1/25/2010 MM: "A Multikick in the Seat of the Pants"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning (after the holiday break) on magicthegathering.com.

"In Zendikar, all the spell-like effects on Allies were "enter the battlefield" effects. Worldwake introduces the idea of tap abilities on Allies. This was something we tried during Zendikar development (the Allies were redone during development). The play was a little more complex, so we chose to hold it off until the second set."


Oh really.


What does that make Sea Gate Loremaster, chopped liver?  That's distinctly a tap ability that's almost exactly the same as your example, Harabaz Druid.


"In Zendikar, all the spell-like effects on Allies were "enter the battlefield" effects. Worldwake introduces the idea of tap abilities on Allies. This was something we tried during Zendikar development (the Allies were redone during development). The play was a little more complex, so we chose to hold it off until the second set."


Oh really.


What does that make Sea Gate Loremaster, chopped liver?  That's distinctly a tap ability that's almost exactly the same as your example, Harabaz Druid.




Yeah, I'm sure all of us wanted to come on here and mention that.  Instead, I'm just going to pretend that a Worldwake card snuck its way into Zendikar.


Because we've come to the realization that the role of the second set isn't to reinvent the wheel. It's there to provide support for the wheel that was created the set before.



This looks like a good idea.  It seems like a good way to get around the problem of the disappointing third set... especially with the third set in this case being a large set. (Note: by disappointing third set I mean how in the past the third set tries to introduce new themes and is struck by two problems: 1) it's already had TWO sets ahead of it that have taken up design space and 2) any good ideas in the third set have to be completed within the set)

Mark, I considered Multikicker pretty innovate...until you reminded me of Izzet.


Dude...Dang.  Yeah, I'm not feelin' it as much now.


I still think it's cool, but to relate it to SO CLOSELY to the past makes me...sad.


Must be hard to work with Anti-Maro if you get hit by that a lot.


 

Nice article Mark, just one question (Going with Coandco two postings above): Why was Sea Gate Loremaster allowed to stay in Zendikar if Allies with Tap-abilities were held off for Worldwake?

Kicker and multikicker are still horrible names for fantasy game mechanics. It sounds like they should be in a sports-related TCG.

when I first heard about multikicker, I thought "hey it's repli-kicker".  sounds good to me!  I always liked replicate, and this version gets to be on permanents as well as spells.  I don't think anybody really complained when Evoke appeared so soon afer Channel - not least because Evoke worked much better (Evoke could get both effects, Evoke could trigger CITP effects while only using the spell half).

and yes I agree that kicker and many of the older mechanics (flashback, buyback, threshold etc) don't sound very Magic'y - but I think the standards have changed.  modern mechanics are designed more with flavour in mind (dredge, hellbent, devour, soulshift, wither, ninjutsu!!), so kicker suddenly looks a bit aged.

I wonder if they considered rebadging kicker - like they did with fear --> intimidate or fading --> vanishing (modulo minor rules changes)...
i agree about the small sets not needing to innovate. i think the second set would be better much of the time as simple support with a twist.

My answer was that he was correct, but only for a tiny sliver of cards. The direct X spell equivalent only applies when the kicker increments are in batches of one and the multikicker cost is a single colorless mana. If the batches have other increments or the multikicker costs involve colored mana, it becomes a lot harder to express the cards using an X. This is why there is very little "multikicker 1" in the set, and when you do see it, the effect isn't simply notching up the effect by 1.

 


what you don't point out (perhaps deliberately) is that spells with multikicker 1 that already have X in their cost are identical to XY spells, which are considered so ridiculous that they have been lampooned several times, even by wotc (The Ultimate Nightmare of Wizards of the Coast® Customer Service). stuff like comet storm seems both excessively complex and kind of silly to me.


and related to this, cards like everflowing chalice have absolutely no reason to have multikicker, as there are simple preexisting ways of costing those kinds of cards.


copied from arcana post:


stone idol trap: no idea why this is red. putting defensive cards into play, easier to play the more you're being attacked, 6/12? this all feels pretty white, and potentially white/green or white/blue. being able to attack with it next turn is reddish, but it's just as green as red, and this card simply makes no sense with a monored cost. as a red/white gold card, it would be fine. the decision to make this red baffles me.


Mark, I considered Multikicker pretty innovate...until you reminded me of Izzet.


Dude...Dang.  Yeah, I'm not feelin' it as much now.


I still think it's cool, but to relate it to SO CLOSELY to the past makes me...sad.


Must be hard to work with Anti-Maro if you get hit by that a lot.


