Dungeon & Warcraft

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Despite what I said about not replying to you until you calm down and try to add to the discussion, I could not help myself, and so will reply anyway.

1) Motives are not irrelevent, they give you deeper understanding of any situation, just because you believe otherwise does not make it so.

2)What high horse are you talking about? The only horse I see is the dead one that we are beating.  In fact if any one has mounted a horse recently it is you, as you seem to have the power to declare an argument irrelevent because you think it is not a valild one despite being shown the validity that it holds.

3)I did not bring up dying grandmothers, some one else did and I just used their example for myself, it was used to show that some things hold more value than others, and while it is not a universal value, it is shared by enough people to make it a valid argument, and that argument if you have forgotten is that family > MMMORPG.  And so to go back to #1, your motive does matter, in this case the motive for changing game has importance, especially to those who are being directly affected.

4) I never declared that my words were the ultimate and final truth on anything.  What I have made clear though is that my words are my opinion.  I have not made any moral judgements, unless you think "that players is a jerk, and needs to get a life" is a moral judgement.

5) I stated my opinion that a 4th night of WoW is not a valid reason for moving game night, and it was others that grabbed a hold of that statement and ran with it.  They then declared WoW (along with any other activity) a valid excuse to reschedule game, and I argued against them holding my ground, it was not my intention to make this a WoW bashing thread but you all have made it very hard not to think ill of the game and how it may affect the lives of others.

Hope that clears things up a little bit for you, though I think that this thread is as dead as that horse you are riding, so none of this may even matter.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group?  I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?


Lets put it this way then, it is relative.  Dying grandma > MMORPG.  Tell me that is not the truth.  Family night > MMORPG, work > MMORPG, my hard earned free time > MMORPG.   I'd like to hear your idea of an actual reason that is < MMORPG.

edit And I never said they were scheduling their game wrong, I didnt even get close to saying anything of the sort.  I did point out though that the player in question had little right to ask them to reschedule their game.  I dont care what they do one way or the other, that is their decision.

You obviously have a bias against anything to do with MMO's and are unable and incapable of debating on this topic without said bias. In other words, you're wrong. You shouldn't be posting in this thread. You should just shut up and go away. A weekly schedule raid night is definitely a reason to see if the rest of a D&D group can re-schedule. If not, then the player would have to make a decision and choose one. On a sidenote, I would have gladly played D&D or something else other than going to my grandmother's funeral.

From the studies I have read dealing with the issue of "virtual relationships," the friendships formed online can be just as strong and meaningful as those formed offline. That the person in question values the online relationships is not so surprising to me.


I don't particularly value online relationships myself, but they are a great outlet for a wide variety of people who find it difficult in the "real world" to form relationships for whatever reason. I'd rather game with people face-to-face, but for some the online version is as good or better.




How did this thread not just end here? lol

Seriously, though, I play DDO. Because I get to play DDO more often than pnp(pencil and paper, referring to pencil and paper DnD, as opposed to DDO, or DnD Online.), I tend to prioritize pnp above ddo. However, if my guild has a run planned, especially if we have a large chunk of hours planned out where a high number of guildies will be on and we can all actually play together, albeit in a number of groups, or a raid planned, so as many as 14 people have all set aside time for this group activity, DDO comes first. If the only day it can be done is the regular dnd night of one of my games, I will absolutely ask my dnd group if we can reschedule. And if they give me crap for wanting to reschedule because of an MMO, I will tell them straight up that these people are also my friends, and that since fully guild raids don't get to happen often for us, being there for it is as important to me as being there for a party with IRL friends I don't see often. So far, the couple of times it's happened, my friends get it, just like they get that if a friend comes into town who'se been out of town for a long time, I will straight up ditch dnd if I have to in order to hang out with them.

it's not that my DDO friends are more important, it's just that the obligation is more urgent, in the sense that if I'm not there, I will miss an event that I don't get to take part in often, with people I really like spending time with, whereas if I miss the dnd game, I'll see them next week, or more likely in a few days. I'd prefer to miss neither, of course, which is why I'd ask the group more likely to be able to reschedule to do so.

