DPR King Candidates 2.0

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Furious Kender just made a great suggestion that should net about +10 damage for both of my catch22 builds. I've shuffled some items around on the Cha version so far to include Planestrider Boots so I can apply the auto-damage from Long Night Scion + Ethereal Stride twice per turn.

Should bump the DPR up to 140-142.

Edit:

I've also changed the Con version's itemization significantly, and switch Admixture II to apply the Cold keyword to Eldritch Strike. That allowed me to use a Radiant weapon + 2 piece 'Gifts for the Queen' set to hit harder with the ES on Aegis triggers. Also added the Planestrider Boots and related items to apply Winter Winds twice with that build.  That one should be much closer to the Cha build in damage now.
Furious Kender just made a great suggestion that should net about +10 damage for both of my catch22 builds. I've shuffled some items around on the Cha version so far to include Planestrider Boots so I can apply the auto-damage from Long Night Scion + Ethereal Stride twice per turn.

Should bump the DPR up to 140-142.

Edit:

I've also changed the Con version's itemization significantly, and switch Admixture II to apply the Cold keyword to Eldritch Strike. That allowed me to use a Radiant weapon + 2 piece 'Gifts for the Queen' set to hit harder with the ES on Aegis triggers. Also added the Planestrider Boots and related items to apply Winter Winds twice with that build.  That one should be much closer to the Cha build in damage now.


Hah, with every step your build grows closer to the Arcane Slasher!
With that in mind, increasing your vulnerability abuse will start to impact your Long Night Scion damage, which makes the planestrider boots a bigger impact than you likely expected.  For example, Lasting Frost on eldritch strike applies a +5 damage boost to your Winter Winds slashes, which is yet another +10 damage per turn beyond the basic benefit of the boots.
Just make sure you keep some means of increasing the Ethereal Sidestep teleport distance, or you'll find that you don't have enough of a teleport to split.
Yeah, at present the Cha build is using the Ring of Dimensional Escape, which turns Ethereal Sidestep into a teleport 2. Only room for 1 break there.

I just changed the Con versions boots to Boots of Caiphon, so he won't be using a teleport 2. Instead, he'll be using his Minor on turn 2 (and on until target dies) to shift 1 to trip Hellish Rebuke's secondary.

As things stand, I think the Con version should be putting out > 160, and the Cha version should be > 140.
Wouldn't delhban's bracers do fine with dealing you damage.  Another version is where you get a belt of the slave or something like that which negates the -2 penalty for fighting prone, and simply use one of your teleports to teleport 1 square in the air and take 1d10 falling damage.  You'll fall prone, sure, but if you can then split your teleport into 2 it really helps out on the damage arena.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Wouldn't delhban's bracers do fine with dealing you damage.  Another version is where you get a belt of the slave or something like that which negates the -2 penalty for fighting prone, and simply use one of your teleports to teleport 1 square in the air and take 1d10 falling damage.  You'll fall prone, sure, but if you can then split your teleport into 2 it really helps out on the damage arena.



The bracers could work. Need the correct spelling so I can dig them up in compendium. I've tried 'delhban's', 'delban's', 'delbhan's', etc.

Depending on the mechanic, I could switch those in for ankhmon's bracers, then put the Planestriders back on.

Hrm... looking at it, I use Ankhmon's twice for an average of 5.5 damage each hit, and my Winter Winds should be dealing 12 per teleport. Comes out pretty close. They even vary based on the same events, and by about the same damage.

Should shake out to a net gain of about +1 DPR. I guess the deciding factor will be the specific mechanics. Not a bad suggestion.

Thanks, borg285.
Delbanian Vambraces



Thanks. Looks like I wouldn't be able to trip Hellish Rebuke's secondary on-demand with those. For now, the Boots of Caiphon seem to be the way to go.

The 'teleport up' thing seems like it could work, but I'd wind up having to spend an action to stand back up at some point, or I'd just be teleporting around prone for the rest of the encounter, taking a -2 to hit, and granting CA.

