March Rules update is out

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And they're a doozy, with a wide selection of fixes and nerfs.


PHB:
Righteous Brand: Nerfed! (+3 instead of +Strength.  Not a big deal at low level, was INSANE at very high level)
Orb Of Imposition:  Nerfed!  First save only!  Still mean, but no longer possible to truly Stunlock, period! 
Blood Pulse:  Nerfed!  Non-rolled damage, voluntary movement only!
Lasting Frost:  Clarified and lightly Nerfed!
Divine Miracle:  Nerfed!  It's 1/Encounter

Untyped Bonuses:  now only stack from different sources and "source" is clarified - the same name on the source means no stacking.  (This nerfs a WHOLE SHITLOAD of stuff.  In a good way!)
Damage types and keywords:  Finally officially clarified!  Changing damage type changes keywords.  Adding damage adds keywords.  Removing damage removes keywords.


AV:
Cunning:  Nerfed!  First save only!
Staff Of Ruin:  Requires that you use THE STAFF to make the attack!  No more off-handing Staves Of Ruin, plural.
Boots Of Eagerness:  Minor action, grants a Move, not Free grants a move (that could be converted to Minor).  Still awesome!
Salve Of Power:  Nerfed!  Restores Encounter powers, not Dailies.  No level limit!
Solitaires:  All Daily now, not Encounter!  And the AP-granting one now limits you to 1 AP/Encounter.
Potion Of Clarity:  Nerfed!  It's got a maximum level on the power it can effect, now, to stop you from stocking up on 50GP ones and rerolling your biggest powers with them.


PHB2:
EXPERTISE CHANGE!  All "Expertise" Feats now provide Feat Bonuses.  Most situational bonuses to hit from non-Expertise Feats are now untyped, not Feat!


AV2:
Ankhmon's Bracers:  Nerfed!  No more +1d10 damage and regain 1d10HP every time you hit with combat advantage, Mr Sorceror Man.
Diamond Cincture now costs Surges.  Remember how I said it was gonna get nerfed?  Yeah.  It did.


Divine Power:
Pacifist Healer made *stronger*, because now it requires a hit or miss and damage - ongoing/autodamage no longer included!


Dragon Mag:
Student Of Caiphon no longer gives extra crits to non-Warlocks going for Radiant Weapons.
Winged Horde:  Removes +INT from damage.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
The BIGGEST changes are Expertise and and the Damage Types/Keywords changes.

Untyped bonus stacking is a very close second, along with FINALLY fixing Orb/Cunning.

I think the nastiest save-penalty combo I can think of now is:

Wizard with Spell Focus and whatever that Invoker PP is, enough temporary penalties to ensure failing the first Save, and a Warlock Doomsayer standing next to him.  -4 permanently, with "roll twice and take the worse"
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Hide Armor Expertise also got majorly nerfed. Flat +2 AC bonus instead of getting to use Con Mod.
Hide Armor Expertise also got majorly nerfed. Flat +2 AC bonus instead of getting to use Con Mod.



I did not see that one!  Nice!
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Martial Power used to have errata for it. Is that undone now, or where can I find that errata now?
The BIGGEST changes are Expertise and and the Damage Types/Keywords changes.

Untyped bonus stacking is a very close second, along with FINALLY fixing Orb/Cunning.

I think the nastiest save-penalty combo I can think of now is:

Wizard with Spell Focus and whatever that Invoker PP is, enough temporary penalties to ensure failing the first Save, and a Warlock Doomsayer standing next to him.  -4 permanently, with "roll twice and take the worse"




Im very glad with the untyped bonus fix, as I believe it was seriously a big problem especially at the higher levels. And probably another reason is probably because I was one of the few advocates of them not stacking in a thread a few months ago in which many people disagreed with said notion.

All in all, the updates seem to be satisfactory, granted I'm a bit unsure about the change to solitaires from AV. 
Martial Power used to have errata for it. Is that undone now, or where can I find that errata now?



All the books are updated in the same document.  Download that PDF and either follow the bookmark to Martial Power, or just jump ahead to Page 49.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I'm glad they made Hellfire Blood useful. I wish that all those other themed damage feats got fixed so they'd be more attractive; right now it's better to take weapon focus with your staff rather than astral fire et. al. (which are not only situational but have some inconvenient prereqs).

