Mr. Stupid - "The Inescapable" Grappler

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Mr. Stupid

Mr. Stupid - The Inescapable Grappler


Purpose: Our goal here is to make the ultimate grappler. Mr. Stupid was a 3ed barbarian/ex-monk Living Greyhawk character of mine that ran around grappling and implaling monsters on his spiked armor. This is an attempt to rebuild him using the 4e rules, which recently became viable with the Brawler Fighter option from MP2. In essence he is a:
Vampiric Half-Orc Mark of Shadow Garrote Specialist Fighter|Rogue/Assassin/Thuranni Shadow Killer.

Whew. We'll look at him at level 21, but he's very playable across all levels.

The Awesomeness: He always hits with his grab attacks (well, on a 2+) and monsters will have a very hard time escaping from his grabs. Most monsters won't escape even on a 20 - escape is not an attack, but a check, so 20s don't auto-succeed. So he's the perfect single-target defender - unlike other fighters that merely get a free attack if marked monsters go after their teammates, a grappler can make sure they always Respect the Mark (tm). We can also grab two guys at once, if we don't use a garrote.

Key Principle: We are a defender/controller. We don't worry about doing a lot of damage. If we hold the big boss in place and isolate him, someone else will come along and kill it for us. We're not going to win any DPR competitions, but we will win combats for our team.

Rules Muck: The brawler fighter recently introduced some neat new options along those lines, but are problematical due to rules issues. So if we want to make one we have to establish some sane clarifications on how the rules work:
1) If you are grabbing a guy, that hand counts as having "a hand free" for our brawler ability and for being able to make attacks against that guy. It's not "free" for any other purpose.
2) Garrotes. How can you ever grab with a two-handed weapon if grabbing requires hands free? We'll assume that hands that are holding a garrote are considered as being "hands free" for purposes of grabbing and such. Otherwise, garrotes would never work at all.
3) "Someone proficient with the garrote can use it to deal damage as part of a grab attack." We'll assume this just means a normal grab attack now deals 1d4+Str damage, not that we get to add damage every time we grab someone, since a grab attack is a specific thing.
4) It's an open question if attacks that grab (as opposed to "grab attacks") can grab Huge+ creatures. The grabbed condition itself is not ended if a size difference crops up, and the restriction is only on the target line of the grab attack itself, so we'll say that if we do somehow end up grabbing a Huge+ foe, we can sustain the grab against them.
5) There's other issues, like if your unarmed strikes count as an off-hand weapon, which we don't need to get into now. Just suffice it to say that CustServ should be getting a torrent of emails over the next few weeks as people start playing Brawlers. There's a LOT of rules problems with them.
6) We're assuming Hybrid Talent allows us to select Brawlers.

Stats: 24 Str / 24 Dex (Starting 18/18)

The Combinations:
1) The Optimized Grab. Brawler Fighter+Improved Grab+Garrote = +6/+10/+14 to grab attacks, meaning we'll usually hit on a 2+ with Grab Attacks, and because we use a garrote, we inflict 1d4+Str damage on a grab. If we need to boost our +to hit with grab attacks, we'll use a grasping weapon.
2) The Optimized Hold. Brawler Fighter + Masterwork Hide Armor + Inescapable Hold + Garrote + Great Fortitude + Epic Fortitude + Crushing Pin = They have to roll against our Fortitude to escape, they take damage when they try to escape, we have a huge Fort defense, and garrotes lower their escape roll. We also have various powers that reduce their chances to escape. We're going to be at an equivalent of Fort 45 or 47 at 21st level, which means that even Orcus, a +12 level monster, will have a seriously hard time escaping from our grab. Even at 1st level, monsters will be at around 10-15% on their chance to escape from us, unless they're trained in Acrobatics or Athletics. We can also take Crushing Grab at Epic to add another 5+Str damage when we sustain a grab. Also, a lot of our powers will improve our ability to hold enemies.
3) We need to optimize the ability to avoid dazes, stuns, forced movement, etc. Use Snap out of It, if you play in the RPGA. Otherwise, collect whatever you can. These things automatically end our grabs. There's a lot of options for reducing or eliminating forced movement, but not a lot that lets you negate dazes and stuns, so pick them up whenever you get a chance.
4) Dealing with Teleporting. Enemies teleporting out of your grab is bad. Mr. Stupid recommends throwing a Nightmare Saddle on it and riding with it when it teleports, but you might find that Forbiddance Bolts or a Dimensional Anchor or Dimensional Shackle works better.
5) Defending. With a +14 bonus to Grab attacks, we can grab, and then later on move, pretty much any enemy in the game. So our game is to grab a person (either via the fighter power that hits and then grabs a foe, letting us latch onto Gargantuan Orcus) and then drag them into a corner. The monster can then only swing at us (woot, defending!) while our friends fill the poor monster with arrows. We want to optimize our ability to reduce damage taken from the monster, so things like a Raparation Apparatus (if we want to go Warforged), Iron Body Ki Focus, and all those powers that reduce damage or grant us temps are all good. We also want to boost our defenses as much as possible, so things like Defensive Advantage are very good (since we gain CA on targets we garrote). If we have allies that like to flank, taking things like Daunting Challenge or any of the many feats which boost the defenses of allies are good.
6) Neutralizing our Mark. We will use Disheartening Strike every round with Underhanded Tactics to give our opponent a -4 to hit every round. With our high dex and hide armor (and Brawler bonus), we will be able to do quite well. We'll also hit a lot since the target will always grant CA, and garrotes are +3 weapons.
7) Our Paragon Path. Thuranni Shadow Killer seems like a weird choice for a Brawler. Things like Dreadnought seem like the more optimal path, since they make you tough enough to endure latching yourself onto the biggest guy in a fight. But I like the Shadow Killer for two reaons: 1) With an action point you get to go invisible for two rounds, which is a huge survivability boost against a combat where every enemy might conceivably be going after you and 2) Spectral Garrote is perfectly flavored for us, and it is ridiculously overpowered (Cover on a grab! Massive damage when we sustain a grab! With a minor action! And...) Once a round, we get to redirect an attack at us into a guy we have grabbed! Innocent Since it doesn't say otherwise, we can even use this to make our target beat on himself. =)

