Using stealth in combat

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I did a search and could not find a conclusive thread on "stealth in combat". I have some questions:

1) During combat, if a character has concealment, (not total) can he/she hide (using stealth) against a creature that is in line of sight?

2) Does using stealth in combat require a standard, move or minor action?

3) If you use bluff to create diversion to hide...and succeed (in both checks), will you automatically gain combat advantage against your target?

4) If a warlock moves 3 spaces and gains concealment, can they attempt to hide without using bluff? Is that a free action or something else?

Thanks
 

1) During combat, if a character has concealment, (not total) can he/she hide (using stealth) against a creature that is in line of sight? 


No Superior Cover or Total Concealment is required normally apart from the new Cunning Rogue Built, unless you're Out of sight. To remain Hidden though, you only need Cover or Concealment.

2) Does using stealth in combat require a standard, move or minor action?


It is normally achieved at the end of a Move Action if you have Superior Cover or Total Concealment or you're out of sight, unless a Power let you do so by other means.

3) If you use bluff to create diversion to hide...and succeed (in both checks), will you automatically gain combat advantage against your target? 


Yes, until the end of your next turn.

4) If a warlock moves 3 spaces and gains concealment, can they attempt to hide without using bluff? Is that a free action or something else?


No, he still needs better Concealment, unless he was already Hidden by other means.

Thanks


You're welcome !

Yan
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1. unless you have a power that says otherwise, you need Total Conceal/cover to hide

4. the errata, and update in PHB2 make this not possible (unless you have a power that says otherwise).
Amazed at how obtuse people can be since 1972.
"4) If a warlock moves 3 spaces and gains concealment, can they attempt to hide without using bluff? Is that a free action or something else?"

The key to remember is the difference between total concealment/cover and partial concealment/cover. You need total concealment/cover to start using stealth. You only need partial concealment/cover to maintain stealth. Shadow Walk grants partial concealment, not total, so you could not use it to begin using stealth. However, you can use it to maintain stealth.

So, have the warlock get behind a wall or something so that he has total cover from all enemies. Start using stealth, move 3sq+ round while in front of enemies and you can maintain stealth, even though right in front of the enemy. Illogical, but legal.




1) During combat, if a character has concealment, (not total) can he/she hide (using stealth) against a creature that is in line of sight? 


No Superior Cover or Total Concealment is required normally apart from the new Cunning Rogue Built, unless you're Out of sight. To remain Hidden though, you only need Cover or Concealment.



Can you elaborate on the "Cunning Rogue Build"? What feats/powers are you referring to?

Also are there any feats/powers that can negate the -5 penalty to stealth if you move more than 3 spaces? What if you teleport 5 spaces...does that still give you a stealth penalty?

Thanks again! 

1) During combat, if a character has concealment, (not total) can he/she hide (using stealth) against a creature that is in line of sight? 


No Superior Cover or Total Concealment is required normally apart from the new Cunning Rogue Built, unless you're Out of sight. To remain Hidden though, you only need Cover or Concealment.



Can you elaborate on the "Cunning Rogue Build"? What feats/powers are you referring to?

Also are there any feats/powers that can negate the -5 penalty to stealth if you move more than 3 spaces? What if you teleport 5 spaces...does that still give you a stealth penalty?

Thanks again! 



Not sure about the 'Cunning Rogue', but as to your second question:

Darting Shadow Assassin Utility 6 -AND- Shadow Sride Rogue Utility 10 both allow you to move your speed and remain hidden for the entire move as long as you're hidden at the end. Darting Shadow requires no new check, Shadow Stride uses a new check with no penalty.

Fleeting Ghost Rogue Utility 2 lets you move your full speed with no penalty, but if you lose concealment/cover at any point in the move you'll be visible.

Those are the only ones I know of off hand, there may be more.

Paragon level feat
Secret Stride:
Benefit: You don’t take the –5 penalty to Stealth checks for moving more than 2 squares.
"4) If a warlock moves 3 spaces and gains concealment, can they attempt to hide without using bluff? Is that a free action or something else?"

The key to remember is the difference between total concealment/cover and partial concealment/cover. You need total concealment/cover to start using stealth. You only need partial concealment/cover to maintain stealth. Shadow Walk grants partial concealment, not total, so you could not use it to begin using stealth. However, you can use it to maintain stealth.

So, have the warlock get behind a wall or something so that he has total cover from all enemies. Start using stealth, move 3sq+ round while in front of enemies and you can maintain stealth, even though right in front of the enemy. Illogical, but legal.


there is no such thing as "partial" cover/conceal. you either have cover/conceal, or you dont.

There is cover or concealment wich is required to maintain hidden. and Superior cover, total concealment and either of these are required to become hidden.

Amazed at how obtuse people can be since 1972.

there is no such thing as "partial" cover/conceal. you either have cover/conceal, or you dont.



