Monk Unarmed Strike

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Okay, so...my dumb question. Is Monk Unarmed Strike a weapon you could take the Weapon Proficiency feat to pick up?
No, it´s not a weapon but a class feature. I could see a monk multiclass feat in the future though that gives you a monk´s unarmed attack. Maybe in Psionic Power?
From PHB3:

UNARMED COMBATANT
You can make unarmed attacks with much greater effectiveness than most combatants. When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group. This weapon has the off-hand weapon property and a +3 proficiency bonus, and it deals 1d8 damage. You must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike, even if you’re kicking, kneeing, elbowing, or head-butting a target. Also, your monk unarmed strike can benefit from a magic ki focus if you have one (see “Implements” below).

From PHB:

Weapon Proficiency

Heroic Tier
Benefit: You gain proficiency in a single weapon of your choice.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon.

The monk class feature is poorly worded. The reason it's treated as a weapon in the unarmed weapon group is so that it can qualify for feats such as Weapon Focus.


However, it's not a true weapon. True weapons have their stats explained in a table, similar to those on PHB page 218 or AV page 9. True weapons also state whether they're simple, martial, or superior quality, and whether they're melee/ranged or 1-handed/2-handed.

I mean...that's all well and good, but where does it state that if a weapon is found outside a table it's not a weapon that can be selected by the feat?
I mean...that's all well and good, but where does it state that if a weapon is found outside a table it's not a weapon that can be selected by the feat?

Well by the Rules As Written, you can select it. However, that does mean that you actually have the a "monk unarmed strike" to wield.
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I mean...that's all well and good, but where does it state that if a weapon is found outside a table it's not a weapon that can be selected by the feat?


It's stated in the same place that you're not allowed to punch the DM if you get surprised by a monster, and also the same place where it's written that you have to roll the dice without cheating.


In other words: nowhere. It's implicit and can be inferred from the structure of the rules. (If you think that's a poor method of deriving rules, as a law student I can guarantee you that judges of the highest courts around the world use the same method to get actual convictions through, so it can't be all that bad.)


 


EDIT:


Just occurred to me that the one way to be sure is to wait until the update of the Character Builder when PHB3 gets added in. Then we can see if the monk's unarmed strike can be selected as a weapon proficiency. I'd be very surprised if it was though. Why go through all the trouble of making that class feature when they could've just added in a new weapon in the equipment section and stated that monks started out as proficient?

Taking a proficiency feat does not give you the weapon for that proficiency.  If you take weapon proficiency (longsword), you still have to buy a longsword.  Where are you going to buy a monk unarmed strike?  You get the weapon just by being a monk.  If you are not a monk, then it's just an unarmed strike.

So, sure waste the feat on weapon proficiency (monk unarmed strike).
Taking a proficiency feat does not give you the weapon for that proficiency.  If you take weapon proficiency (longsword), you still have to buy a longsword.  Where are you going to buy a monk unarmed strike?  You get the weapon just by being a monk.  If you are not a monk, then it's just an unarmed strike.

So, sure waste the feat on weapon proficiency (monk unarmed strike).



 


That's true and much better than my inferred answer. It's the class feature that gives you the ability to make unarmed strikes like that, not the proficiency. So whether or not you can become proficient with such a weapon with a feat is actually irrelevant.



Actually, one of the monk builds is already in the CB.  There is no Monk Unarmed Strike in the weapon proficiency feats or in the weapons section under shop.  (although IIRC it shows up under the shop tab in weapons if you are a monk)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
 Where are you going to buy a monk unarmed strike? 



So you're saying my Minotaur Barbarian can spend a feat for the proficiency, but he'll have to carry around a Halfling Monk in order to make use of it?


I can live with that. 
gnome monk would work too. additional benefit of once an encounter they couldn't see it coming.
Actually, one of the monk builds is already in the CB.  There is no Monk Unarmed Strike in the weapon proficiency feats or in the weapons section under shop.  (although IIRC it shows up under the shop tab in weapons if you are a monk)



But under the feat Focused Expertise, Monk Unarmed Strike isn't an option. Even for monks. I mean...character builder is kinda junky. But yeah. I wanna use a small creature as a weapon. Let's do that.

