Dungeon & Warcraft

183 posts / 0 new
Last post
I've learned there's a right time and place to be civil. Then there are times where you must be the hammer.



captain-hammer11.jpg

Wait, I thought you where Captain Micha.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
NO FROG NINJA!

How did you find out!
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
aw man, I hate it when things get funny.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Now all I can think of is "is this what pain feels like?" and "Get me someone maternal!  Waah!"
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Conversing with me is often painfull, I am told.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Conversing with me is often painfull, I am told.


Eh, only when you go pointlessly pedantic to the point where everyone knows exactly what is being said, but you're picking away at the nuances of word choice anyway for your own amusement.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]

I understand the fun of playing a video game, but there are things I would be willing to work around and things I would not.  And playing an MMO is not one of them.

Others seem to consider it on par with other life events, but I view it as little different than playing a single player game against the PC.  I would be no more or less understanding of someone wanting to schedule time to play Mario Bros or WoW or TOR which is to say very little.

That said, it really depends on your options I guess.  If you need that player enough that it makes or breaks playing your session to begin with, then you have to wait for them.  But if you can do it without them then I would.  I don't consider their "raid time" the same as their work schedule, school, dating, family, church, etc.  (IOW, things I would be willing to reschedule and compromise for).

When you aren't willing to consider changing the schedule because another player has something come up that you do not agree with, that reeks of selfishness.

Does it really matter if I changed my work schedule, had my sports practice shifted, want to spend the day with my partner, or whatever? The only thing that should matter is that there are two things important to me at the same time, and that I want to discuss with the people involved in both of these groups which is easier to move to another time (if possible), or if worst comes to worst, which of the two activities I'll have to cancel. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.

But I think the issue that many people have is that this player is playing 4 nights a week of WoW. From the other thread, it appeared that the WoW player originally stated that he wanted to raid on Mondays, Wednesday, and Thursdays. Then the group tried to reschedule and were going to play on Tuesday. But then the WoW player said he was going to raid Monday through Thursday. And then the OP stated that it was very difficult to play on a weekend since they have obligations to family.

So I can definitely be upset that a player is choosing to play WoW four nights a week and can't make room for one night of DnD. At least to me, its not that he's playing WoW, its that he needs to play for four nights a week.


If he wants to play WoW, that's fine, but its a hard sell to give up a weekend just because someone wants to play WoW four times during the week.


(Also the actions described in the other thread seemed very selfish by the WoW player.)

When you aren't willing to consider changing the schedule because another player has something come up that you do not agree with, that reeks of selfishness.

Does it really matter if I changed my work schedule, had my sports practice shifted, want to spend the day with my partner, or whatever? The only thing that should matter is that there are two things important to me at the same time, and that I want to discuss with the people involved in both of these groups which is easier to move to another time (if possible), or if worst comes to worst, which of the two activities I'll have to cancel. 

Since you can play a video game at any time this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for, especially if they are already on a set schedule.  The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous.  It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever.  I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not.  And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?

"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me."  According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.

You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Since you can play a video game at any time this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for, especially if they are already on a set schedule.  The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous.  It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever.  I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not.  And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?

"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me."  According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.

You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.



Can we reschedule to another night? Really that's demanding and selfish?

Son I think you should reexamine your priorities. D&D is not Serious Business.  Let's put this in perspective shall we?

Seriously. Let's put your stance into perspective. You all get together once a week to play Halo 3, drink and either watch a movie and or play D&D. Someone in this group begins to have another social obligation (wow) and asks if they can maybe move Game Night. Everyone's schedule is pretty flexible during the week.

And your reaction is. "HOW DARE YOU YOU **** TARD!"

You see the thing is contrary to your little frothing lunatic fantasy, Wow is not a single player experience. Especially when Raiding. Just because the other players aren't present in the same room doesn't mean you are not gaming with other people. Those other people could easiily be friends as well, who could very likely end up better friends than some of the people you know in real life. It's also not YOUR personal situation. Infact the situation is quite explained in the original thread and it turned out that guess what the group could infact reschedule without causing any major issues. (and I doubt your schedule is that filled up that you could only possibly game ONE set day a week that can't be changed period)

WoW is the equivalent to going out clubbing or hanging out with another group of friends, versus that local Game Night.

