What classes should my Horizon Walker take next?

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I'm trying to figure out what classes to level in for level 18-20, and what feats to look into. I have access to the core rulebooks, plus all the Complete and Races books. My character is a two-weapon flurrier, who's also into travel abilities. He fights unarmed, using a pair of enchanted gloves (ancestral relic).

Class: Monk 2 / Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Horizon Walker 7 (with shifting and tremmorsense) / Jaunter 4. Yes, Jaunter isn't in any of the allowed books I listed, but the DM allowed it. It basically gives a bunch of travel abilities (benign transposition, baleful transposition, teleport, dimension door, plane shift, freedom of movement) and nothing else.

BaB: +15

Ability scores before equipment: STR=14, DEX=22, CON=14, INT=14, WIS=14, CHA=6

Feats (including three bonus feats): Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, Stunning Fist(monk), Combat Reflexes(monk), Track(ranger), Endurance(ranger), Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Sun School, Two Weapon Rend, Water Splitting Stone (+4 vs DR), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (travel power -- this covers most of the jaunter abilities)

Combat Style: He uses both Flurry of Blows and Two-Weapon Fighting, to get six attacks per round. I plan to grab GTWF and Perfect TWF (epic) to bring that up to 10 at level 21 or so. Now that he has Quicken Spell Like Ability and an Anklet of Translocation, he'll be jumping right into combat to get in a bunch of hits. Unfortunately, his AC is quite low (25 with equipment), partially due to the low-treasure nature of this campaign.

Classes I'm considering:
1) I might finish up Horizon Walker, grabbing the Aligned, Fire and Cold abilities. Not the most exciting choice, but I'd get +3 BaB. This would also let me become an epic Horizon Walker, but there are very few epic classes wimpier than that.
2) I briefly considered Duskblade, so I could get a little extra damage (chill touch, etc), but my save DCs and spell resistence would be terrible. The swift spells could be nice. I couldn't get many levels though, without having an XP penalty.
3) Shadowdancer would get me a couple nice abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, but I really don't need any more Dimension Door at this point, and I'd lose a BaB. This might be a good choice for level 21+.
4) There's always Fighter for the extra feat...

Well the reason you havent gotten any responses I believe is that from what I see, your a melee type, trying to be a wizard, monk, and melee.  All your feats say your a dex based melee flanker, but from the rest of what you typed down, its not looking that way.  I personally believe you need to be more refined with your build instead of going every which way with it.  I dont believe TWF works with your fists.

On top of that, it looks like your a flanker who is using spells to flank with instead of melee, then you havent taken enough monk to be of use.  Horizon walker is good up until you get 'Dimension Door' every d4 rounds if I remember correctly.  I am sorry but your class combo and what your considering, then your feats, and what I am reading, doesnt exactly make any sense what so ever.  I highly suggest you talk your DM into allowing you to restart your character, BADLY!.

If thats the case and you want to be a flanker melee type, then I have several excellent idea's you could use.

I'm not trying to be a wizard. My only spell-like abilities are transportation-related. You're right that I'm trying to be a dex-based monk and melee fighter. The reason I took the flanking feats was to make up for the -4 penalty I get on all attacks. I would like to be a flanker, but I'm usually the only character in the party who stays in melee range.

The TWF with fists does work. Fists are considered light weapons.

It's likely that the DM will allow me to re-choose my feats soon. Any advice on that would be useful too.

There are basically two things I have been aiming for with this character so far:

1) As many attacks as possible, hitting as often as possible, and doing as much damage as possible. Weapon bonuses like magebane, holy and wounding have helped a lot with that.

2) Transportation. Teleporting around is useful, and fits the character's personality. Also, with Quicken Spell Like Ability, this lets me move around a lot in combat, and still get full attacks. Sun School can even get me one more attack than I deserve, if the DM allows it. I have had to take a lot of sub-optimal feats to make this work though (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack).


This character is far from optimized, I admit. His damage is entirely dependent on his weapon and the number of times he can hit. However, I'd like some advice on how to optimize the character for moving into epic levels.
i think your build is just fine ..... try this:

go with Shadowdancer 3 .... you will gain a lot ... then see if you can get into Void Incarnate PrC found here:

www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/200...


as for feats.... i would suggest this instead:

(i am assuming Human Race)

Weapon Finesse(human)
TWF(ranger)
Imp Grapple(monk)
Combat Reflexes(monk)
Track(ranger)
Endurance(ranger)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
ITWF
Vexing Flanker
Adaptable Flanker
Sun School
Robilars Gambit
Double Hit
Quicken Spell-Like Ability(Dimension Door)


since you will have a High Dex.... you will also have a lot of AoOs... if someone attacks you, you get to hit Back(with 2 attacks)

Laughing



Where is Double Hit?

And there's been an issue with Robilar's Gambit in our campaign. Basically, the DM has implied that if any of us take it, then every monster we encounter will have it. And since my character does less damage than most monsters (per hit), that would be painful.

Here are the downsides of shadowdancer. Do you still think it's worth it?
-1 BaB.
Bad will save (mine is not great as it is)
I already have Evasion and Darkvision
Summon Shadow is pretty worthless at my level, and can lose me XP
Double Hit[General, Fighter](Mini Handbook p25) reqs: Dexterity 17, Base Attack Bonus +6, Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting
Before you make an Attack of Opportunity, you may choose to attack with both weapons, taking the standard penalties for fighting with two weapons.


