PHB4 Speculation and Wishlist

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Now that we pretty much know about the contents of the PHB3 that's being released next month, we can start speculating a bit more on the next Player's Handbook. What sorts of things would you like to see show up there?

Some possibilities:

Classes: Shadow will probably be the next power source featured, since we've already got the Assassin and the power source has more unique concepts that can be easily imagined than Elemental. Of course, with Dark Sun coming out later in the year, there's a slight possibility that Elemental will get the nod over Shadow due to the source's greater importance there.

We're likely to see at least one new Psionic class in the PHB4 as well. The third power source could be Primal, Divine, or even Martial. It's difficult, however, to imagine another Martial class that can occupy an unique niche not filled by the Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, or Warlord (as the various attempts at making a Martial Controller show).

 
Races: If Shadow is the next power source, it's a pretty good bet we'll see Shadar-Kai as an available race. Other races might be a bit difficult to tell (it might be nice to see more "monstrous" races like the Kobold or Goblin make the cut).

One possibility would be to attempt to make a few races that break out of the humanoid mold. For instance:

Centaurs: Might be interesting if they feature a sixth primal class in PHB4. If the thought of having medium-sized centaurs proves too much of an obstacle, Bariaurs could be an alternative. They figured out how to make a four-armed race with the Thri-Kreen from Dark Sun, so a quadripedal race shouldn't be that much more of a challenge.

Winged race: Raptorans or Avariel might fit the mold here. To balance out the obvious advantage that flying would grant, the best solution I see is to merely allow them to glide until paragon levels, where they can get a feat that gives them overland flight (a few paragon paths let characters fly at about the same time, so it should be fairly balanced).

Aquatic race: An underwater (or amphibious, so that they aren't limited to aquatic campaigns) race would also be an interesting option. Watersoul genasi can fill this role to a degree, but aren't a perfect fit.

Undead race: Revenants and dhampyr already give us some options in this mold, but there's always room for more, particularly when designing races around the shadow source.
We already have the Shadar-kai as a playable race ... in Dragon and the Dragon Annual ...

And their place in the Annual is why they won't be in PHB4, just like the Warforged were in Dragon, and then the EPG.  The Minotaur only appeared in Dragon, so they were free for PHB3.
Good point, although we've also had the Warforged in Dragon (reprinted in Eberron), the Gnoll (unlikely), Revenant (DDI only atm), and Shadar-kai. Aquatic/amphibious races would be unlikely imo, the closest thing we have to one is the bullywug with swampwalk.

Other potencial races: Kir-Lanan (3.0 FRCS)? Githyanki? Duergar? Kenku? Lizardfolk? Aasimar? Rakshasa? Sharakim (Races of Destiny (3.5) gives them shadow affinity)?

Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?

Other: Much more on Bloodlines would be a reasonable possibility.

Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?



...OMG: it comes again!
=)

(but a new martial guy will be interesting, no matter the role)

Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?



Please, a Psionic striker with the augment points theme.

MY WISHLIST:
Shadow-Defender: Blackguard
Shadow-Controller: Necromancer
Shadow-Leader: Beguiller
Shadow-Striker: Duskblade
Psionic-striker: Lurker or Soulknife
Martial-Controller: Sniper (With venom and explosive arrows, like alchemist fire)
I'm actually hoping for another divine class in PH4, to finish off the Divine Power source.  Probably a Shepherd, Divine Defender.  I also want two Shadow Controllers – Beguiller and Necromancer.  I feel there's room for both, and with Assassin, a second Shadow Striker can wait for sometime.  Beguiller might have a minor in striker, as might Hexblade, to make up for it, though.


Acolyte, Shadow Leader, Int – Con/Dex
Beguiller, Shadow Controller, Cha – Dex/Int
Hexblade, Shadow Defender, Con – Dex/Cha
Lurk, Psionic Striker, Cha – Dex/Wis
Necromancer, Shadow Controller, Int – Str/Con
Shepherd, Divine Defender, Wis – Con/Cha



My Acolyte concept, is a medic that either is a master of manipulating flesh and organs (Acolyte of the Flesh, Dex), or draining, infusing, and stopping blood (Acolyte of the Blood, Con).  It requires great intelligence in order to know the medical skills and necromantic studies to perform these healing works.  The Acolyte of the Flesh might also ruin their own body, as they practiced on themselves, and even create organ wretches from their ruined flesh, while the Acolyte of the Blood might drain enemies blood like a vampire, but use it to influse allies with health. 

