Fearing InvokerMCWarlock

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Howdy all,

I would love to hear some feedback on:

Tiefling Invoker with the Infernal Malediction (DP) feat.
Adds fear to Invoker Powers after using Tiefling's Infernal Wrath
MC Warlock through Pact Initiate and take the Doomsayer Paragon Path
At level 11, enemies need to roll twice to save against fear effects.

I like the combo, but you have to give up a fair bit for it, since the Paragon Path is otherwise useless and Tieflings don't give +Wis. With Power of Tyranny (Yeah, I know, Evil), Covenant of Malediction, and a Skull Mask, it seems that you can make it pretty hard to save against most effects, though. 

Any thoughts on whether this is simply giving up too much or if there is potential here? Or is there another way to go with this that works out better?

Thanks,
Ithreul 
Any thoughts on whether this is simply giving up too much or if there is potential here? Or is there another way to go with this that works out better?


Let's check this out at paragon. At paragon, you've got a cunning staff and skull mask, so that's -5 to saves. You can take either Doomsayer or Hammer of Vengeance/Adept of Whispers, which grant another -2 to saves.

Saving on a 15+, rerolled is a 9% chance to save. Saving on a 17+ is a 20% chance to save.

That's fairly sizable. BTW, Power of Sea is almost as good as Tyranny and is available to a non-evil deity (Melora). Let me take a look at the invoker guide and see how many fear-keyword save-ends dailies there are; you might not even need to be a tiefling.

BRB. 
Mmkay. You can do this as a non-tiefling, since there are two excellent fear save-ends AOE dailies at level 9. (In particular, Fourfold Invocation of Doom hits the whole battlefield.) That's it, though, so if you want more than two dailies for this trick (and I assume you do), you'll need to be a tiefling unless you've got some other trick to get fear onto your attacks. 

The powers kind of suck. There's no two ways about it, and I'm struggling to find any way to make them work.

Being able to throw Fear onto Silent Malediction seems pretty nifty if one goes the Warlock route.

In addition, Malediction of Rigidity can be made practically unsaveable, I think.
-2 from the power itself
-2 from skull mask
-2 from cunning staff
-2 Divine Bolts, since MoR is a Minor Action
-1 from Covenant of Malediction
Then either reroll from Doomsayer or -2 from HoV/AoW.
 
Also, I think there is a Dragonmark from Eberron that causes a -2 penalty to saves against damage. 

There is another Warlock MC feat that would allow the use of a curse 1/encounter that would allow some use out of the level 12 Doomsayer Utility. But I agree that the powers for it basically suck. 


Being able to throw Fear onto Silent Malediction seems pretty nifty if one goes the Warlock route.

In addition, Malediction of Rigidity can be made practically unsaveable, I think.
-2 from the power itself
-2 from skull mask
-2 from cunning staff
-2 Divine Bolts, since MoR is a Minor Action
-1 from Covenant of Malediction
Then either reroll from Doomsayer or -2 from HoV/AoW.



COM doesn't stick (it's just until EONT) and you'd need to spend your whole turn standing there at point blank range since that's minor-minor-standard. Under those specific circumstances, Hammer/Adept are better, since it's no save possible the first turn, but Doomsayer is better as long as they have any chance to save at all.
 
Also, I think there is a Dragonmark from Eberron that causes a -2 penalty to saves against damage.


Deluge of Blood, Malediction of Rigidity, Invoke the Fallen, Shackles of the Chained God, and Trumpet the Eight Dooms the only ongoing damage and debuff save-ends effects, and Deluge is out-of-turn so you can't use it with Infernal Malediction. Plus, Shackles and Trumpet kind of suck (and Trumpet isn't reliable.) So that leaves two solid dailies, one of which is epic.

There is another Warlock MC feat that would allow the use of a curse 1/encounter that would allow some use out of the level 12 Doomsayer Utility. But I agree that the powers for it basically suck.


You can't take it at the same time as Pact Initiate, so you can't take that feat and also qualify for Doomsayer in the first place.

Hey um. I don't actually play tieflings, but isn't it sort of a major limitation on this build that you need to get punched in the face to use Infernal Malediction at all? It rather limits the situations where you can set up the use of your dailies. 

I suppose you could just get a party member to punch you when you want to go to town, but that's a wasted action. 
BTW, there's Talisman of Terror in AV2. I need to note that in the invoker guide.
If you want to run a fearinducing invoker, I'd recommend multiclassing to assassin (Shadow Initiate, preq dex 13), and getting the paragon feat Nightmare Master which dazes all creatures hit by your fear attacks. Adding Psychic Lock and Power of the Earth makes Visions of Blood quite nasty, in my opinion.
If you want to run a fearinducing invoker, I'd recommend multiclassing to assassin (Shadow Initiate, preq dex 13), and getting the paragon feat Nightmare Master which dazes all creatures hit by your fear attacks. Adding Psychic Lock and Power of the Earth makes Visions of Blood quite nasty, in my opinion.


Until the start of their next turn, which makes it considerably less nasty. I made the same mistake.

Being able to throw Fear onto Silent Malediction seems pretty nifty if one goes the Warlock route.