The only thing sad here is that someone can take their recreation activity so seriously that they feel they can mock, and put down someone else's choice of recreation activities.  It's also this attitude which has been slowly strangling the life out of the P&PRPG market. We aren't getting new blood because frankly we have alot of nutjobs in this hobby that think D&D/insert RPG here should automatically come first and foremost hobbywise.

Later in the original thread it comes out that the WoW guy, started raiding on Tuesdays too. This player might very well need an Intervention at this point, that or he's not really playing all that time and is just using Wow as an excuse to get away from someone at the table for a while because that player or dm is acting in a way this person does not find as enjoyable to be around as his guildmates, tv, or SINGLE PLAYER games or heck boardgames with another batch of friends.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
Cpt_Micha, I think the problem isn't WoW v DnD. Its four nights of WoW instead of one night of DnD. In the other thread, it was stated that the WoW player wanted to move it to a weekend but everyone else had family obligations.

I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player. Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?

I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.
Cpt_Micha, I think the problem isn't WoW v DnD. Its four nights of WoW instead of one night of DnD. In the other thread, it was stated that the WoW player wanted to move it to a weekend but everyone else had family obligations.

I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player. Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?

I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.



I don't think he's really raiding every night myself. I think he's just using it as an excuse to get away for a while.

Announcing that he's going to start raiding on the day that the group just happened to reschedule to, is pretty douchy there I won't argue. But I also think it's a hint from him that there is one or more persons he just doesn't feel like gaming with at that table, but is too nice to say anything about it.

I play starcraft typically at night, or online rp. I even do Iccup (basically it's starcraft's professional ladder system. Rookies and suck and fails stay at the bottom  like me :-p) but I'll game with my friends at the drop of a hat. on Raid night, when it comes to my group I understand if someone can't make it. Do you know why? Cause a Raid is like a Clan War, it's a social obligation. If I'm in a Clan War or clan tournament that night, I can't make it to Game Night, because frankly I'm abandoning my Team if I go to Game Night instead of participate. So I can empathize with the position very well. Heck I've had people in my group who were not only Guild Officers but also among the best players on their server (to the point they could have joined a Pro Team and got paid to play). I can understand if someone can't make it, even for three nights a week.

The other reason of course is Game Night is just that, Game Night. It's not more important than life itself, it's a hobby and time killed with my face to face friends.

Hell given our fluxuating schedules in my group, We quite often have to change Game Night as it is. There are weeks where none of us are available for the evening. Raid night taking priority is understandable. I'm not going to kick you away from my table just because you couldn't make it to Game Night. Raids, Clan wars, Clan tournaments etc those? Those hold considerable more social ramifications for repeatedly missing. Such as your Raid Spot, spot in the Clan War, tournament or in some cases loss of your position in the Guild or Clan alltogether.

I'm not going to stop being your friend just cause you can't make it to Game Nights.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
Since you can play a video game at any time


You can no more partake of a WoW raid "at any time" than you can a D&D game. The limitations of timing and getting a group together are largely identical, with teh added difficulty that a WoW raid involves far more people and schedules.

this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for,


In your biased opinion.

especially if they are already on a set schedule.


His raiding is also on a set schedule.

The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous. 


The only ridiculous thing here is that you apparently consider a D&D game to be your life.

It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever.

 
Nonsense.

I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not. 


In this you are simply wrong. There is no other way to put it.

And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?


Why do you feel teh need to use loaded language like "excuse"

"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me."  According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.


This is, by a wide margin, the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months. Given the plethora of nonsense spewed here I hope you appreciate the full weight of this statement.

You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.


In what way to you believe insults and personal attacks bolster your position?

And FYI, D&D is not "family, work and real life", it is also a game.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
Cpt_Micha, I think the problem isn't WoW v DnD. Its four nights of WoW instead of one night of DnD. In the other thread, it was stated that the WoW player wanted to move it to a weekend but everyone else had family obligations.


Which means the answer to his request is clearly "Sorry, but no." There is nothing wrong with asking and his reasons for not being able to keep to the D&D schedule are immaterial.

I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player.


Why is it "douchey" to ask to reschedule the game night?

Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?


No, it's fine to do it as much as he wants. It's his choice. It is not a choice I would make but to deride the player for it is most certainly not fine. It is his time and his life and he can spend it how he pleases.

I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.


Why? What activities is it "acceptable" to do "four nights a week"? Why do you feel it is your right to dictate to others what are acceptable choices for them to make with the life and their free time?
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
I've created a Thread Monster. Seriously though, this has been an interesting thread; educational almost you might say. Anything I could have said, is said by people already, leaving me little to add. It's like a warm, fuzzy feeling you get sometimes.