Lurks always seemed to me as someone who wasn't hiding by their stealth, but hiding through a bluff – they erase the image of themselves in their enemies minds.  Charisma is perfect for that.  As they are social (or anti-social, sometimes) beings, Wisdom is also important, and Dexterity is still important for movement and for non-psychic hiding.

I see Necromancers as both a summoner and a melee combatant themselves.  They'll fight right up ther on the front lines.  That's why I gave them Str or Con with a major in Int.  Notice that they're the only Shadow class without Dexterity.

Shepherds are implement defenders whose only proficiency with weapons are the staff, the club, and the sling, but they can use staffs and clubs as implements (clubs can become rods).  It's like a David and Goliath sort of class – they watch over their flock and protect them.  It's been talked about elsewhere, and I won't take credit for the idea, but ever since it was raised, I've been hoing to see it.

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They hinted at Illumians in Manual of the Planes, and haven't covered them yet, right?  Orcs, goblins, and kobolds are my hopes.

Good point, although we've also had the Warforged in Dragon (reprinted in Eberron), the Gnoll (unlikely), Revenant (DDI only atm), and Shadar-kai. Aquatic/amphibious races would be unlikely imo, the closest thing we have to one is the bullywug with swampwalk.

Other potencial races: Kir-Lanan (3.0 FRCS)? Githyanki? Duergar? Kenku? Lizardfolk? Aasimar? Rakshasa? Sharakim (Races of Destiny (3.5) gives them shadow affinity)?

Classes: Shadow-Defender, Shadow-Controller, Shadow-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-something, Martial-Controller?

Other: Much more on Bloodlines would be a reasonable possibility.



Aasimar probably isn't going to happen, it'd be considered needless symmetry, and Deva does a good job as an angelic PC race while being unique (instead of just "well, I'm a human, but because granpappy was an angel I glow sometimes, and I'm good for no adequately explained reason.")  Also, there's supposed to be deva bloodline feats in Dragon, so that covers "granpappy was an angel" better than a race.  Although, if alignment still had mechanical effects, I could possibly see aasimars as having come about similar to tieflings, a group of humans that dedicated themselves to the deity that was killed by Asmodeus (the Jesus knock-off that had the chalice that the Knights of the Chalice in Divine Power want), but since the deity's death, they're mechanically considered lawful good or good whenever their actual alignment wouldn't help (the idea being they could take both G and LG feats, if they existed... or have a Tiamat worshipper benefitting from LG feats...).  But alignment doesn't have any mechanical effect, so no point (although I suppose a houserule that radiant damage is now keyworded according to the alignment of the attacker, but eh, too much work right now).

Duergar, Kenku, and Lizardfolk would be interesting additions.


Rakshasa would be a good idea, evil Devas are supposed to reincarnate as Rakshasas, right?

I really hope that Illumians, rather than being their own race, are a subracial build for Humans featured in a Winning Races article.  It would work so much better there as a feat chain concept for Humans.  Also, they'd keep their human versatility of abilities.


I don't see Rakshasas happening due to extreme villain decay.

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I'm actually hoping for another divine class in PH4, to finish off the Divine Power source. 



...in my opinion, divine is already finished: we founded divine classes for 3 PHBs at that's no limit of 6 classes to get

if they found new good divine concepts, let's we see

I don't know enough psionics, so I don't know if there are other concepts to cover

could be possible if in PHB4 find place 2 new sources, aka Shadow and Elemental?
Shadow Source:
Hexblade- Defender
Beguiler- Striker (caster)
?- Controller
?- Leader

Psionic- Lurk or Soulkniffe would be nice

Martial- Something

I'd be fine with Shadow not having a leader, since the shadow ideas are usually more loner types I think it could work, and having one could to. Don't know what role, possibly controller, but I would like to see a shadow class that manipulates shadows like shikamaru or other characters with umbrakinesis.