The difference is semantic. He's simply using the word partial to help differentiate between cover/concealment and superior cover/total concealment. His description was correct otherwise. If it helps a DM and his players understand the new stealth rules, I'm all for piling on the adjectives. =)

The warlock moving around the open room is taking a -5 to his stealth for the movement,  if he is able to maintain his stealth with that penalty (stealth is not a class skill for warlocks) then what's the problem?  He has a magical shround on him AND the skill to remain unseen. 
The warlock moving around the open room is taking a -5 to his stealth for the movement,  if he is able to maintain his stealth with that penalty (stealth is not a class skill for warlocks) then what's the problem?  He has a magical shround on him AND the skill to remain unseen. 



There's no problem with the warlock using the concealment from Shadow Walk to maintain stealth. The confusion comes in when players misread the rules for stealth and try to BECOME hidden using the concealment granted by Shadow Walk. The key thing to remember is that you can't become hidden unless you have total concealment or superior cover. Once you're hidden, you can remain hidden with only concealment or cover.
Can you elaborate on the "Cunning Rogue Build"?
Thanks again! 



 The new Cunning Sneak Rogue Tactic from Martial Power 2...  If you end a move action at least three squares from where you started, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden as long as you have any sort of concealment or cover (except cover provided by allies). It also negates the stealth penalty for moving and halves the penalty for running. Makes it alot easier for ranged rogues to get CA.


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I was replying to the middle first page post about the warlock walking in front of enemies and remaining stealthed.
The Cunning Sneak rogue can be very abusive when there is plenty of cover, he only needs to move 3 squares and doing so without penalty, since the -5 for moving more than 2 square is removed !
The Cunning Sneak rogue can be very abusive when there is plenty of cover, he only needs to move 3 squares and doing so without penalty, since the -5 for moving more than 2 square is removed !



multiclass into warlock, 2 feats, and you get perma concealment when you move. and take eyebite...once per encounter, you invis from that solo target.



Amazed at how obtuse people can be since 1972.
Klaumbaz you are, of course, correct in that my terminology is wrong. I apologize for the confusion. I always just think of it as "partial cover/conceal" and "total cover/conceal", though those are not the official names for them.


While it's not very useful in combat, note that you can avoid the -5 penalty on stealth checks and still maintain concealment (and stealth) by taking 2 move actions. The "only move 2 squares" limitation applies per move action, not per turn. So, one could take two move actions, move 2 squares each time for a total of 4 and maintain concealment and stealth. This is obviously not that useful in combat, but it can be extremely handy outside of combat. By assuming the warlock moves 4 squares every imaginary round, the warlock can maintain stealth indefinitely without the -5 penalty.


Klaumbaz you are, of course, correct in that my terminology is wrong. I apologize for the confusion. I always just think of it as "partial cover/conceal" and "total cover/conceal", though those are not the official names for them.


While it's not very useful in combat, note that you can avoid the -5 penalty on stealth checks and still maintain concealment (and stealth) by taking 2 move actions. The "only move 2 squares" limitation applies per move action, not per turn. So, one could take two move actions, move 2 squares each time for a total of 4 and maintain concealment and stealth. This is obviously not that useful in combat, but it can be extremely handy outside of combat. By assuming the warlock moves 4 squares every imaginary round, the warlock can maintain stealth indefinitely without the -5 penalty.





Hmmmm. True. But the real question with the warlock is how useful is it? If he takes training in stealth he can probably be moderately sneaky, but DEX is not a primary or a secondary for any warlock build. Considering how strapped they are in the stat department its unlikely a warlock will have much DEX. If he does he'll be taking it at the expense of INT which is a secondary. In any case stealthing around in the open is fine but has limited uses in combat where generally speaking you want to be able to attack and once you do the stealth is blown. Can be pretty handy in an RP situation but figure at level 1 with stealth training a typical warlock will have say +7 skill bonus. He's unlikely to remain hidden with any appreciable number of onlookers present. Now perhaps that is better at higher levels where a lot of the 'mooks' aren't perceptive enough to see you at all, but you're never going to fool the big bad.
That is not dead which may eternal lie

With everyone carrying sun-rods, and the PHB making most lights "bright" anyway, it really screws up stealth classes. I mean 20 by 20 bright light, thats like the nightlights in a football game!


They need to errata the rules to bring back say 4by4 bright, and then say a 3 square "sneak maintenance" zone around that.


multiclass into warlock, 2 feats, and you get perma concealment when you move. and take eyebite...once per encounter, you invis from that solo target.


If you are talking about the Walker In Gloom feat, that is very expensive as you have to Paragon multiclass to take it.
Which means atleast 5 feats
You know this really hampers Sorcerers who use Stealth to keep from being blown off the battlematt. They better revise Deep Shroud so it grants total concealment because no one wants to play a class that can't benefit from the one skill it needs to survive combat. Often there is no total concealment or superior cover on a map just a flipped over table and some chairs providing ordinary cover or concealment because that's all a player ever needed in oder to make his checks .