... Like when I used to climb the rope in gym class.

{Cookie for anyone who gets the reference!}
The problem:  There is only so much time in the week.

The Solution:  Find a day in which everyone can play.

The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.

The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D. 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Boraxe,
Thank you for pointing out that I am wrong, I have seen the error of my ways and...wait nevermind, that didn't change anything whatsoever.

So now you are judging my want to play with myself every night and still have my D&D game fit within my master schedule. But I can't judge a MMORPG and the scheduling conflicts that creates?  Hypocrite.  and the argument I have put forward fits along the same lines as your and other's arguments that it does not matter what I am doing, if it is important to me others should consider it important enough to change their lives for.  that is exactly what you are saying and I disagree.

Also I like how tell me how personal attacks dont bolster your position right after having declared my argument "the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months." Double hypocrite.

Anyway, that is not the point, the point is that real life takes presidence, so reschduling around work or family issues is ok, reschduling around another player adding a 4th night of gaming does not fit the bill.  It is his choice if he wants to play another night of WoW, but the others have real things they need to fit in their lives and would like to keep their ONE night of gaming.  So their schedules do take presidence over the Wower's, simple logic and reasoning can get you there.  Real life = Important, Video games = not important.  the D&Ders are not asking anyone to reschdule anything around them, they had made a decision as a group on the best night for all of them to fit into their lives and to change that for a player that wants to go home and play a video game makes little sense.

and excuse is not a loaded term, nor is the word want. I

 do not consider D&D game to be my life, I play the game and I do not ask that anyone reschedul their lives around me and my gaming habits.  My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The problem:  There is only so much time in the week.

The Solution:  Find a day in which everyone can play.

The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.

The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D. 

A Man/Woman of logic!
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Obviously Herrozerro's way is the correct way.

But I'm still curious how "playing WoW with 60 other people you know and chat with all the time" is "playing a video game on your own"?
If you can explain how this way of thinking works, then I might actually follow your logic.

Right now, you seem to consider people you only talk to online as "not people". Is that you think about it? Because if it is, then I understand your point completely. (Of course I still disagree completely, but I'll never be able to convince you anyway if that's how you think about it)
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.

.  My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.



"Gay people are sad and pathetic sinning abominations against god.. it's not a personal attack it's merely my opinion"-anonymous.

Just wanted to put your post and opinion into proper context there.

Your opinion can be insulting without you having to single out a given individual.

And your opinion is insulting.

Futhermore, seriously? who in this thread is the one proclaiming D&D> all hobbies first and foremost? You have.  Now who in this thread said WoW is as important as work, family or friends? No one. Infact you made that position up in order to make your vitrolic rantings seem less silly.

D&D is as much a game as Wow or any other. Once again it's attitudes like this that are destroying the hobby.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
Obviously Herrozerro's way is the correct way.

But I'm still curious how "playing WoW with 60 other people you know and chat with all the time" is "playing a video game on your own"?
If you can explain how this way of thinking works, then I might actually follow your logic.

Right now, you seem to consider people you only talk to online as "not people". Is that you think about it? Because if it is, then I understand your point completely. (Of course I still disagree completely, but I'll never be able to convince you anyway if that's how you think about it)


Even if I have mentioned this in my arguments it really is neither here nor there.  the fact is that you are playing a game that can be played 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year, 10 years a decade, 10 decades a century, 10 centuries a millenium..etc..  There are no time contraints other than your other activities outside this game.  you might say "raiding only happens at these certain times and you have to be there or get kicked out of the guild or whatever may happen."  I think that if you really cared you could join another guild, or figure out a different raiding schedule in another matter.  If the game really demands 4 nights a week of your time, and you give it that, it should not be on the other people in your life to work around that, quite the opposite.  It really does not matter that there happens to be other people controlling the little digital people on your monitor, or that you can communicate with them in some fashion.  What matter is that you are demanding that others work around your scheduled video games, games that do not require others to play, this is a decision that you have made and others need not respect it or work around it.

and I dont agree that online friends are along the same levels as real life friends.  Sure some online friends may be real life friends or may become them, but that does not mean that the 60 people you raid with are as good of friends (or are even your friends) as the 6 people that you meet with and hangout with at other times.  Where are they when you need to move, or a family member dies, or you need someone to hangout with and talk with (talking over the internet is not even close to speaking with one another in person, so dont even go there.).  Maybe in our twisted little world people think they are their friends, but the fact is that these relationships do not hold the same meaning as an in person one, not to say that a meaningful relationship can not grow from this but for that to happen truly it would have to transition into a real life person to person relationship. 

