Harmonious Thunder (monk daily 1) generates a pseudo-infinite damage loop.

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Harmonious Thunder, Monk Daily Attack 1
Daily ✦ Implement, Psionic, Thunder
Standard Action, Melee touch
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Dexterity modifier thunder damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: When one of the targets takes damage, the other takes thunder damage equal to your Strength modifier. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until one of the targets drops to 0 hit points.

A pox on you, Wizards of the Coast. Were we not past the point of infinite damage loops such as this? For that matter, the Kiss of Death level 29 rogue daily attack power from page 71 of Martial Power 2 still generates a limitless number of attacks in a single round, which can be exploited even further with a source of damage on a miss. Is it indeed so difficult to attach a "Once per round..." provision onto powers such as these?

At this point, I think they'd probably be better off just making a general rule that an effect can only trigger once per round per target. It would sure cut down on update document length.
 
It's not an infinite damage power, it's simply an auto-kill power.  Nothing more than an "I win" button.  What's wrong with that?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
What is this I don't even.

Seriously, though.  Wizards: I have, for a long time, held that we are better at this stuff than you.  It was not until today that I thought it was because you were all* freaking dumb.

*This excludes Rodney Thompson and Gary Sarli, who are scholars and gentlemen.
On the CO IRC, generally as TorpedoFish.
Vain? Me? NEVER.
57223408 wrote:
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
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Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
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My sci-fi writing.
It's not an infinite damage power, it's simply an auto-kill power.  Nothing more than an "I win" button.  What's wrong with that?


Agreed. Enemies should just be using their perfect defense charms against 'soul ripper' effects, anyway. It's not even like it's a surprise attack or something really weird.

Oh wait.... wrong game. >_>

I find Harmonious Thunder hilarious for not only being horrendously worded, but being a veritable onion of failure, each layer presenting a new area of jacking up.

At a basic level, a 2x ~1.5[W] power is alright for a daily, not amazing, but alright. A rider could be fairly powerful and make it a nice power, especially if there's any support for the storm theme. But that effect... first we have the obvious failure, the one that's so absurd it looks like a trap... the damage it deals to a target triggers itself as worded. That literally makes it the equivalent of some Exalted power attack or monk-as-Soifon-from-Bleach for the animu one hit murder. And since we can somewhat safely agree that 5 Point Exploding Heart Technique isn't an early heroic power, that's not right.

Then the first layer of interpretation for safety. This is a guaranteed, fat damage boost. Each attack from a Twin Strike or even the triggering of something like Flurry of Blows helps to stack on fat swaths of damage. No save, no restriction, just a guaranteed "jack two monsters a day". If this were a higher level daily power, it might be almost fair... but to start the game with it? Damn.

If we assume there's a once-per-round restriction, though, does this power remain useful? It basically ends up being slightly better than ongoing (Strength) that's split between two dudes. If you can slap two elites, it's pretty slick, but on standard monsters, maybe not so much. I guess it'd have to be one per round per target or something. That's even more wording, though...

I'll be curious to see what ends up happening with this power, since it doesn't feel like it'll end up with a solid power level in the end... good times.
Harmonious Thunder, Monk Daily Attack 1
Daily ✦ Implement, Psionic, Thunder
Standard Action, Melee touch
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Dexterity modifier thunder damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: When one of the targets takes damage, the other takes thunder damage equal to your Strength modifier. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until one of the targets drops to 0 hit points.

A pox on you, Wizards of the Coast. Were we not past the point of infinite damage loops such as this? For that matter, the Kiss of Death level 29 rogue daily attack power from page 71 of Martial Power 2 still generates a limitless number of attacks in a single round, which can be exploited even further with a source of damage on a miss. Is it indeed so difficult to attach a "Once per round..." provision onto powers such as these?



I think my favorite part is that you don't even have to HIT for this to auto-kill something.
This is why the developers "should" develop a power builder utility..

.. A few clicks of the mouse..
Add a Name.. flavor text.. and bam.. new power. Consitent wording with each and EVERY power.

Power Name =
Flavor Text =
Class =
Type =
... you get the idea.

You could greatly reduce the amount of descriptive text by clearly specifying default rules for ALL powers...

Example.. 

 - Powers deal damage of a type equal to the keyword(s) they use.
 - Powers deal damage to a individual target(s) ONLY once per round.
 - Powers with Effect & Attack sections are resolved in the order that those sections appear in the power.
 - Powers can NEVER trigger themselves.
 - Indented Sections are dependent on the section above. (so Effect: indented after Hit: means that the effect ONLY triggers if you hit.) 

The Effect in the power above would be more clearly expressed as: If the target is hit, the other target will take your Strength modifer in damage at the start of its turn.


MC Monk, Powerswap. Should be a great LFR character. /roll. Least they already toned down Salves of Power, imagine this+the old Salve.
This is why the developers "should" develop a power builder utility.

