Deities in LFR for Divine Classes.

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I've been wondering how Deities precisely work in LFR with the equivalency charts.  If Sehanine and Selune are equivalent deties, than I can clearly build an Paladin of Selune using Sehanine channel divinity feats.  However, can I have my domains be Love, Moon, and Trickery, instead of Arcana, Change and Moon?  Or are by domains both, because the God's are equivalent?  Does that mean I can take Power of Love AND Power of Arcana for my character?

Thanks for the help.
As the domains for Forgotten Realms deities are listed in Dragon #378, that article is an example of the "specific trumps general" rule.  You can only select from those domains given in that article for your deity; you can't use the domain list for the "equivalent" god from the core list.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Short and sweet answer: No.

Explanation:

"In addition, the Realms-equivalent deity serves as a proxy for any other rules prerequisite that specifies the Player’s Handbook deity."

There is nothing in the prerequisites for the domains that specify a PHB deity.  IOW, it woudl need to say "Prerequisite: Must worship Sehanine" for it to qualify like the CD feats or some PPs do.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Oh wow. Ok.  That's a lot more restrictive than I thought.  Does that mean that something like Power of Winter is impossible to take?  Since the only FR deity with the winter domain is CE?
Yes, Winter is unavailable for the moment.
The equivalency rules were put in place originally because when the campaign started we didn't have any of the FR books.  Also, a lot of new material that comes out is being made for the core set of deities.  Personally I think we're at a point that we can dump the equivalency rules.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Also, a lot of new material that comes out is being made for the core set of deities.  Personally I think we're at a point that we can dump the equivalency rules.


So that we can't use the lot of new material that comes out?
Wow, this should really be made more obvious.  My invoker of Kelemvor had the Power of Winter feat for a while, and because it's from one of the Raven Queen's options I thought it was totally legal.  He did have it before the article with domains for FR gods came out.  Does that make any difference?  At any rate, I'm glad I retrained it.  The CCG should say what you can and can't take from the PH gods, so people aren't accidentally cheating like I was apparently.
Wow, this should really be made more obvious.  My invoker of Kelemvor had the Power of Winter feat for a while, and because it's from one of the Raven Queen's options I thought it was totally legal.  He did have it before the article with domains for FR gods came out.  Does that make any difference?  At any rate, I'm glad I retrained it.  The CCG should say what you can and can't take from the PH gods, so people aren't accidentally cheating like I was apparently.



It's an easy assumption I wanted to build a Dragonborn Paladin of The Raven Queen because of the Winter Domain it was an ice themed charactor. Cold Breath, from Akanul, even took Winter Touched at fisrt level and then BLAM I was told must Worship Kelemvor which totally changed my plans. But then I read how awesome Kelemvor is and decided to roll with the punch I found every undead infested mod I could to play him with I even went so far as to take the Damphyr racial feat in order to become a Deadstalker at Paragon. It's really a terrific Paragon path for those that want to take Kelemvor's hatred for undead to a whole other level.     
Does that mean that something like Power of Winter is impossible to take?  



Nothing is impossible . . . . .

Play a Changeling from Eberron Player's Guide and take the feat "Fickle Servant."  This allows you to take any domain power feat.  


Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
LFR Epic Writing Director

LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director

Also, a lot of new material that comes out is being made for the core set of deities.  Personally I think we're at a point that we can dump the equivalency rules.


So that we can't use the lot of new material that comes out?



There's not a lot of material that is deity specific.  A small handful of PPs, a feat here or there.  God Fragments.  I don't see it as that big an issue that 5% of the material (and that's a very generous estimate) released couldn't be used.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Also, a lot of new material that comes out is being made for the core set of deities.  Personally I think we're at a point that we can dump the equivalency rules.


So that we can't use the lot of new material that comes out?



There's not a lot of material that is deity specific.  A small handful of PPs, a feat here or there.  God Fragments.  I don't see it as that big an issue that 5% of the material (and that's a very generous estimate) released couldn't be used.

Yet it's the bread and butter of the divine power source. That's like saying that martial styles are not allowed since their schools are not FR and they only make a fraction of the martial options. Or that primal elements referring to core primal spirits should not be allowed for LFR.

Also, a lot of new material that comes out is being made for the core set of deities.  Personally I think we're at a point that we can dump the equivalency rules.


So that we can't use the lot of new material that comes out?



There's not a lot of material that is deity specific.  A small handful of PPs, a feat here or there.  God Fragments.  I don't see it as that big an issue that 5% of the material (and that's a very generous estimate) released couldn't be used.

Yet it's the bread and butter of the divine power source. That's like saying that martial styles are not allowed since their schools are not FR and they only make a fraction of the martial options. Or that primal elements referring to core primal spirits should not be allowed for LFR.


