Dragon 383 - Debut: Hybrid Characters

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Did I miss the Hybrid Talent feat in there somewhere?
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no, it wasn't present, would have like to see

Special: You can select Hybrid Talent more than once, it's effects do not stack, each time you choose Hybrid Talent it applies to a different talent choice. 
The feat wasn't explicit.  However, in every class description, it sort of describes in the Hybrid Talent Options section of each class.
<\ \>tuntman
Personally, I'd have loved a version of Hybrid Talent that you could take at least twice.

(Paragon Hybridization notwithstanding)
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
Is this version RPGA legal?  Both the other versions specifically had a note saying it wasn't, but as near as I can tell, this falls under 'Debut Articles' which means that unless I missed something I can play a Hybrid tomorrow.
Personally, I'd have loved a version of Hybrid Talent that you could take at least twice.


I don't think there's any chance of that happening.
<\ \>tuntman
Personally, I'd have loved a version of Hybrid Talent that you could take at least twice.


I don't think there's any chance of that happening.



Except for the fact that it is right in there. You just have to give up a paragon path for it.

I'm looking through this, and are there ANY differences in this version in comparison to the last playtest other than adding artificer?
Except for the fact that it is right in there. You just have to give up a paragon path for it.


That is true, but the Veok was referring the ability to take it twice without the need for paragon hybrid.

I'm looking through this, and are there ANY differences in this version in comparison to the last playtest other than adding artificer?


The hybrid paladin no longer has lay on hands.  I suspect this is due to the fact that LOH and the options are not exactly defender abilities.  Who knows?  Perhaps it could be a typo.  Also, some martial hybrid class features and HT options have been renamed to reference MP2 character options.
<\ \>tuntman
From the updated character builder, it seems you can't take Hybrid talent more than once...

-Enaloindir 
From the updated character builder, it seems you can't take Hybrid talent more than once...

-Enaloindir 


Feats cannot be taken more than once unless the feat specifically states that you can.
<\ \>tuntman
Yeah, only once.

I can't say I'm a fan of this system.  Too many losses for only tiny gains.  The best hybrids stay within their role, due to shared stats and similar powers... and most of the rest are useless.  Who would want to give up all of their useful class features, and halfish of their powers, for half of the powers from another class, and maybe 1 class feature.

I'd also like to point out that despite the crusade against heavy armor and light armor class combos, barbarian/sorcerers with the barbarian agility feature (requires the talent, but meh) get stupid high AC bonuses with little effort.  Guess they missed that one.  Barbarian sorcerers (Str/Cha) are actually one of the more viable hybrids, but again, both striker classes, so its not that exciting.

I'm also disappointed that if you are a divine/divine hybrid, you still miss out on the entire channel divinity feature, and the hybrid talent doesn't even come close to restoring that, at the expense of using it for anything else.

Finally, I do agree with the observation that Ranger/druids might be an interesting choice for druids who grew rather fond of their animal companions in 3E.  That being said, Wizards will need to release many more Beast attacks for rangers that do not require the Ranger to make a Strength based attack roll, as these are definately not attractive to a druid who has given up so much of their class.  There is, I think, one beast attack that allows the ranger(druid) to make a BASIC melee attack, which is much more interesting to hybrids because wild shape at-will powers can be used as a basic attack.  But that's a single power.

 In summary, I shall say that although the system is interesting, I think it fails to capture the imagination of those looking for viable hybrid combinations ala 3E 'fusion' multiclassing (and I don't mean broken, just viable), and while it might be a good system for players looking to simply improve their backstory or role-playing, they probably didn't wait for published rules anyways.  I'll give it a 3/10 for effort.
I can't say I'm a fan of this system.  Too many losses for only tiny gains.  The best hybrids stay within their role, due to shared stats and similar powers... and most of the rest are useless.  Who would want to give up all of their useful class features, and halfish of their powers, for half of the powers from another class, and maybe 1 class feature.


I think there are quite number of people who like to dip into multiple classes.  One player in my group plays a hybrid in both of our campaigns.  One of his hybrid characters is also multiclassed.  He's by no means optimal, but neither is our group anyway.  His character ideas are rather unusual and the hybrid rules are just perfect for him.

