy'. Plus there is no way this can be considered a budget deck for FNM as you suggest (your mtgo prices are worthless here), if you wanted to buy this in card form it would cost:

Creeping tar pit: £4.99 x4 = £19.96
Bloodbraid elf: £4.95 x4 = £19.80
Broodmate dragon: £4.99 x4= £19.96
Sedraxis Specter: £1.99 x4= £7.96
Seige Gang Commander: £2.99 x3 = £8.97
Sprouting Thrinax: £1.49 x4 = £5.96
Blightning: £1.95 x4 = £7.80
Lightning Bolt: £1.95 x4 = £7.80

Total: £98.21 or $149.53 - dropping 100 quid on 31 cards can hardly be considered budgeting.

What? Where do you buy your cards from?
Seems to me if I wanted to play blue Jund in paper I could get:
BBE for $4 = £2.60 each
Broodmate for less than $6 = less than £4 each (from several stores)
Siege-Gang Commander for $2.50 = £1.50 each (from several stores)
...Etc. Looks like you're just not shopping around.

I wasn't particularly interested in this article, because I tune in for the interesting deck ideas rather than the match-up percentages. Jund doesn't really interest me; rogue decks do, but you can't really call blue-Jund a rogue deck (though "teched-out Jund" is vaguely passingly interesting to glance at).

I did notice JvL claiming "Creeping Tar Pit has no problem with Siege-Gang Commander", though. Really? Hmm.
Also, he just ups the number of Broodmates to 4.  Broodmate is a very good card in the mirror.  So he doubles it up.  How many games were won with playing 2 Broodmate Dragons the opponent couldn't beat?

This article is just a fine example of how the format looks like.  To beat Jund, you have to play Jund.  All the other decks have their moment in the sun, and then disappear.  Have you seen the number of Jund decks in the top 20 of the Kuala Lumpur GP?  It was just disheartening to see.   Jund is what the Germans were to football/soccer in the famous quote of I-don't-know-who-anymore.

Football is a game played with 2 teams of 11 persons.  You play 2 times 45 minutes, and at the end, the Germans won.
well...

white can beat up Jund, with it's 4 firewalkers/white knights.

they also have a nasty match-up vs. Sphinx of Jwar isle...
Hm.... You might as well save a little more money and make a real Jund deck which has simply better chances against everything except maybe the mirror (and that's not even wholy true, since this deck's manabase can be pretty inconsistent).

After all Jund was never been a very expensive deck to make...

I would agree that this article is basically a budget, mirror-centered Jund deck, but he clearly explains why- it's because he spent a lot of time getting to know the Jund deck and found out that the best way to beat Jund is to twist its own strategy against it.

Furthermore, I think that this article answers a very important, currently relevant concern for budget deckbuilders- how to build Jund without needing to shell out a lot of money for the mana base and Maelstrom Pulse.

Well, can't fault the man for his honesty.  "To beat Jund, played a teched-out version of Jund."  Not an answer that will please a lot of people, but nevertheless...



This right here.

If Jund really is the best deck, and it has been proven it is, then why keep fighting it.  Its not a flash-in-the-pan.  It is good because it uses some excellent card-advantage machines, hard to kill creatures, and enough mana to play them all.

So, this is a deck that uses the same strategy, but splashes enough "tech" to sufficiently out maneuver the original.

Yes, this is simply a tweak on Jund.  But it is a very calculated tweak, and it was explained in enough detail as to WHY these tweaks are good enough.

I found it to be a very good article.

Guys, one tech deck and you're complaining?  This is the guy who popularized time sieve combo, created EDNAE, routinely brings new decks into the standard meta...  Last week he did a sweet combo/casual deck.  This week's intends to beat tier 1 decks.  Cut him some slack.

Also, the funny thing about prices on mtgo is that they always shoot up about 12 hours after he posts his article.  He posts a budget deck, which brings all the prices up, and stops being so cheap.  It's funny, really.

Excellent article, and interesting match results.  I'm always glad to see variants of Jund that don't require Maelstrom Pulse.

I feel like there has to be more ways to abuse the addition of blue to the deck, but can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Oh wait, how about sideboard Swerve for the mirror!
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Lol.. he build a Jund deck to beat up on Jund. This is more like: If you can't beat em, join em!

The problem with the budget factor is that he didn't list that Bloodbraids are 3/4 tix a piece.
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As has already been noted this is just jund with a very slight splash of blue, title of the column should be 'Become Your Enemy' instead of 'Know Your Enemy'. Plus there is no way this can be considered a budget deck for FNM as you suggest (your mtgo prices are worthless here), if you wanted to buy this in card form it would cost:

Creeping tar pit: £4.99 x4 = £19.96
Bloodbraid elf: £4.95 x4 = £19.80
Broodmate dragon: £4.99 x4= £19.96
Sedraxis Specter: £1.99 x4= £7.96
Seige Gang Commander: £2.99 x3 = £8.97
Sprouting Thrinax: £1.49 x4 = £5.96
Blightning: £1.95 x4 = £7.80
Lightning Bolt: £1.95 x4 = £7.80

Total: £98.21 or $149.53 - dropping 100 quid on 31 cards can hardly be considered budgeting.


I normally enjoy these columns but this one is poor, you've already done this idea previously and all you have done is updated it slightly and made it significantly more expensive. I'm dubious as to whether you even read these comments as adding more matchups and some stats on how you did over 100 or so games vs. the main standard archetypes would add a great deal to this column and the decks credibility, these ideas have all been put forward numerous times in the past.