 




Magic repeats itself a lot more often than this. Kicker itself was around more recently than replicate.  Evoke was just kicker in reverse, and that appeared in the set right after kicker (very little in Lorwyn was actually original). They aren't reinventing the wheel all that often, if at all. Most block mechanics are just a take on other block mechanics.
Multikicker is not that exciting in and of itself, but from what I see they have made a subset of cards more dynamic and it is good for the game to have cards like this. It serves its purpose.
I just wanted to ask what the heck this card is supposed to be flavor wise.  Is there some folk lore I don't know about? 
I wonder if any Zendikar cards were originally multi-kicker but lost the ability. It seems to me that Rite of Replication might have been designed as multi-kicker, and then switched to just kicker for  balance reasons.

 (The famous "   [CENSORED]    without    [CENSORED]   " turns out to be "kicker without limits.")


I know this has been said a million times before, but RAGE!!!

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
xb0vuv8lxb_EN.jpgImage.ashx?multiverseid=48103&type=card

Seems like R&D is overestimating Allies just a little bit.  That extra two mana simply says they are afraid of their own ideas.
I guess I should begin by making sure you understand what multikicker does.


Insulting...
The mechanic had two big issues that kept coming up.


The TWO issues were that it was like something else and that it was similar to something else.  I.E. the problem is that this mechanic is hackeneyed in a couple ways.  This is not innovation.  This is someone handing you the same dish with a different garnishment and suggesting that it tastes twice as good now that parsley is on the plate.  But even so it seems like what Mark Rosewater is doing is suggesting that the dish isn't really even better, just slightly different because of the parsley...
My job is to figure out how to do things we've done but in a slightly different way so they feel fresh and new.


Rosewater just admitted that his occupation consists of duping the playerbase into a false sense of novelty when in reality they're simply repackaging the good ole days of Magic... and tinkering with the relative power levels of cards (read: making green creatures stronger for the kiddies).


Landfall on instants, forces you to play bad Magic (instants during your turn) or afford a prerequisite amount of expensive fetchlands.

The new Jace, one of the bottom planeswalkers to exist.  An ultimate that requires 5 activation of an ability that doesn't affect the board, a defensive measure that instantly puts it into shock range in a format with lightning bolt and bloodbraid elf, and a brainstorm ability that entices you until you realize that Garruk, Elspeth, Ajani Vengeant, even Nissa are better choices to play.  He's indefensible nature means you'll have to run another color to back him up and then you'll be losing anyhow because you have the audacity to run islands in Standard.

And if anyone has looked at the spoilers available online, these cards are further pushing the envelope of creature power while still presenting mockeries of old control spells.

I would like Magic to just pronounce control (old control not these mid-range bant decks) as dead in Standard (and soon in Extended as the rotations arive) and allow us older players to officially retreat to Legacy, EDH, Vintage, another card game.  Somewhere where poor card design and mass-market appeal aren't ruining the skill-level required to win. 

Anecdotally, have you ever watched the last round or a PTQ in Standard as a Mono green deck and a Green-White aggro went head-to-head (Last T2 season)?  Did you stay awake the whole time?  Congratulations you have what it takes to play curent Magic.  Have you ever watched the Jund mirror match and cheered when someone flipped a game breaking spell?  Why'd you cheer?


The new Jace, one of the bottom planeswalkers to exist.  An ultimate that requires 5 activation of an ability that doesn't affect the board,


Why would you ever play Jace's ultimate?

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.


Seems like R&D is overestimating Allies just a little bit.  That extra two mana simply says they are afraid of their own ideas.



You can potentially get more playing 2 Allys than you could playing 2 regular soldiers. 2 mana is appropriate for your potential gains.

With just one of the common allies from Zendikarv on the field  you just got 2  creatures and gave a creature +2/+2 permanently.  

If you're using them for flash blockers, one other ally  when you play this could mean they both have first strike, flying or you just gained 6 life.
With one of the rares you potentially just put out 2 3/3s at instant speed, while buffing another creature, Given your blockers protection from 2 colors, dealt 3 damage to two other  creatures, or just put 2 more 2/2 wolves into play.

Creature type matters. If it was put two slivers into play in a sliver heavy block, it would probably cost 4 as well.


oh noes! it's been SOOOOOOOOOOOO long since control was powerful i can't even REMEMBER when it was! i think maybe someone played 5 color control or cryptic command 12 years ago but it's so far in the past the memory is hazy. Cry

Creature type matters. If it was put two slivers into play in a sliver heavy block, it would probably cost 4 as well.



i think this sums it up pretty well. and two allies at instant speed is potentially much worse than two slivers at instant speed, as many allies are basically going to fire off spells as soon as they come into play. in a decently built deck, those two allies are going to be 2/2s or bigger anyway.
it's been SOOOOOOOOOOOO long since control was powerful i can't even REMEMBER when it was!

Mark, I considered Multikicker pretty innovate...until you reminded me of Izzet.


Dude...Dang.  Yeah, I'm not feelin' it as much now.


I still think it's cool, but to relate it to SO CLOSELY to the past makes me...sad.