Hide Armor Expertise also got majorly nerfed. Flat +2 AC bonus instead of getting to use Con Mod.



Darn. I knew it was too good to last (particularly for my swarm druid)... but we have a bit of lag before we have to update our RPGA characters, right?

...huzzay for the death of über-orb of impsition-wizards, defender-AC-hide expertise and infame frost-cheese:
powergamer has left the building!

Money mouth

beside jokes, it's useful and welcome for all the long attended nerfing
but seeing errata also for a really new Book like that one for Dragonorn makes me laugh a bit
Call Spirit Companion also got changed, added "The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.”

...Does this mean with Sudden Call a shaman can call his spirit as a free action, and it will automatically dismiss the previous one? hurrah for Sprit Companions!
Call Spirit Companion also got changed, added "The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.”

...Does this mean with Sudden Call a shaman can call his spirit as a free action, and it will automatically dismiss the previous one? hurrah for Sprit Companions!



I believe that *does* mean that you no longer have to dismiss the old one before calling a new one, since calling the new one now automatically wishes the old one into the cornfield!

Am I wrong?
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Call Spirit Companion also got changed, added "The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.”

...Does this mean with Sudden Call a shaman can call his spirit as a free action, and it will automatically dismiss the previous one? hurrah for Sprit Companions!



Sounds like it! Hooray, now my Shaman won't be spending all 3 of his actions as minor actions.
So, two questions...

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things?  Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other?  Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?

-----

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes?  Anyone have a full list?  EDIT:  Looking at it, it... doesn't look as bad as it sounds.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes?  Anyone have a full list?

I don't think any feats are.  They've changed a few feat bonues to untyped bonuses.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So, two questions...

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things?  Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other?  Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?

-----

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes?  Anyone have a full list?



Feat A with Feat A = does not stack. (Ex. echoes of thunder can't stack with itself)
Feat A with Feat B = Does stack.      (Ex. Echoes of Thunder and Power Attack's unnamed bonus to damage rolls does stack)

And as a note, If Feat A says it stacks or is cumulative with itself, then it stacks. (Ex. Escalating Assault from frpg p133)
This thing is 88 pages long now.  Is it too much to ask to have a table of contents so i can jump to the errata for the book i want without scorlling through the entire document.
This thing is 88 pages long now.  Is it too much to ask to have a table of contents so i can jump to the errata for the book i want without scorlling through the entire document.


I think the zip file has them seperated by book.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So, two questions...

First, how exactly does the "Bonus and Penalties" errata affect things?  Is it saying that (A.) untyped bonuses from the same game element (power, feat, class feature) do not stack with each other?  Or is it merely saying that (B.) untyped bonuses from the same single game element (so Feat A and Feat B) do not stack with each other?

So if I have Feat A that gives +1 attack, and Feat B that gives +1 attack (both untyped)... do they still stack?



Two Feats with different names that give Untyped bonuses stack.

The same Feat giving an untyped bonus multiple times does NOT stack - so, Echoes Of Thunder doesn't stack with itself any more.  As well, the "source" has been clarified to be the Feat or Item itself, not the power it is used with.

So, a Cloak Of Translocation no longer gives +2 to defenses *per teleportation you use*, even though your feycharging Swordmage uses at least three different Teleportation powers every round.

Second, what feats have been made "obsolete (and we're not going to change that!)" by the Expertise changes?  Anyone have a full list?



Not sure.  There are 75 Feats in the Compendium that have the words "Feat Bonus To Hit", but that includes a metric ton of Feats that have a "Feat Bonus to Whatever" and also the word "Hit" or "Hit points".

I suspect all situational to-hit bonuses will become untyped, and all "always on" Feat bonuses like the gnome illusionist Feat will stay Feat bonuses because they also give another bonus effect.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
This thing is 88 pages long now.  Is it too much to ask to have a table of contents so i can jump to the errata for the book i want without scorlling through the entire document.



... the PDF is bookmarked, with a bookmark for the start of any given book.  Just click the bookmark and poof, there you are.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Well don't i feel stupid.  Comment recinded.

Wow, the damage type-keyword connection has opened up a lot of new builds, even if there's less abusive stuff to do with keywords now.

The last question remaining is how things like Shocking Flame work.  Is adding +2 fire damage considered changing the damage type of the power, and thus adding the keyword?  Is a crit with a Flaming Weapon that doesn't currently have its at-will power activated a fire attack?  Perhaps 'extra damage' won't be counted as something that changes/adds keywords.