Meh, not really. The problem how I see it tends to be more an issue of discipline. This is basically a problem seen in most every CCG ever published, where someone writes rules text they assume is easily understood, but fail to catch a point of vague or incorrect parsing. This is why many Magic cards can get some verbose wording, to make sure the effect described is unambiguous and (hopefully) in the desired power band. The issue with trying to standardize the form for writing a power like this is that there is no single standard to apply here. If instead of damage, the effect's applied result for damaging one target was dazing the other or giving vulnerability, the once per round restriction wouldn't really be necessary. With damage as the trigger and effect, though, there needs to be some form of restriction, either, "When one of the targets takes damage from a different source," "Once per round, when one of the targets takes damage," or "When one of the targets takes damage from one of your other attacks," would each accomplish the same main goal in different ways.

I'd expect a day zero errata on this, and might well consider abusing it in LFR until errata comes just for **** and giggles.
(man giggle)

I was wondering what: "Finger Of Death"  would be called in this edition.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

(man giggle)

I was wondering what: "Finger Of Death"  would be called in this edition.



You know, I like pretty much everything you say. Your avatar is super-creepy though.
Harmonious Thunder, Monk Daily Attack 1
Daily ✦ Implement, Psionic, Thunder
Standard Action, Melee touch
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Dexterity modifier thunder damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: When one of the targets takes damage, the other takes thunder damage equal to your Strength modifier. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until one of the targets drops to 0 hit points.

A pox on you, Wizards of the Coast. Were we not past the point of infinite damage loops such as this? For that matter, the Kiss of Death level 29 rogue daily attack power from page 71 of Martial Power 2 still generates a limitless number of attacks in a single round, which can be exploited even further with a source of damage on a miss. Is it indeed so difficult to attach a "Once per round..." provision onto powers such as these?



When I first saw this, I was completely blown off by the adsurdity of the power.

I knew I had to get away a few days to clear my head and collect my thoughts.

My world was completely destroyed.

Then after I finally came to my senses, I had to come back and comment on this

It is a game breaking power

Imagine this scenario:
1. Party sees a BBEG
2. Monk takes the ranger's pet chicken, uses this power on the BBEG
3. Monk starts choking the chicken in front of BBEG
4. Party screams in horror Surprised, then joins in to choke the chicken, paladin lays on hands on chicken
5. BBEG takes obscene damage

Not a pretty sight, but definitely worth choking the chicken
Hmm... you know, if you had a defender with thunder resist...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

ROFL.  After the last Errata I was pretty sure Wizards doesn't have a clue what they are doing.  Now I am certain.
After this power and Create a Target in MP2 I think that 1st level characters will be considered pretty dangerous.
BBEGs will try to kill them from a distance...

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

It's not an infinite damage power, it's simply an auto-kill power.  Nothing more than an "I win" button.  What's wrong with that?



What is the point of Infinite damage is it's not an auto-kill.   i was under the impression that they went hnd in hand.
It stops as soon as one of the 2 targets dies. So wouldn't you need 2 solos with the exact same hp, or an ally with thunder resistances?

Fun could be had with a Monk|Storm Sorceror.
Punch yourself in the face, kill the enemy.
YAAAAY~

Of course, any sane person wouldn't reflect reflected damage back at the original target...

Feels odd being the person to point out the obvious.

It's like trying to claim that a "repeat this attack 3 times" line in one of the powers duplicates itself.
Easiest fix in the world.  This effect cannot trigger itself.  Thus it is still a powerful daily because you can still wail away on one of them, but the infinite loop does not happen. 
At first, I didn't understand why this power is labeled as broken, or IMBA, or whatnot. I kept reading the power over and oever again, but I just don't see how it could be broken.

But then I read AA_Metatro's reply, and now I see it.

I have some thoughts though:

1) How could it be self triggering? When it says "when one of the target gets damaged", I assumed that if it gets hit after the power damage occurs. And that if the other target gets damaged with the Str mod, that's the end of the power effect. Isn't it supposed to be that way, or is it, unless noted otherwise, it's not?

2) "This effect lasts until ... one of the targets drops to 0 hit points." What if the other creature dies before the BBEG? Sure, the Paladin or Cleric can heal the monster, but of course, that's where this power becomes broken. But if they can't, then the power is over.

Am I not seeing/understanding something here?

At first, I didn't understand why this power is labeled as broken, or IMBA, or whatnot. I kept reading the power over and oever again, but I just don't see how it could be broken.

But then I read AA_Metatro's reply, and now I see it.

I have some thoughts though:

1) How could it be self triggering? When it says "when one of the target gets damaged", I assumed that if it gets hit after the power damage occurs. And that if the other target gets damaged with the Str mod, that's the end of the power effect. Isn't it supposed to be that way, or is it, unless noted otherwise, it's not?

2) "This effect lasts until ... one of the targets drops to 0 hit points." What if the other creature dies before the BBEG? Sure, the Paladin or Cleric can heal the monster, but of course, that's where this power becomes broken. But if they can't, then the power is over.

Am I not seeing/understanding something here?

that is why it was called a psedo damage loop.  It does end, but not before one the creatures dead.

If you have a BBEG and another creature.  You would have killed the one creature and probably did a fair amount of damage to the BBEG




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