If you are looking for mechanical game advantage, there are a few hybrids that work really well.  Most are not very optimal and some may not be very good at all.  This is stressed in the debut and playtest articles.  I don't think that they designed hybrids to kick butt on the battlegrid.
<\ \>tuntman
no, it wasn't present, would have like to see

Special: You can select Hybrid Talent more than once, it's effects do not stack, each time you choose Hybrid Talent it applies to a different talent choice. 



I agree. I think the only way hybrid classes are at all interesting is allowing the hybrid talent feat to be taken more than once. Every cool thing I could think to do with hybrids was defeated due to only being able to take the feat once.  I think the heavy feat tax on hybrid characters would make up for the potential power gain, as the class features themselves are already scales back into hybrid versions. 
I agree. I think the only way hybrid classes are at all interesting is allowing the hybrid talent feat to be taken more than once. Every cool thing I could think to do with hybrids was defeated due to only being able to take the feat once.


If you want to take the hybrid talent feat twice, you can always choose the Paragon Tier Hybrid option.

I think the heavy feat tax on hybrid characters would make up for the potential power gain, as the class features themselves are already scales back into hybrid versions.


Not all class features of the hybrid classes are scaled back.  Many of them are full class features.  There are also some hybrid classes where two of the hybrid talent options are well worth spending a feat on and would be considered amongst the best feats in the game if anyone can take them.
<\ \>tuntman
Not all class features of the hybrid classes are scaled back.  Many of them are full class features.  There are also some hybrid classes where two of the hybrid talent options are well worth spending a feat on and would be considered amongst the best feats in the game if anyone can take them.



Thats true, except in this case you're spending a feat to gain what a single-class character would already get.  If that, since many of the hybrid talent choices are ALSO scaled back from the full class features.  Commanding presence once per encounter, for instance.

I would agree that allowing Hybrid Talent to be taken more than once seems like a good compromise for those who find hybrid characters uninspiring.  In many cases there are only 3-4 options you can take anyways, since you'll only be taking the best armor option, not both.  If the most abusable part of this is that fighter/rogues who take both weapon talent options get an extra boost to attack rolls (with daggers.  just daggers.) then I think we're doing ok.  Of course, you could do that with the current system by being a paragon hybrid, but why would you when you can just take the Kensai paragon path and be REALLY broken without even taking Hybrid Talent once.

Oh, I did think of one other thing while I was typing this, which is: A hybrid character gets the Hybrid Talent feat as a bonus feat at level 1.  (and can't take it more than once barring paragon hybrid as usual).

At least that way you get a bit of oomph without giving up your level 1 feat.  doesn't seem too gamebreaking.



I would have put just a list of hybrid feature for each class, each feature roughly balanced whit each other, and let the players choose one from each class at the character creation. Hybrid talent would add an extra one, and hybrid paragon a last, 4th, feature.
This will allow for some nice combo, at the moment some class combo is still largely weak. (Druid get shapechange. What if Ilike more the controller/artillery druid? A lost feature.)
Actually Play'ng: Nothing. My old party is full of short-sighted racists and sexists (on their own admission), so I left.
Oh, I did think of one other thing while I was typing this, which is: A hybrid character gets the Hybrid Talent feat as a bonus feat at level 1.  (and can't take it more than once barring paragon hybrid as usual).

At least that way you get a bit of oomph without giving up your level 1 feat.  doesn't seem too gamebreaking.



In order for me to support giving HT for free at level 1, I have to be convinced that every hybrid character must take HT as its first feat.  I have seen one example where this is not the case (a fighter-paladin/ranger build).  I believe that there are other builds where you don't need to take HT right away.  I would say that at some point, players will likely take the HT feat, but since it can be delayed, it would lead me to believe that it is not absolutely essential all of the time.  For this reason, I don't think HT needs to be given automatically.

I also do not feel that the HT not being given for free is really discouraging players from playing hybrid character.
<\ \>tuntman
Another option to using the Paragon Hybrid option is to take Twofold Pact at 11th level. According to RAW, this allows a warlock to select a second pact and grants you the boon pact and at-will attack associated with BOTH. 

Now, as written this is perhaps over powered when applied to a Hybrid, since this would essentially give you two boon pacts plus a third class feature (if you opted to not take the pact boon when you took Hybrid talent).

This has been discussed briefly in the following thread already:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...