Minions Becoming Bloodied, Triggers

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I have what should be a simple question: Does killing a minion trigger allow a player to use a power that triggers when they bloody an enemy?

The barbarian in my game has a power that pushes back and deals a few points of thunder damage to adjacent enemies when he bloodies a foe. I don't remember what it's called or if that's the exact power, to be honest, but it's not that important. The jumped into the midst of four minions, killed one, and asked if his power triggered. When unsure I usually favor the players until I can find an official ruling, so I said it did. This automatically wiped out the other three minions. A potent combo! Was I correct in my ruling?
I would think no. Every other creature has a bloodied value listed even though it is always one half total hp, since minions do not (and can not since their hp is 1) I would rule that they can not become blooded. They just die.
I'm going to go with no.  Minions don't lose hit points.  They are just destroyed if they take any damage.

From the compendium glossary entry for Minion:
A minion is destroyed when it takes any damage.

Edit: OTOH, I guess you can make an argument that this doesn't stop them from also take the damage and going into negative hit points.
I agree with you that this shouldn't trigger the bloodied trigger, but I disagree that minions don't lose hit points. The Kobold Wyrmpriest gives temps to his allies. No reason to say minions wouldn't get such temps, so in this case, a minion would have 6 (1 + 5 temp) hit points to lose.

Temp hit points don't do a minion any good.  It is destroyed if it takes any damage.  Damage that reduces temp hit points is still taking damage.

I agree with you that this shouldn't trigger the bloodied trigger, but I disagree that minions don't lose hit points. The Kobold Wyrmpriest gives temps to his allies. No reason to say minions wouldn't get such temps, so in this case, a minion would have 6 (1 + 5 temp) hit points to lose.



Even if FitzNighteyes was wrong and temp HP prevented minions from taking damage because when you have to deplete the temp HP first before the minion actually gets harmed by it, the fact of the matter is they still don't lose hit points: either they take damage and die, or they don't take damage at all; all temp HP does is give them a buffer that delays their taking of damage. And if FitzNighteyes is right, they still don't lose hit points because it's either take-damage-and-die or no damage at all.
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I'd have to go with "yes, minons do get bloodied". They are creatures, and nothing says that they don't take damage (on a hit). So this should get them below half hit point (0 or negative is below half of 1), thus bloodying them. Dying doesn't stop you from loosing hitpoints.
I'm gonna go with no as well.

Only because bloody triggers open up all kinds of abuse when killing minions en mass.

For:
While it is true that I have never seen a minion on 0 HP, I have never seen a standard mob on 0 either. There are some rules wordings (ie pact boon trigger) which actually say when it goes down to 0 hp, even though we never see this.

Against:
It tells us to remove standard mobs as if destroyed on 0, yet tells us minions are destroyed and going from 1-destroyed never reaches 0.

Minions do go to 0 HP or lower when they take damage there by triggering things that happen when a monster dies (including warlock pact boons).


Minions do not have a listed bloodied value, therefore don't become bloodied when they take damage. They merely die.

I houserule: minions are always considered bloodied.  Minor effects, generally beneficial for the PCs could result but who cares: they're minions.


Edit: OTOH, I guess you can make an argument that this doesn't stop them from also take the damage and going into negative hit points.



But monsters, unlike PCs, don't *have* negative hit points.  They die instantly upon being reduced to 0 unless they have some special power that says they don't.  The only situation I can think of in which this doesn't happen is when a PC chooses to knock out a monster instead of killing it.  At that point, the monster does exist, alive, at 0 hit points.  As a result, minions are either alive and kicking or dead-they don't ever exist in a bloodied state unless you want to make the very strange argument that knocking out minions bloodies them.
Bloodied is defined as (from the Compendium):
"Bloodied Value: You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better."

So, minions should have a bloodied value of zero; 1 divides in half to 1/2, then rounds down to zero.  It is a feasible rules interpretation that striking a minion renders it bloodied and dead at the same time, and as far as I know, there is no rule that says 'dead' overrides 'bloodied', so you can be both at once.

That said, reduce-a-foe-to-zero-HP triggers could be pretty abusable with this interpretation.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Bloodied is defined as (from the Compendium):
"Bloodied Value: You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better."