I want another martial class, with some of what we're seeing from MP2 they are tapping a lot of cool space.
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Archivist


"Ash from the temple ruins of Zaluul is known to ward off evil and conceals the righteous, let's see if it works"


Role: Controller. Your collection of ancient knowledge and relics are used to get the upper hand on your enemies, depending on how you use your gifts you may lean towards leader or striker as a secondary role
Power Source: Divine. With the blessings of the gods, you have spent much time unearthing the lost scriptures, forgotten lore and sacred treasures of the ages, you use this divine knowledge and various holy baubles in the name of the gods of both old and new


Key Abilities: Int vs. Dex with Wis
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Tomes


Builds: Lore Seeker and Treasure Hunter


Thats right, a V class. I see this class taking on two archetypes; the Divine rogue who uses reliquary and divine luck to undermine his opponents in a very Indiana Jonnes type way, and the robe wearing Divine scholar who can use their esoteric knowledge of their enemies to overpower them.

I almost forgot about Archivists.  I really would like that concept too.

For somereason, the non-roguish one I feel should have a minor in Leadership, as a pulpit-reader of divine texts to convert the masses. 

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Godborn


“My body and soul was forged by Moradin himself, I am a gift to the world and a bane to the likes of you”


Role: Defender. With the blood of a god flowing through your veins, you have resilience and might to stand up for the weak and protect your fellow mortals
Power Source: Divine. Perhaps it was foretold, perhaps it was a secret, but you are the living kin of the gods themselves and that divine heritage is the source of your power


Key Abilities: Con with Str or Cha
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, light shield, heavy shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged, military melee 


Builds: Mighty Godborn and Adonis Godborn


Ki Focus user, they can use the Divine power flowing though them to turn even a rusty old sword or even their fist into the weapon of a god. The class is designed to cover demigods such as Hercules or Perseus, natural born heroes.

I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material.  I'd rather they focus on other things.  Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).

More thoughts later maybe?
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
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I almost forgot about Archivists.  I really would like that concept too.

For somereason, the non-roguish one I feel should have a minor in Leadership, as a pulpit-reader of divine texts to convert the masses. 



No yeah, thats how I have it; Scholar minor in leader because they're the ones who bring this lore to the people and help them with it, Delvers minor in striker because their tactics are more similar to the beast Druids with precision control.

I like the idea of a melee controller, but I only think it only works as one half of a class, with the other side doing the AoEs and such; other wise you just fall short of what a controller needs to be able to do IMO, so with this class, like Druid, you have the option of going all melee.

I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material.  I'd rather they focus on other things.  Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).



Really, Runepriest doesn't have you *super fired up* about Divine?  

Witch

"if you give to the earth, then I shall give back ten fold, and if you take from it, i will come for what is due"
 


Role: Leader. Using the hidden magic of the spirit world, you have the power to change your allies into fierce predators and your foes into easy prey
Power Source: Primal. The earth provides humanity with all it needs, you are one of the few who know where to find it, the ancient secrets of the spirit way are great enough to challenge the gods themselves


Key Abilities: Wis with Int or Dex
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Tomes, daggers, totems


Builds: Lunar Mystic and Voodoo Mystic
85457.jpg 

Witchs cover a wide range of archetypes; such as witch doctor, wu-jen and pagan priest. Their powers are themed on transforming allies and enemies; the Lunar Mystic focuses on the allies such as giving a ally a encounter power or turning the whole party into wolves, the Voodoo Mystic focuses on transforming enemies such as controlling them via "black sleep" or turning their hands into glass.

Players handbook 4 will prove all other power sources untenable. dnd 4.5 is coming- the end is nigh.
Really, Runepriest doesn't have you *super fired up* about Divine?  


Haha.  It's not just the Runepriest (which I'm trying to keep an open mind about, until I see it in person).  More of a "we've seen Divine in every PH - I'd really rather they use the space for new classes with other themes."

The Archivist was a great class, and I'd love to see it come back... but I'm not sure it would have to be Divine.  (And I'd love to see it be Dragon-only content, rather than filling a PH again).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material.  I'd rather they focus on other things.  Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).


Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.
Kobolds o_o pretty soon i'll have to make my KOBOLDS FOR PHB4 thread like I have done with phb1, phb2, and phb3

GIVE US KOBOLDS ALREADY @_@
I'm really... tired of the Divine power source (to be fair, same with Arcane), at least when it comes to new material.  I'd rather they focus on other things.  Preferably Shadow, and more Psionic stuff (and some other things?).


Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.



Maybe because it is easier to attach the arcane/divine fluff to a particular class? Make any power and slap on arcane/divine and it makes sense, but hard for martial. 

