Transfer Enchantment in LFR

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I ran into a unique situation last night, and I wanted to run it by the boards before I went through with it.  A guy at my LFR table offered to use Transfer Enchantment to turn my +2 Elven Cloak into a +2 Badge of the Berserker.  When I asked him how this was possible, he offered the following from the CCG:

[pg. 9] "You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item . . . as long as you have access to the quality."

[pg. 9] "You can purchase any magic item that is equal to or less than your level with gold, as long as you have access to it. See "Player Resources" on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals / formulas are accessible by your character."

So here's the logic.  I'm a level 7 Ranger.  I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item).  By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2.  That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.

RAW, this should work.  RAI, it's admittedly shady.  Thoughts?
Well, for one thing, there's no such item as a "Cloak of the Berserker".  I don't think you can use Transfer Enchantment to create a non-standard item.

For another thing, as I understand it, what Transfer Enchantment does is move an *existing* enchantment from one item onto another item (as long as the new item is a legal "recipient" for it).  You'd need to *start* with a Badge of the Berserker, and then transfer it onto another item (which would be silly, anyway, since the only legal thing you could place it on is another "badge").
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
So here's the logic.  I'm a level 7 Ranger.  I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item).  By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2.  That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.

RAW, this should work.  RAI, it's admittedly shady.  Thoughts?

Access means "have the item here right now" not merely "being able to buy the item"
Well, for one thing, there's no such item as a "Cloak of the Berserker".  I don't think you can use Transfer Enchantment to create a non-standard item.

For another thing, as I understand it, what Transfer Enchantment does is move an *existing* enchantment from one item onto another item (as long as the new item is a legal "recipient" for it).  You'd need to *start* with a Badge of the Berserker, and then transfer it onto another item (which would be silly, anyway, since the only legal thing you could place it on is another "badge").

The "Cloak of the Berserker" would be more for RP flavor than having mechanical effects.  It would still be an item that takes up the neck slot.

I agree with you on the "standard" use of Transfer Enchantment.  That's why my earlier post is couched in the language of the CCG, which relies on having access to the item quality, not necessarily possession of the item itself.  The way I read it, this creates a significant difference in the way the ritual is used in LFR.

So here's the logic.  I'm a level 7 Ranger.  I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item).  By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2.  That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.

RAW, this should work.  RAI, it's admittedly shady.  Thoughts?

Access means "have the item here right now" not merely "being able to buy the item"

Does it?  That's basically the difference between RAW and RAI in this case.

According to M-W, access is "freedom or ability to obtain or make use of something."  That doesn't seem to imply possession.  The CCG could just as easily have said "as long as you have possession of an item with the quality.
I ran into a unique situation last night, and I wanted to run it by the boards before I went through with it.  A guy at my LFR table offered to use Transfer Enchantment to turn my +2 Elven Cloak into a +2 Badge of the Berserker.  When I asked him how this was possible, he offered the following from the CCG:

[pg. 9] "You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item . . . as long as you have access to the quality."

[pg. 9] "You can purchase any magic item that is equal to or less than your level with gold, as long as you have access to it. See "Player Resources" on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals / formulas are accessible by your character."

So here's the logic.  I'm a level 7 Ranger.  I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item).  By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2.  That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.

RAW, this should work.  RAI, it's admittedly shady.  Thoughts?



Since the ritual requires that you have the two items physically in your grasp for the duration of the ritual, I believe you're out of luck. You'd need to physically have both, ie - bought or found both items. [Edit: To be clear, I don't believe that the CCG re-writes the ritual so you don't need to have the items in your hands ... I believe that in this case, the ritual is as specific as you can get in the "specific overrides general" rule and therefore the CCG would have to be a lot more explicit if it was going to re-write how the ritual worked, up to and including actually providing a different version of the ritual text.]

I agree that the generally accepted interpretation is that you can't transfer from ... say a cloak to a badge ... but the Ritual says "You transfer the magical properties ... into another object." And that it must be the same "type" as the original item. I'm not sure that Cloaks and Badges are a "type" in the same way that swords (Heavy Blades) and daggers (Light Blades) are.  And since the Badge of the Berserker and the Elven Cloak don't have anything that says that they are only valid on "Badges" or "Cloaks" in the way that say ... a Dragonscale Armor says it can only on Scale armor, you might be on to something.