Hrm...

The 'teleport up' thing seems like it could work, but I'd wind up having to spend an action to stand back up at some point, or I'd just be teleporting around prone for the rest of the encounter, taking a -2 to hit, and granting CA.



A Rope of Slave Fighting can remove the penalties for being prone.

The 'teleport up' thing seems like it could work, but I'd wind up having to spend an action to stand back up at some point, or I'd just be teleporting around prone for the rest of the encounter, taking a -2 to hit, and granting CA.



A Rope of Slave Fighting can remove the penalties for being prone.



True, but...

I'd still feel... cheap. Not because of abuse, cheese, etc... just because... I'd be on my back all day.

The 'teleport up' thing seems like it could work, but I'd wind up having to spend an action to stand back up at some point, or I'd just be teleporting around prone for the rest of the encounter, taking a -2 to hit, and granting CA.



A Rope of Slave Fighting can remove the penalties for being prone.



True, but...

I'd still feel... cheap. Not because of abuse, cheese, etc... just because... I'd be on my back all day.


How many other times do people here sacrfice defences for more DPR.  I think it'd be quite funny to see.  His target gets a painful thud every time you land.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'll definitely say this.. the visual is pretty funny.

SMLock disappears in a *poof*-- bad guy screams--SMLock falls out of the air, landing on his back-- bad guy laughs-- SMLock *poofs*-- bad guy screams...
I think the debate is still going on, and Throw and Stab is broken, but the numbers are just to good.

Longtooth Shifter Ranger 1

Hunter Fighting Style, Running Attack
Str 20, Wis 16
Gorebrute Charge

Trident Throw and Stab
Attack: +7 vs AC
Hit: 1d8 + 2

Maul Marauder's Rush
Attack: +9 vs AC
Hit: 2d6 + 13        
breakdown
5 (Str) + 2 (prof) + 1 (charge) + 1 (running attack)
5 (Str) + 3 (Wis) + 2 (shifting) + 3 (gorebrute)

0.6*6.5 + 0.05*10 = 4.4
0.7*20 + 0.05*25 = 15.2
((1-(0.25*0.35)) - (1-(1-0.05)^2))*3.5 + (1-(1-0.05)^2)*6 = 3.4375

DPR (Ch): 4.4 + 15.2 + 3.4375 = 23.0375 (Ch)

we assume we were bloodied and got Shifting up and an unlimited supply of tridents (since we can't afford magical weapon to return to us, and we need something to throw, right?). after throwing it, we switch to twohanded maul as a free action and charge.
Threw up some questions in my Arcane Slasher thread that I'd like resolved before I finish up the dpr calculations for the finalized builds.  Once that's done I'll have final numbers for ya.  Hopefully they'll be high enough to keep me at the top of that list, ne?

That aside, I have been thinking about the issue brought up by nova-level dpr:

So far we've been judging the kings based on the CO block of tofu, but that hasn't been a terribly unreasonable standard due to the assumption that the enemies we face still have hp sufficiently in excess of our damage dealing to make it not a big deal. 

In the case of the Long Night Feycharger, however 3 rounds on target is enough dpr to expect to kill any given monster currently printed (judging by Orcus, not sure Tiamat's hp), neglecting variations in defenses.
In this case, builds that rely on a per-target setup like frost vulnerability, radiant combat advantage, radiant vulnerability, etc. would find themselves having to set up multiple times in a combat, and thereby suffer dpr loss compared to builds whose only setup is popping an encounter or daily stance.

Should we let the two types of build persist as though the issue didn't exist, or should builds with sufficiently high dpr need to account for dpr lost on per-target setup rounds?
I think that the infinite HP block of tofu is our target.  Limited HP of realistic monsters is in the realms of realistic battles where encounters last 3 rounds and DPR is shot by the monster critting on his stun power and so forth.  My opinion is to continue optimizing for infinite DPR even though it makes assumptions.  
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I think the debate is still going on, and Throw and Stab is broken, but the numbers are just to good.

