Elementals in Multiplayer

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So, I've just acquired a metric buttload of Lorwyn cards. One of the things staring at me from the pile saying "Build a deck around me!" is a playset of Incandescent Soulstoke.

Now I have this wacked out idea to play the Soulstokes and Oath of Ghouls to make things recursive. Is this insane? Does it ever stand a chance of working?

The main question in my mind at the moment is whether I stick solely with a red/black deck and go for throats from the get-go, or do I splash the rainbow and throw in Mulldrifter, Meadowboon and all the others? Thoughts?
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
Card draw would ensure that you have more creatures in your graveyard than any other opponent. This isn't as important in multiplayer at first since you can target any opponent (This is kind of like the old joke about the two hikers in the forest who come across a bear charging them, the first guy starts to run, and the second guy says, "What are you doing, you can't out run a bear". The first guy replies, "I know, I only have to outrun you".). But, as the game nears a close you want your deck to still function as well.

I personally loathe playing B/R because of their inability to handle Artifacts and Enchantments easily. Going Rainbow would give you access to Horde of Notions too. If you weren't going rainbow, then a dwarf might help Balthor the Defiled.

If you don't have a Confusion in the Ranks deck yet, RW combos well with the Evoke Elementals. Evoke specifically says "it's controller" sacrifices it, so you can stack the sacrifice trigger below the exchange trigger (too bad this doesn't work with Incandescent Soulstoke). Astral Slide is the other useful part. If you don't have Confusion in the Ranks, you can target your own Elementals that are going have to be sacrificed, if you do have out Confusion, you get double steals.

Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group

I've twice tried to make an elemental deck jive, and both times it just wasn't very good. I did figure a few things out along the way though.

1. Wilderness elemental is a beating if you play against people that use numerous non-basic lands.

2. Smokebraider is absolutely essential.

3. Thunderblust is much better than it looks.

You might consider running oversold cemetery instead of oath of ghouls; it won't bite you in the behind like the oath can.
The cool thing about elementals is that their power is usually a lot higher than their toughness. Since you're going be throwing hasted beaters at people via the Soulstroke, you'll have lots of open mana to use on your turns. I think the best thing you could do with that mana is play pump spells on your elementals. That is, your deck should have cards like:
Loxodon Warhammer
Basilisk Collar
Rancor
Spirit Loop
Behemoth Sledge
You get the idea. Give your creatures some form of continuous lifelink and odds are no one will be able to race you. It also lets you play a card like Phyrexian Reclamation. If you're ahead on life you can afford to ressurect many creatures a turn and possibly even hard cast one. The other cards you named limit you to 1 revival per turn after all.

In terms of general cards, maybe use Browbeat and Syphon Mind for card draw. Elemental Harbinger is basically a must too. Demonic Tutor and likes are always good since they can tutor your main combo creature if you need one. I like Phyrexian Reclamation since it can revive Soulstroke if he dies as he's cast. Cemetery requires you to have 3 other creatures in the yard before you can revive him after all.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.
Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.




Omg, that's just sick. Seriously, I might give up if that ever came up in a multi-player game.
I am mostly a casual/multiplayer type of guy. You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
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Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.




Omg, that's just sick. Seriously, I might give up if that ever came up in a multi-player game.


Heck, the Scythe looks like it would bring Ashling back herself too.
Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.




Omg, that's just sick. Seriously, I might give up if that ever came up in a multi-player game.


Heck, the Scythe looks like it would bring Ashling back herself too.



Indeed it would, so repeating the fun would be easy to do!
Some suggestions:
Rage Forger
Lightning Crafter
Ashenmoor Liege
Shriekmaw
Ashling the Extinguisher

And I really like the Scythe+Pilgrim combo, you should definitely use that.
Awesome replies, guys.
My metric buttload of Lorwyn included a playset of Ashling the Pilgrim, and I've got a Scythe of the Wretched. Looks like that needs to happen!
Plus, I've got a playset of Ashenmoor Liege waiting for a deck.

Question now is...
a) If I go solely BR, how do we deal with artifacts and enchantments? Splash for Elemental-based removal?
b) If we splash the rainbow instead, a playset of both Incandescent Soulstoke and Ashenmoor Liege is probably overdoing things. What would you do?
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
4 Vivid Crag and 4 Vivid Marsh already gives you enough room for 4 Naturalize/Krosan Grip. Combined with Ravnica Karoos of the appropriate color, it is pretty easy to splash a third (enemy) color in a color heavy deck. You can already use Ingot Chewer to destroy artifacts. Oblivion Stone or Nevinyrral's Disk are useful too.
For artifacts, why not use Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree?


Red really doesn't have much to deal with enchantments. That I will admit, so plan on murdering everything before they become a problem.
Red also has enough direct damage to play a political game. "If you destroy that Collective Restraint for me, I will burn that creature you have trouble with". It helps a lot:P

Since the Soulstoke doesn't care about mana costs, I think it would be rather painless to have a few Wispmares to throw at enchantments. And depending on your financial situation, a going for a very light splash of white shouldn't hurt too bad. 

