1/18/2010 Feature: "Worldwake: A Plane in Revolt"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Great article Doug, love the creature.

Hate that you tried to justify the removal of manaburn within it.

The card easily could have said that green mana doesn't cause mana burn (just like it says that mana doesn't drain, which is equally "rules" intensive for scrubs).

I kept saying Wizards needs to find new design space in green.

This is what happens when they do. Awesome stuff. I don't care that it's monogreen, I am DEFINITELY making an EDH deck around this card, and I'll be damned if I don't. I don't care if the card has memory issues, it's still my favorite designed card of the year.

The Spike in me is not wholly impressed.

The Timmy in me is crying in gleeful joy.

A very well made card, overall.
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
I note that Upwelling specifically says that mana pools don't empty at the end of turns, whereas Omnath doesn't mention turns ending.  Why was this?  Does Omnath not actually preserve green mana across turns; or was this an oversight; or was this done intentionally to fit the ability onto two lines despite the ambiguity?
I note that Upwelling specifically says that mana pools don't empty at the end of turns, whereas Omnath doesn't mention turns ending.  Why was this?  Does Omnath not actually preserve green mana across turns; or was this an oversight; or was this done intentionally to fit the ability onto two lines despite the ambiguity?


It says your pool doesn't empty at the end of steps, and the turn ending is the end step. Your mana pool doesn't empty at the end of the end step, so it's still around the next turn.

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Quotes
57051078 wrote:
I just love how focused the YMtC community is.
56901828 wrote:
That's what I love about posting on these forums. Everyone's an expert(except for me).
57031358 wrote:
really no need to be so bitchy.
58021268 wrote:
@Edacade: Awright kid you go on ahead and do your thing and don't let anyone tell you different y'hear
58335208 wrote:
City of Asymmetrical Beings Land :T:, sacrifice a creature: Destroy target creature with the same converted mana cost as the sacrificed creature.
56957928 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
Might I just interject that making this a meme is the worst idea in magic in my opinion. It is too overpowered. It encourages cheating it in play. Essentially 99/100 times it is cheated in play instead of hardcast. Not only that, but you essentially win when it comes into play.
74943291 wrote:
82512575 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Make five-color hybrid tribal instant with buyback, kicker, cycling, card draw, token production, a steal effect, alternate casting cost and landfall that embodies the love that your mom and I share.
I think you just killed all chances of my card being elegant. Ardency :1mana::symwu::symbr: Tribal Instant - Soldier You may have target opponent gain control of 3 permanents you control rather than pay ~'s mana cost. As an additional cost to cast ~, choose two creatures you control, and sacrifice the rest. If you control a soldier, you can't sacrifice permanents this turn. Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, instead choose 4 creatures. Kicker You get an emblem with "As long as you control both chosen creatures, they have protection from everything." If ~ was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard until end of turn. Cycling :2mana: When you cycle ~, put two 2/2 Soldier creatures onto the battlefield. Would this EVER fit on a card?~
Aside from a few wording mishaps (should say "each chosen creature" because it's not necessarily two) this is nice. Very simple and elegant. I like the alternate cost a lot, and the kicker goes nicely with the sacrifice. However, the cycling seems a bit powerful (4 power and a card for 3? Cycling is supposed be bad. 8/10 EDIT: Just looked up "ardency". Lol.
58347268 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
58325628 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I'm immortalized too as long as no one deletes this post!
But in the shadow of the great one lurked many who sought to partake of his eternal glory.
Since when am I "many"?
You're a whole damn city.
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Ahem.
58021268 wrote:
Vivisect Sorcery As an additional cost to cast Vivisect, sacrifice a creature. Draw three cards. "For the sake of humanity," the surgeon whispered. The knife had never felt heavier in his hand.
I don't think a world that sacrifices so much would want to stop the making of children .
Vivisect =/= vasectomy
Now I just feel silly.
56287226 wrote:
I read over two hundred webcomics on a regular basis. "Terrible" doesn't even begin to describe me.
70246459 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I think that this is the first wizards-community thread that actually made me laugh out loud. Maraxas, I love you.
IMAGE(http://www.free-smiley-faces.de/free-animated-smileys_Smileys-animiert-kostenlos/free-animated-smiley-love_smiley-herz-animiert-kostenlos_250x250.gif)
58347268 wrote:
batman is a jerk in all of my dreams
mafia is fun so play it
I note that Upwelling specifically says that mana pools don't empty at the end of turns, whereas Omnath doesn't mention turns ending.  Why was this?  Does Omnath not actually preserve green mana across turns; or was this an oversight; or was this done intentionally to fit the ability onto two lines despite the ambiguity?