Longtooth Shifter Ranger 1
Hunter Fighting Style, Running Attack
Str 20, Wis 16
Gorebrute Charge

Trident Throw and Stab
Attack: +7 vs AC
Hit: 1d8 + 2

Maul Marauder's Rush
Attack: +9 vs AC
Hit: 2d6 + 13        
breakdown
5 (Str) + 2 (prof) + 1 (charge) + 1 (running attack)
5 (Str) + 3 (Wis) + 2 (shifting) + 3 (gorebrute)

0.6*6.5 + 0.05*10 = 4.4
0.7*20 + 0.05*25 = 15.2
((1-(0.25*0.35)) - (1-(1-0.05)^2))*3.5 + (1-(1-0.05)^2)*6 = 3.4375

DPR (Ch): 4.4 + 15.2 + 3.4375 = 23.0375 (Ch)

we assume we were bloodied and got Shifting up and an unlimited supply of tridents (since we can't afford magical weapon to return to us, and we need something to throw, right?). after throwing it, we switch to twohanded maul as a free action and charge.




Damn, I just done reading through MP2 and put this exact build together... just to come here and see that you already did it :P  Good to see great minds think alike!
It didn't hit me till just now that MP2 created a 23 DPR at level 1 where it was nearly impossible to get over 20 DPR before that.  WOW!!!
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Here's a build snapshot at level 16 using the new Dervish Challenge fighter power for high DPR starting at paragon. Hopefully everything is legal.

Level 16 Half-elf Fighter|Paladin / Champion of Order

Cheese used: 18+@=
DPR: 169.00


Basic premise: Dilettante Eyebite and use it to become invisible to target. Target chooses to either try hitting you (with a massive debuff and miss chance) or hit another ally. Hitting another ally results in 4 follow-up attacks from you - Combat Challenge (Fighter ability, immediate interrupt), In Defense of Order (Champion of Order ability, opportunity attack), and 2 other basic attacks with your off-hand weapon due to Dervish Challenge (salveable). If facing an Elite/Solo, use Certain Justice to make this combo a lot more reliable.

Build
Show

Ability Scores:

Starting array: Str 14 Con 13 Dex 10 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 20
Level 16: Str 18 Con 14 Dex 11 Int 9 Wis 11 Cha 24

Feats:

Heroic: Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique), Pact Initiate, Expertise, Power of Arcana, White Lotus Enervation, Weapon Focus
Paragon: Versatile Master, Arcane Implement Proficiency, Lasting Frost, Mighty Challenge

Powers:  

At-will: Virtuous Strike, Eyebite (dilettante), 1 fighter open
Encounter: Rain of Blows, Trip Up, Certain Justice, Castigating Strike
Daily: Majestic Halo, Dervish Challenge, Unyielding Avalanche
Utility: Pass Forward, Wrath of the Gods, Bless Weapon, None Shall Pass, Mighty Surge

Items:

Main Weapon: +3 frost short sword (17,000 gp)
Off-hand Weapon: +3 frost short sword (17,000 gp)
Torso: +3 armor of durability (21,000 gp)
Head: coif of mindiron (3,400 gp)
Arms: bracers of mighty striking (13,000 gp)
Hands: gloves of ice (9,000 gp)
Waist: waistband of the grappler (17,000 gp)
Neck: +3 timeless locket (21,000 gp)
Feet: boots of eagerness (9,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: salve of power x3 (15,000 gp)
Ring: ring of giants (17,000 gp)
= 159,400 gp


DPR Calculations
Show

DPR assumptions and set up: Divine Challenge on target. Your leader helps you land the first Eyebite, which gets the chain from Power of Arcana and White Lotus Enervation going. Action point for Certain Justice and throw in Dervish Challenge with action from Boots of Eagerness. Since the Certain Justice and further Eyebites should only miss on a 1, use a stored roll from Dice of Auspicious Fortune if you happen to miss.

