Dungeon & Warcraft

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Excellent replies all around, though try to remember to use your indoor voices. Else Ma {Webster} might decide it's time to bring out the wooden-heart-spoon.jpg of love.

My blah

Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."



But if out of those 60 people, I have 5 friends like the ones I described, then I have more friends on my WoW raid then I do around the D&D table. At that point your whole argument kinda breaks down, doesn't it?

 It might be a game, but so is D&D. So the only reason that game A is important, but game B is not, is the fact that one is played on the computer?
Neither can be more "played at any time" (you can as easily argue "change guilds" as you can "change D&D groups"), both have an equal amount of social involvement, neither is more important to "real life". It's just that one is on the computer, and the other is not.

If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.  With D&D you can not do this unless you 1)can DM yourself or 2)have friends who are at your beck and call 24/7.  So there most certainly is a difference here.  There is also difference between friends online and friends in real life, I am not saying that one is better than the other (I prefer real), but there is a difference.  Online you dont have to experience the full 'effect', you get what they want to show you, you dont share a continous experience but an intermitten one.  In real life you are getting a fuller experience (wether that is good or bad is up to you), you see how they act, you spend time with them continously seeing things about them that would not be transfer via an online relationship, you can read body language and facial expression both important parts of human interaction and communication.  The experiences are different, and they offer different things, I see real life relationships as having the capacity for deeper more meaningful connections, but maybe that is just me.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Again, with raiding, you cannot hop on your computer and do it at any time.  It takes planning and working around RL schedules to get everyone together - exactly like D&D.  It's been said over and again, but apparently it bears repeating because it seems this simple message is being lost.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.


You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
This seems to be a point of contention for Baphogoat, though. Because D&D often revolves around "real people" sitting around a "real table", in a "real room" where they can all see, hear and interact with one another in the "real world", D&D is somehow more "real" then the digital realm of WoW.

WoW requires planning, time and scheduling in order to run efficiently. Just like trying to plan a day around D&D, scheduling conflicts come into play, and the "real world" cannot simply be put on hold because you want to play D&D {or WoW}. WoW is real people, playing a real game, with real time schedules, and requires real investment, as any D&D game would. Putting off D&D for WoW is a personal choice, and no less wrong or right then someone choosing to put off WoW for D&D.
If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.


You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?

Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game.  I'm sure at any given time you could find people to play with, I mean you already raid regularly with 60 people, what are the cahnces that soem of them are online at any given time?

Anyway, I am done arguing this point, I really dont care about the game or styles of play within the game. 

What I do care about is players that can't step away from their computers for one night to see friends.  I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.



However, I must point out, the only person making any kind of reference to "blowing friends off for WoW", is you. Nobody else shares this sentiment {that I have read anyway}, aside from you injecting it into your debate in order to somehow justify your own unique POV. Just playing Devil's Advocate here mind you.
Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game. 



When the point of playing the game (for this person at this time) is raiding, it makes a pretty big difference whether you can actually raid or not.  That's like someone saying they want to watch the Superbowl with their pals can just watch TV any time they like.  While true, it entirely misses the point. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.


You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?

Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game.


By the same logic, your friends not being around doesn't stop you from playing D&D.  You can open up the books and have a fun little game with yourself whenever you want.

I'm really not sure why you don't see this... if you play WoW for groups, then you can't play it "any time", because you have to get everyone together, just like a D&D game.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.



However, I must point out, the only person making any kind of reference to "blowing friends off for WoW", is you. Nobody else shares this sentiment {that I have read anyway}, aside from you injecting it into your debate in order to somehow justify your own unique POV. Just playing Devil's Advocate here mind you.