But under the feat Focused Expertise, Monk Unarmed Strike isn't an option. Even for monks. I mean...character builder is kinda junky. But yeah. I wanna use a small creature as a weapon. Let's do that.


 Focused Expertise requires you to select a weapon you can use as an implement. It's for people like Swordmages and Paladins with a Holy Avenger.


 The monk doesn't wield his unarmed strike as an implement. It's a special melee attack. His powers DON'T use that, they use the ki focus instead.

The monk doesn't wield his unarmed strike as an implement. It's a special melee attack. His powers DON'T use that, they use the ki focus instead.


A monk can use any weapon with which he is proficient as an implement.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

The monk doesn't wield his unarmed strike as an implement. It's a special melee attack. His powers DON'T use that, they use the ki focus instead.


A monk can use any weapon with which he is proficient as an implement.



Well if you reeeally want to use a non-magical hand as an implement in your games, go ahead, nothing's stopping you.  But if you have a Ki Focus, that's your implement, not your hands.  Spending a feat slot on Focused Expertise: Monk Unarmed Strike (or Unarmed Strike) would be a monumental waste of a feat pick.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf


Well if you reeeally want to use a non-magical hand as an implement in your games, go ahead, nothing's stopping you.  But if you have a Ki Focus, that's your implement, not your hands.  Spending a feat slot on Focused Expertise: Monk Unarmed Strike (or Unarmed Strike) would be a monumental waste of a feat pick.



Perhaps they want to use a magical hand as an implement... the Monk Unarmed Strike can be enchanted like any other item.


Well if you reeeally want to use a non-magical hand as an implement in your games, go ahead, nothing's stopping you.  But if you have a Ki Focus, that's your implement, not your hands.  Spending a feat slot on Focused Expertise: Monk Unarmed Strike (or Unarmed Strike) would be a monumental waste of a feat pick.



Perhaps they want to use a magical hand as an implement... the Monk Unarmed Strike can be enchanted like any other item.



No it can not. As it says on p.63 of the PHB 3 it states it can not be enchanted
Perhaps they want to use a magical hand as an implement... the Monk Unarmed Strike can be enchanted like any other item.



No, they changed that.  "Your monk unarmed strike can't be turned into a magic weapon, but it can benefit from a magic ki focus if you have one" - PHB3 p.63.
As the character builder is now informing me... and also saying that it doesn't work as an implement anymore also.  Oddly though, it still says that my monk with magic unarmed strikes is legal.

Additionally, I can't figure out how to dual-wield unarmed strikes anymore in the CB, though I see nothing that should prevent me from that.
Personally (whether or not we're still on the same page) I'd allow a PC to take the Monk's Unarmed Strike as a feat, representing severe training to get your fists hard enough to deal 1d8. After all, no amount of money can give you an iron palm.

This is as opposed to buying the Spiked Gauntlet which lets you deal 1d6 damage, without the cost of a feat for proficiency.

So, I'd just as soon let my players take the feat. If it can't be enchanted or made magical, it'll only come into use if I strip them of their weapons.
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As the character builder is now informing me... and also saying that it doesn't work as an implement anymore also.  Oddly though, it still says that my monk with magic unarmed strikes is legal.

Additionally, I can't figure out how to dual-wield unarmed strikes anymore in the CB, though I see nothing that should prevent me from that.



Monks have Flurry of Blows which effectively replaces dual-wielding.  Right?
Perhaps I should look closer, but I haven't seen anything in flurry of blows that prevents dual-wielding unarmed strikes.  I know it may not be an 'optimal build,' but I kinda liked getting the two-weapon feat bonuses for a monk using nothing but unarmed strikes.
Taking a proficiency feat does not give you the weapon for that proficiency.  If you take weapon proficiency (longsword), you still have to buy a longsword.  Where are you going to buy a monk unarmed strike?  You get the weapon just by being a monk.  If you are not a monk, then it's just an unarmed strike.