Eyebite to-hit after 1st round: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (enervation) + 5 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +26

Virtuous Strike to-hit 1st attack: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (tempest technique) + 1 (enervation) + 1 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +23

Virtuous Strike to-hit 2nd-4th attacks: +25, +27, +29 (increase from enervation and power of arcana)

Eyebite damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (weapon focus) + 3 (siberys shard) + 5 (waistband) = +27

Virtuous Strike damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (tempest technique) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (weapon focus) + 3 (siberys shard) + 4 (bracers) + 5 (waistband) = +33

Divine Challenge damage: 13 per round

Total DPR from calculator: 169.00

Once per day, you could jack up DPR to ~210 with Wrath of the Gods and Bless Weapon.

In a team party situation with a Morninglord and a Symbol of Divine Light a level or 2 later, DPR should crack 300 before epic.
Here's a build snapshot at level 16 using the new Dervish Challenge fighter power for high DPR starting at paragon. Hopefully everything is legal.

Level 16 Half-elf Fighter|Paladin / Champion of Order

Cheese used: 18+@=
DPR: 187.04


Basic premise: Dilettante Eyebite and use it to become invisible to target. Target chooses to either try hitting you (with a massive debuff and miss chance) or hit another ally. Hitting another ally results in 4 follow-up attacks from you - Combat Challenge (Fighter ability, immediate interrupt), In Defense of Order (Champion of Order ability, opportunity attack), and 2 other basic attacks with your off-hand weapon due to Dervish Challenge (salveable). If facing an Elite/Solo, use Certain Justice to make this combo a lot more reliable.

Build
Show

Ability Scores:

Starting array: Str 14 Con 13 Dex 10 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 20
Level 16: Str 18 Con 14 Dex 11 Int 9 Wis 11 Cha 24

Feats:

Heroic: Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique), Weapon Focus, Expertise, Power of Arcana, White Lotus Enervation, Arcane Admixture (Virtuous Strike, cold)
Paragon: Versatile Master, Arcane Implement Proficiency, Lasting Frost, Arcane Admixture (Eyebite, cold)

Powers:  

At-will: Virtuous Strike, Eyebite (dilettante), 1 fighter open
Encounter: Rain of Blows, Trip Up, Certain Justice, Castigating Strike
Daily: Majestic Halo, Dervish Challenge, Unyielding Avalanche
Utility: Pass Forward, Wrath of the Gods, Bless Weapon, None Shall Pass, Mighty Surge

Items:

Main Weapon: +3 subtle short sword (17,000 gp)
Off-hand Weapon: +3 subtle short sword (17,000 gp)
Torso: +3 armor of durability (21,000 gp)
Head: coif of mindiron (3,400 gp)
Arms: bracers of mighty striking (13,000 gp)
Hands: gloves of ice (9,000 gp)
Waist: waistband of the grappler (17,000 gp)
Neck: +3 timeless locket (21,000 gp)
Feet: boots of eagerness (9,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: dice of auspicious fortune (9,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: salve of power x3 (15,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: frozen whetstone x10 (1,000 gp)
= 152,400 gp


DPR Calculations
Show

DPR assumptions and set up: Divine Challenge on target. Your leader helps you land the first Eyebite, which gets the chain from Power of Arcana and White Lotus Enervation going. Action point for Certain Justice and throw in Dervish Challenge with action from Boots of Eagerness. Since the Certain Justice and further Eyebites should only miss on a 1, use a stored roll from Dice of Auspicious Fortune if you happen to miss.