Besides Wispmare, in white there's always Reveillark to look at...

Mmm... Lark... that may give me a half decent excuse to get some. It's one of the few things I'm missing.
Also, is Primal Beyond even worth considering?
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
So the main problem I have now with this deck is that I like to have some level of recursion in my multiplayer decks. I'm not one for getting my combo out, having the board swept, and not having any way of recovering and setting the combo back up again.
Obviously, Oath of Ghouls / Oversold Cemetery achieves this for the creatures (which are going to be 90% of the deck, really). But if someone piffs the Oath/Cemetery, where do we go from there? There are no Elemental cards that return an Oath or Cemetery back to your hand from your graveyard (man, if only Lark could do that!).
Which means I'm probably looking at a small splash of green. Maybe for a couple of Nature's Spirals, maybe a couple of Reaps if I have them (having at least two black permanents out there is a safe bet, especially as there are a lot of Vampire decks in my playgroup right now).

But definitely the following...
4 x Incandescent Soulstoke
4 x Ashenmoor Liege
4 x Shriekmaw
2 x Ashling the Pilgrim
2 x Ingot Chewer
2 x Wispmare
1 x Meadowboon
1 x Scythe of the Wretched
1 x Ashen Firebeast (now an Elemental Beast, and also fun holding a Scythe!)

That's about half the deck. I've got the Vivid lands available, so they're likely to go in. Possibly also Rupture Spires.
There are plenty of other candidates for the Elemental side of this deck (Ball Lightning, and plenty of other awesome older cards that still count as Elementals). I just need to decide on the recursion strategy, really.
And whether I need to buy Larks and Primal Beyonds to make this deck better.
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
I used to run a 5 color elemental deck. The toolbox abilities were awesome and so were the combo possibilities. The sheer nuttiness of being able to run multiple City of Brass kind of manabase is astounding and makes sure you hit any color you need. Just pray your group doesn't have lots of nonbasic hate.

This was one version of a manabase

4 Reflecting Pool
4 Primal Beyond
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Vesuva 

Also Lark is great in elemental decks since most are usually around 2 power.
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.
Okay, first crack at a decklist. Don't know if I'm necessarily happy with the balance between weenies and fatties (probably need a bit more facesmashery, to be honest), but we'll see how it goes. First run tomorrow night.



As mentioned, might need to swap some functional/weenie stuff out for more beef.
Might also need to swap another Harbinger out for a second Beseech the Queen - Harbingers don't fetch Oath of Ghouls, more's the pity.
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
Two runs the other night.
1. Six-player FFA. Hung in there, but got squished along with the other four losers by a green stompy deck in full flight (it peeled off Turn 3 Multani, Turn 4 Verdant, Turn 5 Vigor, Turn 6 Nemata, Turn 7 Primalcrux... yeesh!)

2. Three-on-three duel. This deck did the following...
Turn 3: Incandescent Soulstoke
Turn 4: Ashenmoor Liege. Swing with the Soulstoke for 3.
Turn 5: Drop Ashen Firebeast with the Soulstoke. Deal 1 damage with the Firebeast to clear the way, and then swing for 8.
Turn 6: Drop Thorn Elemental with the Soulstoke. Swing for 8.
Turn 7: Drop Flamekin Harbinger with the Soulstoke. Fetch Hateflayer, swing for 3.
Turn 8: Drop Hateflayer with the Soulstoke. Swing, untap for 7 to the face. Game over.
For those not counting, that's 29 damage in five turns. I like!
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
on the subject of Ashling, the Pilgrim shenanigans... I prefer Vigor Firespout your opponent and give your creatures 3 +1/+1 counters each turn. Splashing for Vigor is effortless, Smokebraider  is required of course and then you just Primal Beyonds or whatever.
Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.



Does that actually work?  I was under the impression that since creatures are destroyed at the same time, it means that the creatures isn't in play to trigger.  I thought the effect would trigger only when the creatures hit the graveyard, but the equipped creature woudl still have to be in play when that happened to trigger the effect.  If someone knows, please clarify because we run into this all the time with other cards.

I read the text of when it triggers since text can vary from "when it leaves play", "when it goes to the graveyard", etc.
on the subject of Ashling, the Pilgrim shenanigans... I prefer Vigor Firespout your opponent and give your creatures 3 +1/+1 counters each turn. Splashing for Vigor is effortless, Smokebraider  is required of course and then you just Primal Beyonds or whatever.

Won't that kill your Vigor on the second pass?  Ashling the Pilgrim has three counters after the first cycle, then you have to charge her up 3 more times, so she'll deal 6 damage.  (Of course, everything else you have is +9/+9, so maybe it doesn't matter.)
Ashling the Pilgrim

Give her lifelink!
Why not throw Scythe of the Wretched on her as well. It should trigger for everything that's hitting the graveyard at the same time as her.

Does that actually work?  I was under the impression that since creatures are destroyed at the same time, it means that the creatures isn't in play to trigger.  I thought the effect would trigger only when the creatures hit the graveyard, but the equipped creature woudl still have to be in play when that happened to trigger the effect.  If someone knows, please clarify because we run into this all the time with other cards.