Must be hard to work with Anti-Maro if you get hit by that a lot.



Primitive Justice has multikicker! Really, word-for-word multikicker.

And even when I was a kid, I said "Hey, Taste of Paradise is just an X spell!" And I was the last person to figure it out. Or I was the only person it wasn't obvious to. That card is so bad compared to Stream of Life unless you cast it for exactly 6 or 8 mana. Haha.
This is not innovation.  This is someone handing you the same dish with a different garnishment and suggesting that it tastes twice as good now that parsley is on the plate.  But even so it seems like what Mark Rosewater is doing is suggesting that the dish isn't really even better, just slightly different because of the parsley...



Yeah, this is probably one of the my biggest complaints with new Magic sets.  Not only do they bring back cycling and kicker what seems like every year (to the point where they are essentially core keywords like first strike and flying), they also keep printing kicker variants and marketing them as new features.  It's not that I dislike them, it's that I can't stand when a new set uses one of these contrived abilities to fill the quota of "new keywords that are a part of this set."  They then put this new keyword on all the staple spells (burn, card drawing) and a third of the set is already designed for them. 

So far, the only thing new about Zendikar is landfall.  Oh, and allies, which I never cared much for.  It's sort of like tribal except there's only one tribe- allies- and they are all lords... and I get bored pretty fast because half of them are just Bramblewood Paragons anyway. 

But back to landfall. 

Landfall on instants, forces you to play bad Magic (instants during your turn) or afford a prerequisite amount of expensive fetchlands.



Yeah, pretty much.  I like landfall in theory because it's an ability that triggers when/if you play your land drop for the turn.  But the fetchlands ruined it.  They made it so that landfall cards are only good if you play with mulitple copies of these 5 expensive rare cards from one set that are so good as to give you HUGE bonuses for 1 life (read: free) rather than the standard cost of 1 mana (panoramas) or a tapped land (terramorphic expanse) at a reasonable rarity.  No one likes when they have to buy rare lands to support a manabase, but it's even worse when these lands both fix your mana AND give you a free landfall trigger which can easily translate into 4-8 extra damage to your opponent. 

This is why landfall and cascade, which are "free" abilities from a design standpoint, are the most dominant decks in standard right now, just like affinity was a few years ago. 

Does this mean Soul Burn and Drain Life becomes a Multi-Kicker card? Both started off as 2 and 1 casting costs, with the option to pay more mana in the text bokx. (Probably not, but I like to stir the pot.)

EDIT

And in the defense of Kicker's inclusion in this set: it fits. Like MaRo said, a block based around playing lands will have lots of mana available. A keyword like Affinity or Kicker allows cards to be played both early and later. Why not tweak pre-exisiting technology when it suits your needs, instead of re-inventing the wheel?

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Landfall on instants, forces you to play bad Magic (instants during your turn)



no card or mechanic "forces you to play bad magic." that kind of thinking is ridiculous. a good player uses the cards they have to play good magic. end of story. being faced with a difficult (or not) decision to make doesn't force you to do anything. it just tests your ability to play.

or afford a prerequisite amount of expensive fetchlands.



fetchlands aren't the only cards that put lands onto the battlefield at instant speed. terramorphic expanse, bant panorama and the other panoramas, the always exciting harrow, khalni heart expedition, knight of the reliquary, frontier guide, and even path to exile and skyward eye prophets (with some ponder type action) can do it. many of those options are dirt cheap.

on the off chance you were talking about being competitive in standard or something, i have to say that these spells have absolutely nothing to do with standard being expensive.

And even when I was a kid, I said "Hey, Taste of Paradise is just an X spell!" And I was the last person to figure it out. Or I was the only person it wasn't obvious to. That card is so bad compared to Stream of Life unless you cast it for exactly 6 or 8 mana. Haha.



one of us must misunderstand the card, because from what i can see, taste of paradise is nearly strictly better. it's harder to use outside of monogreen, can't gain an opponent life (lol, kinda limited use there), and it can't be cast to gain you 1 or 2 life (although casting stream of life for 1 or 2 life is actually a terrible use of the card since you can spend less to gain more life with cards in both green and white). so besides those somewhat minor issues paradise either gains the same or more life than stream of life. at 4 it gains 3 (stream gains 3), at 6 it gains 6 (stream gains 5), at 8 it gains 9 (stream gains 7), at 10 it gains 12 (stream gains 9), etc. so, looks pretty good in comparison.

were you talking about the color restriction? because that's really the only negative i can see, but it seems fair when you look at the higher efficiency, so i wouldn't call it "so bad" in comparison.