So, sure waste the feat on weapon proficiency (monk unarmed strike).


Step 1: Steal a monk.
Sep 2: (**SCENE REMOVED DUE TO GORE**)
Step 3: Use your new monk unarmed strike.

It should be noted that halfling monk unarmed strikes weigh less then human monk unarmed strikes, but deal the same damage.

"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.
Perhaps I should look closer, but I haven't seen anything in flurry of blows that prevents dual-wielding unarmed strikes.  I know it may not be an 'optimal build,' but I kinda liked getting the two-weapon feat bonuses for a monk using nothing but unarmed strikes.



Even if you could somehow do this, it would only apply to a melee basic attack, since that is the on;ly melee weapon power a monk possess - the rest are implement powers.

Personally (whether or not we're still on the same page) I'd allow a PC to take the Monk's Unarmed Strike as a feat, representing severe training to get your fists hard enough to deal 1d8. After all, no amount of money can give you an iron palm.

This is as opposed to buying the Spiked Gauntlet which lets you deal 1d6 damage, without the cost of a feat for proficiency.

So, I'd just as soon let my players take the feat. If it can't be enchanted or made magical, it'll only come into use if I strip them of their weapons.



I seriously wouldn't allow that, considering it's way more powerful than the brawler style fighter only feat that increases unarmed damage to 1d6 (spiked gauntlet to 1d8), and thats a class feature that focuses and unarmed attacks and grabs!
I haven't read the monk hybrid rules, so here's a question.

How would a character with a monk unarmed strike interact with a Brawler style fighter?  Would be be able to use the unarmed strike + the brawler attack bonus + a ki focus?

For that matter, I need to reread MP2... can a brawler who can use a ki focus (McMonk or McAssassin) use it with his unarmed attack and still get his attack bonus (designed to replace enhancement bonuses otherwise unavailable.)
If you go Hybrid, you can take Hybrid Talent to pick up a Monk's Unarmed Combatant class feature. If you combine that with Fighter powers from MP2, you could build a monk who can grapple and who can go buckwild kung fu. The main problem is your armor class, which is a problem than can be slightly rectified at 2nd level, with the feat Unarmored Agility. If you play a Str/Dex race (Half-orc), then you can have two 18's in your attack stats. Then you simply use the features/powers of the class that benefit one with the other (Stone Fist Flurry of Blows, powers that add Dex to damage, etc.). Additionally, you get a bonus to your unarmed strikes from your magical ki focuses while using them for both classes. Actually, you'd get your enhancement bonus to all your weapon attacks from a magic ki focus. At least that's the way I read it. Could be wrong...whatever.

But in the case of taking Weapon Proficiency (Monk Unarmed Strike), it's a weapon listed in the monks Weapon Proficiencies, as well as being a class feature. The class feature states you can benefit from a ki focus' bonuses for your melee basic, whereas the weapon proficiency feat has no such benefits. The only benefit of the feat would be for a Brawler Style Fighter, who could then just go without weapons and be as good as a Fighter with a longsword. Or, you could go Tempest Fighter and be getting that +2 damage with your fist bashes. But in the end, this novel approach will eventually be bested by a guy who took no feats wielding shortswords.

Because you can't enchant your halfling monk.
I seriously wouldn't allow that, considering it's way more powerful than the brawler style fighter only feat that increases unarmed damage to 1d6 (spiked gauntlet to 1d8), and thats a class feature that focuses and unarmed attacks and grabs!


 The difference is a fighter can enchant a spiked gauntlet. His fists will always just be +3 / 1d8. His spiked gauntlets would be better with the feat and a +1 enhancement bonus as they'd do more damage.
The only time this feat would prove worthwhile is in the first couple of levels, where magic items are scarce.
I haven't read the monk hybrid rules, so here's a question.

How would a character with a monk unarmed strike interact with a Brawler style fighter?  Would be be able to use the unarmed strike + the brawler attack bonus + a ki focus?