But I think it is safest to assume you can't do this. Too much likelihood of table variation.
I'm still on the fence about this, and I think all of the points made on this thread are valid.  But to play Devil's Advocate, there isn't one piece of text anywhere that says anything about purchasing or owning the item.  Add this to the CCG's text about "access," and there's enough ambiguity to make this move permissible. Since having "access" to items in LFR makes them readily available, I could presumably get my hands on a +2 Badge of the Berserker long enough to perform the ritual.

[And I know what you're thinking: No shopkeeper is going to let me perform the ritual in their store.  But if such "shopkeepers" did in fact exist, why can't I just trade my +2 Elven Cloak straight up for a +2 BoB?  They both have the same value.]

There are always concerns about table variation, but to be honest, I don't think that the result here is really earth-shattering.  I'm simply changing one Level 7 item into another, and gaining a property that's more suited to my character.  It seems to me that 25gp is a much more reasonable cost for this than 2,080gp (+2 Badge of the Berserker - 20% of a +2 Elven Cloak).
I'm still on the fence about this, and I think all of the points made on this thread are valid.  But to play Devil's Advocate, there isn't one piece of text anywhere that says anything about purchasing or owning the item.  Add this to the CCG's text about "access," and there's enough ambiguity to make this move permissible. Since having "access" to items in LFR makes them readily available, I could presumably get my hands on a +2 Badge of the Berserker long enough to perform the ritual.



Even if we took your reasoning on everything else, this is the one area where I don't think you're going to get anyone to "buy" your argument. Heh.

Sure, the CCG doesn't say you have to own the item ... that leaves open the possibility of you transferring the enchantment for a friend (which is as intended). However, if -you- want the item, and don't currently "possess" the item, the only way for you to get one ... is to buy it.

As you said, shopkeepers should never let you cast rituals on their wares, and neither should the GMs.

And I am not touching the lawyerese attempt at redefining "access".

Teh biggest issue at hand is that Elven and Berserker are not the same enchantment.  You have to transfer the same enchantment from one item to another.  You can't change what it is.

If I have a +1 flaming longsword, I can't transfer it to a spear and make it a +1 viscious spear.  It has to be a +1 flaming spear.  So how he thinks he can go from +2 Elven Cloak to +2 Badeg of the Berserker when they aren't the same enchantmnbet is beyond me.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Teh biggest issue at hand is that Elven and Berserker are not the same enchantment.  You have to transfer the same enchantment from one item to another.  You can't change what it is.

If I have a +1 flaming longsword, I can't transfer it to a spear and make it a +1 viscious spear.  It has to be a +1 flaming spear.  So how he thinks he can go from +2 Elven Cloak to +2 Badeg of the Berserker when they aren't the same enchantmnbet is beyond me.

That's based on the language of the CCG:

"If you want to make any other change to a magic item, you must use the Transfer Enchantment ritual found in the Adventurer’s Vault and pay the appropriate costs for use. You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item or add a quality to a magic item that does not have one, as long as you have access to the quality (see the Transfer Enchantment ritual for more details)."

"See “Player Resources” on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals/formulas are accessible by your character."

I've said this above, but the logic goes that since I have "access" to a +2 Badge of the Berserker, I can transfer its enchantment to overwrite +2 Elven Cloak for 25gp plus the difference in cost between the two items (which is, in this case, 0). Again, it seems that 25gp is a much more reasonable cost for this than 2,080gp.
I just thought of an alternate reading, using the market price.  Based on LFR "access," there's presumably a place that would offer both magical items and Transfer Enchantment rituals. Also, based on LFR "access," there are an infinite number of +2 Badges of the Berserker at said place.  So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.

Does this seem more legitimate?
I just thought of an alternate reading, using the market price.  Based on LFR "access," there's presumably a place that would offer both magical items and Transfer Enchantment rituals. Also, based on LFR "access," there are an infinite number of +2 Badges of the Berserker at said place.  So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.

Does this seem more legitimate?

No.  There is no part of this hypothetical which is anything except wishful thinking and hopeful misreading.  There is no way that you can frame this situation in such a way as to receive any answer except that what you're trying to do is completely against the rules.

The statement you quote about transferring qualities is merely expanding on your ability to use the Transfer Enchantment ritual.

"If you want to make any other change to a magic item, you must use the Transfer Enchantment ritual found in the Adventurer’s Vault and pay the appropriate costs for use. You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item or add a quality to a magic item that does not have one, as long as you have access to the quality (see the Transfer Enchantment ritual for more details). See “Enchanting Magic Items” in Adventurer’s Vault, page 198 for more information."