I read the text of when it triggers since text can vary from "when it leaves play", "when it goes to the graveyard", etc.

That works.  When things enter or leave the battlefield simultaneously (including going to the graveyard), they all get to see each other do it, and trigger accordingly.  In particular, that means a creature with Scythe of the Wretched that trades in combat will still give you control of the creature it traded with.  Ashling the Pilgrim is a similar case.  Wrath of God can also deal lots of damage via Hissing Iguanar, because the Iguanar sees all of the other creatures go to the graveyard at the same time.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
So then to take it to a different specific deck example that causes the stir in my group, one guy has Necroskitter deck.  If someone sweeps with a Damnation (probably me Surprised ), the creatures with -1/-1 counters would come back from the graveyard under his control even though the Necroskitter was also destroyed at the same time?  I always assumed that destruction and being placed in the graveyard were two different actions that generated different triggered abilities.  Because, if they see each other and trigger the Necroskitter's ability when the Damnation hits, then destruction and hitting the graveyard are one and the same.
It'll kill your vigor if you activate ashling's ability 6 times in the same turn, yeah, but I don't really see that happening (12 mana?). And you're right, it shouldn't really matter at that point because your creatures are all majorly boosted and most of your opponent's creatures should be dead.
Or you can just have two Vigors~ 
So then to take it to a different specific deck example that causes the stir in my group, one guy has Necroskitter deck.  If someone sweeps with a Damnation (probably me Surprised ), the creatures with -1/-1 counters would come back from the graveyard under his control even though the Necroskitter was also destroyed at the same time?  I always assumed that destruction and being placed in the graveyard were two different actions that generated different triggered abilities.  Because, if they see each other and trigger the Necroskitter's ability when the Damnation hits, then destruction and hitting the graveyard are one and the same.

Yes, the Necroskitter goes to the graveyard at the same time as the other creatures.  I'm not sure about this distinction you're trying to make about being destroyed - it does happen at the same time (being destroyed is the action that puts the creatures in the graveyard in this case), but even if it didn't, neither Necroskitter nor the other creatures would care until they went to the graveyard.
It'll kill your vigor if you activate ashling's ability 6 times in the same turn, yeah, but I don't really see that happening (12 mana?).

A few things.  First, it's not possible to blow Ashling the Pilgrim up twice in the same turn.  She only triggers on the third activation.  However, with Vigor out, after you blow Ashling up once, she gets (at least) three counters for the damage she tries to deal to herself.  Now, the next time you blow her up (on a different turn), she'll have those three counters, plus three counters for having been activated again.  That's six damage to Vigor, unavoidable (unless, as you say, you have two Vigors).
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
So then to take it to a different specific deck example that causes the stir in my group, one guy has Necroskitter deck.  If someone sweeps with a Damnation (probably me  ), the creatures with -1/-1 counters would come back from the graveyard under his control even though the Necroskitter was also destroyed at the same time?  I always assumed that destruction and being placed in the graveyard were two different actions that generated different triggered abilities.  Because, if they see each other and trigger the Necroskitter's ability when the Damnation hits, then destruction and hitting the graveyard are one and the same.



This rule explains it all
Show

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.





The following proves that if a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it is put into a graveyard, the necroskitter sees it as a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it eventhough at the moment the creature hits the graveyard (and the ability triggers) it doesn't have the -1/-1 counter anymore (since cards can't have -1/-1 counters on them in the graveyard). Showing this may be redundant (because if this wasn't true, Necroskitter wouldn't do anything at all). 
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Last Known Information
Information about an object that’s no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player that’s no longer in the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone or that player’s last existence in the game. See rules 112.7a, 608.2b, 608.2g, and 800.4f.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.


If you want to read more rules: www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x...
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
So then to take it to a different specific deck example that causes the stir in my group, one guy has Necroskitter deck.  If someone sweeps with a Damnation (probably me  ), the creatures with -1/-1 counters would come back from the graveyard under his control even though the Necroskitter was also destroyed at the same time?  I always assumed that destruction and being placed in the graveyard were two different actions that generated different triggered abilities.  Because, if they see each other and trigger the Necroskitter's ability when the Damnation hits, then destruction and hitting the graveyard are one and the same.



This rule explains it all
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603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.





The following proves that if a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it is put into a graveyard, the necroskitter sees it as a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it eventhough at the moment the creature hits the graveyard (and the ability triggers) it doesn't have the -1/-1 counter anymore (since cards can't have -1/-1 counters on them in the graveyard). Showing this may be redundant (because if this wasn't true, Necroskitter wouldn't do anything at all). 
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Last Known Information
Information about an object that’s no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player that’s no longer in the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone or that player’s last existence in the game. See rules 112.7a, 608.2b, 608.2g, and 800.4f.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.


If you want to read more rules: www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x...



It does indeed explain it all.  Thanks for digging that up.  Awesome.
It does indeed explain it all.  Thanks for digging that up.  Awesome.



No problem, I myself wanted to check it again because I am a bit of a rules lawyer.

Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
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