Little Mac: (An Alternative Grappler Build): Go minotaur instead of half-orc and take Beastblooded Minotaur to immbolize people two squares away. I have a sample build along those lines here. The Little Mac build there also goes into ways of preventing monsters from escaping via forced movement and teleportation, which is equally applicable here. In a nutshell, you want to use the various powers that say things like "and the monster cannot move away by any means" - this prevents his friends from pushing him out of the way or escaping via teleportation or whatever. There's also options on there from stopping them from forced movementing you.


Key Feats:
Feats are the key to this build. I'm not even going to worry too much about powers, since beyond the new Brawler at-wills, you can basically decide for yourself which powers you'd like. I've highlighted a couple that are ridiculously good, though, within this list.
  1. Garrote Training: -2 to escape because of garrote, and we gain CA when we sustain. The garrote deals damage when you grab.

  2. Garrote Swap Feats. Each of the Garrote Swap powers are pretty good. Novice, Expert, Specialist. I'd recommend swapping in both the expert and specialist ones, and the novice one if you feel like it. The expert one in particular is hilarious and powerful.

  3. Vampiric Heritage. We get a bonus encounter power (NOT a swap power, which is why heritage feats are great), which heals us by sucking blood from a grabbed enemy. Perfect match for us. It also opens up Dominating Gaze and some other nice feats and powers if you want to go down that road. It's also very flavorful playing a vampiric half-orc. (I think a vampiric warforged is even better, though - "They say the devil is a robot.")

  4. Mark of Shadow. Opens up Shadow Killer Paragon Path, and lets us be sneaky and stealth around in our hide armor. We also don't lose invisibility or Hidden when we miss. Also is very flavorful for a garrote user.

  5.  Shadow Initiate. You need to be from Windrise Ports to get the second MC feat. It also lets us burst a lil' bit of damage (2d6+12 on top of sneak attack) on the first round. MC Assassin swap feats and Killer in the Crowd are also nice options for us, and Black Garrote is the best grabbing daily 10 levels before we get Spectal Garrote. Retrain it out later.

  6. Daunting Challenge and similar feats for boosting allies' defenses are good if you have friends that like to come in and flank the target you're grappling.

  7. Improved Grab. 'Nuff said.

  8. Hybrid Talent. Naturally.

  9. Great Fortitude + Epic Fortitude = +2 + 4 = +6 to Fort. Stacks with our +2 to Fort from Brawler. Enemies ain't getting out because of...

  10. Inescapable Hold. Enemies can only roll against your Fort to escape a grab.

  11. Defensive Advantage. Since you'll always have CA against the target you garrote, this works out to a solid +2 to AC against your main target.

  12. Underhanded Tactics. Combines with Rattling attacks to give a -4 penalty to our target's attacks.

  13. Expertise. Sure.

  14. Warborn Fury - if we want to Riposte Strike instead of Disheartening Strike them, we can get a better AC bonus if both our attacks hit. We'll do more damage, but take a little bit more too.