Eyebite to-hit after 1st round: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (enervation) + 5 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +26

Virtuous Strike to-hit 1st attack: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (tempest technique) + 1 (enervation) + 1 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +23

Virtuous Strike to-hit 2nd-4th attacks: +25, +27, +29 (increase from enervation and power of arcana)

Eyebite damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 2 (weapon focus) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (frozen whetstone) + 3 (siberys shard) + 3 (subtle) + 5 (waistband) = +32

Virtuous Strike damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (weapon focus) + 2 (tempest technique) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (frozen whetstone) + 3 (siberys shard) + 4 (bracers) + 3 (subtle) + 5 (waistband) = +38

Divine Challenge damage: 9 per round

Total DPR from calculator: 187.04

Once per day, you could jack up DPR to ~230 with Wrath of the Gods and Bless Weapon.

In a team party situation with a Morninglord and a Symbol of Divine Light a level or 2 later, DPR should easily crack 300 before epic.


How much does this build suffer with the fact that you aren't a member of an arcane class for the prerequisites of arcane implement prof.?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Here's a build snapshot at level 16 using the new Dervish Challenge fighter power for high DPR starting at paragon. Hopefully everything is legal.

Level 16 Half-elf Fighter|Paladin / Champion of Order

Cheese used: 18+@=
DPR: 187.04


Basic premise: Dilettante Eyebite and use it to become invisible to target. Target chooses to either try hitting you (with a massive debuff and miss chance) or hit another ally. Hitting another ally results in 4 follow-up attacks from you - Combat Challenge (Fighter ability, immediate interrupt), In Defense of Order (Champion of Order ability, opportunity attack), and 2 other basic attacks with your off-hand weapon due to Dervish Challenge (salveable). If facing an Elite/Solo, use Certain Justice to make this combo a lot more reliable.

Build
Show

Ability Scores:

Starting array: Str 14 Con 13 Dex 10 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 20
Level 16: Str 18 Con 14 Dex 11 Int 9 Wis 11 Cha 24

Feats:

Heroic: Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique), Weapon Focus, Expertise, Power of Arcana, White Lotus Enervation, Arcane Admixture (Virtuous Strike, cold)
Paragon: Versatile Master, Arcane Implement Proficiency, Lasting Frost, Arcane Admixture (Eyebite, cold)

Powers:  

At-will: Virtuous Strike, Eyebite (dilettante), 1 fighter open
Encounter: Rain of Blows, Trip Up, Certain Justice, Castigating Strike
Daily: Majestic Halo, Dervish Challenge, Unyielding Avalanche
Utility: Pass Forward, Wrath of the Gods, Bless Weapon, None Shall Pass, Mighty Surge

Items:

Main Weapon: +3 subtle short sword (17,000 gp)
Off-hand Weapon: +3 subtle short sword (17,000 gp)
Torso: +3 armor of durability (21,000 gp)
Head: coif of mindiron (3,400 gp)
Arms: bracers of mighty striking (13,000 gp)
Hands: gloves of ice (9,000 gp)
Waist: waistband of the grappler (17,000 gp)
Neck: +3 timeless locket (21,000 gp)
Feet: boots of eagerness (9,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: dice of auspicious fortune (9,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: salve of power x3 (15,000 gp)
Wondrous Item: frozen whetstone x10 (1,000 gp)
= 152,400 gp


DPR Calculations
Show

DPR assumptions and set up: Divine Challenge on target. Your leader helps you land the first Eyebite, which gets the chain from Power of Arcana and White Lotus Enervation going. Action point for Certain Justice and throw in Dervish Challenge with action from Boots of Eagerness. Since the Certain Justice and further Eyebites should only miss on a 1, use a stored roll from Dice of Auspicious Fortune if you happen to miss.