What exactly is bread and butter?  Channel Divinity?  The FR gods have their own.  Deity specific PPs?  Same.  What else that's been released could be considered bread and butter?  You can make a divine character just fine without ever taking any option that has the worship of a PHB deity as a prerequisite.

So what would be missing that's "bread and butter?"  A term that denotes a character made without such options is somehow lacking or unplayable.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I think the holy symbols and boons are the only PHB deity specific items that don't have FR equivalents. In case of boons that is no problem, since they are generally not available anyway, and if added as a treasure bundle the authors/administrators can change the fluff. In case of items, that is only true as a bundle. Not sure the loss of those would be that big a deal...
Nitpick: Boons are a DMG item.  And they came out with the DMG 2 at that.  So if that were to be considered "bread and butter" I call shenanigans.  ;)

And the symbols... even without an equivalent, I would suspect they are not a common thing among players.  So I agree, it's likely not goign to be much of a loss.

Still hunting for the mythical bread and butter.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I've always been confused about the special deity-specific holy symbols/weapons.  So can LFR characters take a holy symbol that has the prereq of the equivalent deity?  Or are those items just off-limits in LFR?


Lori Anderson

WotC Freelancer, LFR author

@LittleLorika

 

Dragon Magazine #412: Unearthed Arcana: Ships in Your Campaign

Calimshan Adventures (LFR): CALI3-3, CALI4-1, and QUES4-1

Epic Adventures (LFR): EPIC5-1 and EPIC5-3

Other LFR Adventures: NETH4-1, ADCP5-2, and MYTH6-3

 

 

 

 

Only a few are avaliable for FR.

Star of Corellon, Moradin's Indestructable Anvil and Dragonscale of Bahamut.

There is a Fist of Kord in a module, but unfortunately Kord is not an FR deity.
Only a few are avaliable for FR.

Star of Corellon, Moradin's Indestructable Anvil and Dragonscale of Bahamut.

There is a Fist of Kord in a module, but unfortunately Kord is not an FR deity.

Those are prerequisites, with specific PHB deities. Why wouldn't they work?
Because Corellon, Moradin and Bahamut are FR deities?
The Fist of Kord specifically says you can use it if you worship Tempus or one of his Exarchs.
Because Corellon, Moradin and Bahamut are FR deities?

I mean the Sun Disk of Pelor and others you didn't mention.

Prerequisite: To use this symbol, you must worship Pelor.

It's a prerequisite. You take Pelor, and replace it with Amaunator. It's now usable in LFR. Done.
Corellon and Corellon are two totally different entities.  One is good, while the other is unaligned.
Yes, the equivalency rule counts for PHB Deity specific magic symbols and PP pre-reqs.  SO a symbol that requires you worship the Raven Queen woudl be usable by followers of Kelemvor, etc.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
So if you worship a deity that doesn't have a PHB equivalent, then that's just too bad for you?  Only half of the FR deities have a PHB equivalent (11 out of 21 deities).  So I guess if you worship a deity like Ilmater, Waukeen, or Sune then you can't take any of the deity specific magic items or paragon paths?  That's unfortunate. 

Lori Anderson

WotC Freelancer, LFR author

@LittleLorika

 

Dragon Magazine #412: Unearthed Arcana: Ships in Your Campaign

Calimshan Adventures (LFR): CALI3-3, CALI4-1, and QUES4-1

Epic Adventures (LFR): EPIC5-1 and EPIC5-3

Other LFR Adventures: NETH4-1, ADCP5-2, and MYTH6-3

 

 

 

 

Huh? I fail to see the problem. If you worship Moradin, you cannot pick the implement of Kord either and how many deity related PPs are there in the core books? The FRPG actually has FR deity related PPs (from memory Selune and Sune) and I have seen a Tymora one somewhere as well.

(Note that storywise the lack of deity specific holy symbols and boons is a bit of a shame...)
So if you worship a deity that doesn't have a PHB equivalent, then that's just too bad for you?  Only half of the FR deities have a PHB equivalent (11 out of 21 deities).  So I guess if you worship a deity like Ilmater, Waukeen, or Sune then you can't take any of the deity specific magic items or paragon paths?  That's unfortunate. 



You're correct.  It does close you out of a relatively small number of rules items.  OTOH, if you *did* worship a deity which had a PHB equivalent, the vast majority of those same rules items (paragon paths and holy symbols) would *still* be closed to you, since they're still for deities other than your own. 