  15. Hide Armor proficiency. Of course. Second Skin? For laters. Hide Spec? If we still have room.

  16. Alternative to Garrotes: We can use Vicious Advantage to gain CA on people we grab if a DM disallows garrotes from working (even though they should work).

Optional Feats:
Quick Draw (or take the Fast Hands skill power), but only if your DM is uppity over how open hands work with the Brawler.
Pin Down - why force your enemy to stay prone when you want your allies to be taking ranged attacks at him? But it is useful to give him an additional -2 to hit you.

Key Items:
  1. Masterwork Hide Armor (for the +1 or +2 Fort bonus)

  2. +Fort Belts (there's a couple different ones, take your pick) or the Belt of the Goliath

  3. Maybe a Cunning Garrote (-3 to saves against Strangler's Hold is nice), maybe something else.

  4. Grasping Javelins are outstanding ways for pulling enemies from two squares away and grabbing them. They also give us an even larger to hit bonus (up to +6) with grabbing, so they're essential.

  5. Boots of the Fencing Master are a free +1 to AC against our grabbed target.

  6. Armor of Dark Deeds (as the 1910 D&D Gamer points out) gives you permanent concealment.

Other Options:
You can take this build in a lot of different directions. |Barbarian is an outstanding possibility, with |Assassin being quite viable whenever they publish it, and |Warlord quite solid if you are worried about being hit a lot while grappling, and you want the two encounter heals (now available due to a rather powerful feat in MP2).
  1. Bloodknight is a great grab and self-healing oriented PP for those wanting to play up the vampire aspect. It has crazy good synergy with the Brawler, allowing you to Blood Drain as a free action when you grab, and recharging Blood Drain every time you kill someone.

  2. Giantslayer, solely because of this. Comedy gold when you have an opponent grabbed and you leap onto his neck - all attacks made at you split damage between you and him, and he's at an additional -2 to hit you.

  3. Hybrid or MC Barbarian is a great option due to Blood Bear Rage and Clawed Ancestor Rage. Both of these rages boost your grappling ability.

  4. Shock Trooper is better for a traditional Brawler, but Shocking Skewer and the ability to add +Dex to damage once per round is quite good. Not as good as Shadow Killer (who get to add 10 ongoing damage once per round), but it is LFR legal.

  5. |Warlord + White Raven is quite good as well. For this one, you'll want to be a Warforged with a Reparation Apparatus. You can use your heals twice an encounter with +7d6+2x"Number of Allies within 2 Squares" added to your surge. That's good clean fun right there. Especially if you have a Cincture of Vivacity. If you overheal even by 1 point, then you get an additional 2d6+2x"Number of Allies within 2 squares" temps. Even your Crushing Surge will give you +2d6+2xAllies in bonus temps every time you use it. Being able to pick up +17 temps every round? That's pretty good when you're the only target the main boss can hit.

Sample Combat:
We'll base this on the last RPGA game I was in. There's an arena, with a dire bear facing the party on the arena floor. There's 4 to 6 enemies up in the stands, shooting down at you, along with an enemy wizard leading the show. We're at 10th level at this point.

Round 1) We win initiative. (High dex is nice, right?) We want to keep the bear away from our squishy teammates. We walk up to it. Since it's not larger than Huge, we just make a grab attack on it (otherwise we'd need to use one of our abilities which give grabbed as a status effect). We're at +BAB+Str+6/+10/+14 (Heroic/Paragon/Epic) vs. Ref to hit, so we'll be hitting very reliably across our entire career. If we need to boost this further, we can whip out our grasping javelin, which adds its bonus to our grab attacks. However, we want to deal damage, I guess, so we'll use our garrote, which inflicts damage on a grab. The monster takes 1d4+Str.

Note: See The Mancatcher (in my .sig) on a build that is focused on using grasping polearms to negate enemies entirely. You can combine that build with this one for a super grappler.

We then action point, and drag it into a corner. The monster is stuck there. He bites at Mr. Stupid. We're AC 27 or 28 at this point, so he needs 13+ to hit us, so he's not going to get his own grapple off very often. He also can't escape from us by this point (it's possible he could escape on a 20 depending on which magic items we have on at this point).

Round 2-5) We hold the Dire Bear there while our allies run around putting down all the mooks. We take a fair bit of damage, and end up being grabbed ourselves, which is ironic. At some point, Mr. Stupid second winds and sustains the grab. An enemy shoots at us, but we pull the Dire Bear in front of us instead.

Round 6+) Our allies hover at a respectful distance and pepper the Dire Bear with arrows and cleric laser beams until it dies. We might need a heal somewhere along the way, but basically it's going to be averaging about 12 DPR to us, so with just our second wind we have enough HP to last for 8 rounds of an elite monster beating on us. And that's with us just standing there, doing nothing!