Eyebite to-hit after 1st round: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (enervation) + 5 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +26

Virtuous Strike to-hit 1st attack: 8 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (expertise) + 1 (tempest technique) + 1 (enervation) + 1 (power of arcana) + 2 (CA) - 2 (waistband) = +23

Virtuous Strike to-hit 2nd-4th attacks: +25, +27, +29 (increase from enervation and power of arcana)

Eyebite damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (implement) + 2 (weapon focus) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (frozen whetstone) + 3 (siberys shard) + 3 (subtle) + 5 (waistband) = +32

Virtuous Strike damage mods: 7 (abil mod) + 3 (weapon) + 2 (weapon focus) + 2 (tempest technique) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (gloves of ice) + 2 (frozen whetstone) + 3 (siberys shard) + 4 (bracers) + 3 (subtle) + 5 (waistband) = +38

Divine Challenge damage: 9 per round

Total DPR from calculator: 187.04

Once per day, you could jack up DPR to ~230 with Wrath of the Gods and Bless Weapon.

In a team party situation with a Morninglord and a Symbol of Divine Light a level or 2 later, DPR should easily crack 300 before epic.


How much does this build suffer with the fact that you aren't a member of an arcane class for the prerequisites of arcane implement prof.?



Yeah, I need to change that. Could either swap for an MC feat or use Star of Corellon. The opportunity cost would be about 10 DPR, I'd say. I'll try to come up with something better in the meantime.


Yeah, I need to change that. Could either swap for an MC feat or use Star of Corellon. The opportunity cost would be about 10 DPR, I'd say. I'll try to come up with something better in the meantime.


Arcane implement prof., white lotus enervation, Arcane admixture all require being a member of an arcane class.  I'd recommend pact initiate and grab a pact blade.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I thought short swords can be arcane implements as well? RAW, the text from AIP suggest that I can use a short sword as an implement for any arcane power (including Eyebite).
An interesting side note you could add for those that might use it instead of the pure sustained DPR is getting gloves of eldritch admixture to add cold to your attack instead of needing a feat.  Using the power of the gloves should add the cold keyword as it has cold in the list of keywords in the power.  True, it only works for 5 attacks, but if you need eyebite to be cold perhaps you won't face more than 5 monsters in each encounter.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I thought short swords can be arcane implements as well? RAW, the text from AIP suggest that I can use a short sword as an implement for any arcane power (including Eyebite).


They can, though I don't see why you're asking a question. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Updated build by swapping out Weapon Focus for Pact Initiate. New DPR is 178.36.

Re gloves, the hands slot needs to be for Gloves of Ice... it pierces cold resistance, which is a lynchpin of this build's damage.
I would just like to brainstorm things we can opt out for that helps get more damage if they choose to attack us.  It really like the idea of an invisible defender.  It practically stuns them, but your DPR goes down the hole if they simply try and attack you.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
You are using too many daily item powers - salves, dice, whetstones.  You can only replace one miss per encounter with your dice, so you should still take miss percentage into account with your DPR calculations.  You cant use arcane admixture for virtuous strike since it is not an arcane power at the time you choose the feat.
While I love the idea of invisibility from eyebite, I think that white lotus riposte used in conjunction with virtous strike would help ensure you get 3-5 attacks / round.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
You are using too many daily item powers - salves, dice, whetstones.  You can only replace one miss per encounter with your dice, so you should still take miss percentage into account with your DPR calculations.  You cant use arcane admixture for virtuous strike since it is not an arcane power at the time you choose the feat.


I think he only has the whetstones as a backup but never really used, unless he used them in the DPR calculations.  I agree with the dice.  He should take the miss chance into account.  
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Whetstones are 100 gp consumables...?

Regarding the dice, I worked under the assumption that I would only replace a roll if a) Certain Justice misses, or b) Eyebite after 1st round misses. The miss chance is 5%, so unless encounters last more than 20 rounds it should average out to less than one miss per encounter.

In any case, I agree that this build is a bit more defender-like than just straight DPR. Normally monsters wouldn't try to hit invisible creatures, but I guess a metagaming DM would just have the monster make blind swipes anyway, if only to prevent a quad-attack beatdown. If that were the case, yes adding White Lotus Riposte/Master Riposte would make sense.

