1/21/2010 TD: "Cup Runneth Over"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Top Decks, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Everflowing Chalice + a mountain + fireball + your foot = first turn win. Boy do I want to kick this card twenty times.

I wonder if kicking a card will end up bending it or leaving marks?
Mike had a tough job trying to sell Everflowing Chalice.  It was pretty clear he was about as impressed with this thing as I was.  I'm surprised the artifact didn't at least offer SOME use at 0 cost besides being something to sac.  There is a card that Everflowing Chalice would work well with: Energy Chamber, which automatically puts a charge counter on a non-creature artifact every upkeep.  Additionally, maybe something like Channel could be used to power this thing up early in a Vintage deck.  Or... just find your Sol Ring.
The card you're thinking of is Sisay's Ring.
Looks like a solid card.  I'm trying to figure out if it fits into my Karn EDH deck.  I don't see why it couldn't have cost XX, though, instead of the multikicker thing.
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My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Well, this card seems not that good.  Or you have a 2-mana bad Mind Stone, or a 4-mana Sisay's Ring/Ur-Golem's Eye.  Ur-Golem's Eye hasn't seen much play.  At 6 mana, it gives 3 colorless, which is worse than Guilded Lotus.  The real plus for Everflowing Chalice is that you can choose what to do with it.  

Everflowing Chalice is playable, but I'm not impressed.  I'd rather have a Mind Stone, Talisman, Myr, ...
Why? I know R&D likes to make tons of new key words, but this would just as well with a mana cost (X)(X) and comes into play with a number of charge counters equal to X.
Gilder Bairn


Why? I know R&D likes to make tons of new key words, but this would just as well with a mana cost (X)(X) and comes into play with a number of charge counters equal to X.


Good point.
And Multikicker sounds horrible. I find it hard enough to use cards that say kicker, but Multikicker is just awful. I'm going to try avoiding them where possible.
Why multikicker for this card? Because other cards in this set use multikicker that actually need to use it, so there's no reason not to.

While this card is not overpowered when cast at 2 mana or 4 mana - which is why it saw print - you certainly get more for each 2 mana you spend on it than you would for, say, one of the Mana Battery cards. I like this card; it's a nice option to have around, and I hope it eventually finds its way to the Core Set someday.

I'm also glad that it's at uncommon.

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I agree that it doesn't have to be fantastic; it simply fills a position that no other card currently fills in standard, with some nice potential of its own. You can't make colored mana or cycle it, but you can use it to power out Inkwell Leviathans, Darksteel Colossi or huge Banefires in the late game, effectively increasing your mana production by 50% all by itself.

Esper artifact decks might get some mileage out of it; after all, Esperzoa, Master Transmuter and Master of Etherium all love free artifacts, and you can play it for free, bounce it later and then play it with value when you have mana to spare. It even plays nicely with all three Tezzeret modes - it's handy to untap, free to fetch and just as lethal as any other artifact when he unleashes the blue fury.

But just to make sure I've got it right - it doesn't really interact with Etherium Sculptor, does it?

But just to make sure I've got it right - it doesn't really interact with Etherium Sculptor, does it?


No, it does. Cost reductions are taken into account after any additional costs (like Kicker and its cousins) are.

But just to make sure I've got it right - it doesn't really interact with Etherium Sculptor, does it?


No, it does. Cost reductions are taken into account after any additional costs (like Kicker and its cousins) are.

Cool. Unlikely to matter much, but it means increased synergy in the aforementioned esper deck. T1 borderpost T2 Scupltor T3 Chalice with two counters T4 Tezzeret untap chalice Master of Etherium T5 go nuts? Sounds like fun.
Why? I know R&D likes to make tons of new key words, but this would just as well with a mana cost (X)(X) and comes into play with a number of charge counters equal to X.



The subtle difference between them is Everflowing Chalice will always have a CMC of 0, while an XX cost (Chalice of the Void) changes while it's on the stack.

Also, there are two more hits in the Orb for "kicked" than there are for "multikicker", so if anything keys off another spell being kicked, this will be relevant.
Gilder Bairn

Multikicker sounds horrible. I find it hard enough to use cards that say kicker, but Multikicker is just awful. I'm going to try avoiding them where possible.