The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW.  Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves.  Especially if you have made that commitment to them.  "He is commited to raiding too" I hear people saying, well one commitment was made before the other one, so he should not have commited to something that he was not going to do.  It is obvious that WoW is more important to him (very much so by knowing that he plays it FOUR NIGHTS A WEEK) so he should have not commited to a game night if he knew he was going to be raiding, or he should not have commited to the extra raids if he knew he was suppose to be gaming.  Either way he is blowing his game group off, and not doing it in a very respectful manner, and then on top of that asking them to change nights.  If these guys are raiding 4 nights a week already it seems like it would be easy to convince them (or some of them) to add an additional night so he could raid more.  Plus how hard is it to get people to walk 5 feet and get on there computer?  Not nearly as hard as getting people to get their books, go to their cars, drive to someone's house (about 20 minute drive for me), setup the game table, play and then have to make it back home to get a good nights sleep so they can work the next morning.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
It's not a simple matter of walking a few feet to your computer.  More often than not, you're talkin' different friggin' time zones.  Plenty common as well, you're talkin' different friggin' countries.  I think you need to play an MMO so that you can get a proper appreciation of what this stuff entails.  As it stands, you have demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what's involved - even though plenty of people here have done their best to educate you.  It looks like you let your bias cloud your mind so much that even repeated explanations simply vanish for you.  Instead of making stuff up and assuming how easy things are, why not take a look at what the people that have/do play MMOs are telling you?  Who knows, you may even learn something.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

The problem:  There is only so much time in the week.

The Solution:  Find a day in which everyone can play.

The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.

The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D. 

A Man/Woman of logic!



Exactly. Find a day. A day which can mesh. That requiers asking. Asking if there is a diffrent day they could scheduel it on. If their is, great, if there is not, then they choose. Basically what everyone but you has been saying since the thread started.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW.  Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves. 


Yes, but you did not say "he", you said "I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off." Your comment was made directly towards people here who disagree with you.

The basically problem is that all of your claims about WoW, MMOs and those who play them is that they are simply not true. You have chosen a baseless stance and are acting on that, rudely and aggressively.

I want to ask you an sincere question, though I suspect you will not give an honest response: do you really believe all the utter nonsense you are spouting about WoW and WoW players or are you hurt that you seem to be losing a friend?
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
It's not a simple matter of walking a few feet to your computer.  More often than not, you're talkin' different friggin' time zones.  Plenty common as well, you're talkin' different friggin' countries.  I think you need to play an MMO so that you can get a proper appreciation of what this stuff entails.  As it stands, you have demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what's involved - even though plenty of people here have done their best to educate you.  It looks like you let your bias cloud your mind so much that even repeated explanations simply vanish for you.  Instead of making stuff up and assuming how easy things are, why not take a look at what the people that have/do play MMOs are telling you?  Who knows, you may even learn something.


I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on.  See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments. 

That is not the issue that we are discussing.  It may be the issue that people have decided to focus on for some reason or another.  It may be related to the original thread topic but fails to touch on the subject.

To state that you can't do something, especailly something you have commited yourself too, beause you 'have' to raid (like some magic force is compelling you) even though you do this four days a week already is less then reasonable.  That is the issue, not how your stupid MMO works, because you could very well get online and start to find others to raid with if you wanted to setup raiding at a different time then your standard raids.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?

If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?

The reason why they need to change game night is very important, and should be taken into account. 



Want. Not need. No one ever needs to change game night. If I wish to jerk off to pictures of goats on mondays, my business. Nothing wrong in asking if it would be okay to play on a diffrent night than monday. If noone else wants to play on a diffrent night, I need to either stop participating in the game, or bring the goats with me.

Asking is not demanding. Changing game day is not rescheduling your life, unless D&D is your life. Demanding anything about game night, (aside from the general demands that are implicit in any gathering, such as lawfull behavior) is ridiculous. Demanding that we have naked jello wrestling on game night is inapropriate. Asking if we can have naked jello wrestling on game night is not (well, mabey a little. Just don't make a habbit of it.)
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious

Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?

If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?




No, you do not need any reason to consider rescheduling. To actually rescheduel, well, thats a simple group vote. If the group playes on monday, and 4 of the 5 members want to play on tuesday because they like to get drunk and vomit on ducks monday evenings, but the odd man out cannot because he has to take care of his dieing grandmother, then the guy with the dieing grandmother is out of luck.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW.  Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves. 


Yes, but you did not say "he", you said "I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off." Your comment was made directly towards people here who disagree with you.