Shadowdancer is very nice..... especially if you take it before you take Underground Terrain mastery
.... also you can have your Shadow Flank for you..... or simply use Aid Another to give you bonuses to Attack, AC, or certain skill checks

why would every monster take it(Robilars Gambit)? .... are they all educated enough to have been taught it?(a Gambit is a tactical manuver(not a Martial Manuver(TOB)) similar to Two Weapon Rend)

i dont agree with your DM .... but if thats how he will rule... then simply try this instead:



Monk 2/ Ranger 3/ Fighter 1/ Horizon Walker 7/ Jaunter 4/ Pious Templar 3

not in that order...

Feats:

Weapon Finesse(human)
TWF(ranger)
Imp Grapple(monk)
Combat Reflexes(monk)
Track(ranger)
Endurance(ranger)
Dodge(fighter)
Mobility
Spring Attack
ITWF
Sun School
Quicken Spell-Like Ability(Dimension Door)
True Believer
Weapon Focus(unarmed Strike)
Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)(Pious Templar bonus)


thus you gain Mettle also...and Some minor spells

Laughing

The Rolibar's Gambit wasn't so much a ruling... as a threat.

I'll consider shadowdancer some more. What I get out of it might be worth the wasted abilities.

I don't think Pious Templar will work for my character. He's very much opposed to organized religion. Though Mettle and Weapon Specialization would be very nice. I'll have to ask my DM whether I can ignore the flavor part.

Oh, and Mini Handbook isn't one of the allowed books, so I can't take Double Hit.
If you want Mettle, but Pious Templar doesn't fit your flavor, look at Witch Slayer in the Tome of Magic. Hexblade 3 would also get it, if you can't use that book.
Dex-based melee type with lots of attacks, relying on teleportation effects? You might want to look into the art of shadowpouncing. Getting off a full attack after each dimdoor sounds like you might like it.

Look into this.
Not been on here to help others for a while.
What's wrong with another 3 levels of Horizon walker? (just make up some powers with the GM the same power as dimensions door every D4 rounds - rather than the rest of the stuff - etheral plane and something to do with invisibility maybe?)

Planar champion sounds like it may fit your chracter well - planar handbook - I think it gets see invisibilty and weapon specialisation.

Hey even fighter 3 (to get 2 feats, of which one is weapon specialiasation fists adding +2 to damaage with each attack!) sounds good, if you've got a LOT of attacks, and they connect, +2 an attack should help?

Or a rogue class? Get some sneak attack for all these flankings? +2d6 is better than +2
The DM won't let me add HW abilities, and planar handbook isn't allowed.

Fighter3 might work. Rogue could be good too, but I might save it for epic levels (so I don't lose the BaB)
I was suggesting (know player) War Shaper to try to improve his fist damage attacks. Though obviously he would somehow have to pick up a shapechange ability somewhere.

If you had a power/spell in your ancestral relic would that qualify you for the class? Certainly if you lost the relic you would lose the class abilities. But just trying to think of ways to enter the class as easily as possible. Our relics are like bonded items.

Putting Shapechange into the relic (1/day) would be a nice feature and if it allowed into the class would be a boost.

I believe there was another Shaper type class that improved unarmed/natural weapon attacks?

(note: our GM keeps threatening if anyone takes Robilars Gambit he will give it to all monsters/NPCs. So the PCs have been hesitant to take it... ;) - I almost took it this past level. )

PS: nice to see you back posting Carnivore, miss your builds.
Shapechange 1/day would cost at least 61,200gp (CL17 * SL9 * 2000 / 5), possibly 50% more to put it on a pair of gloves that already have other abilities. That's a big chunk out of the relic.

What are the requirements for War Shaper?

Hm... Maybe a 1/day Polymorph (11.2k gp) would be nice regardless... Or quickened Enlarge Person (2000gp if we assume the creator has Sudden Quicken?). That would probably be better, since any polymorph form would hurt my dexterity.


Syrkes -- you also suggested a class that would give me sorcerer spells. I realized that wouldn't work, because of the 6 charisma.
BA doesn't matter as much. as long as you get a +1 in 3 levels you'll have the 4 attacks for evermore.

Duelist could help AC. Each level you add one AC up to your Int bonus. If unarmoured, which as a monk you should be to flurry!
So in 3 levels this could be +3
Full BA.
Extra initiative
Extra AC for AoO for moving out of threatened squares (not sure if you'd do this?) 

If you can add items/effects - you have mage armour and shield on yes? +8 AC bang! As haste would help too! - another attack?!


Rage would help you, but may be an issue if you're a monk, not that you can't stop being Lawful (if you are)
Barbarian for rage
Bear warrior for Bear shape (think feats may be an issue here)
Warshaper afterwards?

Natures warrior added some fun shifting things, same book.


i fun build i would suggest .... use a Pixie

Pixie (+4 LA)

Ranger 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Horizon Walker 6/ Jaunter 4

Pixies will give you Flight and Greater Invisibility ....... combined with instantaneous Transport .... they are very useful .... you also get DR 10/ Cold Iron and SR 31 .... but best yet.... they give a Huge boost to Dex and you get 3 feats free(Weapon Finnesse, Dodge, Alertness)

the damage output may not be that high ...... but it should be very Playable and easy to contribute to the party in many areas

Laughing
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