I'm rather curious about this statement.  What exactly is it you don't like?  The word?  The templating of the definition?  The mechanic itself?  You've got me curious.  :D
If this Chalice helps blue control as Mike Flores seems to be implying he thinks it will, then I wonder if we'll see U/B decks that use Vampire Hexmage for the mirror.  That little witch is just getting better and better, no?
As has been stated before, this card is very mediocre.  Because mana accel like this is generally most useful early in the game, it will usually be played at 2, making it significantly worse than Mind Stone or Signet.  There is some potential for it being used at 4 later in the game, say if you have 6 mana, and a counter in hand.  But then it only gives you 9 mana on 7 turn, unless control gets some other great spells, this isn't going to go anywhere.  And the fact that it only produces colorsless sucks. 
At four mana, Everflowing Chalice gives us a tool kind of halfway between Worn Powerstone and Thran Dynamo (two cards you have probably never heard of ... or at least not considered much over the past ten years).



with cube getting more and more popular, i think that more people than you think may have heard of those cards. tom lapille's cube runs both according to its last update. they are both decent options for the non-powered cube, and probably for a powered cube if it's big enough.
This card has some interaction with trinket mage that may be important as well, being a zero casting cost.  Hadn't seen anyone mention that yet.
While Everflowing Chalice is not impressive by any means on the power level aspect, I think it's an interesting design, even if the use of multikicker here seems forced. Above all, slower Standard non-green decks were really in need of a two-mana accelerator artifact at the moment, so I'm very happy we're gonna have it even if it's nothing special in-and-of-itself (Go Go turn 3 Jace, The Mindsculptor!). Also, I feel the scaling effect might be more relevant than many think in powering up late game spells.
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Why? I know R&D likes to make tons of new key words, but this would just as well with a mana cost (X)(X) and comes into play with a number of charge counters equal to X.




lol. Good point. XD

But still, the fact that the mana does not empty or the fact that the card does not get removed is great. People love signets and this just gives them a +1.
Why? I know R&D likes to make tons of new key words, but this would just as well with a mana cost (X)(X) and comes into play with a number of charge counters equal to X.



The subtle difference between them is Everflowing Chalice will always have a CMC of 0, while an XX cost (Chalice of the Void) changes while it's on the stack.

Also, there are two more hits in the Orb for "kicked" than there are for "multikicker", so if anything keys off another spell being kicked, this will be relevant.



Well, no one is perfect, but I think R&D may over complicate things. They could have just kept using kicker and added "This card can be kick any number of times." It may save on space in the rules text for cards, but they'll keep on bloating the rule until they have to trim it down again as they just did and have done.
Cool. Something new to sac a hexmage to.
an excellent card
although they took out the citanul flutes, alladin's rings, planar portals
platinum angel is nice but nothing that keeps churning out card advantage a la budde's aperture

wait! djinni of wishes is here to save us!!!!
1) I'm annoyed that ur-golem's eye wasn't mentioned for comparison.

2) I see this more for:
-artifact decks (largely colorless ones, not esper), where someone will find something nasty to do with it.
-decks that already produce large amounts of mana (such as landfall), for the sake of juicing up their largest spells (conquerer's pledge, rite of replication, martial coup, X spells such as banefire). These all share a common element of having a lot of colorless mana in their cost (kicker or otherwise)

And of course, solely from a funny perspective, doubling season (a 1:1 ratio is much nicer then 2:1.) Maybe a casual deck looking to run rediculous artifacts
Another way to look at the chalice: "Your mana pool doesn't empty this turn. However, you can only carry over half of your mana to the next turn in this way. You can still spend the other half of your mana this turn." In that sense, it works like a mana storage spell.

While Dark Ritual-like cards like Mana Vault have been popular, cards that "store up" mana to use for a big X-spell next turn have not been so popular in the past. However, that could be because there weren't any cards that had the flexibility to provide both a quick ramp effect in the early game, and a huge X-spell or kicker spell in the late game. 

Also, "storing up" for a huge spell next turn doesn't involve completely skipping a turn, as you can tap the Chalice the turn it comes into play. You could leave just 1 mana up and still play a power-sink like effect or some burn spell.

Compared to Mind Stone, if you build mana sinks into your deck, this card should be just as useful in the late game as Mind Stone's sac-to-draw ability was, especially if the mana sinks are card-advantageous. Mind Spring comes to mind, but I'd also like to see how this works with Multikicker spells that can target multiple targets. 

Currently, there are some spells that are good in the mid-game and devastating in the late game, like Fireball and Rite of Replication. I think these cards have potential for main-deckability, but are just being outclassed by card advantage and speed of Cascade. If cascades leaves the environment, these cards might become more playable and will work well with the flexible acceleration/storage of the Chalice.
 
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The way I see it, Chalice + Coretapper = turn three Guile (or any of the number of other crazy cards).

This card could work well with Coretapper. It'd be "two for the price of one" if you play Coretapper after, and immediately sac it. or you can wait and add a counter every turn for more mana.

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