The Transfer Enchantment ritual requires you to physically possess both the item with the quality you want to transfer and the item to which you are transferring the quality.  Nothing in these rules removes that requirement.  At most, the "as long as you have access to the quality" serves only as an additional limiting function--you need to both possess the item and have access to the quality (as the rules define access).

Nothing in this section removes the normal requirements to physically possess the magic item from which you are transferring the quality, and in fact, the citation to a specific page number and instruction to go read the ritual for more details indicates pretty clearly that all of the normal rules for the ritual apply.
No.  There is no part of this hypothetical which is anything except wishful thinking and hopeful misreading.  There is no way that you can frame this situation in such a way as to receive any answer except that what you're trying to do is completely against the rules.

Woah...let's take it down a notch.

This isn't something I'm trying to weasel.  I wanted to put the idea through its paces because I'm part of a group of 80+ LFR players that are treating Transfer Enchantment the way I've described.  A couple people purchased the ritual scroll, and any time they play the character who purchased it, they're telling everyone else at the table to take any bundle they want and then pay 25gp to change it to any other item of the same type and level.

So, before I raised a conniption, I wanted to work all the angles.  That's it.  Thanks for your help.
I just thought of an alternate reading, using the market price.  Based on LFR "access," there's presumably a place that would offer both magical items and Transfer Enchantment rituals. Also, based on LFR "access," there are an infinite number of +2 Badges of the Berserker at said place.  So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.

Does this seem more legitimate?



Access to an something in the CCG means that it is allowed for you to use as a player resource.  When the CCG says you can use the ritual as long as you have access, this is putting a restriction on you to only transfer enchantments allowed to you as player resources.  It is not enabling you to bypass the normal usage of the ritual.  The CCG saying you have access to something does not mean you automatically can get physical contact with the item (which is needed for the ritual).

Lets look at some of what the ritual says

You transfer the magical qualities (properties, powers, and enhancement bonus) of an enchanted item into another object.  This means you move the qualities from one item to another.  You move them all at once. It says nothing about moving one piece and not the others (so you cannot move a +2 enhancement bonus and not move the properties and powers, it is all or nothing).  Since the qualities are transferred, the original item is no longer a magic item, it does not have magical qualities anymore. 

You can transfer an enchantment to an item that already contains a lower-level enchantment, but the receiving item’s previous magic is lost.  You could not take a +2 magic weapon and a +1 flaming weapon, and use transfer enchantment to combine them into a +2 flaming weapon.  The +1 flaming part is lost when you transfer over the +2 enhancement bonus. You end up with a non-magical weapon and a +2 magic weapon.

You must maintain physical contact with both items for the duration of the ritual. You need a way to gain physical contact.  The CCG saying you have access does not automatically meet this requirement, so how do we get physical contact with an item?

1. buy the item
2. the item is found in the adventure somewhere
3. another player has the item

For 1, if you buy the item you would not have a need for the ritual any more

For 2, note that your example of a place where there are infinite badges of the berserker does not work here.  Yes, there are infinite badges for sale, and you can buy them at the beginning or end of any adventure.  There is not any place in an adventure where you can go to gain access to infinite badges without buying them, unless the adventure specifically says so.  If the adventure text has no badge of the berserker in it, you cannot access it anywhere in the adventure unless you buy it (or if a player has it). You can only buy items at the start, end, and sometimes during an adventure.  You cannot make up your own place where you go between adventures and there are items laying around for you to pick up and use rituals on.  The CCG says the DM cannot change the treasure in an adventure, so he cannot put a badge in there somewhere for you to use in your ritual. He cannot create a place in the adventure where items are available for you to use without buying.  If a badge was already treasure in the adventure, you could possibly use the ritual during the adventure to transfer the qualities to an item you already have, but that might count as taking the item as a bundle since you would be leaving the adventure with a part of that item.

For 3, it might be possible to do it but the player you got the item from would have to consent to lose their magic item.  The CCG lets you use transfer enchantment for another player, so you could have them provide the scroll and component cost, and use the ritual for them to transfer their item's qualities into your item, leaving them with a non-magical item.  However, it might not work.  This might break the rule about not being able to receive treasure from another player character.  Their item's qualities are transferred to your item, so you could be considered to be receiving a part of their treasure.