On a side note, several of my group play MMORPGs but we do not have an issue, because they dont expect that we should be subject to their whim to play another game.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

.  My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.



"Gay people are sad and pathetic sinning abominations against god.. it's not a personal attack it's merely my opinion"-anonymous.

Just wanted to put your post and opinion into proper context there.

Your opinion can be insulting without you having to single out a given individual.

And your opinion is insulting.

Futhermore, seriously? who in this thread is the one proclaiming D&D> all hobbies first and foremost? You have.  Now who in this thread said WoW is as important as work, family or friends? No one. Infact you made that position up in order to make your vitrolic rantings seem less silly.

D&D is as much a game as Wow or any other. Once again it's attitudes like this that are destroying the hobby.


My point of view: if someone is saying things like this, and your example goes far beyond what I have said, then ignore them.  You need not take offense by someone who does not share your views, how ever ridiculous you think their point of view.  People take offense in differnt ways and different degrees, some by small slights others (like me) dont take offense at all, I merely laugh.  And quite frankly I dont care if me thinking that playing a MMORPG 4 nights a week is sad and pathetic insults you or anyone else, if it does they need to get over themselves and take a step back.

I never stated that D&D was first and foremost, it just happens that D&D is what we on these formums have in common and what our discussions are based around.  I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people, especailly if this is their one night a week to get away, and some people can not dedicate more than this to go out and have some fun.  Just because you have and can squeeze so much fun and awesomeness into your life does not mean that another can do the same.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people[...]


And I suppose "Well, Monday night is bowling night, Tuesday is when I get my manicure and pedicure, Wednesday is soccer practice, Thursday is bar night..." would be more acceptable?

Face it, people aren't saying you're wrong for not wanting to change days: that's the purpose of a question, to get an answer.

What people are chafing at is how you're saying they're wrong for asking.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people[...]


And I suppose "Well, Monday night is bowling night, Tuesday is when I get my manicure and pedicure, Wednesday is soccer practice, Thursday is bar night..." would be more acceptable?

Face it, people aren't saying you're wrong for not wanting to change days: that's the purpose of a question, to get an answer.

What people are chafing at is how you're saying they're wrong for asking.



That is because I think he should make some decisions for himself, like the decision to give up or change one night of his WoWing before he decides that it is better to have everyone else change there busy schedules to accomodate his gaming schedule.  In my group, and I imagine it is the same for the group in question, our gaming schedule is based of work, family and other life issues.  Never would one of us persume to think that their gaming schedule should be taken into account whatsoever, especailly over those of us with things other than video games in our schedules.  Pleny of my players play video games, but they do it on the off-game nights, this I can respect and it is because they show me the same amount of respect that I show them.  Trying to make others change their lives based on a video game does not show any kind of respect to anyone and is self-centered at best.

edit And if you are busy every night of the week, I dont care what you are doing, then maybe you need to find a group that games on the weekends rather than pushing your schedule on others.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Why is this discussion still happening?  He doesn't see the reason for the request as valid.  No amount of text is going to change that - right or wrong.  Jus' sayin' ...
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]


My point of view: if someone is saying things like this, and your example goes far beyond what I have said, then ignore them.  You need not take offense by someone who does not share your views, how ever ridiculous you think their point of view.  People take offense in differnt ways and different degrees, some by small slights others (like me) dont take offense at all, I merely laugh. 

And quite frankly I dont care if me thinking that playing a MMORPG 4 nights a week is sad and pathetic insults you or anyone else, if it does they need to get over themselves and take a step back.

I never stated that D&D was first and foremost, it just happens that D&D is what we on these formums have in common and what our discussions are based around.  I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people, especailly if this is their one night a week to get away, and some people can not dedicate more than this to go out and have some fun.  Just because you have and can squeeze so much fun and awesomeness into your life does not mean that another can do the same.



It's not that far off actually. You are still being unnecessarily cruel to others simply because they have a different way of spending their time than yourself, when it doesn't harm anyone for them to spend it.