Incoming Damage: If we use Disheartening Strike with Undeadhanded Advantage, the bear gets -4 to hit. If we have Defensive Advantage (this is moving into Paragon territory), we get an always-on +2 to AC. In other words, if we hit the bear, it hits us only on a 19+, for 3DPR. If we miss, it hits us on a 15+, for 7.5. Given that we hit it 70-% of the time, its joint probability DPR is 4.35. We've got enough health on our own to last 25 rounds against an elite brute! And this is without popping off Unbreakable or any other endurance powers that defenders get.

Outgoing Damage: Garrotes count as light blades for rogue powers and sneak attack, which is nice, but might be sacrificing one die a round to debuff his attack by -2. Because we don't really care about damage. But here is the analysis anyway: 65% chance of normal hit, for 1d4+7+2d6 + 5% crit chance for 14+2d6 = 11.8 DPR. Which means that we'll kill the bear in 25 rounds also, using nothing but at-wills. If we pop off some encounters or dailies, we'll be able to drop an elite by ourselves!

Conclusion: We're a better defender than most defenders. Rather than beat on the bear while it walks over and scoops up the party wizard in its loving embrace (BAD BEAR! BAD BEAR!) instead we've been able to negate it entirely. Sure, we'll be taking a lot of hits, but this is exactly what a defender is supposed to do. We're tough enough to survive the undivided attentions of an elite, and have a high enough Fortitude that it'll never get out.

And so I leave you with this:

Mr. Stupid


Mr. Stupid, vampiric half-orc wrestler, was also a Drunken Master in 3rd Edition.
Brawler style is already listed in the current hybrid rules, just so you know. You can get rid of rule assumption 6.

Do you have a stash of weird-looking people in your basement?
Brawler style is already listed in the current hybrid rules, just so you know. You can get rid of rule assumption 6.

But not in the character builder or compendium right now. So I'll leave it in there till it updates.

Do you have a stash of weird-looking people in your basement?

You play D&D, too, right? =)
I am a fan of Mr. Stupid Cool
If he were a dragonborn, he would kill monsters with gin breath. 
An outsanding work as always. Thanks for the fun, playable builds ShakaUVM.
Vagrant player in Mexico City.
Shaka, kick ass build as usual.  It's good to see that grappling can easily work out as well as the other styles when done right!  I'll be bookmarking this one for future consulation just like did for the san diego supercharger.
1.) Why would the garrote let you deal +str mod damage on a grab, aside from the fact it lets you deal [w] on a grab attack.
2.) Why would slapping a nightmare saddle on an enemy prevent them from teleporting without you on them? Most enemies aren't mounts. Also, Forbiddence Bolts are ammo.
1.) Why would the garrote let you deal +str mod damage on a grab, aside from the fact it lets you deal [w] on a grab attack.

I'm assuming its a basic attack equivalent. Maybe it's just [w]. Either way, the damage is kind of minimal, and just frosting on the cake.

2.) Why would slapping a nightmare saddle on an enemy prevent them from teleporting without you on them? Most enemies aren't mounts. Also, Forbiddence Bolts are ammo.

Because Mr. Stupid considers all enemies to be mounts. Also, because it's funny. Also, it's a joke.

He once threw a war dog at an enemy in a tree, rolled a natural 20 with it. Worked out pretty well too, since the dog tripped the archer right out of the tree and into Mr. Stupid's arms.

Forbiddence Bolts can be shot by teammates at a teleporting target, or, arguably, stabbed into a grabbed foe.

Nice build Shaka. I was considering going with a brawler for an online game I'd like to join and I planned on going Hybrid with rogue as well. However, my reasons for doing so included Riposte Strike. Have you considered that at-will over Disheartening Strike?

I considered it of course because if your enemy is immobilized adjacent to you, it's an easy way to increase your damage output; he can only hit you and you get to hit him back for it.

If you have room for Disheartening Ambush, you can use it in conjunction with Underhanded Tactics to achieve the same results with Riposte Strike. Wouldn't the damage from the riposte make up for the loss of another sneak attack die?
Great build Shaka. While this won't be making encounters end much faster, the single-target lockdown capability it has achieved is downright impressive. I'll probably end up stealing some of the synergies from this build for my own, if that's ok with you.
Thats a neat build there Shaka. While I think grappling and grabbing is a dumb way to play a character its refreshing to see it that it is at least viable.

We also need to do something about your picture collection...


Do you have a stash of weird-looking people in your basement?