and I have no trouble making friends in real life. I just also don't have any trouble making friends online. Whether they're in person, or on the internet, if they're friends, they're friends. Period. and loyalty to my friends and family is the single most important point on my moral compass.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords.  Using this logic you must never get out of the house.  You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in.  I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you.  And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group.  WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again.  You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends.  Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans.  There is a reason that the gamer stereotype is not a good one, and their social skills are one of the facets that give them such a bad name, and unfortunately it is often true.  Human to human interaction trumps human to machine to avatar to avatar to machine to human interaction any and every day.

you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL.  I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask.  These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen.  They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?  Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.



You are kind of a judgemental person, aren't you? You're also wrong, and clearly have zero understanding of how MMOs, or MMO players, work.
If someone is your friend, they are your friend. That's it. Whether you agree is irrelevant. If something is important to your friend, it should be important. If it matters to your friend, and you don't give to lumps about how he feels about it, you are being a d-bag, not your friend.

and are you really so out of it that you don't get that hanging out in game and joking around with your friends is just as valuable as hanging out on a couch or around a table joking with your friends?
What is the difference? That you can physically see them? Who cares? I've had people I know in "real life" stab me in the back, almost literally once, but luckily I was faster and saw it coming in time, who I thought were my friends. I've also had a guildy take a greyhound for 6 hours on a days notice because I had some crap going on that because of the specific circumstance I couldn't talk to my other friends about, and I needed someone to be there for me, in person, and help me blow off steam. Another guildy once saved a guildy's financial stability when the economy tanked and he got laid off at the worst possible time imaginable.

You simply don't know what you're talking about. At all.

EDIT: Ok, I'm sorry, i went slightly overboard there, although I still think the quoted post is way out of line, and very, very off base. I think I was partly responding to a reaction to all the times I've heard similar arguments, often in an even more negative tone.
And I fckng hate the generalizations about "nerds'" social lives, because none of my friends fit them, at all. We all play video games, role playing games, various board games like risk or things like it, munchkin, etc, and love the Big Three (star wars, star trek and lord of the rings). And yet, we have parties, each of us has many friends outside our direct group, I'm one of the very few members who are currently single, and I think only one of us was ever the awkward kid, and he got over it before he got out of highschool. Hell, I got a few jocks into gaming and star wars and such in high school, because we were friends and they were curious about the references they weren't getting.

Maybe it's because I'm younger. I don't know. It's like the whole "mom's basement" thing. I mean, does anyone here know anyone who fit that stereotype?
The one time we ever played in a friend's mom's basement, we were constantly cracking about the absurdity of it. The only reason it happened was that my friend's parent owned two houses, and he had moved back in with his parents a while back to save money while he went to school again for a new line of work, and then his parents decided that they were going to give him the house, so he didn't bother looking for a new place.
and yet, we felt rediculous, because we all assumed that only characters in movies/on tv actually play dnd in their mom's basement.

anyway, the fact is, playing MMOs, and making friends in that MMO, whether you also have RL friends on that list of MMO friends or not, does not mean that you have your priorities screwed up, or that you have no life, or any of that. My social life is quite active, thanks, as are the social lives of all but one friend I have who plays MMOs. And even his isn't bad, it just consists primarily of the very occassional party, his weekly dnd game at the hobby shop near his house, and that weird psuedo social life that takes place in a work enviroment.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

You're a natural mediator and diplomat, ya know that?





I know. I try so hard too. :-p

I've learned there's a right time and place to be civil. Then there are times where you must be the hammer.



Two things.
First, this is now a quote for one of my characters, so thanks for that. Dwarven Bards win. Always. :P

Second, have you seen Doctor Horrible's Sing Along Blog?

if not, go go go, and then come back and read the hammer bit again.

Epic win, my friend. Epic win.

someone posted a pic after you made that post.

just so funny.