Landfall on instants, forces you to play bad Magic (instants during your turn)



Dear Unholybeaver,

  Since you currently are listed as having only 1 post on the boards, I'll assume that you're new to this.  Unfortunately, others who should know better agreed with you, so I must elaborate for your benefit and for their's.
  There is no such thing as "forces you to play bad Magic".  Instances like this do exactly the opposity: they allow the more skillful player to outplay a less skillful player.  The more skillful player knows when it is better to play the instant like a sorcery and when it is better to save it for the instant trick.  Players who always play all their instants as sorceries are unskilled players, but those that always play them as instants are also unskilled... they're just more skilled than the first group.  The best players know when it is best to play all of their spells, or lands, or when to attack, or whatever.
  Your argument has been debunked many many times already in older discussions.  The point is "forces you to play bad Magic" is wrong.  In fact, it's so wrong, because what it actually does is make the game more interesting since the optimal play requires more thought and consideration for things like "what's in play?" and "what's in my deck?" and "what might be in my opponent's deck?" instead of the simple "Oh... I burn my opponent during his/her end step".

EDIT: Gah... beat by quitequieter!
I'll get the ranty stuff out of the way first, I guess.

The Ally stuff is probably going to be decent in limited but seems too narrow and overcosted for me to care about in constructed, where most of my decks are going to have a really tight mana curve.

Allies previewed so far seem to be overcosted and small for the most part. A previous user already 'raised' the Raise the Alarm comparison...this is looking more and more like the Kithkin disaster of previous sets. Thoughtweft Trio looked great, sure...but I don't want to have to care about creature types when I build a deck. I just want to use the best stuff and go to town with it. Again Mark, I beg you to stop making stuff so narrow it its use. It's boring and it's irritating. Just make stuff "Instants" or whatnot without consideration of Tribal issues.

The Landfall mechanic is great though. I've latched onto it precisely because it feeds off the new "Fetchlands" etc. Zendikar actually brought me back to Standard and Extended (with mixed results, tourneywise, to be sure) but the second set is leaving me cold (as most second sets seem to, oddly enough) outside of a few cards I'll want for multiplayer.

Again, stop going all nuts for your current pet tribal mania. It was Kithkin last, now it's Allies...I don't care about Allies. I'll care about it for the limited portion of the drafts I'm in then it'll be a bunch of overcosted crap while I hunt down the chase rares needed for my decks.

*rant over*

The trap is a clever combat trick to be sure...your opponent has attackers and you get a 6/12 into play that blocks their largest guy. Not seeing a lot of play for this guy on your turn though, sadly (unless I'm missing something).



The new Jace will be a chase card, hopefully I can swap it for the new Vampire for my EDG Mono-Black deck...

Looking forward to the pre-release!
Mark Rosewater said,
(The famous "[CENSORED] without [CENSORED]" turns out to be "kicker without limits.")


When I saw kicker in Zendikar, I had guessed that the censored statement was "kicker without multicolor." Though Invasion block had a few cards with colorless or same-color kicker costs, kicker in Invasion mainly rewarded access to an extra color of mana.

Yeah, this is probably one of the my biggest complaints with new Magic sets.  Not only do they bring back cycling and kicker what seems like every year (to the point where they are essentially core keywords like first strike and flying), they also keep printing kicker variants and marketing them as new features.  It's not that I dislike them, it's that I can't stand when a new set uses one of these contrived abilities to fill the quota of "new keywords that are a part of this set."  They then put this new keyword on all the staple spells (burn, card drawing) and a third of the set is already designed for them.



While the particular keyword differs from set to set, the concept of an optional extra cost to get an extra effect out of a spell is essentially an evergreen mechanic. It does not matter if we call it kicker, multikicker, buyback, conspire, devour, entwine, evoke, or replicate, or write the cost out in text like with Primitive Justice, or scale effects to the size of X like with Martial Coup, they are the same idea. Some variants of the extra-effect idea, such as madness, morph, and sunburst, are significantly different and creative that I like how they re-invent kicker every set. But mostly, the different keywords are to package everything into one small mental bundle. Throwing the full range of kicker abilities into one block would overwhelm the new players.

Let's face it, a keyword or block mechanic has to fit onto many different cards. Creatures get all sorts of combat-oriented keywords, such as flying, first strike, lifelink, and exalted, and size-based mechanics, such as +1/+1 counters. Permanents get some remain-in-play mechanics, such as cumulative upkeep and vanishing, and some interaction mechanics such as tribal. However, the only thing that spells in general have in common is being cast. So Wizards of the Coast created a boatload of mechanics and keywords about cheaper casting, alternatives to casting, casting from places besides the hand, and extra effects for casting. The block mechanics overlap because the design variants of casting are limited, unless they go for complex mechanics like suspend that require six lines of reminder text.

Thus, it is no surprise that multikicker overlapped with X-spells and replicate. Come on, Mr. Rosewater, you are being too soft on your nemesis Mark Gottlieb. Find a version of kicker that makes him sweat, such as kicker on land cards.
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