Edit: how did the  Fey Charge/ESA combo escape notice yet again?

And they're a doozy, with a wide selection of fixes and nerfs.


PHB:
Righteous Brand: Nerfed! (+3 instead of +Strength.  Not a big deal at low level, was INSANE at very high level)
Orb Of Imposition:  Nerfed!  First save only!  Still mean, but no longer possible to truly Stunlock, period! 
Blood Pulse:  Nerfed!  Non-rolled damage, voluntary movement only!
Lasting Frost:  Clarified and lightly Nerfed!
Divine Miracle:  Nerfed!  It's 1/Encounter

Untyped Bonuses:  now only stack from different sources and "source" is clarified - the same name on the source means no stacking.  (This nerfs a WHOLE SHITLOAD of stuff.  In a good way!)
Damage types and keywords:  Finally officially clarified!  Changing damage type changes keywords.  Adding damage adds keywords.  Removing damage removes keywords.


AV:
Cunning:  Nerfed!  First save only!
Staff Of Ruin:  Requires that you use THE STAFF to make the attack!  No more off-handing Staves Of Ruin, plural.
Boots Of Eagerness:  Minor action, grants a Move, not Free grants a move (that could be converted to Minor).  Still awesome!
Salve Of Power:  Nerfed!  Restores Encounter powers, not Dailies.  No level limit!
Solitaires:  All Daily now, not Encounter!  And the AP-granting one now limits you to 1 AP/Encounter.
Potion Of Clarity:  Nerfed!  It's got a maximum level on the power it can effect, now, to stop you from stocking up on 50GP ones and rerolling your biggest powers with them.


PHB2:
EXPERTISE CHANGE!  All "Expertise" Feats now provide Feat Bonuses.  Most situational bonuses to hit from non-Expertise Feats are now untyped, not Feat!


AV2:
Ankhmon's Bracers:  Nerfed!  No more +1d10 damage and regain 1d10HP every time you hit with combat advantage, Mr Sorceror Man.
Diamond Cincture now costs Surges.  Remember how I said it was gonna get nerfed?  Yeah.  It did.


Divine Power:
Pacifist Healer made *stronger*, because now it requires a hit or miss and damage - ongoing/autodamage no longer included!


Dragon Mag:
Student Of Caiphon no longer gives extra crits to non-Warlocks going for Radiant Weapons.
Winged Horde:  Removes +INT from damage.



hey thanks for that.  I am at work and can't access that right now.  It also makes looking for the changes when I get home easier *thumbs up*
I see they attempted to address the "Weapon as an Implement vs Implement as a Weapon" debate. I say attempted, as they left some questions STILL wide open.

For instance......Does a Staff being weilded as a Double "weapon" qualify for Dual "implement" spellcaster???

The wait continues....Yell

Otherwise decent update


The last question remaining is how things like Shocking Flame work.  Is adding +2 fire damage considered changing the damage type of the power, and thus adding the keyword? 



FTFA:
"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"


So, yes.  When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed.  Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.


Is a crit with a Flaming Weapon that doesn't currently have its at-will power activated a fire attack?


You've added fire damage to your non-fire attack.  This changes the damage types in the power, which means the Keywords change.  Since you've added fire damage, you add the Fire keyword. 


So, yes.  Critting with a flaming weapon makes the power a Fire power.


Perhaps 'extra damage' won't be counted as something that changes/adds keywords.


That would require a new and different update.  As it is now, any change to the types of damage changes the Keywords to match, period.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I see they attempted to address the "Weapon as an Implement vs Implement as a Weapon" debate. I say attempted, as they left some questions STILL wide open.

For instance......Does a Staff being weilded as a Double "weapon" qualify for Dual "implement" spellcaster???

The wait continues....

Otherwise decent update




I think we'll have to wait and see what PHB3 brings to determine the extent of the weaplement changes.  As it is now, there are only a handful of weapons that specifically use the "with a weapon attack" or "with a weapon power" language.  Does cunning weapon work with implement powers?  What about bloodiron?  They mention "weapons" but not "weapon powers" or "weapon attacks."  Maybe the May update will make use of the core rules change.
Thank you for this update. I approve of all changes.

Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
LFR Epic Writing Director

LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director


The last question remaining is how things like Shocking Flame work.  Is adding +2 fire damage considered changing the damage type of the power, and thus adding the keyword? 