You play D&D, too, right? =)


+1 internets to you good sir.
Nice build Shaka. I was considering going with a brawler for an online game I'd like to join and I planned on going Hybrid with rogue as well. However, my reasons for doing so included Riposte Strike. Have you considered that at-will over Disheartening Strike?

I considered it of course because if your enemy is immobilized adjacent to you, it's an easy way to increase your damage output; he can only hit you and you get to hit him back for it.

If you have room for Disheartening Ambush, you can use it in conjunction with Underhanded Tactics to achieve the same results with Riposte Strike. Wouldn't the damage from the riposte make up for the loss of another sneak attack die?

Interesting, yeah, that's a very good insight. Riposte Strike becomes quite compelling when you can essentially force them to hit you, and there's that feat that gives them a -2 to hit. If you have the feat to spare, it's going to be better, and will boost our DPR a bit.

But like I said, I didn't really worry about being the DPR guy with this build, I didn't even take Weapon Focus or anything else, since the build is exceptionally feat starved as it is. (It was rather hard to establish a feat order when I was putting him together in the character builder.) I'll make a note of Riposte Strike in the main post though, since I do like Riposte so much.
Thats a neat build there Shaka. While I think grappling and grabbing is a dumb way to play a character

Well, he's called Mr. Stupid for a reason.

But actually, it's a pretty effective strategy. When you can walk up to an enemy lich and drag him into a dark closet, it becomes really hard for him to do his thing. For monsters that do things like AOE stuns, this can make the difference between a TPK and a cakewalk.

We also need to do something about your picture collection...

Heh, I actually spend quite a bit of time trying to find the perfect photos to illustrate my builds. =)

First off I want to say that I like this build. I think the brawler is a great build type and actually quite fun to play. Dealing damage is always nice, but there's a certain joy that comes with grabbing an enemy and then doing more or less anything you want with him/her/it. Drag it across the battlefield. Shove it off a cliff or into a fire (after forcefully dragging it over). Hell, with a generous DM and enough effort one could argue it's possible to hold an enemy with one had, climb using the other, and then dropping the bugger from whatever height you fancy.

Anyway, to my point: You use the garrote for this build and it's something I like. I assume you know though, and thus worked into your various calculations and what have you, that by using the garrote you lose the brawlers +1 to AC, +2 to fortitude, and wouldn't be able to use powers that require you to have a hand free because.... well... you don't.

It's a two-handed weapon and everything I mention requires that you have a free hand. You can't hold it in one hand, make an attack, and then suddenly have it in two hands to be considered to wield it as far as I can tell. The -2 enemies take to escape grabs evens out the loss of the +2 to fortitude I suppose, at least as far as escaping grabs go anyway.

Is the whole point of being a brawler simply to access brawler only feats? Because wielding the garrote seems to negate everything else the build would typically entail.

Maybe I'm missing something though, and if I am I'd like to be educated because I'm rather partial to the build otherwise. 

~Bizkit 


First off I want to say that I like this build. I think the brawler is a great build type and actually quite fun to play. Dealing damage is always nice, but there's a certain joy that comes with grabbing an enemy and then doing more or less anything you want with him/her/it. Drag it across the battlefield. Shove it off a cliff or into a fire (after forcefully dragging it over). Hell, with a generous DM and enough effort one could argue it's possible to hold an enemy with one had, climb using the other, and then dropping the bugger from whatever height you fancy.

Anyway, to my point: You use the garrote for this build and it's something I like. I assume you know though, and thus worked into your various calculations and what have you, that by using the garrote you lose the brawlers +1 to AC, +2 to fortitude, and wouldn't be able to use powers that require you to have a hand free because.... well... you don't.

It's a two-handed weapon and everything I mention requires that you have a free hand. You can't hold it in one hand, make an attack, and then suddenly have it in two hands to be considered to wield it as far as I can tell. The -2 enemies take to escape grabs evens out the loss of the +2 to fortitude I suppose, at least as far as escaping grabs go anyway.

Is the whole point of being a brawler simply to access brawler only feats? Because wielding the garrote seems to negate everything else the build would typically entail.

Maybe I'm missing something though, and if I am I'd like to be educated because I'm rather partial to the build otherwise. 

~Bizkit 


Look at the rules clarifications at the top... I'm assuming that grabbing someone counts as having your hands "free" for Brawler. Otherwise Brawlers will lose their Fort bonus whenever they enter a grapple, which is probably not what they intended.

Look at the rules clarifications at the top... I'm assuming that grabbing someone counts as having your hands "free" for Brawler. Otherwise Brawlers will lose their Fort bonus whenever they enter a grapple, which is probably not what they intended.