Anyway I am more interested to see what other things are in the PHB4 besides race and class...and rules update Tongue out
...pure speculation about new playable races, checking the Origin keywords for monsters:

Aberration - playable aberant races miss
Angel - get: deva angel-style
Aquatic - miss, except watersoul genasi from Forgotten Realms
Beast - shifters and minotaurs shoul cover beast-like races
Polimorph - changeling from Eberron
Construct - warfoged from Eberron are construct-style
Demon - maybe genasi from Forgotten Realms are covering the elemental part of demons?
Devil - tiefling are devil-style
Dragon - dragonborn dragon-style
Elemental - genasi from Forgotten Realms
Fey - many playable races
Fly - windsoul genasi from Forgotten Realms and some options for dragonborn
Giant - goliath giant-like besides being medium-size
Humanoid - all playable races are humanoid
Immortal - deva are
Living construct - see Construct
Magical beast - check Beast, and partly dragonborn, maybe
Mount - centaurs will be interesting, but a mount race means rule black-hole IMHO
Natural - most races are
Ooze - sentient oozes with acid-attacks? interesting, but maybe too strange
Plant - wilden coming
Reptile - dragonborn cover it
Shadow - shadar-kai in Dragon Annual
Shapechanger - check polimorph and beast
Swarm - very strange, like for oozes
Undead - revenants are
I'm looking forward to a CON/INT race, not because I personally care whether they exist but because I just want people to STFU about not having one.

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I like the idea of having an archivist, shadow classes (especially hexblade, but necromancer will be cool too), and more psionics.  Soulknife and lurk would be good, and we ought to have more non-weapon psychic types.  I agree with people that the ardent is a specific take on the empath concept, and that a real empath class is more generic than you could make an ardent.  Really, ardent feels like an empath/warlord hybrid - neat concept, but not a staple one.  And a wilder concept would be good - though I think Dark Sun's wilder rules will make it unnecessary.  I disagree with a demigod base class.  Yes, it's a good fantasy staple.  But it ought to be like a feat chain + paragon path/epic destiny, not its own class.

For races, I want kobolds.  I agree that them and goblins belong in a book with shadow classes.  And I'd kind of like to see a swarm-race.  I've read books that include them, and I think it's awesome!  (Though perhaps a refluffed shardmind will do).
I want more controller classes.

And I want a Dark Age of Camelot style friar.
Member of Grognards for 4th Edition
Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.


?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1

Seconded.
Divine are already looking at having the most classes to them together with arcane.


?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1




Just what I was thinking, CelticMutt. Primal's in the same boat as Divine.  

I want 6 Primal and 6 Divine.  I think there is conceptual space for both power sources to continue to expand.  I could even see 7 Divine (Archivist and Shepherd). 

I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left.  Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).

I -know- there's more conceptual space for Psionic.  Lurk is an example, but I want a Mystic class that uses Wisdom as a primary as well. 

Since we aren't getting any new classes in Dark Sun, but instead are getting the Arena Fighter, Animist Shaman, and Sorcerer-King Warlock, as well as themes like Wilder, Gladiator, Elemental Priest, Veiled Alliance, and Templar, I see new Psionic Classes at the earliest coming with PH4.  There might be a sixth in whatever Campaign Setting is after Dark Sun, though, and with the new product direction of putting new builds in books that aren't Power series books (the Essentials line), we might even see a whole Psionic class in another medium.  Assassin paved the way, being a Dragon only class; there might be an exclusive Psionic class as well to Dragon.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters.  I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor.  I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.  Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...

I mostly want a very large, clearly labelled sidebar that says 'Shadow is not evil'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
What I'm personally hoping for is completely new ideas, thematically and mechanically.  Meanwhile, I'd like to see the other power sources get the same treatment the Martail source has thrived on; taking the class concepts and expanding them in new and cool directions.

Martial is doing incredibly well thanks to the power books, which took four classes and expanded them into so many archetypes, blending a myriad of combat styles and mechanical methods into an array of awesome potential.  I'd like to see the same applied to other classes.  The wizard, for example, is doing a great job with its class features drawing upon four secondaries and a wide range of possible power themes.  The same should be done for all the current classes, with more variation, more archetypes, and more styles drawn under the banner of a single class name.

But for the handbooks, I'd like them bring us completely new ideas. 