There is Much Irony in this post of yours.
Just because this is a D&D forum doesn't give anyone the right to treat D&D as if it were some how some Superior Activity to other hobbies.  Especially here in OTT. Maybe that sort of thing flies in Genital Discussion but it doesn't fly here.

For all you know he's helping the Guild set up a new Raid on Tuesday nights. This might be temporary. It's pretty common for a Guild's best players to set up tactics and strategies for the other Raid teams. he might even be helping a new officer get the hang of things. If he can't make it, he can't make it. However this is not a justification for your piss poor attitude of "well he is obviously inferior to me because he plays wow four nights a week!"

If the group really can't shift to a weekend date then that's just how it's going to be.
The wow player isn't wrong just for asking nor is he being selfish to reschedule Game Night.

Infact the group had shown a willingness to reschedule game night to Tuesday. So yes the group has demonstrated an ability to properly manage their time. Which is a skill critical in my opinion to being a functioning adult is the ability to adapt and change schedules. Otherwise you would never get anything done. The fact that the wow player, told them he's starting Raiding on Tuesday tells me really that maybe the group won't be gaming with him for a while.







http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
I don't think he's really raiding every night myself. I think he's just using it as an excuse to get away for a while.

If that is the case, then its even worse. Its one thing to be compelled to play a different game, but to lie to your friends is worse. If you really need time or you're burned out, just tell the group. Take a break and see if you want to play again. But don't hold your group hostage and waste their time.

Which means the answer to his request is clearly "Sorry, but no." There is nothing wrong with asking and his reasons for not being able to keep to the D&D schedule are immaterial.

Why is it "douchey" to ask to reschedule the game night?

There is nothing wrong with asking, but the way this player was described behaving was pretty douchey. Based upon the OP, the player was distracted and first left early. Then he lied about having to do chores. Then he claimed to be snowed in. Then he started to play via webcam while playing WoW. Then he asked for the group to change dates. They suggested a day which he originally did not include in his raid days. Then he stated that that day was also unavailable.

So that whole situation was handled very poorly by the player. The whole set of events (not just asking for the sessions to be moved) was what made the player a jerk.

No, it's fine to do it as much as he wants. It's his choice. It is not a choice I would make but to deride the player for it is most certainly not fine. It is his time and his life and he can spend it how he pleases.

Instead of "fine", I should have said "reasonable", "fair", or "considerate". If you want to play WoW more, its fine, but it seems unreasonable to have your DnD group reschedule their games just to accomodate you given the circumstances.

Why? What activities is it "acceptable" to do "four nights a week"? Why do you feel it is your right to dictate to others what are acceptable choices for them to make with the life and their free time?

They can do whatever they want with their free time. I am stating my belief on this situation and what I would do in it. I have no problem if the group decides to reschedule around the WoW player or if the group kicks the player out.

I just saw that people seemed to focus on the fact the player was playing WoW. I wanted to point out that for most recreational activities, I believe it is unreasonable to require others reschedule as the situation described.

I also thought it was worthwhile to clarify how the sitaution was described since it was not accurately described in this thread. It is not simply the case of a player asking for the game to be rescheduled and Baphogoat railing against WoW. There are other circumstances which leads me to believe the player in question is in the wrong.
I can't deny the fact that online friends are not quite as... well, real as real-life friends. I possess enough unbiased, logical thinking capability to admit that much. I suppose, then, that the ultimate decision rests on exactly how much an individual values their real-life friends over their online friends. Clearly, Baphogoat values his real-life friends far, far more than any potential online friends, while most of the rest of us see real-life friends and online friends with more or less equal value.

Using this method of decision-making, we are no longer dealing with facts, but rather opinions. Is Baphogoat's opinion that real-life friends are more important than online friends incorrect? I would say yes, if only because of his blatant disregard for the (in my opinion, major) inconvenience of these online friends in exchange for the (in my opinion, minor) convenience of his real-life friends. Viewing the situation under this different light, however, I find it more difficult to present such a black-and-white judgement as I previously offered.
In 99.9% of situations involving some measure of dissatisfaction over 4th Edition, the victims are just buttsore that "race/class/build/etc. X" doesn't have "convoluted mechanic Y" in order to accomplish "superfluous effect Z". Confessions of a Mustard Addicted Psychopath
hat is because I think he should make some decisions for himself


... No you don't.  You've been saying flat-up that he shouldn't even ask, that he should just figure it out himself.  That's not someone making "some decisions for [theirselves]", it's just them bending over for what you want.