It says your pool doesn't empty at the end of steps, and the turn ending is the end step. Your mana pool doesn't empty at the end of the end step, so it's still around the next turn.




Basically, Upwelling wasn't errata-ed completely after the big rules changes last year. As CityofAs points out, the reference to "turns" on Upwelling is now redundant. There's no rule anymore that says mana pools empty at end of turns, just at the end of phases and steps.
It's a shame that mana burn was removed.  It would've added more risk with Omnath - what would you risk to have her a certain size?

As I see her, she's too much for the cost.  Why not have as much green floating?  There's no risk at all.
My inner Timmy wants this card.  



Very reasonable card. Its interesting, and tapping out to charge it up could leave you at a serious risk. Unfortunately, I don't think its for me because I don't like the art very much. There's too much contrast and too much detail, which means on the table it'll look like a green splat on a black rectangle. I like cards like Wild Nacatl and Turntimber Ranger, because from a distance you can still tell how cool they look.
n97gf237bca5t.jpg

So, um, did anyone else get a creepy Metroid Prime series flashback?
Nice card. Very strong, and also quite an interesting design. It's basically equivalent to "G: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~" and "Remove a +1/+1 counter from ~: Add G to your mana pool".

The latter we've seen on things like Morselhoarder (er, well, okay, that one's a bit different), but the former is about twice as strong as you normally see that ability.

Reminiscent of Glissa Sunseeker (as in, "green storyline legends with offbeat cards that care about mana in your mana pool").
 


So, um, did anyone else get a creepy Metroid Prime series flashback?


Absolutely.
I note that Upwelling specifically says that mana pools don't empty at the end of turns, whereas Omnath doesn't mention turns ending.  Why was this?  Does Omnath not actually preserve green mana across turns; or was this an oversight; or was this done intentionally to fit the ability onto two lines despite the ambiguity?


It says your pool doesn't empty at the end of steps, and the turn ending is the end step. Your mana pool doesn't empty at the end of the end step, so it's still around the next turn.


Basically, Upwelling wasn't errata-ed completely after the big rules changes last year. As CityofAs points out, the reference to "turns" on Upwelling is now redundant. There's no rule anymore that says mana pools empty at end of turns, just at the end of phases and steps.


Before the M10 rules changes:

300.3. When a phase ends (but not a step), any unused mana left in a player’s mana pool is lost. ...

After the M10 rules changes:

500.4. When a step or phase ends, any unused mana left in a player’s mana pool empties. ...

Neither version of the rule says that mana pools empty when a turn ends, but Upwelling explicitly mentioned turns anyway, and still does after being errataed for the new rules.  So I'm still wondering why Omnath doesn't mention turns.

flavourtastic

Beautiful design, and doesn't seem overpowered (it is fairly easy to kill even with burn in the early game, and a big monster without evasion is not especially frightening in the late game). It requires a lot of skill to correctly manage your mana with it, and I like that. Looks like they're trying to push monogreen in that set (there's an other creature that was spoiled that tends to suggest it).

The rules advisor I am foresees a lot of "No, this is not like a Looming Shade. You cannot respond to the pumping because mana abilities don't use the stack and Omnath's p/t gets adjusted as soon as the mana is in the mana pool."

Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
Not sure where people are getting the "she" from - in the article Doug refers to Omnath as a "he".

Great article Doug, love the creature.

Hate that you tried to justify the removal of manaburn within it.

The card easily could have said that green mana doesn't cause mana burn (just like it says that mana doesn't drain, which is equally "rules" intensive for scrubs).



That wouldn't work, because after I destroy Omnath, that card text would go away, and you'd still burn.  I really don't think they could have made this card in a safe and playable way, without getting rid of mana burn.

I was thinking that this was a terrible card until the end of the article, where I read and remembered that mana burn had gone away.  Now I'm thinking it's a pretty strong card for turn 4 or later.

The rules advisor I am foresees a lot of "No, this is not like a Looming Shade. You cannot respond to the pumping because mana abilities don't use the stack and Omnath's p/t gets adjusted as soon as the mana is in the mana pool."




This.  I'm one of precious few rules nerds at my card shop of choice, so I see myself repeating this a LOT, both to multiple people and to the same people over and over...

It's a shame that mana burn was removed.  It would've added more risk with Omnath - what would you risk to have her a certain size?

As I see her, she's too much for the cost.  Why not have as much green floating?  There's no risk at all.



Well, the risk is that if you tap out just to float the mana, and then they Doom Blade it during combat, then you become "actually" tapped out as soon as you move to the Declare Blockers Step.  Oops.
Not sure where people are getting the "she" from - in the article Doug refers to Omnath as a "he".

Great article Doug, love the creature.

Hate that you tried to justify the removal of manaburn within it.

The card easily could have said that green mana doesn't cause mana burn (just like it says that mana doesn't drain, which is equally "rules" intensive for scrubs).



That wouldn't work, because after I destroy Omnath, that card text would go away, and you'd still burn.  I really don't think they could have made this card in a safe and playable way, without getting rid of mana burn.

I was thinking that this was a terrible card until the end of the article, where I read and remembered that mana burn had gone away.  Now I'm thinking it's a pretty strong card for turn 4 or later.


Oh no! A drawback!

How DARE they.

*eyeroll*
There still is a draw back.
 I don't care that it's monogreen, I am DEFINITELY making an EDH deck around this card, and I'll be damned if I don't.



This.  Talk about mana ramp EDH.  You could power out some silly stuff.  Its a total Timmy deck, but it would surly be silly.
Zendikar's Savage Silhouette and Vines of the Vastwood, and even M10's Regenerate, got a bit more valuable, in my mind.

Oh, and the uncommon Canopy Cover from today's Visual Spoiler update would also look nice enchanting this guy.
LOVE the design. i really like the art, too. this accomplishes what i think is rarely accomplished so well on a card: when you play it, its mechanics will effortlessly make you feel its flavor. when you tap out every turn, it will really feel like he has absorbed your mana, and when you spend it will feel like you're syphoning off the mana from him directly. i feel like exalted accomplished this in that playing exalted creatures makes me feel like i'm really experiencing ritual combat, but this might do an even better job.
"It lets you break a fundamental rule of Magic, letting you pass from phase to phase and turn to turn without having your mana pool deplete itself."

If that hadn't explicitly been in the article I would not have believed that your mana pool doesn't empty when you pass the turn.  Sure the ability bypasses steps and phases...but turns?  no way.

It is not intuitive at all.  Ever since I stated playing magic semi-seriously, in my mind there's been 3 very basic structures to a round in magic; steps, phases, and turns.  This idea is reinforced by the fact that so many cards say "until end of turn," which insinuates that passing a turn is somehow different than passing priority from step to step to phase.

I understand that when the rules state that mana empties as steps end, it covers the passing of turns through the clean-up step.  I need no further explanation here.