@thread: Of course "real life" takes precedence over "game life". "game life" includes dnd.
That said, asking to reschedule "real life" for another aspect of "real life" is acceptable, as is asking to reschedule part of your "game life" for another part of your "game life."*
The relevant factors in the two later cases have nothing to do with what is being played. "I really feel that I need tuesdays to sit around the house and not deal with people in any way" is valid. "I also have this other gaming group, and there's much more of them with more diverse schedules than us, so it be a huge boon to me if we could reschedule our game night so I can do both." Is also valid. What game is being played, or what kind of game it is, is completely irrelevant.

*quotations exist to be annoying, and entertain me. That is all.

A couple years ago, I had three dnd games a month(I say a month because one was twice a month, and one was unpredictable, because we'd just as often choose to drink instead, while the last one was once a week) a weekly star wars game, a full time job and a few college night classes. I also had a girlfriend, who luckily played dice games, so she didn't get too pissy if I could only see her a few times a week sometimes, and was playing DDO. Luckily, DDO didn't interfere with other stuff because I'd been playing for so long after midnight that that was when nearly all my DDO friends were on.

It got crazy, and I got to where I just didn't have any time to myself unless I was doing course work, or riding the bus to and from school, which doesn't really count since you can't relax in the same way in public as you can alone.

I couldn't keep it up. So, I looked at each thing I had going on, crossed work and school off the list, since changing them wasn't really an option.(monday-friday work schedule with the occasional saturday, couldn't afford to work fewer days, which I would have if it was an option. I'd rather work four-five days than five-six days if money allowed) girlfriend was in the star wars game, and the unscheduled dnd game, and we had lunch at least a couple times a week between me getting off work at 3 and leaving for school, plus the nights she stayed over and stuff like that, so theoretically I could have further limited my time with her, but I was 23, which is probably all that needs to be said.

So, one of the dice game nights had to be the thing to change. One of them took place on sundays, in the early afternoon, allowing for hangovers and those who attended church. Not being a church-goer or terribly prone to bad hangovers, the day was otherwise wide open for me, and there were other days where I had time, including saturday afternoon. No big deal to be around people for a few hours more each saturday. I asked the group, and when they asked why, they couldn't believe my answer.

"I just need a day where I don't have to interact with anyone, in any way. I literally need a day where I only have to leave my room to use the bathroom and make food, and can just sit in bed and read a book, or whatever."

Some of them were insulted, or thought I was making lame excuses. Eventually I was able to explain it to them, but one of them just couldn't accept it, and was miffed when the group decided to play on saturday instead. It would mean that I'd miss a session once in a while for those weird saturday work days, but at least no one would have to completely leave that game, so the group decided, as a whole, that it was a better option.

My friend that was miffed, was in the wrong. Period. Why? because it was very important to me that I have that day for that activity. If saturday didn't work for him, that would have been fine. But being an ass about it because he didn't understand why it was important to me was selfish. 

Oddly enough he was completely understanding when I didn't make a couple games because my insomnia got bad and I hadn't slept at all the night before, so I was going to use whiskey as a sleeping pill.

Luckily, when he relayed that information to the rest of the group, the came over and stopped me from doing something incredibly stupid in my delious state. (i didn't tell them that I actually hadn't slept in almost three days. didn't want them to worry. :D)
That was an interesting day.


anyway, more random responses! yay!

right. whether or not talking to someone online is on the same level, or as satisfying, as talking to someone in person is entirely a matter of personal taste, preference, and perhaps simply what you are used to. The only time, when I just need someone to talk to, that the phone or voice chat won't do it, is if it's a girl I'm hoping to hook up with, a girl I'm already with, or I'm so immediately upset that I may in fact need to be restrained at some point. In the last case, I have friends that I only get to talk to on the phone or online who I'd rather have there than most of the friends who live in my town. Some of them have moved from here, and some I've been phone/internet friends with for damn near 10 years. Longer than all but 4 of my in person friends.
They are my friends. Anyone who doesn't think that friends online can be on the same level as in person friends simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

Never once did I say that D&D was real life.  What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work.  To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.