Both Monk Unarmed Strike and Brawler style are Hybrid talents, so the only way you could combine them is by Paragon Hybrid Multiclassing so you can get the second use of the Hybrid Talent feat.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
As the character builder is now informing me... and also saying that it doesn't work as an implement anymore also.  Oddly though, it still says that my monk with magic unarmed strikes is legal.



Monk implements are weapons they are proficient with.  The monk unarmed strike is a weapon they are proficient with.
As the character builder is now informing me... and also saying that it doesn't work as an implement anymore also.  Oddly though, it still says that my monk with magic unarmed strikes is legal.



Monk implements are weapons they are proficient with.  The monk unarmed strike is a weapon they are proficient with.



It would seem so, but the character builder has this to say about my previously built monk with a vicious monk unarmed strike +1:

"*UPDATE* The rules for monk unarmed strikes has [sic] changed since the playtest.  Your unarmed strike no longer can be enchanted, nor does it function as an implement."
I seriously wouldn't allow that, considering it's way more powerful than the brawler style fighter only feat that increases unarmed damage to 1d6 (spiked gauntlet to 1d8), and thats a class feature that focuses and unarmed attacks and grabs!


 The difference is a fighter can enchant a spiked gauntlet. His fists will always just be +3 / 1d8. His spiked gauntlets would be better with the feat and a +1 enhancement bonus as they'd do more damage.
The only time this feat would prove worthwhile is in the first couple of levels, where magic items are scarce.



Ki foci tip the balance majorly back towards unarmed attacks.

I haven't read the monk hybrid rules, so here's a question.

How would a character with a monk unarmed strike interact with a Brawler style fighter?  Would be be able to use the unarmed strike + the brawler attack bonus + a ki focus?



Both Monk Unarmed Strike and Brawler style are Hybrid talents, so the only way you could combine them is by Paragon Hybrid Multiclassing so you can get the second use of the Hybrid Talent feat.



To follow the current multiclass format, they'll need to come up with at least one other multiclass feat avilable to characters who take the first.  Monk Unarmed Strike seems like the only good choice for this: I expect to see it when Psionic Power is released.

So with this assumption, a human fighter at level one could have a +3 weapon that deals 1d8 damage, spending his resources on ki foci.  Around level 2 he could improve it to 1d10, no better than any fighter with a longsword/bastardsword in heroic.  In paragon, this is a +4 proficiency weapon, and at epic this is a +6 weapon... WITH normal enhancement coming from the ki focus!

To follow the current multiclass format, they'll need to come up with at least one other multiclass feat avilable to characters who take the first.  Monk Unarmed Strike seems like the only good choice for this: I expect to see it when Psionic Power is released.

So with this assumption, a human fighter at level one could have a +3 weapon that deals 1d8 damage, spending his resources on ki foci.  Around level 2 he could improve it to 1d10, no better than any fighter with a longsword/bastardsword in heroic.  In paragon, this is a +4 proficiency weapon, and at epic this is a +6 weapon... WITH normal enhancement coming from the ki focus!



Except that he'd have no use for a ki focus because a ki focus only adds to Monk attacks. As per the wording of  the class, the multiclass feat in the book, and the like. Monk Unarmed strike is not augmented by a ki focus unless you have the Unarmed Combatant class feature from the Monk class. And they're not going to give you the Unarmed Combatant class feature unless you go hybrid. And even then, you're really just taking a feat to have a longsword for a fist.
That's interestign that they did that with the Monk multiclass, especially since the Assassin multiclass has no such restriction on it's implement usage.  It only says you can wield assassin implements, but Ki Focus can normally be used with any weapon attack according to it's own rules.  So only the Monk MC has that rule to supercede that.
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Except that he'd have no use for a ki focus because a ki focus only adds to Monk attacks. As per the wording of  the class, the multiclass feat in the book, and the like. Monk Unarmed strike is not augmented by a ki focus unless you have the Unarmed Combatant class feature from the Monk class. And they're not going to give you the Unarmed Combatant class feature unless you go hybrid. And even then, you're really just taking a feat to have a longsword for a fist.



What?  There's no such rules.