Good call on Arcane Admixture. I'll switch that out and use frost weapons + weapon focus.
Whetstones are 100 gp consumables...?

Regarding the dice, I worked under the assumption that I would only replace a roll if a) Certain Justice misses, or b) Eyebite after 1st round misses. The miss chance is 5%, so unless encounters last more than 20 rounds it should average out to less than one miss per encounter.

In any case, I agree that this build is a bit more defender-like than just straight DPR. Normally monsters wouldn't try to hit invisible creatures, but I guess a metagaming DM would just have the monster make blind swipes anyway, if only to prevent a quad-attack beatdown. If that were the case, yes adding White Lotus Riposte/Master Riposte would make sense.

Good call on Arcane Admixture. I'll switch that out and use frost weapons + weapon focus.


both whetstones and the dice use up daily item usages.  Since you're refreshing through salves it's common to allocate all daily itme usages to them and none other
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

Don't have books with me right now, though what you're saying makes sense. IIRC you get 2 usages/day at paragon + 1 more per milestone.

I looked at the Compendium and it said nothing about the property being a daily item power. I'm guessing AV2 has specific rules saying all whetstone usages count as dailies?

AV pg 189 says whetstones use a daily item usage.

As per DPR you can safely assume a first attack hits and calculate DPR based on the defence penalty resulting.  You needn't rely on the dice of ausp.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Well, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring with an updated Shifter Charger

lvl 6- 39.13 DPR (5 Ch, Mount) Shifter Ranger Charger

Stats- str 21, wis 17

feats: Gorebrute Charge, Heavy Blade Expertise, Mount, Bastard Sword Proficiency
items: horned helm, War Horse, +1 vanguard dagger, +1 Farbond Bastard Sword
Attacks: Throw and Stab
Throw- +13 vs. AC, 1d10+6
Stab (Marauder's Rush)- +15 vs. AC, 1d10+1d8+1d6+19
Quarry Damage- +1d6
Updated my build - swapped out the Arcane Admixtures for Weapon Focus and Mighty Challenge, and the Subtle weapons for Frost. Got rid of the whetstones and the dice and used the extra cash for a Ring of Giants.

New DPR is 169.00 on the nose.

Not sure if Mighty Challenge gives the best return, since it only bumps up DPR by 4. 
Throw and Stab has been grouped with Twin Strike in the key section.  Please don't take this as a discouragement but as a help to lurkers who use this resource for builds that are compatable with their DM.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Just figured I'd post the numbers for Wil (Revenant(Half-Elf) Avenger/Kensai/Eternal Seeker).

Level 16: 57.109 (26).
  Twin Strike (Half-Elf Soul, Versitile Master), Oath of Enmity the target
  +3 Jagged Double Axe, Radiant Dragonshard, Ring of Giants
  Iron Armbands of Power
  Weapon Focus/Expertise
  Battle Fury Stance
  Painful Oath
  Power Attack
  To Hit: 8(level)+5(str)+3(magic) + 2(prof)+2(expertise)+1(Kensai)-2(Power Attack) = +19 v. AC, roll twice.
      75% chance of hit, 19% chance of crit.
  = 1d10 +(4 Battle Fury) + 3 (enh) + 4 (Kensai) + 4 (Item) + 2 (Focus) + 6 (Power Attack)
  = 1d10 + 23, two attacks.
  DPR: 2*(0.74 * (5.5+23) + 0.19 * (4.5 + 2*3)) = 46.17
  Jagged Crit: 10*.3439 (chance of critting at least once) = 3.439
  Painful Oath: 0.9375*(5(Wis)+3(Radiant shard) = 7.5
  Total DPR: 57.109

A unity avenger, so adjacent allies help DPR at about 3/ally.

