Modularity: A Guide to CO Tricks and Tactics

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Ok, here is my stab at the undying trick...

Sub-Zero Fighting

The Trick

A revenant with fierce vitality, or a barbarian with enduring rage won't fall unconscious below zero hitpoints. Make sure to autosucceed the death save (life charm to take 10, or PP/item combination to get to 20 to use a healing surge). This effectively adds +50% hitpoints, but the real benefits lie in the expanisons...

Expansion

Below zero benefits:
revenant(shadar kai) + deathless warrior: reduce damage by 5+conmod
revenant + ghostly vitality: gain insubstantial
=> combine with ring of free time, assuming con 28
effective DR: 38

addon: rogue with cunning sneak and sehaines mark of dark moon
effective DR: 76

and anything that makes you even tougher (battlerager, swarm druid...)

Undying
ED: Raven consort:  get the effects of a healing surge without spending one by rolling 20+ on death save (easy with PP and some items)
=> enemies must reduce you below negative bloodied, breaking a DR of 76, in one turn - otherwise, you return to positive + HS value.

[sblockTrick Synergy]
Anything that works with bloodied or triggers off below 0.


Cheese ratings

No wierd RAW interpritations

Other Info

It's still possible to die by going negitive bloodied.

[/sblock]
Other synergies & contributors to dying-but-not-staying-dead worth mentioning:
- Potent Rebirth (Deva heroic feat): +2 untyped to attack & damage after being reduced to 0 even once.
- Death Song Ring: Enemies within 5 take 3 necrotic when you succeed at a death save.
- Potions of Spirit: Easy-to-get power bonus to death saves (if you don't want to rely on a leader)
- Unfailing Vigor (PHB3 heroic feat preview; no prereqs): Spend a surge if you roll 18-20 on a death save.
- Natural Rebirth (Shaman util 22 encounter): You must be dying to benefit from this, but it lasts all encounter.  Gain immunity to effects that immobilize, restrain, or slow.

There are also a few very entertaining things which interact best if you do not avoid falling unconscious:
- Upright Revival (Deva heroic feat): Stand & shift 1 after regaining consciousness.
- Winged Revival (Deva epic feat): Fly your speed after the stand-up part of Upright Revival.
- Death's Thane (Thunderborn barb PP): Make death saves at the start of your turn.
- Timely Revival (human epic feat): Make death saves at the start of your turn, and get to spend second wind on top of the surge if you roll a 20+.
- Guardian Spirit (Protector shaman paragon feat): Unconscious allies next to the spirit gain Resist 20 all and +2 to death saves.
- Reinforcing Belt: You can't be the subject of a coup de grace.

Those latter ones are, in my opinion, some of the most entertaining ones, and the least OP.  The image of a deva thunderborn barbarian (!) who continually gets back up at the start of his turn, wallops you mightily, and then falls down dead-and-basically-invulnerable only to get back up again in time to swoop down upon his foes... I like that a lot.
You'd have to make him a Raven Consort, though, or he'd run out of surges - and that requires shadar-kai or revenant shadar-kai.  Sadly, the only way to be both shadar-kai and deva is to be reincarnate champion, which rather conflicts with the Raven Consort side of things.  I don't suppose there's anything in the deva bloodline feats that would let you take deva feats, is there?
You'd have to make him a Raven Consort, though, or he'd run out of surges - and that requires shadar-kai or revenant shadar-kai.  Sadly, the only way to be both shadar-kai and deva is to be reincarnate champion, which rather conflicts with the Raven Consort side of things.  I don't suppose there's anything in the deva bloodline feats that would let you take deva feats, is there?

You start at 0 when you heal, so "Unkillable's" use less surges then everyone else, not more.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Another addition to the list: Blooded Champion, the minotaur racial PP in PHB3.  The level 16 ability keeps you conscious sub-zero until you fail a death save.  Probably not the most optimal choice, but it does fall under the same theme--again, probably a reincarnate champion.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

For the charging trick, there are a few options that were missed:


The Surprising Charge feat is rather conditional, but not too hard to fulfill the conditions.  It combines well with a druid using an Alfsair Spear and charging into a flank.


In addition, charging Druids can slide with their MBA or grant CA to the next attack on the same target.