So, minions should have a bloodied value of zero; 1 divides in half to 1/2, then rounds down to zero.  It is a feasible rules interpretation that striking a minion renders it bloodied and dead at the same time, and as far as I know, there is no rule that says 'dead' overrides 'bloodied', so you can be both at once.

That said, reduce-a-foe-to-zero-HP triggers could be pretty abusable with this interpretation.



I would rule against that at my table. A minion is destroyed if it takes any damage (aside from damage on a miss). I would say that means it can't be reduced to .5.
Bloodied is defined as (from the Compendium):
"Bloodied Value: You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better."

So, minions should have a bloodied value of zero; 1 divides in half to 1/2, then rounds down to zero.  It is a feasible rules interpretation that striking a minion renders it bloodied and dead at the same time, and as far as I know, there is no rule that says 'dead' overrides 'bloodied', so you can be both at once.

That said, reduce-a-foe-to-zero-HP triggers could be pretty abusable with this interpretation.



I would rule against that at my table. A minion is destroyed if it takes any damage (aside from damage on a miss). I would say that means it can't be reduced to .5.

So no pact boon from minions, then?
Bloodied is defined as (from the Compendium):
"Bloodied Value: You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better."

So, minions should have a bloodied value of zero; 1 divides in half to 1/2, then rounds down to zero.  It is a feasible rules interpretation that striking a minion renders it bloodied and dead at the same time, and as far as I know, there is no rule that says 'dead' overrides 'bloodied', so you can be both at once.

That said, reduce-a-foe-to-zero-HP triggers could be pretty abusable with this interpretation.



I would rule against that at my table. A minion is destroyed if it takes any damage (aside from damage on a miss). I would say that means it can't be reduced to .5.

So no pact boon from minions, then?



Why not? Doesn't a boon activate when the minion is reduced to 0 hit points?
Bloodied is defined as (from the Compendium):
"Bloodied Value: You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better."

So, minions should have a bloodied value of zero; 1 divides in half to 1/2, then rounds down to zero.  It is a feasible rules interpretation that striking a minion renders it bloodied and dead at the same time, and as far as I know, there is no rule that says 'dead' overrides 'bloodied', so you can be both at once.

That said, reduce-a-foe-to-zero-HP triggers could be pretty abusable with this interpretation.



I would rule against that at my table. A minion is destroyed if it takes any damage (aside from damage on a miss). I would say that means it can't be reduced to .5.

So no pact boon from minions, then?



Why not? Doesn't a boon activate when the minion is reduced to 0 hit points?

Not reduced to .5 or less necessarily implies that it's not reduced to 0 or less.
If thats what you want to read into it, I suppose it does. However, we were not talking about pact boons. We were talking about the bloodied value of 1. Pact boons state when it is reduced to 0, it goes off. I'd say a minion works in that situation. If boons said they went off when the enemy is bloodied, I'd say that boons would not work on minions. Two seperate situations/issues.
If thats what you want to read into it, I suppose it does. However, we were not talking about pact boons. We were talking about the bloodied value of 1. Pact boons state when it is reduced to 0, it goes off. I'd say a minion works in that situation. If boons said they went off when the enemy is bloodied, I'd say that boons would not work on minions. Two seperate situations/issues.

A pact boon triggers off of a creature being reduced to 0 or less.

Being bloodied triggers off of a creature being reduced to (half HP) or less.

If minions do not have HP, they cannot be reduced to 0 HP, and thus don't trigger pact boons.

If minions do have HP, then they have 1 HP, which means that minions have a bloodied value of 0(1*.5, rounded down=0).

A pact boon on a minion triggers off of a minion being reduced to 0 or less.
Being bloodied on a minion triggers off of a minion being reduced to 0 or less.
Evidence which suggests that the pact boon triggers (and so the bloodied effects as well) can be found in the errata for PHB under "Rod of Reaving".

They clarify the rod of reaving as not working on a minion, to prevent the pact boon effect from rod of corruption killing lots of minions with a single curse.

This means that pact boons work on minions, which means they must be able to get to 0 hp. At 0 hp, the bloodied powers would also work by this reasoning.

So I reckon on-bloodied effects work fine for minions, although if it gets abusive (as for rod of reaving / corruption combo), then it is up to the DM to put a stop to it.