Yes, but your wielding a 2 handed weapon, so you don't get the bonus.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Look at the rules clarifications at the top... I'm assuming that grabbing someone counts as having your hands "free" for Brawler. Otherwise Brawlers will lose their Fort bonus whenever they enter a grapple, which is probably not what they intended.

Yes, but your wielding a 2 handed weapon, so you don't get the bonus.


Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.
Look at the rules clarifications at the top... I'm assuming that grabbing someone counts as having your hands "free" for Brawler. Otherwise Brawlers will lose their Fort bonus whenever they enter a grapple, which is probably not what they intended.

Yes, but your wielding a 2 handed weapon, so you don't get the bonus.


Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.

The AC + Fort bonus won't, you've don't have a hand free.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

"should" is a very fuzzy word.  It's not appealing to RAW.  It's not even appealing to RAI.  It's entirely possible that "garotte wielder" and "Brawling fighter" are intended as two mutually exclusive ways to exploit grappling (like druid grappling, which is also effective, and can't really be used effectively with brawler *or* garotte).  It's worth noting that there were effective garotte wielders (mostly rogues) prior to the introduction of the brawling fighter.

By fluff (which to me is about as strong an argument as "should"), the grappling fighter is all about grabbing people with his hands and throwing them around.  The garrotte wielder is all about wrapping thin wire around their necks.  These are two very different techniques.

Now, it's entirely possible that WoTC will release an errata/clarification that tells us that brawlers can use garrottes without sacrificing everything that makes them nifty - but I wouldn't necessarily bet on it.
Look at the rules clarifications at the top... I'm assuming that grabbing someone counts as having your hands "free" for Brawler. Otherwise Brawlers will lose their Fort bonus whenever they enter a grapple, which is probably not what they intended.

Yes, but your wielding a 2 handed weapon, so you don't get the bonus.


Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.

The AC + Fort bonus won't, you've don't have a hand free.

As I said, hands being used to grab should count as free for the purposes of the AC/Fort bonus.

I'd rather expect this to be errataed soon.


Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.

The AC + Fort bonus won't, you've don't have a hand free.

As I said, hands being used to grab should count as free for the purposes of the AC/Fort bonus.

I'd rather expect this to be errataed soon.
I really don't think, if your holding something in both hands (garrot) and then you grab someone, that your hands suddenly becomes free.

If you have a hand free, and grab someone, then yes, i agree that it still counts as having your hand free.  But your holding a garrot, thus no free hand.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.

The AC + Fort bonus won't, you've don't have a hand free.

As I said, hands being used to grab should count as free for the purposes of the AC/Fort bonus.

I'd rather expect this to be errataed soon.

I really don't think, if your holding something in both hands (garrot) and then you grab someone, that your hands suddenly becomes free.

If you have a hand free, and grab someone, then yes, i agree that it still counts as having your hand free.  But your holding a garrot, thus no free hand.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

also worth noting that most of your suggested fixes for teleportation don't actually work.
- Adding a saddle to an unwilling enemy is nontrivial, and requires free hands.  Also, by RAW, teleporting with him doesn't actually let you keep the grab
- by RAW, just stabbing him with the arrow doesn't work.  It's the sort of thing a DM might let you get away with once for the cool factor, but it's not going to work as an ongoing technique.
- I'm not sure about how dimensional shackles work, but I'd be willing to bet that they require free hands as well.  Both of yours will be taken up with the garrotte.

the only suggestion you offer that actually functions is having a friend shoot him - and that requires both an ally that uses ammo-based weapons and expenditure of consumable items, who is willing to spend a standard action or two setting things up for you.
Shaka--

As I've said before, I love the way you present your builds. Very reader-friendly, right down to often being truly entertaining.

I've read this one a couple times, and even seeing "Mr Stupid" on the thread list is still making me chuckle.

All thoughts of entertainment aside, this is a very creative build. While there may be quibbles here and there, the fact remains that Mr Stupid is quite capable of ruining someone's day, and will likely crack encounters more often than not.


Keep it up, Shaka.


post-script--

The visual of Mr Stupid throwing a saddle on a lich and riding/choking it is... well... you've just won a gold medal in internets, sir.
also worth noting that most of your suggested fixes for teleportation don't actually work.
- Adding a saddle to an unwilling enemy is nontrivial, and requires free hands.  Also, by RAW, teleporting with him doesn't actually let you keep the grab
- by RAW, just stabbing him with the arrow doesn't work.  It's the sort of thing a DM might let you get away with once for the cool factor, but it's not going to work as an ongoing technique.
- I'm not sure about how dimensional shackles work, but I'd be willing to bet that they require free hands as well.  Both of yours will be taken up with the garrotte.