Level 30: 112.3(26)
  +6 Rending Double Axe
   Epic radiant Dragonshard, Iron Armbands
   Ring of Giants, Slashing Storm
   Hand of Divine Guidance, Deadly Axe, Deadly Critical
   Punishing Radiance (2.65 DPR)

  To Hit: 15(level)+7(str)+6(magic) + 2(prof)+3(expertise)+1(Kensai)-2(Power Attack) = +32 v. AC, roll twice.
      69.75% chance of hit, 19% chance of crit.  ~90.85% chance of hitting at all each round.
  = 2d10 +(6 Battle Fury) + 6 (enh) + 4 (Kensai) + 6 (Item) + 3 (Focus) + 9 (Power Attack)
  = 2d10 + 34, two attacks.

  BMA DPR: (0.6975 * (11+34+7) + 0.19 * (9 + 2*6 + 3*5.5)) = 43.395

  DPR: 2*(0.6975 * (11+34) + 0.19 * (9 + 2*6+3*5.5)) = 77.025
  Rending Crit: 43.395*.3439 (chance of critting at least once) = 14.9235405
  Painful Oath: 0.9085*(7(Wis)+5(Radiant shard)+10*.3439(Punishing Radiance)) = 14.0263315
  Slashing Storm: 0.9085*(7(Wis)) = 6.3595
  Total DPR: 112.334372

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I need a new key for "LFR allowed even-odd retrain abuse cheese".



Thank you for your candidate.  I'll add it shortly.
What do you mean even-odd.  I'm not famaliar with these LFR rules.  I was under the assumption that Non-RPGA legal material (dragonmarks(mark of Storm...)) was sufficent for LFR requirements.  Please enlighten me.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
What do you mean even-odd.  I'm not famaliar with these LFR rules.  I was under the assumption that Non-RPGA legal material (dragonmarks(mark of Storm...)) was sufficent for LFR requirements.  Please enlighten me.


LFR currently allows you to do a complete retrain every level, including ability scores.

So if you'd normally be a 16/16/13 array, at 4th level you'd be 17/17.  That does no good... so instead you decide to use 17/15/12 (IIRC) array, using the +1s to boost it to 18/16.  Even/Odd cheese.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

What do you mean even-odd.  I'm not famaliar with these LFR rules.  I was under the assumption that Non-RPGA legal material (dragonmarks(mark of Storm...)) was sufficent for LFR requirements.  Please enlighten me.


LFR currently allows you to do a complete retrain every level, including ability scores.

So if you'd normally be a 16/16/13 array, at 4th level you'd be 17/17.  That does no good... so instead you decide to use 17/15/12 (IIRC) array, using the +1s to boost it to 18/16.  Even/Odd cheese.


Most of the builds here don't assume the same build taken from 1-30.  Typically these candidate's levels are taken independantly from eachother.  In the rare case that someone does post a 1-30 build like LDB's stormwarden they've optimized it for all levels and the reader can tweak to taste.  In your case you have more to tweak.  If you post a build that employs this retraining I'm sure the reader can tweak it to his scenario.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Here's another character concept using Eyebite, at level 1.

Level 1 Human Assault Swordmage|Warlock

Cheese used: 8
DPR: 20.85

Str 10 Con 11 Dex 10 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 20

At-will: Eyebite, Eldritch Strike, 1 swordmage open

Feats: Focused Expertise, Weapon Focus

Items: longsword, leather armor

DPR Calculations
Show

Assumptions: You've used your aegis on the target and cursed it. Your target doesn't try to attack you because you're far away (up to 10 squares) and invisible when you hit him with Eyebite.

Eyebite to-hit: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (expertise) = +6

Eldritch Strike to-hit: 5 (abil mod) + 3 (prof) + 1 (expertise) + 2 (invis CA) = +11

Eyebite damage: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (weapon focus) = +6

Eldritch Strike damage: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (versatile) + 1 (weapon focus) = +7

Curse damage: 1d6 per round.

Total DPR: 20.85 
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