As well, Druids have access to at least three feats that buff charges: Enraged Boar Form, Stampede, and Predator's Burst.  All of the above require beast form, and the last requires the Primal Predator class feature.

Altair Spear + Polearm Momemtum + Savage Rend?  Blue-Munster Cheese.  Using a feat with "because I hit you with this special weapon" flavor in an implement attack emulating a cat with claws...

Muenster is a yellowish-white cheese, not a blue cheese.
Splitting a Fey Charge with the boots, stopping on each side of your target?  Ok, that's cheese.

It's not legal, unless you some how pick up the Rogue class so you can take the Roundabout Charge feat.

However, the entire Arcane Divine Feycharger - the most seriously overpowered Feycharger build - is a mass of feats and features each one working exactly the way it is supposed to.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)

I just learned myself: zones and zone-like effects created by players do impede forced movement.  I don't really get it, but the FAQ says so.




Yikes.
Can you provide a link for this info? My google-fu must be weak tonite.

From the PHB FAQ (wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...)

27. Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?



There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).


A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
You have to pay the extra squares when a zone/wall says it costs extra movement points to walk in it.

However, if the zone/wall merely designates that the squares become difficult terrain, forced movememt ignores this.

It's not particularly intuitive.

Unkillable

The basic is being able to operate at negative HP. This is usually achieved by:
Revenant race
Fierce Vitality or the Avenging Haunt PP (with the first you need to pump your saves because after failing two you become unconscious, with the second after 16th level you're always conscious until you die)
Ghostly Vitality to be fully operative and insubstantial below 0HP

This basis can be improved by anything that improves you death saving throws (or all your saving throws) to get automatic healing by rolling 20 or more on a death saving throw. Some possibilities are:
God Fragment PP
Horizon Walker PP
Flamebrow Commander PP
Several items like Verve Armor, Periapt of Recovery, Nullifying Ring
Some feats like Death Scorned, Unyielding Fortitude or Eerie Resurgence

Some of these bonuses stack, some don't, so you need to find a compromise.

The peak of this trick is the (in)famous Raven Consort ED, with its 24th level feature Cycle of Life that allows surgeless healing if you roll more than 20 on a Death Saving Throw. It is worth noting than an Eternal Seeker can take Cycle of Life at 30th level and allow a different build (ok, 30th level is pretty late...).

On top of that you can also add anything that gives you DR or absorbs damage, like a Ring of Free Time or the Deathless Warrior feat.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

There's a weapon that let's you do extra damage when bloodied.  Your bloodied when below 0.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Warforged can take 10 on death saves, and if they are trained in Endurance, can take the Diehard utility power at level 16, which lets them continue fighting (albeit with the dazed condition) at negative hp. I wonder if it's possible to add up enough (death) saving throw bonuses to where a Warforged could take 10 on the death save and still trigger a healing surge?
Short answer: yes.  Yes it is.  In fact, it's possible for certain builds to get to 20 death save from 0.  This is generally done with Shadar-Kai, thoug, to take advantage of Raven Queen Consort.  A fully built character of this type would rather be dying than dazed - the most annoying part left of dying is the being prone bit.
You don't fall prone when dying. You fall prone if you're unconscious, so these builds will not have that problem.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)


Unkillable

The basic is being able to operate at negative HP. This is usually achieved by:
Revenant race
Fierce Vitality or the Avenging Haunt PP (with the first you need to pump your saves because after failing two you become unconscious, with the second after 16th level you're always conscious until you die)
Ghostly Vitality to be fully operative and insubstantial below 0HP

This basis can be improved by anything that improves you death saving throws (or all your saving throws) to get automatic healing by rolling 20 or more on a death saving throw. Some possibilities are:



Another one worth mentioning is the Raven Herald PP for +4 bonus to death saving throws.

Also, the heroic level feat Unfailing Vigor from PHB3 allows you to spend a healing surge if you roll 18-20 on a death saving throw.
You don't fall prone when dying. You fall prone if you're unconscious, so these builds will not have that problem.



True - though there is a similar build that doesn't actually bother with the "function while dying" and instead makes sure to give itself auto-20 death saves at the beginning of its turn.