In addition, Malediction of Rigidity can be made practically unsaveable, I think.
-2 from the power itself
-2 from skull mask
-2 from cunning staff
-2 Divine Bolts, since MoR is a Minor Action
-1 from Covenant of Malediction
Then either reroll from Doomsayer or -2 from HoV/AoW.
 
Also, I think there is a Dragonmark from Eberron that causes a -2 penalty to saves against damage. 

There is another Warlock MC feat that would allow the use of a curse 1/encounter that would allow some use out of the level 12 Doomsayer Utility. But I agree that the powers for it basically suck. 




Terror Ichor (Lvl 9 consumable) can be used to stack another -2 on top of any Fear effect, making many nasty effects like Silent Malediction nearly unstoppable.
If it helps, the tiefling feat Hellfire Blood gives +1 to attack/damage for fire and fear powers.

Hey um. I don't actually play tieflings, but isn't it sort of a major limitation on this build that you need to get punched in the face to use Infernal Malediction at all? It rather limits the situations where you can set up the use of your dailies. 

I suppose you could just get a party member to punch you when you want to go to town, but that's a wasted action. 




It was my understanding that since it doesn't actually target anyone, one can actually use infernal wrath without having been hit. Granted, you don't get any benefit from the 'Effect,' but you would still benefit from the Infernal Malediction feat. Obviously, one might prefer to get the actual benefit as well.

Hey um. I don't actually play tieflings, but isn't it sort of a major limitation on this build that you need to get punched in the face to use Infernal Malediction at all? It rather limits the situations where you can set up the use of your dailies. 

I suppose you could just get a party member to punch you when you want to go to town, but that's a wasted action. 




It was my understanding that since it doesn't actually target anyone, one can actually use infernal wrath without having been hit. Granted, you don't get any benefit from the 'Effect,' but you would still benefit from the Infernal Malediction feat. Obviously, one might prefer to get the actual benefit as well.



This is my understanding as well. It's just a shame there aren't more Minor actions with good save-ends effects (understandable, as they would be quite powerful).
Quick question: Would the Torment Channel Divinity Feat/Power be of any use to this build, as it gives -2 to saving throws to each enemy in a burst 5? This also allows use of Power of Earth, which is said to make Visions of Blood rather deadly.

Or rather, is it just safer/better to use Tyranny or Sea? Tyranny does allow you to constantly use the -2, but Visions of Blood is rather nice when combined with Power of Earth.

And yes, I am focusing on evil deities here, so Melora is nixxed. Sorry.  
A concept build to work from A revenant: tiefling fear caster Invoker
build points, nearly all powers are fear and psychic, so we can do a lot with this.
we've MC'd to assassin and taken a lot of the nightmare feats
due to worshiping the traveller (Eberron specific) we are able to pick up secondary MC feat - Wizard which opens up a lot of Tiefling wizard feats, soem are very cool

legality of the build: only think i have to check is the Traveller PP extra mc feat.. but considering I you have to get bluff from a background feat, we could swap this for the ever present Windrise port (forgotten realm background)
oh and to top it all - Mirror can look like anyone - including you.... now thats scarry!

Mirror

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mirror, level 16
Revenant, Invoker, Traveler's Harlequin
Build: Malediction Invoker
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Malediction
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling
Background: Tiefling - Infernal Nightmares (Bluff class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 21, Dex 14, Int 13, Wis 21, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10.


AC: 30 Fort: 28 Reflex: 25 Will: 30
HP: 91 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +14, Intimidate +16, Bluff +13, Insight +18, Stealth +14, Arcana +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +14, Heal +13, History +9, Nature +13, Perception +13, Streetwise +8, Thievery +9, Athletics +6

FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Traveler's Harlequin: Arcane Initiate
Level 1: Shadow Initiate
Level 2: Nightmare Killer
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Hellfire Blood
Level 8: Nightmare Step
Level 10: Skill Power (retrained to Hellfire Arcanist at Level 11)
Level 11: Nightmare Master
Level 12: Psychic Lock
Level 14: Footsteps of Doom
Level 16: Superior Implement Training (Accurate rod)

POWERS
Arcane Initiate: Winged Horde
Invoker at-will 1: Visions of Blood
Invoker at-will 1: Divine Bolts
Skill Power: Prescient Defense
Invoker encounter 1: Whispers of Defeat
Invoker daily 1: Brilliant Beacon
Invoker utility 2: Altar of Confinement
Invoker encounter 3: Fires of Judgment
Invoker daily 5: Icon of Terror
Invoker utility 6: Patron's Blessing
Invoker encounter 7: Baleful Eye of Judgment
Invoker daily 9: Malediction of Rigidity
Invoker utility 10: Angelic Visage
Invoker encounter 13: Whispers of Defeat (replaces Whispers of Defeat)
Invoker daily 15: Fourfold Invocation of Doom (replaces Icon of Terror)
Invoker utility 16: Walk Between Worlds

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Talisman of Terror +4, Skull Mask (heroic tier), Accurate rod of Devilry +3, Summoned Crysteel Armor +4
RITUALS
Hand of Fate
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