FTFA:
"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"


So, yes.  When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed.  Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.




My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.



FTFA:
"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"


So, yes.  When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed.  Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.




My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.




... how is it unclear?

By adding a new damage type, you are changing the types of damage in a power.  "Fire damage and cold damage" is not the same as "fire damage".  "Acid damage and psychic damage" is not the same as "acid damage".

"If the damage types in a power change", blah blah bah.

On what planet does adding something new not constitute a change from the original?
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I knew that Blood Pulse had to be nerfed, but I really wish they had left in a way to tier the damage (maybe 10 in epic). Eventually monsters are going to walk all over that power as it stands.

But then again, everything is coming down in power, so it should probably work out.
I knew that Blood Pulse had to be nerfed, but I really wish they had left in a way to tier the damage (maybe 10 in epic). Eventually monsters are going to walk all over that power as it stands.

But then again, everything is coming down in power, so it should probably work out.



It's still a nice big multitarget burst, as part of a Paragon Path that still kicks significant ass

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.


I believe it does not, as you aren't adding that +3 Fire Damage to the Power; you are simply tacking it on with the damage. I could be wrong, of course.
Resident Logic Cannon

FTFA:
"If the damage types in a power change, the power both loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed and gains the keywords for any damage types that are added"


So, yes.  When you add fire damage and there was no fire damage before, the damage types in the power have changed.  Since they've changed, you add and remove the appropriate keywords.




My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.




... how is it unclear?

By adding a new damage type, you are changing the types of damage in a power.  "Fire damage and cold damage" is not the same as "fire damage".  "Acid damage and psychic damage" is not the same as "acid damage".

"If the damage types in a power change", blah blah bah.

On what planet does adding something new not constitute a change from the original?



A Stormsoul Genasi Fighter with the Shocking Flame feat uses Melee Basic Attack.

What damage type does the power deal?  It's not dealing lightning damage; it's still dealing untyped damage.  The damage that the power deals has not changed.  The extra 2 lightning damage is being tacked on at the end. It doesn't retroactively change all the power's damage to lightning.

The example given in the update refers to powers that change or add to the damage type of a power.  Shocking Flame adds a few points of damage, not a whole damage type to the power, hence my hesitancy to assume that it too will completely change the keywords of a power.  

BTW, on Omicron Persei 7 adding something new does not constitute a change from the original.




A Stormsoul Genasi Fighter with the Shocking Flame feat uses Melee Basic Attack.



Shocking Flame:  "your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage" (and also some other stuff)

What damage type does the power deal? 



1W+STR Untyped +2 Fire.

It's not dealing lightning damage; it's still dealing untyped damage. 



It's dealing Untyped damage and it is ALSO dealing fire or lightning damage.

The damage that the power deals has not changed.



Yes, it has.  Previously, it did 1W+STR untyped damage.  Now it deals 1W+STR+2 Fire damage.

The extra 2 lightning damage is being tacked on at the end. It doesn't retroactively change all the power's damage to lightning.



And?

Previously, the power did untyped damage.
Now it does untyped and fire damage, or untyped and lightning damage.

The damage types of the power have changed, because they are different.  Altered.  Not the same.


The example given in the update refers to powers that change or add to the damage type of a power. 



True, but it is an EXAMPLE.

There are many examples that do not exhaustively describe all possible permutations of a rule.  Right there, the example doesn't even MENTION poison damage, and yet the rule has a specific exception for Poison - OMG THIS MAKES NO SENSE.  Or, maybe, wacky thought, the example is JUST AN EXAMPLE and it was picked because it shows both adding a damage type and removing a damage type in a single step.

Shocking Flame adds a few points of damage, not a whole damage type to the power, hence my hesitancy to assume that it too will completely change the keywords of a power. 



Shocking Flame causes the power to deal Fire or Lightning damage in addition to it's normal damage types.

This is a change to the types of damage dealt by the power.

Since the types of damage dealt by the power have changed, the keywords on the power have changed to match.

This is not ambiguous and this is not in any way complicated.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.


BTW, on Omicron Persei 7 adding something new does not constitute a change from the original.






I rofl'd
My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.


I believe it does not, as you aren't adding that +3 Fire Damage to the Power; you are simply tacking it on with the damage. I could be wrong, of course.