The basically problem is that all of your claims about WoW, MMOs and those who play them is that they are simply not true. You have chosen a baseless stance and are acting on that, rudely and aggressively.

I want to ask you an sincere question, though I suspect you will not give an honest response: do you really believe all the utter nonsense you are spouting about WoW and WoW players or are you hurt that you seem to be losing a friend?


And what utter nonsense would that be? That this player needs to get a life outside of an MMORPG?  Or that he should treat his non-online friends with a little respect, maybe the respect that he seems to show to his online friends?  Or that he should stick to his commitments and not expect people to bend to his schedule because he wants to play a game 4 nights a week instead of 3?  Sounds like utter nonsense to me, how dare I suggest that someone respect other people's time and not ask them to rearrange their time off that they spend with family and friends so he can play a game that frankly (in my opinion, obviously) he plays to much of.

I'm not sorry if I offend you, because I dont see how my opinion on the matter would offend anyone.  Who cares if I think MMORPGs are utter nonsense, to use Boraxe's term, and a complete waste of time and money?  That I think that does not really matter if you think otherwise, because it is my opinion, and I am entitled to it. 

Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry.  These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?

If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?




No, you do not need any reason to consider rescheduling. To actually rescheduel, well, thats a simple group vote. If the group playes on monday, and 4 of the 5 members want to play on tuesday because they like to get drunk and vomit on ducks monday evenings, but the odd man out cannot because he has to take care of his dieing grandmother, then the guy with the dieing grandmother is out of luck.


This is backwards thinking.  If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck.  Or you put it a vote, and switch game night.  Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in?  Wrong and illogical.

Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry.  These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.



Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry.  These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.



Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.


There is if you consider the actions of the player up until now.  If you totally disregard the reality of the situation and analyze it from within a vacuum, sure its fine, but they are not in a vacumm and there is past history, this needs to be taken into account.  And by all accounts the player is in the wrong, with or with out the MMORPG.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
This is backwards thinking.  If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck.  Or you put it a vote, and switch game night.  Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in?  Wrong and illogical.

Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason



Not at all. How good or bad a reason is, and how important it is to any particular person, is subjective. Each person will, obviously, weigh the merrits of the other peoples obligations as they will, and that will influence how they vote. Most likely their own obligations will take precesedence in their decision. Not illogical at all. The group made a decision for the group based upon the feelings and thoughts of the members of the group.

Favoring your own opinion is well and good. Expecting all others to bow down to your opinion in spite of their own, for no other reason than it is your opinion, is tyranny. Tyranny is typically held to be a bad thing. It is up to the group to decide if they want to change the game night for one of its members, not any one members right to demand such a change, or any third parties business to dictate what reasons are or are not acceptable causes to initate such a conversation.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry.  These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.



Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.


There is if you consider the actions of the player up until now.  If you totally disregard the reality of the situation and analyze it from within a vacuum, sure its fine, but they are not in a vacumm and there is past history, this needs to be taken into account.  And by all accounts the player is in the wrong, with or with out the MMORPG.



I'm not debating the "situation". I'm debating the merit of a particular stance, the reasonableness of a statment. This statment: "Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness."

Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with this statment. Not untill you factor in the notion that, to the person making the statment, 'rearrange ALL of their schedules' is synonomous with 'play a game on a diffrent night'.  "Asking them to rearrange the night on which they play a game because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness." is the sentiment I am arguing aginst.

As for wether or not that particular player was being a douche, or wether or not the group in question is likely to acquiesce, is not what I am discussing. If that is what you wish to discuss then:
A) The player is in the wrong. He should have asked to move the night from the begining instead of causing repeated problems and dragging the situation out unnecessarily.
B) I would not agree to move the game unless there was another night that was atleast as convienent for me as the current night, not so he could play wow. If he had a more serious reason I would be willing to accept greater hardship for his bennifit, in relative proportion to the merit of his reason and our level of friendship. I would expect the other party members to do the same when deciding their stance on changing game night.


I still see no wrong doing in asking. The players wrong doing was, as far as I can see, in waiting so long to ask as he did.

(Note: I still havnt read that other thread, this is just going on what I have heard of the situation in this thread.)
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on.  See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments.