However, I know a LOT of the kids at our local shop are NOT going to understand this, and it will just create another moment of "it is this way because the rules say so in a roundabout way," which wizards seems to trying to avoid like the plague as of late.
This idea is reinforced by the fact that so many cards say "until end of turn," which insinuates that passing a turn is somehow different than passing priority from step to step to phase.



i think this is why cards don't say that anymore. you have a history of reading that but newer players won't. they will see "at the beginning of your next end step," which is terribly clumsy and inelegant, but that's not really the point i'm making.

in general i agree with you. it seems like they've made things more confusing rather than less so.
I don't feel like this will ever be seen by the developer's eyes, but whoever designed Omnath, Locus of Mana deserves an award. This is one of the most interesting designs I've seen in a long time. I usually trawl the spoilers with a design perspective for no particular reason. It's just how I think about the cards at first glance -- Then I turn in to Spike.

This card, though, isn't letting the transformation happen. I feel like I'm discovering old cards after just entering the game again. I don't know what to think about this but I love the way that it explores the rules and captures my intrigue.

Thank you for these little gifts.
I really liked this card. Good flavor, good art and is very well playable. They've managed to create a Timmy and Vorthos card at the same time!
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
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57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
This idea is reinforced by the fact that so many cards say "until end of turn," which insinuates that passing a turn is somehow different than passing priority from step to step to phase.

i think this is why cards don't say that anymore. you have a history of reading that but newer players won't. they will see "at the beginning of your next end step," which is terribly clumsy and inelegant, but that's not really the point i'm making.

in general i agree with you. it seems like they've made things more confusing rather than less so.

The phrase "until end of turn" appears on 23 cards in Magic 2010, 36 cards in Zendikar, and on all of the newly revealed Worldwake man-lands.

Ah, you're thinking of "at end of turn" which has been updated to "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" - clumsy and inelegant, as you say.

I agree with you both that his ability isn't entirely intuitive, and I also agree that it seems certain things could have been done differently to make the game's rules more elegant.
So, um, did anyone else get a creepy Metroid Prime series flashback?



I can't tell... Chozo Ghost or Metroid Prime core form? Both sorta resemble Omnath. I see some Dark Samus there too.

This plus a few Protean Hydras  would make a fun Timmy deck. 

i wanna build elfball with this
I have a signed foil walking sponge...
Gee, this is great another fat green beatstick without any evasion. This way, it'll get chumped for 3 turns and then Doom Bladed.

They really need to come up with something interesting for green to do already.

Maybe we can get a few more undercosted elves. Lord knows we don't have enough of them.


LOVE it !!!
The phrase "until end of turn" appears on 23 cards in Magic 2010, 36 cards in Zendikar, and on all of the newly revealed Worldwake man-lands.

Ah, you're thinking of "at end of turn" which has been updated to "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" - clumsy and inelegant, as you say.

I agree with you both that his ability isn't entirely intuitive, and I also agree that it seems certain things could have been done differently to make the game's rules more elegant.



yeah i guess you're right. i probably didn't notice because i'm used to the phrase so my eye slid right over it, while noticing the times it said "beginning of the end step" because it's unusual to my eye. i don't understand why they can say "until end of turn" but not "at end of turn." i know there's a technical explanation but it seems pretty bad that this is the case. very counterintuitive and wordy (and ugly).
If I have nine mana in my pool and then cast this card does it come in as an immediate 6/6 OR does it come in as a 1/1 and give people the chance to bolt it before it balloons?
pretty sure it's instantaneous.
If I have nine mana in my pool and then cast this card does it come in as an immediate 6/6 OR does it come in as a 1/1 and give people the chance to bolt it before it balloons?

There is no point in time where Omath is on the battlefield and does not get the bonus from the green mana in your mana pool. If you have 9 green mana and use 3 of them to cast Omnath, he enters the battlefield as a 7/7 (not 6/6, he's 1/1 and gets +6/+6). 

Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
Omnath is awesome in terms of flvaour as well. It's like he collects the mana which is the reason why it does not empty from your mana pool. I just love it when flavour and gameplay machanics come togeather.
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