A couple people  purchased the ritual scroll, and any time they play the character who purchased it,  they're telling everyone else at the table to take any bundle they want and then pay 25gp to  change it to any other item of the same type and level.



From the CCG rules, whenever you cast a ritual for another player, they have to provide you with the ritual scroll, so it would cost 200gp to have someone else do a Transfer Enchantment for you (consumable ritual scroll + component cost), not 25.  You cannot use your own scroll or the ritual book for a ritual you have mastered to perform a ritual for another player, you have to use the scroll provided by the other player.

Woah...let's take it down a notch.

This isn't something I'm trying to weasel.  I wanted to put the idea through its paces because I'm part of a group of 80+ LFR players that are treating Transfer Enchantment the way I've described.  A couple people purchased the ritual scroll, and any time they play the character who purchased it, they're telling everyone else at the table to take any bundle they want and then pay 25gp to change it to any other item of the same type and level.


So, before I raised a conniption, I wanted to work all the angles.  That's it.  Thanks for your help.



Yah, I think that's totally fair.

It should be self-evident that Transfer Enchantment doesn't work that way. Logically speaking, if it was intended for players to be able to turn any item from a given slot into any other item of the same level from that slot, the treasure bundles would all be "take one neck slot item of level 9 or less." For example.

I wouldn't try to convince your problem players unless the logic above would work on them. If they're exuding that "ha ha, I got away with something vibe," it's not going to help. I think you're right on RAW, because nobody has parsed every word of the CCG with a fine-toothed comb and considered how each of those words were used in every D&D rulebook. "Access" has multiple meanings. In this case, different meanings were intended.

(Remember a couple of months ago when I was noting that people will always find more loopholes, and that trying to stay ahead of them is fruitless? Yeah.)

So I'd get a ruling from your group organizers. Some people will still cheat; not much you can do about that. It should stem the tide of people who are being conned by the cheaters. 
So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.

If you pay the market cost for the BoB, why would also want to trade your elven enhancement? You pay the market costs and then have the BoB and the elven

So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.

If you pay the market cost for the BoB, why would also want to trade your elven enhancement? You pay the market costs and then have the BoB and the elven


I meant the market cost for the ritual, presuming that whoever is doing the ritual also has an infinite number of whatever item I want (based on "access") to provide the correct enchantment.

Thanlis, I think the sentiment is more that someone's found this "great thing" that can be done, and others would rather just take advantage of it than be a buzzkill and argue that it can't be done.  Luckily, like I said above, the result here isn't earth-shattering.  It's basically changing one Level 7 item into another.  To be honest, the low ratio of useful items in LFR mods makes me wonder if some version of this "market cost" interpretation wouldn't be a good candidate for the CCG 2.0.

No.  There is no part of this hypothetical which is anything except wishful thinking and hopeful misreading.  There is no way that you can frame this situation in such a way as to receive any answer except that what you're trying to do is completely against the rules.

Woah...let's take it down a notch.

This isn't something I'm trying to weasel.  I wanted to put the idea through its paces because I'm part of a group of 80+ LFR players that are treating Transfer Enchantment the way I've described.  A couple people purchased the ritual scroll, and any time they play the character who purchased it, they're telling everyone else at the table to take any bundle they want and then pay 25gp to change it to any other item of the same type and level.

So, before I raised a conniption, I wanted to work all the angles.  That's it.  Thanks for your help.



In other words, you are part of a group of 80+ LFR players that are cheating.  If I had to guess, the vast majority of them are unaware they are cheating and only a few are aware of the fact (in fact, most likely some of the ones who are suggesting the trick).  You are now aware that it is cheating.  My only question is will you do the honorable thing and advise your group, do the cowardly thing and say nothing, or do the dishonorable thing and cheat as well?

-SYB
My only question is will you do the honorable thing and advise your group, do the cowardly thing and say nothing, or do the dishonorable thing and cheat as well?



[VCL Hat]

SYB, that's absolutely uncalled for.  Knock it off.

[/VCL Hat]
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"

Thanlis, I think the sentiment is more that someone's found this "great thing" that can be done, and others would rather just take advantage of it than be a buzzkill and argue that it can't be done.  Luckily, like I said above, the result here isn't earth-shattering.  It's basically changing one Level 7 item into another.


Oh, I think it's pretty earth-shattering. Let's pull back the covers and look at the end result of this chain of logic.  