I guess I'd call it a houserule then. I'd like to see something official that says minions are bloodied at 0. No, I don't consider a nerfing of an item to be an example of this unless it says "a minion is bloodied at 0".

EDIT: I looked up Rod of Reaving on the CB, and I don't follow your logic. The rod doesn't kill minions...so thats your logic for claiming they are bloodied at 0? At 0, they are not bloodied, they are destroyed. Source is the monster manual. Do you guys have anything close to a source that "when bloodied" effects work on minions?

Look up rod of corruption as well. That only applies when pact boon is triggered, and pact boon is triggered only when enemy is reduced to 0 hp.

The update on rod of reaving no longer affecting minions is due to the massive minion killing this would allow with just a single curse, so they're counting a minion as triggering a pact boon here.

Hence, they count the minion as reaching 0 hp.
You are missing my point. It has nothing to do with boons, rods or anything involving anything other than a minion.

You are arguing minions are bloodied at 0, I am saying they are not. That is what I want proof on either way. I am saying destroyed eclipses bloodied as nothing says, when a minion takes damage it is bloodied & destroyed. It simply says it is destroyed.
I was on your side when this topic was first raised, but I changed my mind going by the logic that a minion can be reduced to 0hp. 0hp for anyone counts as bloodied.
I was on your side when this topic was first raised, but I changed my mind going by the logic that a minion can be reduced to 0hp. 0hp for anyone counts as bloodied.



Hmm, and keep in mind I'm not claiming I am right. Where does it state a minion can be reduced to 0 (I am being nit picky here by the way)? It says if it takes any damage, it is destroyed.
The minions not being bloodied would be the exception to the rule, which would have its own wording. All creatures are bloodied on less than half, unless otherwise stated.

I'm just going by the logic that a minion can be on 0 (or else the pact boon could not be triggered), whether it then gets destroyed or not. That is the significance of the pact boon argument.

A minion can not be on 0.

If it takes any damage, it is destroyed. Not down, unconcious, dying. Destroyed.

Note, they also dont have a bloodied value on their stats.

So then you can only kill them, not knock them unconscious. Unless the power you are using renders a creature unconscious without dealing damage.


 


Must suck for the party if they want to leave one of the enemies alive for interrogation.


A minion can not be on 0.

If it takes any damage, it is destroyed. Not down, unconcious, dying. Destroyed.

Note, they also dont have a bloodied value on their stats.




What Yarlen is trying to say is this..........

The warlocks pact boon triggers off of going to 0 hp.

Wizards has confirmed that minions trigger pact boons which makes your point above false.

Yarlen follows the logic that since bloodied is a state where the following is true "creature is at half HP or less" and minions have HP and can be reduced to 0 then they must be bloodied as well

A minion can not be on 0.

If it takes any damage, it is destroyed. Not down, unconcious, dying. Destroyed.

Note, they also dont have a bloodied value on their stats.




What Yarlen is trying to say is this..........

The warlocks pact boon triggers off of going to 0 hp.

Wizards has confirmed that minions trigger pact boons which makes your point above false.

Yarlen follows the logic that since bloodied is a state where the following is true "creature is at half HP or less" and minions have HP and can be reduced to 0 then they must be bloodied as well



Alrighty.

A minion can not be on 0.

If it takes any damage, it is destroyed. Not down, unconcious, dying. Destroyed.

Note, they also dont have a bloodied value on their stats.




Every monsters get reduced to 0 Hit Points. The main difference between PC and monsters is that they are slain when reduced to 0 or fewer hit points. They are destroyed. Minion or not. But everyone reducing any monsters to 0 HP or lower can decide to knock him Uncouncious instead. This rule apply to all monsters, regardless if they have 1 or 788 HP IIRC.

Minions don't have Bloodied value because they are destroyed when reaching 0 HP. But it's possible to bloody a Minion by knocking him Uncouncious. I don't have my book with me but Minions would not be immune to being knocked uncouncious unless it says "when you reduce a Non-Minion monsters to 0 or fewer HP...". If not,  they are bloodied by being still alive at half their total HP.

I will have to look tonight.

A minion can not be on 0.

If it takes any damage, it is destroyed. Not down, unconcious, dying. Destroyed.

Note, they also dont have a bloodied value on their stats.