Asking a question isn't bad.  How they react if they get an answer might be, but the question isn't invalid. 

edit And if you are busy every night of the week, I dont care what you are doing, then maybe you need to find a group that games on the weekends rather than pushing your schedule on others.


And THAT is a lot more reasonable then just frothing at the mouth because it's WoW.  Obsessing over just what the activity is really just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
I can't deny the fact that online friends are not quite as... well, real as real-life friends. I possess enough unbiased, logical thinking capability to admit that much. I suppose, then, that the ultimate decision rests on exactly how much an individual values their real-life friends over their online friends. Clearly, Baphogoat values his real-life friends far, far more than any potential online friends, while most of the rest of us see real-life friends and online friends with more or less equal value.

Using this method of decision-making, we are no longer dealing with facts, but rather opinions. Is Baphogoat's opinion that real-life friends are more important than online friends incorrect? I would say yes, if only because of his blatant disregard for the (in my opinion, major) inconvenience of these online friends in exchange for the (in my opinion, minor) convenience of his real-life friends. Viewing the situation under this different light, however, I find it more difficult to present such a black-and-white judgement as I previously offered.



I have four friends.

And dozens of acquaintices.

Friends are people that are practically family for me.

Acquaintice is everyone else that I find it agreeable to be around.

One of my Friends is online. I've never met this person face to face, but I know that if we were face to face we'd be like family just like my other Friends.

Online versus, real life has nothing to do with the quality of the person you are getting to know.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
Scypio says things in a way more PC/friendly way than I do, and is exactly correct on his assessment of the situation.  The player is in the wrong, and the fact that he plays WoW is really inconsequential.  The issue is the manner in which he has acted and the fact that after all that still expects othes to bend to fit his recreational schedule, that is more easily changed than others work/family schedules.  It is his choice to be participating in these activities outside of game, a choice that he could easily change to avoid this whole perdicament.  To not make that choice himself and to expect that others deal with it for/because of him is selfish, lazy, and some may say cowardly as well.  I say cowardly because he started by lying to the group rather than face what they may say or think knowing the truth, which is odd since even with the lies they knew what was really going on, which also makes him stupid.  So to recap: He is wrong, selfish, lazy, cowardly and stupid...he may have some good qualities but those have not been in debate.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Boraxe,Thank you for pointing out that I am wrong, I have seen the error of my ways and...wait nevermind, that didn't change anything whatsoever.


I didn't think it would change anything, I just thought you should know.

So now you are judging my want to play with myself every night and still have my D&D game fit within my master schedule. But I can't judge a MMORPG and the scheduling conflicts that creates?  Hypocrite. 


Again with the personal insults. This really doesn't help.

and the argument I have put forward fits along the same lines as your and other's arguments that it does not matter what I am doing, if it is important to me others should consider it important enough to change their lives for.  that is exactly what you are saying and I disagree.


Sorry, this is too jumbled to make sense of.

Also I like how tell me how personal attacks dont bolster your position right after having declared my argument "the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months." Double hypocrite.


I do not think that word means what you think it means. I did not insult you. The argument was stupid, I did not claim you were.

Anyway, that is not the point, the point is that real life takes presidence, so reschduling around work or family issues is ok, reschduling around another player adding a 4th night of gaming does not fit the bill.


In your opinion. Others disagree.

It is his choice if he wants to play another night of WoW, but the others have real things they need to fit in their lives and would like to keep their ONE night of gaming. 


Yes, and for that reason the WoW player is SOL. He has chosen WoW over D&D. It is not a choice I would make but that doesn't make it wrong.

So their schedules do take presidence over the Wower's, simple logic and reasoning can get you there.  Real life = Important, Video games = not important.


D&D is not "real life".

the D&Ders are not asking anyone to reschdule anything around them, they had made a decision as a group on the best night for all of them to fit into their lives and to change that for a player that wants to go home and play a video game makes little sense.


Yes, and as I said that means the WoW player is SOL.

and excuse is not a loaded term, nor is the word want. I


In this instance it most certainly is a loaded term. It suggests the player is doing something wrong. "Reason" would have been more appropriate if you are not trying to imply negative connotations.

I do not consider D&D game to be my life, I play the game and I do not ask that anyone reschedul their lives around me and my gaming habits.


And if something else came up would you? And if you asked for the game to be rescheduled how would you react to someone who responded as rudely and derisively to your request as have you?