You've phrased this in terms of same level enchantments throughout the thread. However, I don't see why this trick would be limited to that based on your logic. You have access to any magic item of your level or less, correct? So in theory, you should be able to choose any level 7 weapon quality, and transfer that property to the non-magic weapon you just bought. For a total cost of 25 gold.

Is your earth shattered yet? 

Thanlis, I think the sentiment is more that someone's found this "great thing" that can be done, and others would rather just take advantage of it than be a buzzkill and argue that it can't be done.  Luckily, like I said above, the result here isn't earth-shattering.  It's basically changing one Level 7 item into another.


Oh, I think it's pretty earth-shattering. Let's pull back the covers and look at the end result of this chain of logic.  

You've phrased this in terms of same level enchantments throughout the thread. However, I don't see why this trick would be limited to that based on your logic. You have access to any magic item of your level or less, correct? So in theory, you should be able to choose any level 7 weapon quality, and transfer that property to the non-magic weapon you just bought. For a total cost of 25 gold.

Is your earth shattered yet?

Good point. A magic item is not required as the receiver of transfer enchantment, it's actually the last thing that you should ever do with transfer enchantment. Want to transfer the +2 flaming from your longsword to your +1 bastard sword? Transfer it to a newly bought normal bastard sword and just sell your +1 bastard sword, no reason at all to waste the +1 magic you already have.

So following the lenient interpretation of access you could always get any item of your level and less for just 25 gp + costs of non-magical base item

Good point. A magic item is not required as the receiver of transfer enchantment, it's actually the last thing that you should ever do with transfer enchantment. Want to transfer the +2 flaming from your longsword to your +1 bastard sword? Transfer it to a newly bought normal bastard sword and just sell your +1 bastard sword, no reason at all to waste the +1 magic you already have.

So following the lenient interpretation of access you could always get any item of your level and less for just 25 gp + costs of non-magical base item


But nothing prevents this from happening in a home game, correct?

I think I failed to consider that possibility because the way the "trick" was described to me, you'd have to add on the difference in cost between two items of different levels.  So, to boost a lv5 to a lv6 using Transfer Enchantment and "access" would cost (1,800-1,000)+25=825gp.

That's an excellent point though.  I'm almost mad that I didn't think of it at the time.
A home game is a whole different ball of wax.  (i.e. a true home game, not a private LFGR game played at someone's home)  The DM can do whatever he wants in a hoem game.  In LFR, that's not the case.  There is no ritual that will allow you to change an enchantment on an item in 4e.  To change an enchantment requires disenchanting one item and creating a new one via EMI.

EMI can be used to upgrade the bonus on an item, or to grant an enchantment (or property if you like that term, 4e seems to use the two interchangeably) when all it has is a bonus.  Transfer just moves from one item to another.

So I'm not sure what you mean about upgrading froma lvl 5 to a lvl 6.  In general that isn't possible either because the enchantment is by + in which case they are 5 levels apart (+1 item is lvl 1, +2 is lvl 6 and so on) or they are leveled by tier in which case it's a 10 level jump.  As such, there technically isn't any lvl5 to 6 upgrade that can be done with EMI (not transfer, because remember, transfer doesn't create or change, only move).
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
A home game is a whole different ball of wax.  (i.e. a true home game, not a private LFGR game played at someone's home)  The DM can do whatever he wants in a hoem game.  In LFR, that's not the case.  There is no ritual that will allow you to change an enchantment on an item in 4e.  To change an enchantment requires disenchanting one item and creating a new one via EMI.

EMI can be used to upgrade the bonus on an item, or to grant an enchantment (or property if you like that term, 4e seems to use the two interchangeably) when all it has is a bonus.  Transfer just moves from one item to another.

So I'm not sure what you mean about upgrading froma lvl 5 to a lvl 6.  In general that isn't possible either because the enchantment is by + in which case they are 5 levels apart (+1 item is lvl 1, +2 is lvl 6 and so on) or they are leveled by tier in which case it's a 10 level jump.  As such, there technically isn't any lvl5 to 6 upgrade that can be done with EMI (not transfer, because remember, transfer doesn't create or change, only move).

Yeah, you're completely right.  I was just describing the way that Transfer Enchantment is being used by those people in my LFR group. 

When I said "home game," I meant playing the rules completely by letter.  So, if a group of PCs was able to sneak into a powerful wizard's house and get 1 hour without being found, they could use TE to strip the enchantment off his powerful +6 wand or whatever without having to steal the item.