"Your power deals 1d6 extra fire damage" causes YOUR POWER to deal FIRE DAMAGE.

Since your power is dealing Fire Damage, either it was dealing fire damage before (and there is no change) or it was not dealing fire damage before (and thus, dealing fire damage is a change).

If there was no change, there is no change.
If there was a change to the damage types dealt by the power, the keywords of the power change.

Seriously, why is this even remotely a *question*?
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
No mention of the Grasping Weapon nerf yet?

It's been a long time coming and is entirely justified, but still - my Eladrin fighter is going to miss his cheesy "drag-the-controller-across-the-entire-room" grasping Tratnyr. 
No mention of the Grasping Weapon nerf yet?

It's been a long time coming and is entirely justified, but still - my Eladrin fighter is going to miss his cheesy "drag-the-controller-across-the-entire-room" grasping Tratnyr. 



I quite liked the grasping thing the way it used to be, since magical thrown weapons magically return to your hand. The only reason I see for it needing to be changed was a ruleswise one, and tbh I don't think that ranged grasping was so overpowered to begin with, especially when you compare it to some of the things which they left out for this update.

A Stormsoul Genasi Fighter with the Shocking Flame feat uses Melee Basic Attack.

 

Shocking Flame:  "your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage" (and also some other stuff)

What damage type does the power deal? 

 

1W+STR Untyped +2 Fire.



And this is really the issue, which part of that damage does the power get credit for?

My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.


I believe it does not, as you aren't adding that +3 Fire Damage to the Power; you are simply tacking it on with the damage. I could be wrong, of course.



"Your power deals 1d6 extra fire damage" causes YOUR POWER to deal FIRE DAMAGE.

Since your power is dealing Fire Damage, either it was dealing fire damage before (and there is no change) or it was not dealing fire damage before (and thus, dealing fire damage is a change).

If there was no change, there is no change.
If there was a change to the damage types dealt by the power, the keywords of the power change.

Seriously, why is this even remotely a *question*?



What exactly are you quoting?
Shocking Flame: "your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage or an extra 2 lightning damage, respectively"
Flaming weapon crit property: "+1d6 fire damage per plus"
Was there another example we were using?
My question is really, "Does adding extra damage of a type change the damage type of the power?"  I believe that is unclear.


I believe it does not, as you aren't adding that +3 Fire Damage to the Power; you are simply tacking it on with the damage. I could be wrong, of course.

"Your power deals 1d6 extra fire damage" causes YOUR POWER to deal FIRE DAMAGE.

Seriously, why is this even remotely a *question*?

Because it's critical to understand how this works with resistances?

Let's say your firesoul genasi with shocking flame hits a tiefling (resist fire:10) with a melee basic attack.  Your unmodified MBA does 1d8+5 damage untyped damage.  Let's say you roll a 3, for a total of 8 untyped damage.  When you add the shocking flame damage (+2 fire), how much damage does the Tiefling take?  If shocking flame turns your whole attack in to a fire attack -- which is what I believe you're advocating -- you've just inflicted zero damage.  If shocking flame instead just tacks on a 2-point fire damage packet, you've still inflicted eight damage.

I believe that things that change(replace) the keywords of a power spell it out -- a Flaming Weapon's at-will power, for example, states that ALL damage dealt by the weapon is fire damage.  Shocking Flame doesn't talk about a change -- it just adds a little damage packet.  In the example above, it's the difference between 1d8+5+2(fire) and (1d8+7)fire.


Shocking Flame: "your melee attacks deal an extra 2 fire damage or an extra 2 lightning damage, respectively"
Flaming weapon crit property: "+1d6 fire damage per plus"
Was there another example we were using? 



Skip the basic attack in this scenerio for a moment. Use a power that deals a flat 1[W] cold damage for ease of example.

That 1[W] cold damage power has the "Cold" keyword.

Add Shocking Flame for 2 lightning damage and that whole attack now deals 1[W] Cold damage + 2 lightning damage.
That attack now has the Cold AND Lightning keywords.

Add a +1 Flaming weapon crit property to the mix and the attack now deals 1[W] cold damage + 2 lightning damage + 1d6 fire damage.
That attack now has the Cold and Lightning and Fire keywords.


Back to the basic attack example with just the Shocking Flame (lightning) and you get
1[W] +str untyped damage + 2 lightning damage. It is both untyped and lightning.
"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.