Actually, the Eternal Seeker trick is a great way to get the Raven Consort benefit without being a Shadar-Kai or revenant Shadar-Kai, which opens up a whole new host of possibilities (for those who only care about level 30, anyway).
I remeber that the first Undying builds came out before the revenant and they effectively had the prone issue.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

I'm surpised no one has considered the Self-Forged PP from the EPH...Added Resistance could work if the death saving throw bonuses apply when you take 10. Not sure though...

Duplicate Ritual
aka Fools Gold ain't even half the fun
 
The Trick
Duplicate the non-magical components (as listed in the PHB) of most rituals.

Expansions
Can create the otherwise unknown components of rituals, that have no listed cost.

Trick Synergy
see Fools Gold ritual, but now you can make platinum pieces too.
The EpicD that has the level 30 rituals cast in 1 round ability, can be even more useful now; using lots more rituals. It's a long way to go and wait for some interesting effects.

Links
not really - there was minor discussion of Lich Ritual(s) very early on, but off site.

Cheese ratings

MEGA-cheese ... for doing a Fools Gold deluxe; don't do it
MEGA-cheese ... for making Magic Items this way, totally screws the moolah economy; don't do it
Semi-cheese ..... for doing the Undead Grafts in Open Grave, but there are direct weaknesses applied; try it
Semi-cheese ... for being a way to do the various rituals listed in the MM and other books that are strongly implied to be off limits for PCs, by believers in teh non-ritualhood of rituals they don't like; try it with trembling knees

Not really cheese ... for ditching the component cost of rituals except for the duplicate ritual itself. This is a commonly reported houserule, all across the 4e blogo-posto-sphere, now mostly legit.

Other important notes
Again the houserule is the key. But this makes it legit. DMs need to understand how this changes their home game, ahead of time. Wandering Monsters happen in different places and circumstances.

Credit to Brilliantgameolgists for the initial synopsis[/sblock] 

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

hey - golem, you haven't actually said anything about *how* to perform this mghty feat - and ritual components totally have a listed cost.
hey - golem, you haven't actually said anything about *how* to perform this mghty feat - and ritual components totally have a listed cost.



Maybe his character intends to use the fake gold to buy the components? But when the ritual effect ended the character would be hunted by the law for defrauding the merchant(s).
Not spectacular by any means, but something that occurred to me when looking over the new PHB3 feats:

Overwhelming Critical + Rending Axe + Headsman's Chop

When you score a critical, you knock him prone, follow up with an MBA which gets +5 damage.

It's minimal damage for most builds, but if you have a crit-fisher builds, it gets more powerful, especially if you have an ardent champion avenger, which gets expanded crit-range and an extra attack after a critical, so that by epic you're getting an average of 2.5 follow-up attacks after every critical.

And if you have some way to expand your Crit range to 18-20 (might I suggest Blessed Weapon and Solar Enemy?), you get an average of 2.75 follow-up attacks.
DS: problem is that Blessed Weapon is no longer salvable, and Solar Enemy is now only a few rounds.  It's an interesting combination, to be sure, but I'd be more interested in a way that could do it more reliably - say, Headsman's Chop, Throw-and-stab, and some way to knock people prone with the thrown attack (possibly a lightning spear, park of Storm and Polearm Momentum, though that's starting to get awfully feat-heavy, and requires dual-wielding weapons of different types)
hey - golem, you haven't actually said anything about *how* to perform this mghty feat - and ritual components totally have a listed cost.



Specific example:
Religion (check) based rituals use "... incense ..." as the only listed component.
Then the religion based rituals have a component cost, which can be either a certain quantity of incense worth amount "listed cost", or the magic pixie dust worth the same amount.
So you pick the quantity of incense.
Then you make that quantity of incense, via Duplicate ritual.
You have to have the Arcana check result of 31 to do most religion based rituals.
When the Duplicate ritual expires, you no longer have the stuff the duplicate ritual made. You have something else.