The net, more or less, is that you lose out on having a deity-specific holy symbol available to you, and a deity-specific paragon path available to you.  In the end, I don't see that as being a tremendous disadvantage.  If you do, then it's something you should take into account when you select which deity your character worships.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
It just seems like there is more deity-specific content for PHB deities than FR deities.  For example, all the Adventurer's Vault Holy Symbols are for PHB deities.  The text says "If the gods in your game world are different from the ones featured in the Player's Handbook, feel free to tweak the names and prerequisites of these holy symbols to serve the needs of your home campaign."  But we're not playing a home campaign.  If your god matches one of the ones that has been given a PHB equivalent, then you're in luck.  If not, you have fewer options. 

There are only four deity-specific Paragon Paths in the FR Player's Guide.  Three of those deities (Amaunator, Selune, and Kelemvor) already have a PHB equivalent.  So worshippers of those three deities have access to FR content as well as any content for their PHB equivalent.  (Sorry - I guess Sune was a bad example as one of the "left out" deities since there is a FR paragon path.)

Every deity has a channel divinity power.  Some, like Gond and Tymora, have 2 options for channel divinity (one in the FR book and one for their PHB equivalent).  For half of the FR deities, that channel divinity is the only special deity-only content available.  I guess it's not a big difference in the amount of open content now, but that might change.  I could be wrong, but I would imagine that a lot of the new content that comes out will be for worshippers of the PHB gods (under the assumption that people using a different system of deities will just tweak the prerequisites).

I just don't understand why half the LFR gods have PHB equivalents so characters can use any new content that comes out for them and the other half of the gods don't.  If there's a good reason behind it, that's fine.  It just seems unfortunate that worshippers of some deities have fewer options than worshippers of other deities for no readily apparent reason.  Probably not a big deal (at least they published a list of domains), but still mildly annoying.

Lori Anderson

WotC Freelancer, LFR author

@LittleLorika

 

Dragon Magazine #412: Unearthed Arcana: Ships in Your Campaign

Calimshan Adventures (LFR): CALI3-3, CALI4-1, and QUES4-1

Epic Adventures (LFR): EPIC5-1 and EPIC5-3

Other LFR Adventures: NETH4-1, ADCP5-2, and MYTH6-3

 

 

 

 

Yeah, try being a cleric of Lebelas Enoreth! No Domains or Channel Divinity feats to speak of! Wink

It would be great to see a Dragon article or something similar detailing the rest of the FR gods, since no new FR books are forthcoming.
I just don't understand why half the LFR gods have PHB equivalents so characters can use any new content that comes out for them and the other half of the gods don't.

Actually it's much less than half. You forgot to count the lesser gods and exarchs whose worshippers get no feats/items at all

Maybe someone will write an article for Dragon . . .   Cool

Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
LFR Epic Writing Director

LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director

I just don't understand why half the LFR gods have PHB equivalents so characters can use any new content that comes out for them and the other half of the gods don't.



My guess is that it wasn't actively planned in that way.

The list of deities in the PHB is (a) pretty short, and (b) really a mish-mosh of deities from different sources.  You have a couple of deities they pulled from the Greyhawk pantheons (such as Pelor), you have a few which they pulled from the FR pantheons (such as Bane), you have the traditional "non-human" deities (Moradin, Corellon, etc.), which were already established as existing in the Realms, but were originally created for "core" D&D 30 years ago, and you have a few (such as the Raven Queen) which were created expressly for 4E.

So, when you take the list of deities in the PHB, and remove the deities which were already established as being in the Realms (and the evil deities), you're left with a list of 8 deities.  The CCG shows the "equivalents" to those deities in the Realms, based largely on trying to match up their spheres of influence (though, as has been discussed in threads about the Raven Queen and Kelemvor, the matches aren't always precise, because the natures of some of the deity "matches" aren't the same).

I'm fairly certain that these "equivalencies" were created to (a) allow LFR players to use the deity-specific rules items in books like Complete Divine, and (b) to account for players who don't have access to the FRPG, and start out by creating a character solely using the PHB.

As you note, that does leave a number of greater gods in the Realms which don't have an "equivalent" in the PHB (not to mention all of the exarchs and primordials).  There are simply far more gods in the Realms than in 4E's "core" pantheon (and, if you think it's bad *now*, you should have seen it in the 3.x era, when the list of FR deities was considerably larger). 

It's clear that the LFR staff didn't attempt to "reverse-engineer" a best-fit for each of those deities, probably because (a) it could cause confusion, since you'd have to designate a PHB deity as being an "equivalent" for multiple FR deities, and (b) there simply isn't a good fit for many of those other FR deities in the PHB.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Maybe someone will write an article for Dragon . . .   Cool



That's probably a very elegant solution.  Write up an article with holy symbols for the "uncovered" FR gods, and so on. :D
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
If I ever find the time, I might submit proposals to do that.  Like writing temple articles back in the 90s for Polyhedron.