... so, exactly what you think is so vastly inappropriate to ask of a D&D group, is what you should ask of a WoW group?
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]

I'm not debating the "situation". I'm debating the merit of a particular stance, the reasonableness of a statment. This statment: "Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness."

Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with this statment. Not untill you factor in the notion that, to the person making the statment, 'rearrange ALL of their schedules' is synonomous with 'play a game on a diffrent night'.  "Asking them to rearrange the night on which they play a game because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness." is the sentiment I am arguing aginst.

As for wether or not that particular player was being a douche, or wether or not the group in question is likely to acquiesce, is not what I am discussing. If that is what you wish to discuss then:
A) The player is in the wrong. He should have asked to move the night from the begining instead of causing repeated problems and dragging the situation out unnecessarily.
B) I would not agree to move the game unless there was another night that was atleast as convienent for me as the current night, not so he could play wow. If he had a more serious reason I would be willing to accept greater hardship for his bennifit, in relative proportion to the merit of his reason and our level of friendship. I would expect the other party members to do the same when deciding their stance on changing game night.


I still see no wrong doing in asking. The players wrong doing was, as far as I can see, in waiting so long to ask as he did.

(Note: I still havnt read that other thread, this is just going on what I have heard of the situation in this thread.)

Well then, we appear to be in complete agreement.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
This is backwards thinking.  If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck.  Or you put it a vote, and switch game night.  Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in?  Wrong and illogical.

Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason


Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group?  I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group?  I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?


Lets put it this way then, it is relative.  Dying grandma > MMORPG.  Tell me that is not the truth.  Family night > MMORPG, work > MMORPG, my hard earned free time > MMORPG.   I'd like to hear your idea of an actual reason that is < MMORPG.

edit And I never said they were scheduling their game wrong, I didnt even get close to saying anything of the sort.  I did point out though that the player in question had little right to ask them to reschedule their game.  I dont care what they do one way or the other, that is their decision.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets put it this way then, it is relative.


It is not relative.  You don't get to walk up to another group and say "you're doing it wrong".  You don't get to tell them "your priorities are wrong".  You don't get to do that.  That group can, however it likes, decide how to manage itself.  That is for that group, and that group alone, to decide.  You don't GET a vote.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Lets put it this way then, it is relative.


It is not relative.  You don't get to walk up to another group and say "you're doing it wrong".  You don't get to tell them "your priorities are wrong".  You don't get to do that.  That group can, however it likes, decide how to manage itself.  That is for that group, and that group alone, to decide.  You don't GET a vote.


I do if they are reading this and agree with me. 

If you ask the player in question he might think MMORPGs are the better reason, but ask the group and they might think that family is the better reason.  So, in this case it is relative (depending for significance upon something else).  In this case the significance of MMORPGs is relative to what the group thinks is more important, family or MMORPGs.  I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I do if they are reading this and agree with me.


Nope, sorry, still wrong.  No matter if they agree or disagree with you, it's not your call to make.

I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.


I don't know either, but that's not the point, and it will continue to not be the point regardless of what contrived stories you can fabricate.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
I do if they are reading this and agree with me.


Nope, sorry, still wrong.  No matter if they agree or disagree with you, it's not your call to make.

I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.


I don't know either, but that's not the point, and it will continue to not be the point regardless of what contrived stories you can fabricate.




Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on? I do not recall him trying to go to their game and force them to hold their session on the previously agreed schedule, nor stop them from discussing it.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?


No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them.  However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?


No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them.  However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.



What is or is not appropriate is, of course, his call to make. What call they make, and what they do about it, is not. He has not stepped on anyones rights by blathering about what he thinks they should/should have done. Especially seeing as someone asked.

In other words, he can deem it inappropriate to him. And he can argue for its inappropriateness. However he may not inforce that argument in any way, the group may only do that for themselves.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
You're quibbling words, and I'm not interested.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?


No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them.  However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.