That means the next defender shouldn't just be another Fighter clone, it should actually be a twist on the defence concept we have never seen.  We don't need another melee leader, we need something that actually broadens the horizons of the support and buffer character concept.  The blaster-conditioner-summoner trope has been done pretty well over in the controller line, so perhaps the next one should shake it up a bit.

Classes should be broad, evocative, and thematically and mechanically compelling.  Let the niche ideas be folded into current material to broaden them, and allow the new classes to break new ground for the game as a whole.

As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters.  I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor.  I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.  Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...



The Dark Sun themes are no more restricted to Dark Sun than Artificers are restricted to Eberron or Drow to Forgotten Realms.
I mostly want a very large, clearly labelled sidebar that says 'Shadow is not evil'.


Something like what it is said in the alignment part of the Shadowcaster's description? (Tome of Magic)
?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1


Okay, so martial/psionic are still on a higher priority for a 5th class than divine/primal are.
I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left.  Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).


Martial controller!!!1 xD
Even though it is much more in favor of shadow I am still hoping that it is Elemental that gets the go ahead for PHB4.  That's me though. 


Also, I'd love for PHB4 to the "race" book, instead of delving into something like hybrid classes or a new feature like that, just an expanded section on racial paragon/epics and racial powers/feats.  Toss some more backgrounds in for good measure and I'm happy.  You wouldn't even have to give me a new race with this option if you give love to the current races.


EDIT:  The above  statement still comes from the Races preview book where they say they wanted rave to play a bigger role in later game play then just at charater creation.  While there is a fair amount of options that point to them doing this, I personally feel they can still do alot more to live up to that claim.
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As much as I know it would cut into book space for new races / classes, I'd love to see more themes like the ones from the Dark Sun characters, but without being limited to Dark Sun characters.  I think it has huge potential, in both mechanics and flavor.  I'd love to see generic themes that could apply across all settings as well as themes for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.  Though I suppose that might work better as a Dragon article, the setting-specific ones especially ...



The Dark Sun themes are no more restricted to Dark Sun than Artificers are restricted to Eberron or Drow to Forgotten Realms.



Agreed, however, they are more like the Dragonmarked Feats, though not quite like Spellscarred. 

The have a fluff tied to important elements of Dark Sun.  You'd have to do some refluffing to put the Veilled Alliance or Templar themes into an Eberron or Forgotten Realms game.  The Elemental Cleric, Wilder, and Gladiator themes, on the other hand, are more generic. 

I want to see more of the generic themes, as well as a couple setting-specific ones for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.


I mostly want a very large, clearly labelled sidebar that says 'Shadow is not evil'.


Something like what it is said in the alignment part of the Shadowcaster's description? (Tome of Magic)
?
Arcane = 6
Divine = 5
Primal = 5
Martial = 4
Psionic = 4
Shadow =1


Okay, so martial/psionic are still on a higher priority for a 5th class than divine/primal are.
I don't see any conceptual space for Martial left.  Especially not after MP2 released builds and PPaths and Combat Styles that covered aspects that people were suggesting as new classes for Martial (Swashbuckling Defenders, Myrmidons, etc).


Martial controller!!!1 xD



Unless that was a joke, Martial Controller isn't a conceptual space.  It's a fluff-meet-crunch combo concept.  I don't see Martial having any priority for a 5th class, because they did exactly what they should do with Martial concepts:  worked them into an existing class, or as a combat style.  Many concepts that have been raised really aren't a class, but a way of playing multiple classes.  It's similar like themes in Dark Sun or Domain Feats from Divine Power.  

I'll agree that Psionic has the highest priority for another class, but I think that Divine and Primal actually have a higher priority than Martial for another class.

Dragoncat made a very good point about what they're doing with Martial.  I don't know if they're doing the same thing with other Power Sources though.  Many ideas in other power sources aren't as solidly different from each other, with a myriad of builds that might be worked on. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I disagree with a demigod base class.  Yes, it's a good fantasy staple.  But it ought to be like a feat chain + paragon path/epic destiny, not its own class.



I think it depends on the setting.  Most of the official settings are heading towards the gods not interacting with the world much (if at all), so stuff like Demigod and Avatar of Io epic destinies are probably going to be it.  In a setting based on or inspired by Greek mythology, Godborn makes a lot of sense.  Not all classes have to be equally present in all worlds, though.  I mean, Artificers probably wouldn't be as common in Dark Sun as they are in Eberron.