Keith
Keith Hoffman LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
That would be too awesome for words. Except for the word "Awesome".
Huh? I fail to see the problem. If you worship Moradin, you cannot pick the implement of Kord either and how many deity related PPs are there in the core books? The FRPG actually has FR deity related PPs (from memory Selune and Sune)



Amaunator, Selune, Sune and Kelemvor.

and I have seen a Tymora one somewhere as well.



It was in Dragon 365 (Luckbringer of Tymora).  Dragon also gave us a Banite class (not that PCs can take it).

Divine Power gave PPs to Moradin and Correllon.
PHBR: Dragonborn gave one for Bahamut.

Dragon magazine gave us one for the Raven Queen.

I just don't understand why half the LFR gods have PHB equivalents so characters can use any new content that comes out for them and the other half of the gods don't. 



Because it's a throwback to the beginning of the campaign when the FR books hadn't even been released yet.  Don't worry, there's no great conspiracy.  You couldn't do an equivalency for every FR deity anyway... there's too many and too few PHB deities.

Thus the reason I said there's no real good reason to keep the equivalency rule around.  The number of rules items that require worship of a PHB deity for divine characters is a extremely small percentage.

Not counting Eberron PPs, the ones I listed above... that's it.  Seriously.  That's all the PPs in the Compendium that require worship of a deity that are usable in LFR.  10 Non-Eberron Deity specific PPs out of 397 (which includes Eberron) which means 2.5% of all PPs in are LFR-usable deity specific. (9 if you take out Bane since that PP can't be taken by LFR players)  So if we took out the Raven Queen PP, and the unplayable Bane PP, those 2 PPs are 0.5% of all PPs you'd be giving up.

Now, it's possible that not all of them showed up in my search.  For example, the Luckbringer didn't at first because the compendium has it's pre-reqs as just "Cleric class."  It didn't have the "must worship Tymora" entry that the article has.  I am 99% sure that's a typo.

There are 4 Epic Destinies that require worship.  1 is Eberron, 1 is Bahamut, and 2 are Raven Queen.  Out of 74 Epic Destinies.  That's 2.7% of all EDs being PHB specific that you'd be giving up.

And of course 11 holy symbols.

The one place you may "fall short" is in the feat department.  From what I can gleen from the compendium:

19 feats require Raven Queen
1 requires Ioun
1 requires Pelor
2 require Erathis
3 require Avandra
2 require Sehanine
1 requires Melora
2 require Kord

31 feats for PHB deities (and it illustrates their Raven Queen fetish).  Although with a total of 2097 feats in the compendium, that's still running 1.5%.  (yes, I know not all 2097 feats will apply to a specific divine character)

So to recap... if we were to scrap the equivalency rules, we'd be giving up 1 PP, 2 EDs, 31 Feats, and 11 holy symbols.  Sure, others may come out in the future, but the overall totals of everythign will be increasing as well, so unless we get inundated with deity specific options, those percentages are unlikely to change much.  IOW, we wouldn't be losing much.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I just want my Shaundakul back. He was the best god!

At least, in 2nd edition, he gave out the most badass specialty priest abilities.






-np
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Maybe someone will write an article for Dragon . . .   Cool



That's probably a very elegant solution.  Write up an article with holy symbols for the "uncovered" FR gods, and so on. :D



Sounds like a good solution to me!  Smile  It would be a shame to see players avoiding the worship of certain deities just because there are fewer rules options for them.  (I think the game world would be more rich and interesting if not every single divine character worshipped Tempus...  Tongue out)

Lori Anderson

WotC Freelancer, LFR author

@LittleLorika

 

Dragon Magazine #412: Unearthed Arcana: Ships in Your Campaign

Calimshan Adventures (LFR): CALI3-3, CALI4-1, and QUES4-1

Epic Adventures (LFR): EPIC5-1 and EPIC5-3

Other LFR Adventures: NETH4-1, ADCP5-2, and MYTH6-3

 

 

 

 

Maybe someone will write an article for Dragon . . .  



That's probably a very elegant solution.  Write up an article with holy symbols for the "uncovered" FR gods, and so on. :D



Sounds like a good solution to me!    It would be a shame to see players avoiding the worship of certain deities just because there are fewer rules options for them.  (I think the game world would be more rich and interesting if not every single divine character worshipped Tempus...  )



My Invoker PC worships Jergal, because doomscribe is the most awesome title ever!

-SYB
(I think the game world would be more rich and interesting if not every single divine character worshipped Tempus...  )



And, I suspect the vast majority of *that* is due to the still-frakking-overpowered RRoT feat.

(Parenthetically, I do play a cleric...of Selune. )
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
I think the game world would be more rich and interesting if not every single divine character worshipped Tempus... 



Hey... my Paladin worships his Exarch, the Red Knight!
My cleric characters worship Uthgar and Shevarash.  They don't get any goodies!