So your agrument is that all arguments are invalid as we have no actual say in the outcome of the group in discussion?  Interesting but an idea that can be applied so widely as to make it an invalid statement itself.  The point of this discussion was not to enforce any thing on to anyone but to assess the situation and give our opinions.  To argue that all of this is for not because of the lack of power we hold in the final decision makes little sense, as it makes your arguemnt invalid as soon as you make it.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
You're quibbling words, and I'm not interested.



Not really, no. Your most recent line of argument is illogical and self contradictory. If he has no justification for deeming something inapropriate, you have no justification for deeming his actions inapropriate. Aside from his rude demeanor... or the factual innaccuracies... or, well, any direction that dosn't seem to be saying 'my opinion is that you have no right to voice your opinion'.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Yay for people not understanding me.

It's really quite simple.

He is in no position to be judgemental of another groups decision.  He said, flat-out, that one thing was more important then another.  He is not in the specified position (no one that we know of is, point-of-fact), so while he can give an opinion, he can not, as a matter of fact, say what is or is not good for that group.

This has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter, his neurosis about WoW, or anyone's fictional dying grandmother, and everything to do with scope of personal authority.  The situation is not in your scope, you don't get to say what's good or bad there.  You can give opinions, but you can not declare from on-high what is right or wrong, which he has done numerous times.

THAT is what I am saying.  When we are talking about YOUR group, THEN you can say what is right or wrong for YOUR group.  What you cannot do is say what is right or wrong for the group of anyone ELSE.  Opinions?  Yes.  Advice?  Sure.  Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach?  Bullshit.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach?  Bullshit.



QFT.
Yay for people not understanding me.

It's really quite simple.

He is in no position to be judgemental of another groups decision.  He said, flat-out, that one thing was more important then another.  He is not in the specified position (no one that we know of is, point-of-fact), so while he can give an opinion, he can not, as a matter of fact, say what is or is not good for that group.

This has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter, his neurosis about WoW, or anyone's fictional dying grandmother, and everything to do with scope of personal authority.  The situation is not in your scope, you don't get to say what's good or bad there.  You can give opinions, but you can not declare from on-high what is right or wrong, which he has done numerous times.

THAT is what I am saying.  When we are talking about YOUR group, THEN you can say what is right or wrong for YOUR group.  What you cannot do is say what is right or wrong for the group of anyone ELSE.  Opinions?  Yes.  Advice?  Sure.  Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach?  Bullshit.

Why even post on this thread?  You are not adding to the discussion in anyway by telling us this.  Because we already know that we can not make the decision for the group, that is obvious, but what we can do is give our opinions.  and that is exactly what is being done, and I dont care if you dont agree with me.  But if you do not agree with me please discuss the topic at hand, dont go on little rants about what you think about our opinions and the way we give them.  Once you start to calm down a little bit and begin to post meaningful things I will continue to respond to you, until then have a good weekend.

"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Why even post on this thread?


My motives are irrelevant.  But you seem to fail to grasp that motives can be irrelevant quite a bit, don't you?

You are not adding to the discussion in anyway by telling us this.


And you haven't added anything new to the discussion since your first got on your high-horse, yet you're still around.  Maybe I thought you were being a bit lonely and decided to visit?

Because we already know that we can not make the decision for the group, that is obvious, but what we can do is give our opinions.


So you say, but your actions play a different tune.

But if you do not agree with me please discuss the topic at hand, dont go on little rants about what you think about our opinions and the way we give them.  Once you start to calm down a little bit and begin to post meaningful things I will continue to respond to you, until then have a good weekend.


Been there, done that, got ignored.  Not like you've actually been discussing anything anyway, as you prefer preeching and sniping to actually discussing points and giving reality a consideration.

In short: you're a preechy preacher that preaches a lot, ignores reality when it doesn't suit your world-view, hands down moral judgements from on-high, and so-on.  There is no rational discussion going on here, and hasn't since your first post.  You've been using this as a personal platform to espouse your ideas, blatantly disregarding everything that might question your judgement.  This is not now, has not been, and (I have zero faith that it) will not be, a discussion.

But hey, if you'd rather continue talking about the evils of WoW and how it's stealing people away from their dying grandmothers, feel free.  Just don't expect me to take you seriously.  I mean, I did at one time, but you kinda gave me reason to give up on that.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
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