My opinion that holding a video game


Again, you focus on the "video game" aspect rather than the fact he is playing a game with other real people. WoW is a medium, just as is a tabletop game like D&D, for a social activity.

to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.


D&D is not "family, friends and work", it is a game, and WoW can involve "family and friends". When I played WoW easily half of the people with whom I regularly played were real-world friends - many from my D&D group - and a handful more were family members.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.

There was a quote from Baphogoat here, but the forum ate it. Piece of crap.



If someone in my family died, the second person I'd go to would be my long-distance friend, who I can only see like once every 2 months and I'd probably talk on the phone or through the web.
The first person would be my girlfriend, and the only reason we can talk face to face is because she moved in with me, because she used to live as far away as my other friend.

I met both of them, like most of my friends actually, online. Just because you do not attach any importance to such a friendship, does not mean other people don't. When I play games, the people I play with can become my friends, and easily as close a friend as people that I game with in person.

And I know I can count on them as much as I can count on the people I know from the real world, even though they can't always help.

Anyway, it seems obvious that you value "real life" a lot more then I do, which is fine. But it doesn't hold true for everyone.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
D&D is not "family, friends and work", it is a game, and WoW can involve "family and friends". When I played WoW easily half of the people with whom I regularly played were real-world friends - many from my D&D group - and a handful more were family members.


Never once did I say that D&D was real life.  What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work.  To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
If someone in my family died, the second person I'd go to would be my long-distance friend, who I can only see like once every 2 months and I'd probably talk on the phone or through the web.
The first person would be my girlfriend, and the only reason we can talk face to face is because she moved in with me, because she used to live as far away as my other friend.

I met both of them, like most of my friends actually, online. Just because you do not attach any importance to such a friendship, does not mean other people don't. When I play games, the people I play with can become my friends, and easily as close a friend as people that I game with in person.

And I know I can count on them as much as I can count on the people I know from the real world, even though they can't always help.

Anyway, it seems obvious that you value "real life" a lot more then I do, which is fine. But it doesn't hold true for everyone.

Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Never once did I say that D&D was real life.  What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work.  To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.


And there is nothing wrong with that. The issue I, and others, have is not with this position - which is prefectly reasonable - it is with your derision towards and rudeness about why this player is asking for the change. They are two separate issues entirely.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
Never once did I say that D&D was real life.  What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work.  To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.


And there is nothing wrong with that. The issue I, and others, have is not with this position - which is prefectly reasonable - it is with your derision towards and rudeness about why this player is asking for the change. They are two separate issues entirely.

Well, I think his request is ridiculous.  And it is not any different than asking your group to move game night because you have TV shows you like to watch mon-thurs.  This is not a good reason and either is 'having' to play WoW or any other game 4 nights a week.  This is especailly true when you take in to account his behavior and treatment of the rest of the group leading up to this discussion.  What he should do is either stop coming to game, letting the group know, or leave that one night open to join the group.  If decides to continue wit the group he should leave WoW, TV and any other distracting activities at home for the night, and participate in the chosen activity of the night, in this case is D&D.

You may think that I am being rude, but I find nothing about me thinking a video game is not a reason(look I didn't say excuse) to reschedule a game night as being rude.  The reason why they need to change game night is very important, and should be taken into account.  Even if I dont think that WoW is worth my time, I do not necessarily look down on others for playing it, but when their playing it starts to affect my life, then my views change, and it becomes an issue.  It is the choice in the player's life and should stay that way.  I dont play it myself and I dont think that my life should be impacted by it.

I have players that may not be able to make it for one reason or another, but they dont expect the rest of us to make that change.  We may end up changing things around for that week to accomodate them, but they do not expect it or ask it, because they respect the other players and their lives.  Because of this respect that is shown between us we are willing to make these changes, but the player in question had not acted in a respectful manner towards his group and should not be given the same consideration.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
My blah

Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."



But if out of those 60 people, I have 5 friends like the ones I described, then I have more friends on my WoW raid then I do around the D&D table. At that point your whole argument kinda breaks down, doesn't it?

 It might be a game, but so is D&D. So the only reason that game A is important, but game B is not, is the fact that one is played on the computer?
Neither can be more "played at any time" (you can as easily argue "change guilds" as you can "change D&D groups"), both have an equal amount of social involvement, neither is more important to "real life". It's just that one is on the computer, and the other is not.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.