You are seriously paying that much for lightning bolts, thrinax and blightnings? there is no way anyone would pay that much for seige gang either.

everything you list is way cheaper on this crazy invention called ebay. apparently it allows people to post cards they want to sell for quite cheap.
Im shocked as too why fetches were not included they are fairly cheap online, and since once you have four you are set.  I mean youre seriously only looking at roughly 12 for a playset of misty rainforest or 16 for a playset of verdant catacombs, and i think 16 as well for scalding tarns...



this guy is awesome
down peoples throat one week for not being BoaB enough
and this week...

So, JVL, really?
I mean, is that really the best you can do? "Oh, the metagame is full of Jund. So, let me show you the deck to beat jund and.... here it is! Oh what? You say it s just a Jund deck splashing blue? Well... you re right!"
Let me make this clear. If I don t want to play Jund, I have a reason. The reason usually remains when you make a deck that is 90 percent Jund and 10 percent stuff to help with the mirrors. You could have saved a lot of space and/or time by writing down "You wanna beat Jund? Play Jund with more broodmate dragons and splash for scepter. End of collum"
the article was extremely explicit. he resisted jund, jund kept winning, so he played jund to learn how to beat it and realized it was good, so he now seeks to beat jund with jund. he built a jund deck designed specifically to beat jund, and by being a jund deck already it's positioned to beat everyone else. this wasn't a secret or anything.


Guys, one tech deck and you're complaining?  This is the guy who popularized time sieve combo, created EDNAE, routinely brings new decks into the standard meta...  Last week he did a sweet combo/casual deck.  This week's intends to beat tier 1 decks.  Cut him some slack.




you should save your breath. the crowd who hates on this column every week is highly resistant to reality and continues week after week to say things like "jvl never does unique decks! jvl always does standard every day! jvl always does the same spike decks and never has any variety!" actually digging up real facts and posting links to real columns doesn't stop their trolling.

this guy is awesome
down peoples throat one week for not being BoaB enough
and this week...




yeah i was thinking the same thing. several weeks in a row he's like extremely angry about budget and this week he's like "needs more fetches!"
I don't understand why most of you guys are crying so much.


JVL wanted to build a deck to beat Jund.   He tweaked out and calculated a list that had a good machup against Jund (even if it is Jund with a Blue splash) and shared it with us.  It is also reasonably budget.  What more do you want from the man, Ice Cream?

Back when Ben wrote BoaB, I thought the job would be cool.  But after seeing you guys act like children every time JVL posts an article, I've changed my mind.   
Love Building on a Budget.  This is the article I look forward to most on Daily MTG each week.  I usually end up trying out each deck you make and I am always impressed.  I ran your Specter Deck at Zen Game Day and made top 4 with it (love Sedraxis Specter).  Keep up the great work.  Looking forward to the decks you will make when Rise of Eldrazi comes out
I'm not particularly disappointed in JvL for this week's column.  I'm just disappointed that Jund is so dominant.
If I was playing standard right now, this is exactly the kind of deck I'd want to know about.  A cheap way to beat the prominent deck.  Having said that, I enjoy the more offbeat strategies that JvL provides, but I appreciate the diversity he tries to cover with his column.  Good work, please keep it up.
This is Jund, and I hate Jund for many reasons. I disaprove of trying to justify playing Jund in order to hose Jund. Becoming the boogeyman does not get rid of the boogeyman good sir.

As for it being budget, that isn't too hard when you're playing Jund without Malestrom Pulse and fetch lands, so congrats on being budget.

Personally, while I do like the "take good standard decks and make them easier for everyone else to play" approach sometimes, it would be nice every once in a while to see something original, much like the Protean Breach deck he had last week  more often (which, because I felt the article was good, I didn't bash it).

What more do you want from the man, Ice Cream?

Back when Ben wrote BoaB, I thought the job would be cool.  But after seeing you guys act like children every time JVL posts an article, I've changed my mind.   


The reason you thought the job was cool and changed your mind with JVL is because they write the article differently, and people who read the column before don't like the new apporach. And yes, I want Ice Cream. Vanilla preferably.



(at)MrEnglish22

I think Jacob should name his deck "Blujund" - pronounced like "bludgeon." And, the definition sticks since it's a deck (weapon) that will beatdown the Jund player.

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After reading some fairly harsh comments here, let me clarify an earlier comment that I made.  I don't dislike this week's column because it isn't budget enough; rather, I think it is a cheap, solid deck.  It also doesn't bother me that much that he built an unoriginal deck, at least this is not what bothers me the most.  What bothers me the most is that he built a similar 4 color Specter deck (which made minor tweeks to Jund) then used an entire column to make another 4 color deck that was a minor tweek to the previous one.  A tweek of a tweek isn't original.  I think it would have been more appropriate to link back to his previous Specter deck and say he has made some updates, then introduce an original deck in the second half of his column.

Also, as far as beating Jund is concerned.  I don't think this list was the optimal list for beating Jund.  I have been testing a four color monstrosity of my own, much similar to the one he posted, but better I think (at least at beating Jund).

I am one of the seeming minority who would rather see a competitive budget(ish) deck that has a favorable matchup against the boogeyman more than I would like to see a jank Johnny deck.  I can build Jank myself.  So, for the most part, I think his column is a move in the right direction.  And, at the same time, you can't dispute that this week's column was far from original.  His first Specter deck was slightly original, this one is just redundant. 
My favorite thing about this article is how the "budget anti_jund" deck he built is basically jund with sedraxis spectre instead of maelstrom pulse.
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