**

There is an easy enough nerf of this.
DM can say there are no rituals of Duplicate book available.
DM then allows rituals of Duplicate scrolls instead.
They can be had only with the level 6 treasure slots, from levels 2 3 4 and 5.
Then you have to sit on them for however long, until you use them.
This is a very obvious weakening of any character that tries this, until they actually use it.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

Another trick I haven't seen here is the second wind abusing dwarf warden trick.  MC druid to pick up Vital Form for another SW, Dwarven Recovery for +5 to saves after SW, and Stoneheart Warrior to make SW a free action.  I'm probably missing a ton of stuff but thought that someone could add this to the list with a proper write up.
DS: problem is that Blessed Weapon is no longer salvable, and Solar Enemy is now only a few rounds.  It's an interesting combination, to be sure, but I'd be more interested in a way that could do it more reliably - say, Headsman's Chop, Throw-and-stab, and some way to knock people prone with the thrown attack (possibly a lightning spear, park of Storm and Polearm Momentum, though that's starting to get awfully feat-heavy, and requires dual-wielding weapons of different types)



Dual-Wielding Weapons of different type is not that bad if you use weapon master (dragon 382). You can also use staggering strike to add a cheap push effect to your throw, so a lightning spear and mark of storm isn't required.
to the power list, add Flattening Charge, level 3 out of the warlord list. Knocks prone on a hit. If you are bravura and hit, it doesn't use up the power.
hey - golem, you haven't actually said anything about *how* to perform this mghty feat - and ritual components totally have a listed cost.



Specific example:
Religion (check) based rituals use "... incense ..." as the only listed component.
Then the religion based rituals have a component cost, which can be either a certain quantity of incense worth amount "listed cost", or the magic pixie dust worth the same amount.
So you pick the quantity of incense.
Then you make that quantity of incense, via Duplicate ritual.
You have to have the Arcana check result of 31 to do most religion based rituals.
When the Duplicate ritual expires, you no longer have the stuff the duplicate ritual made. You have something else.



The ritual makes mundane items not magical ones. From the compendium, "a copy of a magic item is nonmagical." From the games I have played in ritual components are magic (items) components. Not sure about the rules on it though.
"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)

I just learned myself: zones and zone-like effects created by players do impede forced movement.  I don't really get it, but the FAQ says so.


Eh, the FAQ is just fine for clarifying existing rules, but I don't buy it when it makes rules up that contradict everything published with no basis for doing so.  I haven't been able to find even a hint that this is in the rulebooks somewhere, and "Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." is a pretty absolute, unambiguous rule.

Put it in the errata docs and we'll talk, WotC.
Few people can see genius in someone who has offended them. -- Robertson Davies

Zones and zone-like effects do not impede forced movement. Only hindering terrain does grant a save against forced teleportation. Zones (even damaging ones) are not hindering terrain, unless the power that creates the zone clearly states that the zone has to be considered hindering terrain.

Lava is hindering terrain. A wall of fire is not.


Several people (including myself) asked this kind of questions to CS and always got the same answer. By the way looking at the PHB FAQ nr.27 it's pretty clear that you can send somebody into a wall of fire with forced movement and even more than once.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)

I just learned myself: zones and zone-like effects created by players do impede forced movement.

Eh, the FAQ is just fine for clarifying existing rules, but I don't buy it when it makes rules up that contradict everything published with no basis for doing so.  I haven't been able to find even a hint that this is in the rulebooks somewhere, and "Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." is a pretty absolute, unambiguous rule.

The issue here is not generic zones, it's wall of fire.  Wall of fire says that entering a square costs two extra squares of movement.  It does not say "difficult terrain", it does not say "hindering terrain".

So the FAQ answer just puts together the rules that apply.  If you have a 7 Wisdom modifier and thunderwave someone along the edge of a wall of fire, you can push them in (3 squares), push the out (1 square) and push them in again (3 squares).  And that's about it, cause you're out of your push.  Wall of Fire doesn't say it's hindering terrain, so it's not, and they don't get any saves.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)

I just learned myself: zones and zone-like effects created by players do impede forced movement.

Eh, the FAQ is just fine for clarifying existing rules, but I don't buy it when it makes rules up that contradict everything published with no basis for doing so.  I haven't been able to find even a hint that this is in the rulebooks somewhere, and "Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." is a pretty absolute, unambiguous rule.

The issue here is not generic zones, it's wall of fire.  Wall of fire says that entering a square costs two extra squares of movement.  It does not say "difficult terrain", it does not say "hindering terrain".