This, I think, is crucial to the entire debate.

Not just the OP, but everything everyone has been on about in this thread.

Fact: Members of a WoW player's guild also schedule their playing time (raid time especially) around their real life issues such as family, friends and work. Those considerations are taken into account when setting up raid days, or in the case of a guild who I recently made a new character to run with on monday nights in ddo, there is a static group, that always plays together. The same six people, leveling a single toon each, together.

In this case, it's a perma death guild, and thus a perma death group, which means that if your character dies, and can't be rezed inside the quest (ddo being all instanced questing), that character get's deleted.(some are death at all, unless the party has a cleric that can ressurect, some are less strict.) It's an intense playstyle, and it requires a great deal of care, skill, and cooperation. And if I don't show, the DM can't temp npc my character in a pinch, or bring in a dmpc who can pick locks and disable traps for the group, or anything like that. They either have to play other toons, or try to do quests without the trapmonkey/one of the highest dps toons in the group, which will increase the chances of someone dying, and having to make a new character, which if you've ever played an MMO, takes much longer than replacing a dnd character. You can't just make a new 6 level character in an MMO.

One of the people in group has four kids, none of whom are over 13, and a full time job. This is the only night he can count on getting to play DDO at all, and he had to compromise with his wife for that. Another is in college, and has one night that she isn't either working or in class/doing coursework. The rest of her dnd time is intermittent and sporadic.

Two others are in person friends who live near eachother, only one of which has internet at his house. The other guy has to ride his bike over there on a night that's good for both of them just to be able to use the internet. This works since we all can play on the same night, and DDO is free to play now, so the poor kids can still partake, but my dad, who has an almost 80 hour a week work schedule has a more malleable schedule than this group. 

If my old monday night dnd group reforms, I will absolutely ask them if we can reschedule, because it would be easier for them to change their schedule than my ddo friends to change theirs. if it were the other way around, I would ask the ddo players to change their night.

Because both groups include very close friends that I would do damn near anything for, and would do the same for me, aquaintences that are more friends of friends, really, and an activity I rather enjoy. The two groups are of roughly equal importance, and both groups have real world concerns involved in when they can schedule in game nights.

heh, what's really fun for me is that the other dps guy, who is also a secondary tank (dwarf twf ranger with dwarven axes and a few levels of fighter is a very powerful dps tank build in ddo) is 57 years old, and has one of his grandkids as a guildmate. He's actually one of the top officers in the guild. Apperently he's been doing stuff with computers since they still took up whole walls, and by some miracle has managed  to not fall behind in his knowledge. It's pretty awesome. Onery old bastard too. Always slipping in quippy little remarks when you least expect it, making me nose-spew dew on my damn screen. :D





any DDO players who are curious:

the line up:

Me, halfling-rogue5, fighter1, dps focused duel wielding build with trap skills that are good enough as long as I remember to use my clickies


above mentioned old guy with his awesome dwarf ranger of whirling death which cannot die.

the cleric, drow cleric, balanced between healing and fighting, but slightly leaning toward heals.

the bard, drow twf warchanter-ish bard. decent combat abillity, fair emergency heals and wand support, awesome buffs and crowd control. the player is amazing at micromanaging everything, so she really makes the team great. we regularly donate to her wand/scroll fund.

human paladin. straight up sword and board tank pally. pretty straight forward intimidation/you can't kill me tank. first two feats were both toughness. he rarely get's under three quarter health, between his defenses, and the heals being managed by other team members.

warforged wizard. heals himself with repair spells, good crowd controller, great blaster, good buffer, harder to kill than most wizards.

it's a solid group, and if it weren't permadeath, one person not making it wouldn't be much of an issue.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on.  See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments. 

That is not the issue that we are discussing.  It may be the issue that people have decided to focus on for some reason or another.  It may be related to the original thread topic but fails to touch on the subject.