You should look up the shackles. They're the serious solution, until late epic, when creatures might be able to roll to escape them. They're wondrous items, so they don't need a hand free to use.

And, note, we don't really need to be garrotting people, as I point out in the post. It will oftentimes be true that simply grabbing two people will be more optimal than gaining CA against one of them.

the only suggestion you offer that actually functions is having a friend shoot him - and that requires both an ally that uses ammo-based weapons and expenditure of consumable items, who is willing to spend a standard action or two setting things up for you.

If your DM is bad enough to not allow stabbing someone with a bolt, then yeah, teamwork it is.
Sure, except if you're grabbing someone with two hands, the bonus should still apply. We know that your hands count as being free when using a garrotte for purposes of grabbing.

The AC + Fort bonus won't, you've don't have a hand free.

As I said, hands being used to grab should count as free for the purposes of the AC/Fort bonus.

I'd rather expect this to be errataed soon.

I really don't think, if your holding something in both hands (garrot) and then you grab someone, that your hands suddenly becomes free.

I addressed all this in the rules clarifications at the top of the post. Garrotes have to count as "hands free" for grabbing or they won't work at all.
 Garrotes have to count as "hands free" for grabbing or they won't work at all.



No they don't. I read "if you’re proficient with the garrote, you can use it to deal the garrote’s weapon damage as part of a grab attack" as implying "you can make grab attacks while wielding a garrote" rather than "when wielding a garrote you are considered having one hand free for the purposes of feats, class features powers and making grab attacks." The latter is just wishful thinking.

I'm not sure it really matters though, because there's no rules that say you must continue to wield the garrote in order to maintain the grab (although there probably should be).
 Garrotes have to count as "hands free" for grabbing or they won't work at all.



No they don't. I read "if you’re proficient with the garrote, you can use it to deal the garrote’s weapon damage as part of a grab attack" as implying "you can make grab attacks while wielding a garrote" rather than "when wielding a garrote you are considered having one hand free for the purposes of feats, class features powers and making grab attacks." The latter is just wishful thinking.

I'm not sure it really matters though, because there's no rules that say you must continue to wield the garrote in order to maintain the grab (although there probably should be).

Grab attacks always require a hand free. A garrote is a two-handed weapon. You do not make grab attacks with garrrotes, instead you get to deal damage with it if you grab while wielding one.

The only possible way the rules work is if your hands count as being free (for purposes of grabbing) when using a garrotte.

Grab attacks always require a hand free. A garrote is a two-handed weapon. You do not make grab attacks with garrrotes, instead you get to deal damage with it if you grab while wielding one.

The only possible way the rules work is if your hands count as being free (for purposes of grabbing) when using a garrotte.

Isn't that general overriding specific? You're arguing that the general rule (grabbing requiring one hand) modifies the specific rule (garrotes allow you to deal damage with a grab) to imply all the benefits of having one hand free?

Honestly, you read it that way?
Grab attacks always require a hand free. A garrote is a two-handed weapon. You do not make grab attacks with garrrotes, instead you get to deal damage with it if you grab while wielding one.

The only possible way the rules work is if your hands count as being free (for purposes of grabbing) when using a garrotte.

Isn't that general overriding specific? You're arguing that the general rule (grabbing requiring one hand) modifies the specific rule (garrotes allow you to deal damage with a grab) to imply all the benefits of having one hand free?

Honestly, you read it that way?

I don't see any other way for it to work. Garrotes have to leave your "hands free" for grabbing.

As I said at the top of the post, Brawlers are currently broken and a rules mess. WOTC is going to have to errata them anyway, so it's kind of pointless to speculate for now what they'll come up with. Most logically, Brawlers would get the bonuses when they have weapon & hand free, or are grabbing someone.
Do you have a level-by-level break-down of what feats to take when to make this build work?  It sounds like a cool idea for an online game I'm applying for.
Grab attacks always require a hand free. A garrote is a two-handed weapon. You do not make grab attacks with garrrotes, instead you get to deal damage with it if you grab while wielding one.

The only possible way the rules work is if your hands count as being free (for purposes of grabbing) when using a garrotte.

Isn't that general overriding specific? You're arguing that the general rule (grabbing requiring one hand) modifies the specific rule (garrotes allow you to deal damage with a grab) to imply all the benefits of having one hand free?

Honestly, you read it that way?

I don't see any other way for it to work. Garrotes have to leave your "hands free" for grabbing.