Every monsters get reduced to 0 Hit Points. The main difference between PC and monsters is that they are slain when reduced to 0 or fewer hit points. They are destroyed. Minion or not. But everyone reducing any monsters to 0 HP or lower can decide to knock him Uncouncious instead. This rule apply to all monsters, regardless if they have 1 or 788 HP IIRC.

Minions don't have Bloodied value because they are destroyed when reaching 0 HP. But it's possible to bloody a Minion by knocking him Uncouncious. I don't have my book with me but Minions would not be immune to being knocked uncouncious unless it says "when you reduce a Non-Minion monsters to 0 or fewer HP...". If not,  they are bloodied by being still alive at half their total HP.

I will have to look tonight.



I think the thread was started in regard to effects which trigger "when you bloody an enemy" rather than effects which only happen "against bloodied enemies".

I understand what you guys are saying. I just disagree lol. Are there any monster effects anywhere that state when a minion is bloodied? Anything that says anything about a minion being bloodied at all? Isn't that the least bit curious? You guys are using the logic (which is risky in anything D&D related) of a pact boon going off to support your stance, and that is fine. I simply disagree. I'd also point out that 0 or less isn't bloodied....it's dying but I don't play warlocks, and currently have no characters that this issue would impact, so I really don't have a dog in this fight lol.

Bloodied is <1/2.   -5 HP is indeed less than half.

Yes this means that you are still bloodied while dying, and this is what made the Cleric power "Consecrated Ground" so imba and abusive.

Yes.....I understand. I've read it. Now, why is it that you think that bypasses what minions say, what dying says and what death says? If the minion takes 2 points of damage, it isn't bloodied, it is dead.


Yes.....I understand. I've read it. Now, why is it that you think that bypasses what minions say, what dying says and what death says? If the minion takes 2 points of damage, it isn't bloodied, it is dead.




By that logic you don't bloody an enemy with an attack that reduces him from 51% or more hp to 0%hp or less regardless if minion or not.



I agree with Imperius, but not with his logic.  In fact, I think the logic used against him is the best argument on his behalf thusfar.

Minions have HP listed, and are destroyed if they take any damage, but take no damage from a miss effect - this is all listed on their profile, you don't need to reference the minion rules for this.

They do not, however, have a bloodied value listed - and there is no rule that suggests that all creatures have bloodied values or are subject to the bloodied condition.  The PHB lists rules for bloodied value when creating player characters and the MM lists rules for bloodied value on monster profiles, which minions do not have.

Yes.....I understand. I've read it. Now, why is it that you think that bypasses what minions say, what dying says and what death says? If the minion takes 2 points of damage, it isn't bloodied, it is dead.




By that logic you don't bloody an enemy with an attack that reduces him from 51% or more hp to 0%hp or less regardless if minion or not.






No, I was using the death rules......it states if you are reduced to 0, you are unconcious and dying. If you reach your bloodied value into the negative, you are dead. A minion has 1 HP, so if .5 is bloodided....is it -.5 rounded down to -1 or rounded down to 0....either way, he is dead with 2 points of damage. I've been up all night, so maybe I'm crazy.
Yeah but if you can knock him Uncouncious, he will be bloodied at 0HP, like any creature in the game.

What the rules for knocking Uncouncious says ?
Yeah but if you can knock him Uncouncious, he will be bloodied at 0HP, like any creature in the game.

What the rules for knocking Uncouncious says ?



I keep going back to this, and as FlashbackJon also pointed out, if they take any damage, they are destroyed. If you choose to KO it, it is still taking damage therefore it is destroyed.
Sorry for repeating myself here...

If a minion can be reduced to 0 HP (see pact boon trigger), and going on the premise that 0HP is less than 1/2, then whether it is destroyed or not, the act of it going to 0HP will trigger a bloodied effect where applicable, and destroy the minion.

The remaining question is whether a minion is bloodied on 0 HP.
Yeah but if you can knock him Uncouncious, he will be bloodied at 0HP, like any creature in the game.

What the rules for knocking Uncouncious says ?



I keep going back to this, and as FlashbackJon also pointed out, if they take any damage, they are destroyed. If you choose to KO it, it is still taking damage therefore it is destroyed.



That rule is also valid for any monsters. When a monster is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, it is destroyed. What is the difference ?
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