But nothing prevents this from happening in a home game, correct?

You mean except that the RPGA CCG, on whose unfortunate phrase this whole argument is based, has absolutely no meaning for a homegame?

I think I failed to consider that possibility because the way the "trick" was described to me, you'd have to add on the difference in cost between two items of different levels.  So, to boost a lv5 to a lv6 using Transfer Enchantment and "access" would cost (1,800-1,000)+25=825gp.

Actually that would be unnecessary. TE has no "difference cost", only EMI has. So if you assume that "access" is meant in the necessary way you would get the new enchantment without having to pay the difference, as the TE ritual doesn't have a different cost clause.
So, if a group of PCs was able to sneak into a powerful wizard's house and get 1 hour without being found, they could use TE to strip the enchantment off his powerful +6 wand or whatever without having to steal the item.


Why would they do this? Nothing but a waste of time, just grap the wand and leave. It's not as if the wizard would be any less angry when you leave him an ordinary wand instead of no wand at all.
But if such "shopkeepers" did in fact exist, why can't I just trade my +2 Elven Cloak straight up for a +2 BoB?  They both have the same value.


Because:
a) your cloak is used
b) shopkeepers want to make a profit.

Because:
a) your cloak is used
b) shopkeepers want to make a profit.



Indeed.  In a world in which the standing value which such a shopkeeper would give you for buying your used magic item is 20%, why would you expect a 1-for-1 trade?
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
You can't use the Transfer Enchantment ritual to create a different enchantment/property/etc. All you can do is move it (transfer it) to a different object of the same general type (weapon, etc).

I don't see any reason why you couldn't make a 'cloak of the berserker' out of a 'badge of the berserker' (since both are neck items, and neither says 'any cloak, or 'any badge', etc). But you can't change a +2 Elven Cloak into some other magic item like a Badge of the Berserker.

Basically, TE exists to allow you to move your favorite enchantment from one weapon to another, or one armor to another, as your character changes/evolves. Maybe you started using Longswords, and later decided scimitars are better for you - move your enchantment from your favorite magic longsword over to a scimitar. Maybe you started wearing chain or scale, and have learned to wear plate instead - move the enchantment from your old suit of scale over to your new suit of plate.

But you can't use TE to completely bypass the bundles in LFR adventures. If you want a Symbol of the Holy Nimbus +1, sell some other magic goodies (at 20%) and buy one - but you can't use TE to turn the Symbol of Life +1 you just found into a different kind of Holy Symbol. You could use TE to upgrade the enchanment from a +1 to a +2 (assuming you are of sufficient level to buy a +2), and only pay the difference in cost between the +1 and the +2...but it wouldn't change from a Symbol of Life into some other kind of Holy Symbol.
But nothing prevents this from happening in a home game, correct?

What you are trying to do is not something that the Transfer Enchantment ritual does.

You're arguing that it can do this because they're a line in the CCG which you're interpreting as saying you can use the Transfer Enchantment in such a fashion in the LFR campaign.  Quite obviously, that line has absolutely on effect in a home game.

Transfer Enchantment lets you start with a +1 flaming longsword and a normal dagger, and end up with a normal longsword and a +1 flaming dagger.  Or, instead, you can start with a +1 flaming longsword and a +1 vicious dagger, and end up with a normal longsword and a +1 flaming dagger, if you would like to waste a magic dagger for absolutely no benefit.  It transfers a magical quality from one item to another, wiping out any lower-level magical effect on the receiving item.  That is all it does.
Let me ask this question then:

+3 Sylvan Armor to +3 Displacer Armor, Lvl 14 character, how much will it cost?

TE: +3 Sylvan to +3 Magical (175 Market Cost)
then pay the upgrade Cost from +3 Magical to +3 Displacer? (12000)

for a grand total of 12175? Even though it's one level apart?
Let me ask this question then:

+3 Sylvan Armor to +3 Displacer Armor, Lvl 14 character, how much will it cost?

TE: +3 Sylvan to +3 Magical (175 Market Cost)
then pay the upgrade Cost from +3 Magical to +3 Displacer? (12000)

for a grand total of 12175? Even though it's one level apart?



As I understand it, that wouldn't work.

Transfer Enchantment can't be used to create "vanilla" +3 magical armor from a suit of +3 sylvan armor.  It can only be used to move the entirety of the "+3 sylvan" enchantment from one suit to another.