You simply have to be proficient in Ki Focus as an implement to gain its benefits with all your weapon attacks.  The Monk's Unarmed Combatant is not a requirement for using Ki focuses. 

You just don't have a Monk Unarmed Strike unless you have the Unarmed Combatant class feature.


Edit: Nevermind.  Just noticed that they just copy/pasted the rules for every other class's multiclass clause without regards to how Ki Focus works.

Except that he'd have no use for a ki focus because a ki focus only adds to Monk attacks. As per the wording of  the class, the multiclass feat in the book, and the like. Monk Unarmed strike is not augmented by a ki focus unless you have the Unarmed Combatant class feature from the Monk class. And they're not going to give you the Unarmed Combatant class feature unless you go hybrid. And even then, you're really just taking a feat to have a longsword for a fist.



What?  There's no such rules.

You simply have to be proficient in Ki Focus as an implement to gain its benefits with all your weapon attacks.  The Monk's Unarmed Combatant is not a requirement for using Ki focuses. 

You just don't have a Monk Unarmed Strike unless you have the Unarmed Combatant class feature.


Edit: Nevermind.  Just noticed that they just copy/pasted the rules for every other class's multiclass clause without regards to how Ki Focus works.



That doesn't change the ability of the ki focus to sub its properties for a weapon's:

"Being able to use a ki focus as an implement means you can also use it with your weapon attacks."

If you have the monk MC feat, you can use a ki focus as an implement.  You thus fulfill the conditions required to use it with your weapon attacks.  All that the "for monk attacks" limits is it's use as an implement, ie, a sorcerer would not be able to use a ki focus as an implement for his sorcerer attacks.
That doesn't change the ability of the ki focus to sub its properties for a weapon's:

"Being able to use a ki focus as an implement means you can also use it with your weapon attacks."

If you have the monk MC feat, you can use a ki focus as an implement.  You thus fulfill the conditions required to use it with your weapon attacks.  All that the "for monk attacks" limits is it's use as an implement, ie, a sorcerer would not be able to use a ki focus as an implement for his sorcerer attacks.


I don't follow.  The monk m/c feat says, "You can wield monk implements when using monk powers."

How does that allow you to use a ki focus with a non-monk weapon power? 

If it said, "You can wield monk implements (full stop)," then sure.  But it specifically limits when and how you can use them in the m/c feat.  (Or at least to my eye that's what it says.)

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

That doesn't change the ability of the ki focus to sub its properties for a weapon's:

"Being able to use a ki focus as an implement means you can also use it with your weapon attacks."

If you have the monk MC feat, you can use a ki focus as an implement.  You thus fulfill the conditions required to use it with your weapon attacks.  All that the "for monk attacks" limits is it's use as an implement, ie, a sorcerer would not be able to use a ki focus as an implement for his sorcerer attacks.


I don't follow.  The monk m/c feat says, "You can wield monk implements when using monk powers."

How does that allow you to use a ki focus with a non-monk weapon power? 

If it said, "You can wield monk implements (full stop)," then sure.  But it specifically limits when and how you can use them in the m/c feat.  (Or at least to my eye that's what it says.)



All classes can use their implements when using powers from their own classes.  That's how implements work.  A Wizard can use a staff as an implement, but not when using a cleric power.
All classes can use their implements when using powers from their own classes.  That's how implements work.  A Wizard can use a staff as an implement, but not when using a cleric power.


I'm not saying the ki focus won't work with monk powers.  I'm saying the ki focus won't work with non-monk weapon powers (which I believe was someone's point earlier). 

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

All classes can use their implements when using powers from their own classes.  That's how implements work.  A Wizard can use a staff as an implement, but not when using a cleric power.


I'm not saying the ki focus won't work with monk powers.  I'm saying the ki focus won't work with non-monk weapon powers (which I believe was someone's point earlier). 



My point: being able to use "Monk implements with monk powers" is EXACTLY how monks are able to use them: a monk can't use ki focuses for sorcerer, paladin, or shaman attacks either.  If a McMonk can't use ki focuses with weapon attacks then neither can monks.
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