To state that you can't do something, especailly something you have commited yourself too, beause you 'have' to raid (like some magic force is compelling you) even though you do this four days a week already is less then reasonable.  That is the issue, not how your stupid MMO works, because you could very well get online and start to find others to raid with if you wanted to setup raiding at a different time then your standard raids.



Uh-huh.  Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand.  Ok, that's not totally fair.  I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'.  So I'm done wasting my time. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Uh-huh.  Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand.  Ok, that's not totally fair.  I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'.  So I'm done wasting my time. 

Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.

But as far as the actual topic of the forum.  If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself.  To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me.  They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules.  So make a choice, D&D or your other activity.  It is as simple as that.

And on the issue of online friends.  Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends?  Probably not.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Uh-huh.  Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand.  Ok, that's not totally fair.  I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'.  So I'm done wasting my time. 

Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.

But as far as the actual topic of the forum.  If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself.  To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me.  They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules.  So make a choice, D&D or your other activity.  It is as simple as that.

And on the issue of online friends.  Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends?  Probably not.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.



You know what's even more stupid? That you are assuming that anyone counter to you plays an MMO.
It's also stupid that all you can think of is to insult everyone that has a point that is different than your own.

It's also incredibly stupid to be saying that everyone's getting their "panties in a twist" (by the way you might want to check the gender of various posters. Cause pretty much everyone that's opposed your overly biased hypocritical viewpoint isn't wearing panties).
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
You know what's even more stupid? That you are assuming that anyone counter to you plays an MMO.
It's also stupid that all you can think of is to insult everyone that has a point that is different than your own.

It's also incredibly stupid to be saying that everyone's getting their "panties in a twist" (by the way you might want to check the gender of various posters. Cause pretty much everyone that's opposed your overly biased hypocritical viewpoint isn't wearing panties).

Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.

And who says a guy can't wear panties?

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.

And who says a guy can't wear panties?




No, it hasn't been a secondary topic. Infact time and time again you've been quite willing to insult people that play them, and people that support people that play them. You've even gone out of your way to do so. So no, it's not a secondary item.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.

And who says a guy can't wear panties?




No, it hasn't been a secondary topic. Infact time and time again you've been quite willing to insult people that play them, and people that support people that play them. You've even gone out of your way to do so. So no, it's not a secondary item.

Per standard on these forums, people have pulled out and focused on things that I have said in support of my argument, ignoring the main argument and rallying against this secondary item.  I have then held my ground and defended my words.  But even when I have tried to steer the thread back on topic, people have ignored the main agrument and continued with with this one as you have so deftly done.  Not 3 posts ago I had tried to do this... with no success.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.



I don't play any MMOs.  So who's got somethin' in a bunch? ;)

Your opinion doesn't mean anything until you allow it to influence the way you read opposing viewpoints.  That is something you've demonstrated and it is part of the reason the discussion has evolved as it has.  A discussion requires an exchange of viewpoints - this is utterly impossible when one of the participants has erected barriers (intentionally or not) of bias to shut the other side out. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.


But as far as the actual topic of the forum.  If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself.  To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me.  They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules.  So make a choice, D&D or your other activity.  It is as simple as that.

And on the issue of online friends.  Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends?  Probably not.



With this you illustrate that not only are you not remotely interested in anything resembling a discussion (a curious position for one on a discussion forum) but that you have also completely failed - either through blind incomprehension of willful ignorance - to understand not just the substance of others' arguments but rather the simple intent of them. You do not simply disagree with people's arguments you do not even understand - or refuse to acknowledge - what they are arguing making further discussion on this topic pointless.

Good luck with your situation. Based on what you have posted here you are going to need it.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.



I don't play any MMOs.  So who's got somethin' in a bunch? ;)

Your opinion doesn't mean anything until you allow it to influence the way you read opposing viewpoints.  That is something you've demonstrated and it is part of the reason the discussion has evolved as it has.  A discussion requires an exchange of viewpoints - this is utterly impossible when one of the participants has erected barriers (intentionally or not) of bias to shut the other side out. 