Plus, sorcerers already get their power from "my granpappy was (a dragon, a primordial, a tsunami, or autumn)."  It really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have a few rare individuals that claim to have their power from being the child of a god, and appear to be right.  It's kinda the Invoker response to Paladin: a defender class that gets their power from the gods themselves, instead of investure.  Instead of issuing divine challenges, the character has some aura of awesome that lets the baddies know "either attack me or bow down."  I could see the secondary role being striker (unlike the paladin's leader), the godborn wouldn't have much in the way of healing, but could focus the aura of awesome on a single enemy and let everyone else know "this fight is just between me and the guy I'm gonna take down before I finish this sentence."
Personally, I'd like to see a ranged psionic striker (I can easily see a couple of concepts for that).  I'd like to see more of the Shadow source too, as I really like the assasin.
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it.  That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it.  I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme.  Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best.  I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on.  And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me.  I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.
EDIT:  The above  statement still comes from the Races preview book where they say they wanted rave to play a bigger role in later game play then just at charater creation.  While there is a fair amount of options that point to them doing this, I personally feel they can still do alot more to live up to that claim.



I could have sworn that a developer mentioned that they had just dropped that idea for some reason or another. I realy wish that I could remember who said it and when they said it, but I'm pretty sure that races not playing the bigger role was because of an intentional decision by the developers.

Agreed, however, they are more like the Dragonmarked Feats, though not quite like Spellscarred. 

The have a fluff tied to important elements of Dark Sun.  You'd have to do some refluffing to put the Veilled Alliance or Templar themes into an Eberron or Forgotten Realms game.  The Elemental Cleric, Wilder, and Gladiator themes, on the other hand, are more generic. 

I want to see more of the generic themes, as well as a couple setting-specific ones for Eberron and Forgotten Realms.



Honestly I would say that Dark Sun themes are probably closer to FR backgrounds than anything else. I fully expect PHB4 to have rules for themes(although not neccesarily idetical to the ones presented in Dark Sun) along with generic ones for all settings.
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it.  That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it.  I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme.  Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best.  I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on.  And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me.  I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.



Well, for one thing, it is an Epic Destiny already. I agreed that if you want to aim for more of "WORSHIP ME!!!" then a Epic Destiny is better, but I'm going for "I'm no god, I just here to help"

When I said demigod in the class concept, I didn't mean it in a D&D sense so much as just the classic Greek myth sense. This class would be more for the Hercules and Jason types, I think if you wanted to play a more blasty Raiden type then Invoker is just a quick flavor tweak from what you need (Or maybe Sorcerer in the case of Ioun)
Ian.thomson, I agree that I'd like a setting with demigods as PCs - in fact, I really want to see it.  That said, I question if a class is best-suited for it.  I could imagine it as a feat tree, a path/epic destiny, or a theme.  Now, if you wanted only a Hercules-type demigod, yes, I think a class would be appropriate - but if you wanted something that could handle "child of Ioun and master of magic" just as readily as "son of Kord/Hercules" then I think a different approach would be best.  I imagine the former as a wizard with special features tacked on, while the second is a fighter or barbarian with features tacked on.  And the former wouldn't even feel like a defender to me.  I love the concept, but I think a different approach might be better-suited.



Well, for one thing, it is an Epic Destiny already. I agreed that if you want to aim for more of "WORSHIP ME!!!" then a Epic Destiny is better, but I'm going for "I'm no god, I just here to help"

When I said demigod in the class concept, I didn't mean it in a D&D sense so much as just the classic Greek myth sense. This class would be more for the Hercules and Jason types, I think if you wanted to play a more blasty Raiden type then Invoker is just a quick flavor tweak from what you need (Or maybe Sorcerer in the case of Ioun)




Actually, now I'm seeing Godborn/base class Demigod as a build of the Sorcerer rather than anything else.  It seems more like a Sorcerer concept than it's own class. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I really only want people to STFU about power sources already. It's the meta concept that has the least effect on the actual rules. Why is the Ranger not primal? Or rather, if he was, would it make any difference? No! Could the Necromancer be arcane? Sure! The bard martial? Why not?

Get. Over. It.

If we get new classes, we need interesting concepts. If and how that class fits in the source/role grid is secondary, important is that the class is unique in both flavor and mechanics. Stop looking at the damn grid, and start thinking about which fantasy archetypes (or D&D archetypes) aren't covered by the current ruleset.