So the FAQ answer just puts together the rules that apply.  If you have a 7 Wisdom modifier and thunderwave someone along the edge of a wall of fire, you can push them in (3 squares), push the out (1 square) and push them in again (3 squares).  And that's about it, cause you're out of your push.  Wall of Fire doesn't say it's hindering terrain, so it's not, and they don't get any saves.

Alright, but that's entirely different, then.  The rule being talked about is "Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain," and then a poster responds essentially saying that the FAQ says that player created zones of difficult/hindering terrain (remember that difficult terrain is the topic of context) impede forced movement.  The poster was being misleading.

If zones like Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier aren't difficult or hindering (which is the real clarification the FAQ made) then none of the restrictions for difficult or hindering terrain apply to them.  You can shift in a Wall of Fire, for example (assuming you're capable of shifting additional squares).

As an aside, where are the rule definitions for hindering and impeding terrain?  I can only find difficult in the PHB.

Few people can see genius in someone who has offended them. -- Robertson Davies
This is a brilliant idea. Sticky please!
The poster was being misleading.

But probably not deliberately.
You can shift in a Wall of Fire, for example (assuming you're capable of shifting additional squares).

Actually, as far as I know that's the normal case: difficult terrain only stops shifting because your standard "spend a move action to shift" only shifts one, and so you can't afford to enter the square.  PHB1, p.284 "On the other hand, if a power lets you shift 2, you can shift into a square of difficult terrain"
As an aside, where are the rule definitions for hindering and impeding terrain?  I can only find difficult in the PHB.

Hindering is in the DMG, p. 61.  Terrain that damages or impedes movement... which is why one might reasonably assume that a Wall of Fire constituted hindering terrain

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

added a glossary
and another catch-22 expansion a la Imperii

Catch 22
Catch 22
The Trick
Arcane at-will attack, preferably one that can be used as a melee basic attack
Aegis of Assault or some mark which is enforced with an attack or lots of damage near that of your arcane attack which can be administered/sustained outside of your arcane attack
White lotus Riposte + White lotus master riposte

Expansions
Power of Arcane semi-controversially makes associated powers arcane



Cheese ratings
Many DM's won't like the catch 22

Other important notes
Need to be within 2 to mark with aegis.  Monster dies and you must be near your next target to ensure it. 







I'm a bit confused about the suggested arcane at-will for use with this tactic.  It suggests "one that can be used as a melee basic attack" - Eldritch Strike for example.  Wouldn't it be better to use an arcane at-will that can be used at range?  If you hit an enemy with Eldritch Strike and you slide it away 1 square (or it shifts away from you on its turn), it could then hit you with a ranged attack and you wouldn't be able to use WLMR to hit it back since it's outside the range of Eldritch Strike.  Is that correct?

Another option that I would have thought was better was something like Swordburst, since CS seems to have ruled that it would still hit enemies in the burst range other than the enemy attacking you.  So that would at least hit more targets than Eldritch Strike.

Further, you don't need an at-will that can be used as a MBA if all you're looking to do is to compensate for having a low Strength value . . . . what am I missing?
Based on the most recent errata, the Feycharger module should be removed, and given a decent burial.
I'm a bit confused about the suggested arcane at-will for use with this tactic.  It suggests "one that can be used as a melee basic attack" - Eldritch Strike for example.  Wouldn't it be better to use an arcane at-will that can be used at range?

It's nice to be able to focus your feats and all on a single power... if your arcane at-will power for White Lotus is also your Melee Basic Attack for your Assault Swordmage's mark, then it's easier to add expansions (Arcane Admixture: cold.  Hi frostcheese...)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I'm a bit confused about the suggested arcane at-will for use with this tactic.  It suggests "one that can be used as a melee basic attack" - Eldritch Strike for example.  Wouldn't it be better to use an arcane at-will that can be used at range?

It's nice to be able to focus your feats and all on a single power... if your arcane at-will power for White Lotus is also your Melee Basic Attack for your Assault Swordmage's mark, then it's easier to add expansions (Arcane Admixture: cold.  Hi frostcheese...)



I agree on that strategy in general, but it seemed to me a high price to pay for that kind of synergy in the situation where the enemy can avoid part of the catch-22 from your WLMR feat just by moving out of melee range before attacking.
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