I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends.  If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something.  Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect.  And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.

And on a side not, my panties are just fine.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
[I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends.  If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something.  Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect.  And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.

And on a side not, my panties are just fine.



Well, you've certainly painted a different picture of your opinion of MMOs.  One more thing to keep in mind: a game is just a game whether that game is D&D or WoW. 

To try and get this thing back on some sort of track that isn't doin' 120 toward a brick wall, I'll say this.  I think I said something like this earlier, but whatever.  The kid can ask that the group reschedule to accomodate his raiding.  That's perfectly within the realm of the okey-dokey.  Said kid cannot, however, expect them to actually change the game day to accomodate him.  That's firmly out of the realm of the okey-dokey.  If they say no, it's on the kid to decide which activity he'd rather participate in.  It's really as simple as that.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Good, stop wasting your time and mine.  Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch.  I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs?  If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.


But as far as the actual topic of the forum.  If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself.  To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me.  They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules.  So make a choice, D&D or your other activity.  It is as simple as that.

And on the issue of online friends.  Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends?  Probably not.



With this you illustrate that not only are you not remotely interested in anything resembling a discussion (a curious position for one on a discussion forum) but that you have also completely failed - either through blind incomprehension of willful ignorance - to understand not just the substance of others' arguments but rather the simple intent of them. You do not simply disagree with people's arguments you do not even understand - or refuse to acknowledge - what they are arguing making further discussion on this topic pointless.

Good luck with your situation. Based on what you have posted here you are going to need it.

The pot calls the kettle black.  I think that the post that I have added (shown above) is a perfectly reasonable post, and even conceeds the point people have made about onlie friends.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
[I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends.  If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something.  Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect.  And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.

And on a side not, my panties are just fine.



Well, you've certainly painted a different picture of your opinion of MMOs.  One more thing to keep in mind: a game is just a game whether that game is D&D or WoW. 

To try and get this thing back on some sort of track that isn't doin' 120 toward a brick wall, I'll say this.  I think I said something like this earlier, but whatever.  The kid can ask that the group reschedule to accomodate his raiding.  That's perfectly within the realm of the okey-dokey.  Said kid cannot, however, expect them to actually change the game day to accomodate him.  That's firmly out of the realm of the okey-dokey.  If they say no, it's on the kid to decide which activity he'd rather participate in.  It's really as simple as that.

This has been my point, though if I was that player I would not even ask, as I wouldn't want to have them rearrange their schedules for me like that.  Asking, in a way, is expecting them to make that change.  I would make the decision myself and tell them that I can or can not make game and go from there.  If they think it is appropriate they will offer up the change if not then they will stay put and hopefully extend the offer to rejoin if things change.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
This has been my point, though if I was that player I would not even ask, as I wouldn't want to have them rearrange their schedules for me like that.  Asking, in a way, is expecting them to make that change.  I would make the decision myself and tell them that I can or can not make game and go from there.  If they think it is appropriate they will offer up the change if not then they will stay put and hopefully extend the offer to rejoin if things change.



I don't think asking is expecting.  Hoping, maybe, but not necessarily expecting.  I guess it could be, but I'd rather not look at my friends like that.  Benefit of the doubt an' all that.  Personally, I wouldn't ask.  That's not how I roll.  I was actually late for D&D Sunday and - since I forgot to take my phone with me when I was out doin' what made me late - I wasn't able to call until right about when I was supposed to show up.  I called and told my DM that I was going to be up to 2 hrs late (though with our most recent start times, it was closer to 1 hr) and that was that.  They waited, but I certainly didn't expect them to.  But were a friend to call and ask if we could wait until they showed up, I'd be happy to do it.  That's just how I, personally, see it.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

This thread has certainly been educational, I'll say that at least.

This thread has been closed by VCL request. 

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