So, to go from +3 sylvan to +3 displacer, as I understand it, the only route is:
- Sell the +3 sylvan armor for 3,400 gold
- Buy the +3 displacer armor for 21,000 gold (or, a net of 17,600)
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
My understanding is that you can always down-level but not up-level.
(+3 Sylvan to +3 Magical) [Lvl 13 to Lvl 11].
I also thought you could use the TE to create residium

So, in other words, upgrading from +3 Magical to +3 Displacer
is the cheapest way to upgrade within the +3 Armor types?

That just doesn't sound right.



Let me ask this question then:

+3 Sylvan Armor to +3 Displacer Armor, Lvl 14 character, how much will it cost?

You can't get there from here.

If you have a suit of +3 sylvan armor, the only thing you can upgrade it to is +4 sylvan armor.

You can upgrade a plain vanilla +3 magic armor to a higher-level magical armor by paying the difference between them.  That is the only time you can change the magical quality of the armor.

Transfer Enchantment can't be used to change the enchantment in any way, merely transfer it.

You can take a suit of +3 sylvan leather armor and suit of normal hide armor, and end up with a suit of normal leather armor and +3 sylvan hide armor.

There is no legal way to downgrade +3 sylvan armor to +3 magic armor, nor upgrade +3 sylvan armor to +4 magic armor, or in any way somehow change +3 sylvan armor to +3 displacer armor.
I guess the basis of my question was, can you transfer the +3 portion of the armor and not the sylvan portion, almost like a disenchantment. Since the +3 sylvan armor is really a +3 magical armor with the sylvan property (two separate and indistinct properties)

For instance I can transfer +2 dwarven from scale to plate making it +2 dwarven plate.
That much I know.

(I'm not a wizard-playing type so please forgive me)
I thought there was a ritual that allows you to transfer the magical elements of an item and create
residium, I thought that's what TE did.
can you transfer the +3 portion of the armor and not the sylvan portion

No.

almost like a disenchantment.

That's not what the ritual Disenchant Magic Item does either. It does this --> you touch a magic item and destroy it, turning it into a quantity of residuum valued at one-fifth of the item’s price.

Note, the item is destroyed. There is nothing left other than residuum.

Since the +3 sylvan armor is really a +3 magical armor with the sylvan property (two separate and indistinct properties)

Linguistically, maybe, but in game terms it "+3 sylvan armor", full stop. It is neither "+3 armor" nor "sylvan armor".
Since the +3 sylvan armor is really a +3 magical armor with the sylvan property (two separate and indistinct properties)



As Joshua has noted...actually, this isn't the case.  Once you have +3 sylvan armor, the "+3" and the "sylvan" can't be separated.

Being able to upgrade a "vanilla" +X item to a +x with a property (such as "+3 magic" to "+3 sylvan") is a unique situation.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Is this the new cheese that I smell?

Awesomeface.png
As I said, I'm no ritual-casting expert, nor even a full-time wizard(part time only).
Leaders and defenders for me.

I appreciate all responses, it makes my decision for which armor I found much easier
(going with the +3 Magical) because I want me Displacer Armor in the end.
I was thinking of taking the Sylvan and TE'ing it when I hit level 14. But since it's not
possible, I'm going with +3 Magical as my found item. I'd much rather pay 12K rather than 17600.
You can upgrade a plain vanilla +3 magic armor to a higher-level magical armor by paying the difference between them.  That is the only time you can change the magical quality of the armor.



And you have to use the EMI ritual.  Only the bonus can be upgraded without the ritual.

Since the +3 sylvan armor is really a +3 magical armor with the sylvan property (two separate and indistinct properties)



As Joshua has noted...actually, this isn't the case.  Once you have +3 sylvan armor, the "+3" and the "sylvan" can't be separated.

Being able to upgrade a "vanilla" +X item to a +x with a property (such as "+3 magic" to "+3 sylvan") is a unique situation.



You guys are on the right track but not quite there, although truth be told this is just semantics, so ignore this if you want. 

They aren't two seperate properties/enchantments.  Every seperate weapon enchantment has the bonus inherent to them.  What we like to call "vanilla" (+x magic weapon or +x magic armor) is it's own discrete enchantment.  The ability to then make it go from +x weapon to +x flaming weapon (for example) is, in actuality, changing the total enchantment on the weapon, but was allowed under the updated EMI ritual rules in AV.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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