As I said at the top of the post, Brawlers are currently broken and a rules mess. WOTC is going to have to errata them anyway, so it's kind of pointless to speculate for now what they'll come up with. Most logically, Brawlers would get the bonuses when they have weapon & hand free, or are grabbing someone.




Here's the other way for it to work... the RAW way.

  • Specific overrides general.

  • Generally speaking, you must have a hand free to perform a grab attack.

  • The garrote weapon specifically lets you make a grab when you're wielding it (as a two-handed weapon) and have no hands free.


I think the brawling/grappling builds are unwieldy and virtually unplayable currently. As an example, in addition to the myriad other things brought up in this and other threads, I for one wonder why you're required to be wielding a weapon in one hand as a brawler. Why would you not have both hands free? Yes, I understand that spiked gauntlets can be a work-around for this, but that's just what it is - a work around to get past a stupid restriction.

Here's the other way for it to work... the RAW way.

  • Specific overrides general.

  • Generally speaking, you must have a hand free to perform a grab attack.

  • The garrote weapon specifically lets you make a grab when you're wielding it (as a two-handed weapon) and have no hands free.


I think the brawling/grappling builds are unwieldy and virtually unplayable currently. As an example, in addition to the myriad other things brought up in this and other threads, I for one wonder why you're required to be wielding a weapon in one hand as a brawler. Why would you not have both hands free? Yes, I understand that spiked gauntlets can be a work-around for this, but that's just what it is - a work around to get past a stupid restriction.


Yes, you can use a garrot to grab someone, but you can't use any of the attacks that "require 1 hand free" while you have a garrot.  So the signiture brawler powers won't work, though some of the utilities will.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Here's the other way for it to work... the RAW way.

The garrote weapon specifically lets you make a grab when you're wielding it (as a two-handed weapon) and have no hands free.

No, there's no exception given for the garrote. Technically, by RAW, the item doesn't work at all. And technically, by the RAW, Brawlers lose their +1 to AC and +2 to Fort when grabbing someone.

That's why I gave my list of sane list of RAI rules at the top. Otherwise these features are insanely stupid.
Q: Was asked recently in a series of emails what I'd do if garrote wasn't allowed to work with Brawler Style (even though by all rights it should).

A: Replace it with Vicious Advantage, and you still get perma-CA
I'd like to add a must-have magic armor to the list.

Armor of Dark Deeds 
With having CA each turn, you'll always have concealment.  Can't hurt, yeah?

Plus, Subtle Garrot with Writhing Vine Spiked Gauntlets (for brawler attacks) in one hand and a Deep Impact Gauntlet in the other, have some nice synergy.

Just my 2 cents.

-S!

Good tip! I've included it into the build.

I'm fuzzy on something with Improved Grab. It gives you a +4 feat bonus to hit when using the grab action. However, isn't that something seperate from having Grab in the rider of your powers? I wouldn't get the +4 to grappling strike, would I?
I'm fuzzy on something with Improved Grab. It gives you a +4 feat bonus to hit when using the grab action. However, isn't that something seperate from having Grab in the rider of your powers? I wouldn't get the +4 to grappling strike, would I?


The way I read it was that the feat only working with the normal Grab action.

I would like to see a the feat to increase your Fortitude and Reflex defenses againt escape attempts when you're holding someone in a grab (or restrained).  As it stands, it's way too easy to escape someone's grasp; since you can choose what skill to roll against their weaker defense value.
I'm fuzzy on something with Improved Grab. It gives you a +4 feat bonus to hit when using the grab action. However, isn't that something seperate from having Grab in the rider of your powers? I wouldn't get the +4 to grappling strike, would I?


The way I read it was that the feat only working with the normal Grab action.

I would like to see a the feat to increase your Fortitude and Reflex defenses againt escape attempts when you're holding someone in a grab (or restrained).  As it stands, it's way too easy to escape someone's grasp; since you can choose what skill to roll against their weaker defense value.





The feat Inescapable Hold, I believe, somewhat addresses this, in that it forces all grab escape attempts to target your Fortitude.  Then you can just stack up on Fort like the venerable Mr. Stupid at the expense of your other defenses, and have very difficult-to-escape grabs.  Barring forced movement, teleportation, etc.  Ways around that too, though.  
One way to make garrotes unquestionably legal is to take Eternal Defender (or use Eternal Seeker to gain it's Oversized-esque feature) so you can wield the garotte in one hand.

Question: why are you adding Str to the garotte's grab damage?  I'm not reading that into it.

Bonus for Eternal Seeker: you can use it to grab Giant's Might as well.

Giant's Might + Large Garotte wielded in one hand is awesome, and it means you can unquestionably grab huge things.  Combine with Goliath's belt to unquestionably grab whatever you like.
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